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Comments
You love seeding distortion!
Doing this, for my .02 cents is a disservice, first to ones' credibility and secondly to the brand. To read threads like these if I was in the market for a hybrid would give me pause. My thought would be; what are they trying to hide or disguise?
Regarding the Prius in the winter. My sister has one and it performed quite well last winter. She had the car up to my place in the Poconos. I took it out one -10 F morning and it started like it did in 70 f. The battery was all green (except top) just like the night before when we parked it. The mileage in winter is not as good as summer. On that day we drove 60 miles RT to Scranton and barely got 44MPG but we had the heat on pretty high and we were cruising at 70. Not bad,, but I've seen better. The battery is warranted for 150,000 miles/ten years so my sis is not worried, nor should anyone else. I am more concerned about diesel in the cold NE winters as they take a long time to warm up and provide heat.
I have a 2005 Jeep CRD now and the coldest it has been is 29 F. Have had plenty of heat in under two miles.
Thanks for the clarification on the statement by the john1701a.
Does your sister park her Prius in a garage or outside? That would make a difference
It has been explained why diesel costs more than gas, there are three refineries that normally make diesel now making gas. If they had not been converted, then the shoe would be on the other foot.
Very simple solution. You have a circulating heater on a timer. Our trucks & Excursions (all diesel) sit outside year round. It stays 40 below zero for months at a time. I go out start my truck and take off. It is a bit chilly in the cab for the first few minutes. We only get #1 diesel most of the year so gelling is not an issue. How well do you think a hybrid would do if it sat out at 40 below over night? Do they make a circulating heater for them? Anyone leave their hybrid outside over night in extreme cold -30 or colder?
Gary... I want in on that bet, because I am guessing that gas will be a $1.50 by spring too. I intend to use regular in my 330ix even though it calls for premium. I did that in my Audi and Mercedes with no problems.
I hope diesel goes down because I buy 1100 gallons a year for my heat. It was $1.19 3 yrs ago when I bought the house, then 1.59 and now $2.04.
I believe they did a test with the Prius in the Yukon it did quite well. My friend has a house up in Canada 90 miles NW of Montreal. I'll take the Prius up there and provide a report. I don't think my sister will mind as long as I give her the keys to the Bimmer
Why on earth would you do that??? Using Regular fuel in any late model BMW will reduce the fuel economy by more than enough to erase any "savings" gained from using the cheaper fuel.
Best Regards,
Shipo
I recall that article. I don't remember if they left them parked outside in sub-zero temps or not. Not many cars will start if left all night at 40 below without a circulating heater. Most vehicles sold in Alaska come with a cold weather package installed.
I buy 1100 gallons a year for my heat.
High diesel prices will impact heating bills a lot more than vehicle use. I won't use 250 gallons a year for my car. There are a lot of folks that will have a hard time keeping their homes warm this winter. Hopefully we are right about fuel prices.
speaking of diesels & absurd cold weather, i still love em, but there are "issues". a couple winters ago hundreds of TDIs in the northeast had fuel-gelling problems due to a too-small fuel sender/valve/thingy. many owners had to pay hundreds to have their TDIs towed to shops and "thawed out", only to have them refreeze after they were parked on boston streets for the next subzero night.
bunwarmers are mandatory in any diesel car in the northeast. warming up a volksy TDI diesel engine on a -20F commute is problematical , unless it is a long/highway commute.
ps lars, if you ever tailgate me when i'm driving my TDI i hope i end up giving you an extra special SOOT CLOUD. (the longer i don't stand on the go-pedal, the more soot builds up in the catalytic-converter/tailpipe/etc, departing as a cloud the next time i downshift & floor it. this apparently only works with the current dirty diesel - i tested it in CA and it doesn't work with their diesel... so, no soot clouds from our TDIs after 2006...
speaking of ULSD, there's a 90% or 80% rule. what about that other 10% or 20%, where will that be that the old/dirty diesel is still being sold?
Arizona! That is still the Lawless, Wild, Wild West.
Actually the refiners have said they will have 90% converted to ULSD by 6/1/06. Here is the latest on the mandate to ULSD. Manufacturers are poised to deliver diesel cars as soon as the fuel is available at all stations.
ULSD mandate
Even 22 PPM diesel is better than the EU currently. My understanding is that the low sulfur diesel in the EU is as high as 50 PPM. Some countries such as Germany are as low as 10 PPM sulfur. When you consider many parts of the US still sell 500 PPM diesel, we should all breath easier with buses and trucks using ULSD. You can expect many parts of the US to have ULSD available very soon. BP diesel is now at a maximum of 30 PPM in all the US.
Here is the list of ARCO stations in CA that sell ECD-1.
http://ecdiesel.com/documents/ecd-1_retail_list.pdf
On the subject of diesel emissions control, I thing one can look for and expect continual "evolution" and/or constant improvement. If anything it is already in place given that diesel models make up fully 45% of the vehicle fleet in Europe.
It will more than likely follow the same trajectory as unleaded regular fuel emissions control.
I just read an article on comparing diesel buses using ULSD vs CNG. It was quite favorable to ULSD. Most older diesel engines have some modifications to run properly on ULSD.
That's extraordinarily vague, can you elaborate?
P.S. You never did answer the "what will you say?" question. Since a straight switch over to diesel isn't as fast, as quiet, as clean, or as efficient as a "full" hybrid, I just don't see what will make consumers actually choose it.
JOHN
re diesels & "no thinking" going into the decision to buy one consider the local 60 cent price delta, here's some possible"thinking": some drivers might prefer to pay more per gallon of fuel in order to get more mpg, their goal being to minimize fuel imports, not to minimize how much they pay for fuel.
I would say, do a lot of research. Ask yourself is the hybrid premium worth it to you? Is having to wait for a vehicle and then taking what the dealer has to offer satisfactory to you? Are you willing to be an early adopter of the hybrid technology? Are you willing to give up performance & handling for slightly better mileage and emissions? I would then tell them that personally I would not buy a diesel or a hybrid and pay much over the Invoice price. Anything over invoice is immediately money down the toilet. For me the Passat TDI was a exploratory buisiness venture. I wanted to see for myself if I liked the diesel car. I found the Passat wagon still too small for vacation use and too big for running errands. When it gets enough miles I will sell it and probably buy the diesel bug with DSG transmission. Provided I get a good price well under MSRP.
That's what I would tell them.
Now you tell us what you would tell a prospective hybrid buyer. How will you justify the higher cost to own than say a Civic or Corolla?
The Civic however is really a trooper on the longer distances. (I realize this distinction might be a bit esoteric.) So because the Jetta TDI was chosen first, it met the criteria for plain Jane commuting and high fuel mileage, (48-51 mpg) and doubles as a long distance road car (6200 miles R/T has been its longest). The Civic being second, was bought primarily for the plain jane commute, 50 mile R/T, with the caveats of auto transmission and price/performance. However, it is very capable as a long distance traveler. (1500 miles R/T) For the primary reason of a plain jane commute, I could neither justify nor did it make sense to pony up the roughly 7500.00 (HCH)to 12500 Prius) premiums. Of course, why duplicate another ROAD car when I already have one. (at a 5,436 premium) The saved premiums represent a range of 101,000 to 168,000 miles of commuting. Given 13,200 per year this converts (@2.75 per gal) to 7.65 to 12.73 YEARS of commuting!!!
I can assure you that you will pay MSRP or above for that Bug. Now that fuel economy is on everyone's minds, TDIs are selling for OVER list now. I'd suggest you keep your current car. It sounds like you're enjoying it.
While this is one piece of data, I scratch my head a bit, for given 2.73(today's corner store) unleaded supreme 91 octane, I get 26 mpg. If I use the same car (the Z06 Corvette) and just use 2.53 unleaded regular I get 2 mpg less. While I do DEFINITELY feel the difference in performance; for arguments' sake I would agree with you, NO BIG deal!! Sure, .20 cent PER gal cheaper! No doubt about it! But if you do the math, 2.73/26 mpg= 10.5 cents per mile. 2.53/24 mpg= 10.54166 cents per mile for a per mile difference of .0004166 cents per mile. So over 50,000 miles you are saving, yes: $20.83. If I may point out my .02 cent take: I don't see the MASSIVE waste in which you speak.
I would except I worry about it all the time getting scratched in a Parking lot or something. I am trying to keep it as close to new as possible. Get the best price for it. I suppose it will be a year before I can get a decent price on the Bug with diesel and the DSG. The two of us have 4 vehicles we can do without one for a few months.
Claiming inventory will always be low is just denial, fear that someday mass-production will reduce price and make immediate purchases possible.
> Are you willing to be an early adopter of the hybrid technology?
1997 is how many years ago? You cannot milk the "early adopter" excuse anymore.
> Are you willing to give up performance & handling for slightly better mileage and emissions?
Afraid of Camry-Hybrid, eh? It won't require giving up of anything, yet you'll get better mileage and much better emissions.
> I would then tell them that personally I would not buy a diesel or a hybrid and pay much over the Invoice price.
More inventory denial.
> Now you tell us what you would tell a prospective hybrid buyer.
To repeat, they are the INFO-SHEET, the USER-GUIDE, and the TYPE documents listed on the homepage of my website. What else would a consumer want to know that isn't already covered by them?
JOHN
Your anecdotal evidence not withstanding, the science of the matter does not support your assertions. This following link takes one to a post that I made part of the way through a similar discussion:
shipo, "Audi A6" #5862, 28 Sep 2005 5:22 pm
Shortly thereafter another post was made that stated that according to an Audi Service Advisor, it was actually "better" to use a grade of fuel down from Premium even though the car in question carried a Premium fuel recommendation. In response I wrote the following:
A quick rule of thumb, the hotter the environment, inside the combustion chamber or out, the greater the need for Premium in an engine designed for such. Given that most folks think that Premium fuel has more power per gallon and many think that Premium is more volatile, I guess it's not too surprising that many think that the higher grade the fuel the faster it will vaporize. I'm here to tell you that nothing could be further from the truth.
Fact: There is virtually no difference in the BTU or Calorie count in a gallon of gasoline regardless of which grade of fuel you are talking about.
Fact: The reason that Premium is called for in higher compression engines (regardless of whether it's mechanical compression as in a high compression ratio, or whether it's a high net compression ratio due to an external blower) is that Premium fuel is the most stable (non-volatile) of the grades and as such it takes LONGER for the flame front to fully develop.
The ultimate goal for an engine is to smoothly burn the fuel all of the way through as in "Woosh". If your fuel goes "Woosh" for say 95% of the mixture and "bang" for the remaining 5% you have detonation (pinging). Detonation is where a small pocket (or pockets) of "End Gas" (the unburned remnants of the intake charge) spontaneously explodes due to too much heat/pressure in the combustion chamber. A little "bang" is basically harmless, too much "BANG" and things get bent, holed, or otherwise broken. If you have a situation where there is no "Woosh" at all, and only "BANG" instead, your engine will self destruct in a matter of seconds.
Where was I? Oh yes! The goal of an engine is to ignite the intake charge somewhere before Top Dead Center (TDC) at just the precise moment that the fuel starts to burn in a rapidly accelerating fashion so that the moment of peak pressure coincides with the exact point where the piston/connecting rod/crank throw are positioned for maximum mechanical advantage (approximately 15 degrees after TDC). Kind of nice how that works out, the point of maximum pressure pushing against a piston that can make the most mechanical twist out of said pressure.
If the fuel is of a grade that is lower that the optimum called for by the designers of the engine, the flame front will develop too fast due to the greater volatility of the lower grades of fuel, and the peak point of pressure will be too early (press all you want on a piston that is exactly at TDC, it ain't goin' nowheres -- that's an exaggeration, but you get the idea). Not only that but since that peak point of pressure occurs in the very confined space of an as yet very small combustion chamber, the pressures and temperatures rise so fast that detonation is likely.
What modern engines do when their multitude of sensors detect the onset of detonation (indicating either an engine malfunction or more likely lower grade fuel) is that they retard the spark (and valve timing if applicable) so that the flame front starts late enough to realign the peak pressure point with the point of best mechanical advantage. The problem here is that due to the late start that the fuel got on its burn, the combustion temperatures and pressures are lower than what they would be with premium fuel, and as a result, performance and economy both suffer.
The point being, whether it is a Prius, an HCH, a normally aspirated BMW or a turbocharged Audi, using a grade of fuel other what what the designers of the engine specified WILL degrade both performance and economy.
Best Regards,
Shipo
That is absolutely not true.
Just the opposite is the case. Performance actually increases, since the battery-pack can be used more generously without concern about it getting too hot.
It is true that maximum capacity is reduced due to the cold. But since that much is *NEVER* used anyway, it is a complete non-issue.
The nonsense about the engine needing to run more is total misconception. Because it has to run to feed the heater from time to time anyway, the engine uses that resulting motion for charging. So in the winter, you see routinely seeing higher levels rather than lower... without the engine ever having to run just for the sake of the battery-pack.
Don't spread any more false information about winter performance. I am about to begin Winter #6 driving a Prius in Minnesota. The technology has undeniably proven better than traditional vehicles, clearly handling the frigid (down to -20F) conditions without any trouble at all.
JOHN
Someday is not the present. It is a sellers market on the Prius making it less desirable. That goes for Stock, cars or real estate. When someday gets here you can throw in that argument.
1997 is how many years ago? You cannot milk the "early adopter" excuse anymore.
Anytime someone relates a problem with an earlier generation of Prius you correct them, saying the Prius II is an all new hybrid. That makes it two years old and not 8 years old as you are trying to purport.
Afraid of Camry-Hybrid, eh?
What Camry hybrid? Are they out on the market. Remember the HH & RH were over a year behind schedule. Your point is the Camry handling and performance. I just rented a new Camry in Victoria. It was a nice car. Not a performance handling car. Very much like a Chevy Malibu.
More inventory denial.
When I can go to a Toyota dealer and test drive a Prius II, pick the color and options I desire, I will concede that inventory is adequate.
As long as Toyota limits the inventory of the Prius it is a poor choice for buyers. The RX400h & HH seem to be plentiful. I think that was an over sight by Toyota. They believed all those people that put their name on the list to buy them. When they were so high priced many withdrew their names.
What else would a consumer want to know that isn't already covered by them?
Where do I test drive one? What is the TCO compared to other midsized cars? Along with a lot of other good questions. Like why doesn't Toyota make side airbags standard? Why do they have 4 wheel disk brakes for the Prius sold in the EU? Can I order one with decent tires so I don't have to go out and buy a new set first thing?
So your abrupt change to "today" instead is totally inappropriate.
Answer the questions again, but this time in the proper context.
JOHN
Hmmm, I see, your calculations are more precise that those done in controled scientific environments. You da man.
Me? I'm still inclined to believe that the engineers that built my cars know best what type of fuel I should use. Said another way, anyone who presents me with anecdotal evidence that is contrary to established scientific fact has lots of explaining to do before I'll start listening.
Best Regards,
Shipo
In regards to "fun to drive", well, I use my hybrid for my daily commute. I could care less about how "fun to drive" it is when I never hit more than 45 MPH.
In regard to "safer to operate and/or ride in" that is just a car by car decision which has NOTHING to do with what kind of engine is in the vehicle. Safety is not a "diesel/hybrid" issue.
In regard to "least expensive of the two to operate" you can use the Edmunds TCO and find out the estimated cost per mile. My HCH is pretty low, and I have spent $32 in fuel for the month in recent months, and the only service cost I have in about 20,000 miles is $78 for the 15K service at the dealer (I change my own oil.)
So each of your points are questionable at best in any attempt to show the superiority of diesel vehicles over hybrids for the reasons you listed.
I kind of lean in your direction on this one. I read an article that said that Toyota uses Premium in their new V6 engines to get the higher HP rating. Yet in the documentation they say you can use regular. With the electronic ignition it is easy to compensate for a wide variety of fuels and octane ratings. Actually gasoline loses octane rating just sitting in your tank. If your engine is not pinging with regular it may not be a big deal. Accept in your wallet or at the race track.
My friend took his S class when it was near empty and filled it with 87. We drove from Albany NY to Boston, MA. Average speed was 73 and he averaged 24.2 MPG. The engine is the 4.3 I believe (the smaller V8). He even uses regular in his A4 1.8t and he regularly gets 28-31 on the highway. Premium IS a waste at least to us.