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Comments
and speaking of noise, does anyone other than myself consider it a safety problem that the prius & other hybrids can be nearly silent in some city driving... ? imho it should make a little bit of noise, maybe electrically playback some quiet road noise so nearby pedestrians and capybaras can hear it coming?
/eli, posting & watching traffic-cams instead of driving
If the Volvo S40 got EPA 42/49 mpg and gave me the numbers of 44-62 mpg actual range, I'd be on it in a heartbeat.
I think the Jetta TDI does that, and does it much quieter (at least at cruising speeds) than the Prius does.
Yes, the Prius makes no noise when it's shut off at a stoplight. It's a neat parlor trick. It's not what you hear on the highways.
"No one who is SERIOUSLY INTERESTED IN A CAR for many reasons will come to the conclusion that "I love almost everything about this car, but that highway wind noise thing is just too much for me."
If you like the car enough, you will live with a foible or two(just like a marriage.) :lemon:
Have a look:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/auto_technology/1215782.html?page=1&c=y
If you throw some decent tires on the Prius it makes it eerily quiet. I know... I've driven one with after market tires and it is a HUGE difference.
Dbl @60 Prius 73.1
Dbl @60 Jetta 73.9
Full throttle Jetta- 83.2 <<---OUCH!!!!!!!!! :sick:
Full throttle Prius 77.7
ps: the sprinter is huge and gets 25 mpg highway. DIESEL. THAT'S WHAT I'M TALKIN ABOUT!
Topics:
1) Using lower octane fuel in a normally aspirated high compression engine that specifies Premium (BMW 330i).
2) Using higher octane fuel in a normally aspirated low compression engine that specifies Regular (Prius or Honda Civic).
3) Using lower octane fuel in a blown low compression engine that specifies Premium (the aforementioned blown Volvos -- errr, I think they are low compression. Yes, no?).
4) Using lower octane fuel in a blown high compression engine that specifies Premium (VW/Audi 2.0T).
5) Last but not least, the various grades of diesel used in the likes of a TDI style motor (Jetta TDI).
For item #1, using lower octane fuel will reduce both power and economy.
For item #2, using higher octane fuel will, under normal circumstances reduce both power and economy. That having been said, I've heard a number of reports claiming that Honda has routinely designed their engines to take advantage of "what's in the tank". From what I've heard (unverified as of yet), Honda bumps the compression ratio a little and then allows the ignition timing to dynamically adjust to the grade of fuel being pumped into the engine.
For item #3, given that the engine is already low compression and given that at normal highway speeds the blower is in a fairly quiescent state (spinning but not producing any real boost), using lower octane fuel will most likely not hurt the fuel economy, in fact the possibility exists that the fuel efficiency might increase a bit. The down side of course is that the top end of the power curve will be greatly impacted, more so than on almost any other type of engine.
For item #4, this is the worst type of engine to use the lower grades of fuel with. On paper at least, what with a high compression ratio and a blower, this type of engine should be able to extract the absolute greatest benefit from Premium gasoline.
For item #5, diesels break all of the rules. Regardless of boost, compression ratio or the cetane rating of the fuel, these engines run lean, often times very lean and as a result they are uniquely capable of extracting the greatest amount of power from any given quality of fuel with virtually no fancy ignition control electronics at all.
Does that clear things up a bit, or does it just muddy the waters further?
Best Regards,
Shipo
Dbl @60 Jetta 73.9 '''
....
Love that diesel noise!!
Love that diesel torque from 50-80 MPH. I wonder what that decibel difference is at 75 MPH like everyone out here drives.
Pardon me for pointing out an "article of faith" but when Noah constructed the ARK were SUV's roaming the earth?
I love that...they immediately back off!!!
BTW..I think it's great that SUVs get mid 20's low 30's
FEH
HH
Lib CRD
RH
to name a few.
As for higher cetane improving fuel economy, you bet. In my CRD, the difference between using 40 cetane fuel versus 50+ cetane fuel is about a 2.2 mpg improvement with the higher cetane. Tested this over 1800 miles of driving. Did it feel perkier, SOTP says a little. Was the engine quieter and smoother, absolutely. Emissions wise, cannot really tell. Produce nearly no smoke and practically no odor.
As far as tire noise, that contributes a lot to cabin noise. I have large lugged mud tires on my Jeep, and though they're crazy loud, it's a low-rumble, which seems to make them tolerable...
Curiously however in 68,000 miles, I have notice almost NO MPG difference attributable to cetane boost.
I guess your friend has an older 300. Have him add some cetane improver. He might produce less soot and have a quieter engine to boot.
As to the mileage improvement, that was real but I suppose that the engine is still breaking in at 6K miles.
...EU agreed to "dump" their gasoline (already refined) onto the U.S. market to help the U.S. after this disaster. This helped to drive the gas prices down even faster. With about half of all of their LDV's being diesel, they simply did not have any to give/sell to us.
I'm holding out for the Ford Fusion hybrid myself. I believe it will be the first full hybrid sedan that doesn't torture your spine.
If you really enjoy driving, take the S40 for a drive. I think Volvo has the best seats in the business. I would not buy another Ford because of my experience with their dealer network. Long story and not appropriate for this conversation.
Probably better of waiting for the Camry hybrid. I find the Prius seats very comfortable, but I am not tall.. 5'10".
I'm about 6'2, and find that I need to adopt a t-rex like position to get comfortable in the car.
I'd wait for the Camry, but if it's anything like the current Camry (boring and uninspired) I'll pass. The reviews I've read of the Ford all seem to indicate it's somewhat fun to drive.
77.7 dBA full throttle Prius
75.7 dBA full throttle E320 CDI
73.1 dBA @60 mph Prius
71.8 dBA @60 mph E320 CDI
Love that hybrid noise!!
Full throttle 79 for the Oil burner CRD and 77.7 for the Prius
Idle is VERY loud in the CRD @ 59.3 vs 46.9 for the Prius. Better wear your earplugs folks!!!
Prius is better at braking and acceleration. Hybrid Prius... nice piece of machinery!! Gotta love it!!
Prius is nearly twice the price of a Corolla and it is not even as quiet!
42 dBA @ idle Toyota Corolla
46.9 dBA @ idle Toyota Prius
70 dBA @ 70 mph coasting Toyota Corolla
73.1 dBA @ 60 mpg Toyota Prius quote falconone -Better wear your earplugs folks!!! -end
source of Corolla dBA
the Prius has like twice as many features as the best equipped Corolla does. Prius owners LIKE THE GIZMOS! Get it? Can you get gizmos on a Corolla? no. case closed. go compare the Corolla to the Civic.
before you guys go on and on about dBA, is someone gonna point out the percentage of noise that comes from THE TIRES! (Tire noise is a very large component.)
I just read a very interesting article on this same subject. It all has to do with psychology which is why there is the anti-hybrid sentiment. Not all mind you, but most. Since hybrids are currently the darling of the automotive press, other cars/innovations aren’t getting the attention they normally would receive. This angers some people. In addition, hybrid owners in 2006 will get extremely handsome tax credits from the Federal government. They will also be getting tax incentives from some State authorities as well. As an example, an employee at Google will get $5,000 toward a Prius purchase!! Imagine if that person lived in Colorado?? They’d get $5k from Google, another ~3k from Uncle Sam, and another ~3k from Colorado (assuming they had that much tax liability to the state). That’s nearly half the price of a Prius!!! SUV owners in general get quite angry when they see a car that sits four comfortably fill up with 2/3 less gas than they do! Lastly, the last straw has to be the ability to use the HOV lanes with one occupant. Imagine someone in a Jeep Liberty glancing over to the HOV lane while he sees the Prius whiz by!! This is why there is this so called jealousy and anti-hybrid sentiment.
I actually find it quite fascinating!
Very very true about the Prius OEM LRR tires. First thing to do is swap them out for real tires. Night and day. Everytime I drive my sister's car I find it quieter than my Mercedes. Amazing how at 75mph you can have a normal conversation with the radio on and NOT raise your voice. When I had my Liberty we had to shout!! LOL!!!
link title
i think the fact that you draw a line between high-compression/low-compression indicates some level of agreement with my point that it depends on each vehicle/engine/drivetrain. obviously there are lots of fuzzy areas here, lots of variables & functions. can't the manufacturers program their ECM to vary the compression ratio as the designer sees fit? i suppose there is no direct way to measure compression ratio in the engines so the ecm can't really know the compression ratio on each cylinder...
regarding more cetane causing less noise under load, i have noticed less noise & more smoothness at all rpms especially right after a -20F cold-start. that was with the 2003 TDI engine. i haven't tried cetane-boost in our pumpe-dusse 2005 TDI. a theory is that engine noise is a waste of power so that the same engine running more quietly is putting all that dB energy into the crank instead of the air. possibly it is a trivial amount of power & energy for the noise. in the unlikely event that that theory is correct and nontrivial, maybe one could add 100 hp to a cummins turbo diesel if one could get it to run quietly!
as for quakes & seismic scale, i believe that a 7.0 releases more than 10x the energy of a 6.0 - that there are differences between seismic scale and a true logarithmic scale such that it's not exactly exp/log relationship .
premiere falcon, so much WHAT YOU SAID re why some people are ticked off about hybrids. the HOV lane hooey was the last straw alright! ever since that absurdity, i try to save my sulfurous TDI soot clouds especially for the inevitable prius & civic hybrids dawdling in the left lane. as if left-lane-speed-enforcers didn't have enough to be self-righteous about before, now they drive priuses too! aaaaaagh!
At least my CRD has not caught fire, does not crump in the middle of a freeway, get into a state where I cannot shut it off or try to run over a tow truck.
When Toyota put this car together, someone must have forgotten to take his medication. As I mentioned earlier, it is overly complicated like a Rube Goldberg device. Would I drive/buy a hybrid? Yes, but not of the Prius type. I like simple so let me describe to you what I would like to see. Think of a diesel-electric locomotive. Start with a small three cylinder turbo diesel and stick a generator on the back of it. Next, put the traction motors at or near the drive wheels. Add a large capacitor, but no battery pack as is found in the Prius. Nice simple design. The transmission/PSD is eliminated as is most of the software to make this thing run. The capacitor stores electrical energy to give a quick boost to the traction motors when needed. The diesel will run constantly so that the emissions system will be a peak operating temperature/efficiency. The capacitor could be charged by either the generator or by regenerative braking.
http://www.military.com/soldiertech/0,14632,Soldiertech_hybrid,,00.html?ESRC=soldiertech.n- l
Temperature issue on the CRD is a software problem and/or a bad clutch fan, has been fixed. Temperature issue was with coolant temp, not oil and this on early builds. HSD on the road since 2004. Software issues are still a problem. NHTSA is not investigating the CRD, but is looking at the Prius.
LOL
As to the brake binding, overheating, all have been fixed and all in early builds. As for the diesel noise/clatter, so what. Comes with the territory. As for the smell, non-issue. Have never had fumes in the cabin of my CRD except when I follow a stinky gasser.
As to several states not allowing in the CRD or other diesels, that will change once ULSD and the rest of the emissions systems are added.
As to crash tests, not that important to me. So when the software updates are applied, we will see what happens. As to the problems with Prius, read the forum. Also, there is another forum collecting data on software problems with the Prius alone. Not pretty especially for a company that touts "reliability".
FYI there is a LEGAL way to own a wonderful diesel in CA.
You can buy a diesel in CA. Once it has 7500 miles and has been registered by a previous owner it is perfectly legal for a CA resident to buy, register and enjoy diesel torque and fuel economy.
And don't forget, the diesel fuel in CA is already ULSD and has higher cetane so your diesel vehicle in CA is going to perform better and have lower emissions than most non CA areas.
Current diesel owners have enjoyed a nice increase in values of their used vehicles due to the "ban" of diesel vehicles in the CA emissions states. Thank you CA!!
Ahhh...CA...the state that embraced MTBE and fought ethanol...the state that mandated a percentage of electric vehicles and can't even provide reliable electric power to it's residents....CA the state with the highest fuel prices in the US.... :P
It could be VW and BMW that beats GM and Honda to the punch!
In fact many other automobile companies are pursuing what you call the gas equivalent of diesel!
Thankfully this kind of intense competition will make such a vehicle possible sooner rather than later! Just that we dont know when and which company will be the first?
Gotta keep you honest. The Prius did good in the EU tests because it is a superior car to the ones sold in the USA. Standard side air bags and 4 wheel disk brakes. Makes a difference when stopping fast you know.
The EU get all the great diesel cars and Toyota builds a superior Prius to compete. Maybe when the market in the USA is flush with great high mileage diesel cars Toyota will upgrade the US version of the Prius.