lars, a couple years ago i testdrove a dodge sprinter passenger van and might have bought it except for the incredibly loud highway noise! and speaking of noise, does anyone other than myself consider it a safety problem that the prius & other hybrids can be nearly silent in some city driving... ? imho it should make a little bit of noise, maybe electrically playback some quiet road noise so nearby pedestrians and capybaras can hear it coming? /eli, posting & watching traffic-cams instead of driving
"No one who is SERIOUSLY INTERESTED IN A CAR for many reasons will come to the conclusion that "I love almost everything about this car, but that highway wind noise thing is just too much for me."
If you like the car enough, you will live with a foible or two(just like a marriage.) :lemon:
the sprinter road noise was a dealbreaker for me, but there were other dealbreakers too. (wife would never drive a sprinter - she wanted the volvo xc90!). and maybe it wasn't really wind noise that was the problem - i think it was tire noise. i dunno. i've heard that some buyers install aftermarket sound insulation, but the sprinter is expensive enough in the first place - it should have it from the factory. anyway, it was SO loud, and it was the short-wheelbase, non-dual-rear-wheel version. maybe mucho road noise is normal for real trucks. ps: the sprinter is huge and gets 25 mpg highway. DIESEL. THAT'S WHAT I'M TALKIN ABOUT!
Okay, now we seem to be having a divergence in this discussion.
Topics: 1) Using lower octane fuel in a normally aspirated high compression engine that specifies Premium (BMW 330i). 2) Using higher octane fuel in a normally aspirated low compression engine that specifies Regular (Prius or Honda Civic). 3) Using lower octane fuel in a blown low compression engine that specifies Premium (the aforementioned blown Volvos -- errr, I think they are low compression. Yes, no?). 4) Using lower octane fuel in a blown high compression engine that specifies Premium (VW/Audi 2.0T). 5) Last but not least, the various grades of diesel used in the likes of a TDI style motor (Jetta TDI).
For item #1, using lower octane fuel will reduce both power and economy. For item #2, using higher octane fuel will, under normal circumstances reduce both power and economy. That having been said, I've heard a number of reports claiming that Honda has routinely designed their engines to take advantage of "what's in the tank". From what I've heard (unverified as of yet), Honda bumps the compression ratio a little and then allows the ignition timing to dynamically adjust to the grade of fuel being pumped into the engine. For item #3, given that the engine is already low compression and given that at normal highway speeds the blower is in a fairly quiescent state (spinning but not producing any real boost), using lower octane fuel will most likely not hurt the fuel economy, in fact the possibility exists that the fuel efficiency might increase a bit. The down side of course is that the top end of the power curve will be greatly impacted, more so than on almost any other type of engine. For item #4, this is the worst type of engine to use the lower grades of fuel with. On paper at least, what with a high compression ratio and a blower, this type of engine should be able to extract the absolute greatest benefit from Premium gasoline. For item #5, diesels break all of the rules. Regardless of boost, compression ratio or the cetane rating of the fuel, these engines run lean, often times very lean and as a result they are uniquely capable of extracting the greatest amount of power from any given quality of fuel with virtually no fancy ignition control electronics at all.
Does that clear things up a bit, or does it just muddy the waters further?
Not as little as you think. A 7 magnitude earthquake is ten times greatert than a 6. Don't let the difference fool ya. Especially full throttle!!! WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
I think the fact that a SUV (diesel)can indeed get 25 plus mpg, really GALLS a lot of the so called ANTI-suv crowd- sort of akin to a hissy fit or finger nails scraped against a chalk board for those sensitive to noise that can hear the .8 DB between a Prius and a Jetta . One of the time tested mantras have been at worse the destruction of the WORLD or more specifically western civilization, to the ocean's rising, due to the mpg that SUV's get.
Pardon me for pointing out an "article of faith" but when Noah constructed the ARK were SUV's roaming the earth? How much fozzilized fuel was being burned in 5000 or so BC?
Probably still a small difference. I wonder if the diesels would be quieter with better fuel? The Popular Mechanics test took place around the NE where the new fuel is not available. My friend still creates soot clouds when someone follows him too closely in his MB300D.
Does octane matter? For some it really does. For some of the earlier Saturn cars using anything but 87 octane caused performance issues and the combustion chamber getting loaded with carbon.. That may hold for others too.
As for higher cetane improving fuel economy, you bet. In my CRD, the difference between using 40 cetane fuel versus 50+ cetane fuel is about a 2.2 mpg improvement with the higher cetane. Tested this over 1800 miles of driving. Did it feel perkier, SOTP says a little. Was the engine quieter and smoother, absolutely. Emissions wise, cannot really tell. Produce nearly no smoke and practically no odor.
The S40 is a nice car. You ought to trade in your Prius for one. I bet you'd get good $ for your trade. Make sure you get the high performance S40. Quite a sweet ride and get AWD too. This way you can merge in silence and confidence.
Sound pressure readings (decibel) don't show the whole picture...As far as the sound difference, one thing not mentioned in decibel readings is the timbre or quality of the sound. Having never driven a Prius (or any hybrid), I wonder what the Prius sounds like...A gas vehicle may have the same decibel reading as a diesel, but we all know that they sound different. The noise of the Prius may seem more irritating than the noise of the TDI. I would imagine that the electric motor adds it's own whine/noise which might be annoying to some.
As far as tire noise, that contributes a lot to cabin noise. I have large lugged mud tires on my Jeep, and though they're crazy loud, it's a low-rumble, which seems to make them tolerable...
My SOTP's feeling is no. I have run 40 cetane(49 states) 42 cetane (occasionally they deliver better stuff), 45 cetane CA mandated along with less sulfur) and doctored cetane 48 to 51 cetane(primrose 405C) and have no noise difference.
Curiously however in 68,000 miles, I have notice almost NO MPG difference attributable to cetane boost. Or lack there of.
Higher cetane does quiet a diesel engine down quite a bit. There is a significant difference in noise under load that I am able to discern. Higher cetane = quieter.
I guess your friend has an older 300. Have him add some cetane improver. He might produce less soot and have a quieter engine to boot.
You forgot one more reason for lower gas prices...
...EU agreed to "dump" their gasoline (already refined) onto the U.S. market to help the U.S. after this disaster. This helped to drive the gas prices down even faster. With about half of all of their LDV's being diesel, they simply did not have any to give/sell to us.
Usually that is the benchmark that testers use to illustrate the sound level of the cars at a cetain speed. When I owned my Liberty it was very loud and irritating to be in for a long drive. I am sure they've improved it since 2002.
I was unaware of this tidbit. So in reality, gasoline prices are artificially low and falling because of this excess from Europe. You did use the word "dump" did you not? Does that mean they sold this gasoline to us for less than market value?
Actually ..they didn't. They sent a couple of barges (a mere pittance) to hold us over until we could recover. They were quite eager to do this as the spot market at that time was quite high. Their contribution meant absolutely nothing to the current drop in pricing. Pricing will continue to go down. Diesel too.
Probably better of waiting for the Camry hybrid. I find the Prius seats very comfortable, but I am not tall.. 5'10". Whenever I drive my sister's car I favor her seats over my Mercedes (quite firm). It could also be due to my coxyx injury from two years ago on a Segway.
If you really enjoy driving, take the S40 for a drive. I think Volvo has the best seats in the business. I would not buy another Ford because of my experience with their dealer network. Long story and not appropriate for this conversation.
Probably better of waiting for the Camry hybrid. I find the Prius seats very comfortable, but I am not tall.. 5'10".
I'm about 6'2, and find that I need to adopt a t-rex like position to get comfortable in the car.
I'd wait for the Camry, but if it's anything like the current Camry (boring and uninspired) I'll pass. The reviews I've read of the Ford all seem to indicate it's somewhat fun to drive.
quote falconone- Not as little as you think. A 7 magnitude earthquake is ten times greatert than a 6. Don't let the difference fool ya. Especially full throttle!!! -end
77.7 dBA full throttle Prius 75.7 dBA full throttle E320 CDI 73.1 dBA @60 mph Prius 71.8 dBA @60 mph E320 CDI
quote falconone-A little quiet at twice the price. Gotta love the suckers that will buy that!! LOL -end
Prius is nearly twice the price of a Corolla and it is not even as quiet!
42 dBA @ idle Toyota Corolla 46.9 dBA @ idle Toyota Prius 70 dBA @ 70 mph coasting Toyota Corolla 73.1 dBA @ 60 mpg Toyota Prius quote falconone -Better wear your earplugs folks!!! -end
what is it with people who continue to compare the Corolla and thte Prius?
the Prius has like twice as many features as the best equipped Corolla does. Prius owners LIKE THE GIZMOS! Get it? Can you get gizmos on a Corolla? no. case closed. go compare the Corolla to the Civic.
before you guys go on and on about dBA, is someone gonna point out the percentage of noise that comes from THE TIRES! (Tire noise is a very large component.)
Of course...we all know that! People just can't get over the advantages that hybrids have in today's world.
I just read a very interesting article on this same subject. It all has to do with psychology which is why there is the anti-hybrid sentiment. Not all mind you, but most. Since hybrids are currently the darling of the automotive press, other cars/innovations aren’t getting the attention they normally would receive. This angers some people. In addition, hybrid owners in 2006 will get extremely handsome tax credits from the Federal government. They will also be getting tax incentives from some State authorities as well. As an example, an employee at Google will get $5,000 toward a Prius purchase!! Imagine if that person lived in Colorado?? They’d get $5k from Google, another ~3k from Uncle Sam, and another ~3k from Colorado (assuming they had that much tax liability to the state). That’s nearly half the price of a Prius!!! SUV owners in general get quite angry when they see a car that sits four comfortably fill up with 2/3 less gas than they do! Lastly, the last straw has to be the ability to use the HOV lanes with one occupant. Imagine someone in a Jeep Liberty glancing over to the HOV lane while he sees the Prius whiz by!! This is why there is this so called jealousy and anti-hybrid sentiment.
Very very true about the Prius OEM LRR tires. First thing to do is swap them out for real tires. Night and day. Everytime I drive my sister's car I find it quieter than my Mercedes. Amazing how at 75mph you can have a normal conversation with the radio on and NOT raise your voice. When I had my Liberty we had to shout!! LOL!!!
great summary of the various cases we have discussed as well as the theory for each, shipo-dude. you are definitely adding light to the discussion, not mud, thank you! maybe the two of us are a tad more interested in this octane subject than others here! maybe it's time for the moderators to make a "octane octane octane marcia marcia marcia" forum where we can really go to the wall, posting actual equations and detailed data tables and graphs. or not. i think the fact that you draw a line between high-compression/low-compression indicates some level of agreement with my point that it depends on each vehicle/engine/drivetrain. obviously there are lots of fuzzy areas here, lots of variables & functions. can't the manufacturers program their ECM to vary the compression ratio as the designer sees fit? i suppose there is no direct way to measure compression ratio in the engines so the ecm can't really know the compression ratio on each cylinder...
regarding more cetane causing less noise under load, i have noticed less noise & more smoothness at all rpms especially right after a -20F cold-start. that was with the 2003 TDI engine. i haven't tried cetane-boost in our pumpe-dusse 2005 TDI. a theory is that engine noise is a waste of power so that the same engine running more quietly is putting all that dB energy into the crank instead of the air. possibly it is a trivial amount of power & energy for the noise. in the unlikely event that that theory is correct and nontrivial, maybe one could add 100 hp to a cummins turbo diesel if one could get it to run quietly!
as for quakes & seismic scale, i believe that a 7.0 releases more than 10x the energy of a 6.0 - that there are differences between seismic scale and a true logarithmic scale such that it's not exactly exp/log relationship .
premiere falcon, so much WHAT YOU SAID re why some people are ticked off about hybrids. the HOV lane hooey was the last straw alright! ever since that absurdity, i try to save my sulfurous TDI soot clouds especially for the inevitable prius & civic hybrids dawdling in the left lane. as if left-lane-speed-enforcers didn't have enough to be self-righteous about before, now they drive priuses too! aaaaaagh!
Maybe that guy should have had his software updated. I wonder if he passed a Liberty CRD that was on the side of the road waiting for his oil temperature to lower before he could continue!!! LOL
Am I jealous of Prius owners? Hell no. Frankly, I am happy with my CRD. Would I buy a Prius? probably not. It is an expensive Rube Goldberg device. It is simply too complicated and has too many moving parts. I prefer simple.
At least my CRD has not caught fire, does not crump in the middle of a freeway, get into a state where I cannot shut it off or try to run over a tow truck.
When Toyota put this car together, someone must have forgotten to take his medication. As I mentioned earlier, it is overly complicated like a Rube Goldberg device. Would I drive/buy a hybrid? Yes, but not of the Prius type. I like simple so let me describe to you what I would like to see. Think of a diesel-electric locomotive. Start with a small three cylinder turbo diesel and stick a generator on the back of it. Next, put the traction motors at or near the drive wheels. Add a large capacitor, but no battery pack as is found in the Prius. Nice simple design. The transmission/PSD is eliminated as is most of the software to make this thing run. The capacitor stores electrical energy to give a quick boost to the traction motors when needed. The diesel will run constantly so that the emissions system will be a peak operating temperature/efficiency. The capacitor could be charged by either the generator or by regenerative braking.
Kind of hard to pass a Liberty CRD when you are trying to kill a tow truck with a Prius.
Temperature issue on the CRD is a software problem and/or a bad clutch fan, has been fixed. Temperature issue was with coolant temp, not oil and this on early builds. HSD on the road since 2004. Software issues are still a problem. NHTSA is not investigating the CRD, but is looking at the Prius.
I guess that's why the Prius is MORE reliable overall than the Jeep (CR and JD Power). If you read all the complaints in the Jeep CRD forum its quite frightening. Shuddering, overheating, brakes grabbing etc. Then we have the abysmal mileage Consumers Report had with their CRD. 18 overall is pretty lousy. Oh then Popular Mechanics talks about the diesel clatter and stench. Amazing how a few incidents with the Prius are used to make your argument. Then there’s the issue of the crappy brakes in the Jeep. 60-0 in 140 feet??? Gee I hope you’ve got good insurance. Hmm.. then the IIHS.ORG rates the Liberty as MARGINAL in offset crash tests. NOT GOOD!!!! The Prius in European tests did extremely well!! Soooo once all the people have their software updates the Prius will ride into the sunset unabated. Oh.. FYI.. the CRD is BANNED in California, New York, Massachusetts, Vermont, and Maine. Smart folks there. They ban cars that are BAD for the environment. At least I can breath easier.
You are almost as funny as john1701a. CR is the only one who got the low mileage. In the Edmund's forum for both, consumers rated the two with 0.3 points of each other. 140 feet for 4300 lbs. That is quite good. Now let us compare apples to apples, say a CRD against a hybrid Highlander. About the same weight. Found many articles critical of the Highlander/Lexus 400rh braking distances, but no length given. Let us add, 1500 lbs of weight to your Prius and see what happens to braking distance.
As to the brake binding, overheating, all have been fixed and all in early builds. As for the diesel noise/clatter, so what. Comes with the territory. As for the smell, non-issue. Have never had fumes in the cabin of my CRD except when I follow a stinky gasser.
As to several states not allowing in the CRD or other diesels, that will change once ULSD and the rest of the emissions systems are added.
As to crash tests, not that important to me. So when the software updates are applied, we will see what happens. As to the problems with Prius, read the forum. Also, there is another forum collecting data on software problems with the Prius alone. Not pretty especially for a company that touts "reliability".
Oh.. FYI.. the CRD is BANNED in California, New York, Massachusetts, Vermont, and Maine. Smart folks there. They ban cars that are BAD for the environment. At least I can breath easier.
FYI there is a LEGAL way to own a wonderful diesel in CA.
You can buy a diesel in CA. Once it has 7500 miles and has been registered by a previous owner it is perfectly legal for a CA resident to buy, register and enjoy diesel torque and fuel economy.
And don't forget, the diesel fuel in CA is already ULSD and has higher cetane so your diesel vehicle in CA is going to perform better and have lower emissions than most non CA areas.
Current diesel owners have enjoyed a nice increase in values of their used vehicles due to the "ban" of diesel vehicles in the CA emissions states. Thank you CA!!
Ahhh...CA...the state that embraced MTBE and fought ethanol...the state that mandated a percentage of electric vehicles and can't even provide reliable electric power to it's residents....CA the state with the highest fuel prices in the US.... :P
At this point of time it is unknown when the 65mpg hybrid will be available!
It could be VW and BMW that beats GM and Honda to the punch!
In fact many other automobile companies are pursuing what you call the gas equivalent of diesel!
Thankfully this kind of intense competition will make such a vehicle possible sooner rather than later! Just that we dont know when and which company will be the first?
Gotta keep you honest. The Prius did good in the EU tests because it is a superior car to the ones sold in the USA. Standard side air bags and 4 wheel disk brakes. Makes a difference when stopping fast you know.
The EU get all the great diesel cars and Toyota builds a superior Prius to compete. Maybe when the market in the USA is flush with great high mileage diesel cars Toyota will upgrade the US version of the Prius.
falcon#1, diesel cars/jeeps are not banned in boston/MA/VT/etc. only the sale of new (or used with less than 7500 miles) diesel cars is banned. the cars themselves are permitted as long as they are registered in another state, or if they have >7500 miles they can be registered in all 50 states. as for banning cars that are bad for the environment, which do you think is worse for the environment, a ford excursion (gas or diesel) or some similar monster SUV, or a 50 mpg volksy TDI?! clearly the goal is not to ban the new vehicles which pollute most, else they would be targetting other vehicles than the volksy TDIs, Benz CDI, liberty CRD.
Banning new diesel car sales was a coverup by CA and the wannabe states. They have much more serious problems with all forms of shipping. Pollution from one cargo ship is equal to 12,000 VW TDI cars. LA is again at the top of the smog list. That is with very few diesel cars running on good diesel. The ships and trains are not part of the mandate for ULSD. The mandate to ULSD will not make a lick of difference in CA, and especially around the port of Los Angeles.
Comments
and speaking of noise, does anyone other than myself consider it a safety problem that the prius & other hybrids can be nearly silent in some city driving... ? imho it should make a little bit of noise, maybe electrically playback some quiet road noise so nearby pedestrians and capybaras can hear it coming?
/eli, posting & watching traffic-cams instead of driving
If the Volvo S40 got EPA 42/49 mpg and gave me the numbers of 44-62 mpg actual range, I'd be on it in a heartbeat.
I think the Jetta TDI does that, and does it much quieter (at least at cruising speeds) than the Prius does.
Yes, the Prius makes no noise when it's shut off at a stoplight. It's a neat parlor trick. It's not what you hear on the highways.
"No one who is SERIOUSLY INTERESTED IN A CAR for many reasons will come to the conclusion that "I love almost everything about this car, but that highway wind noise thing is just too much for me."
If you like the car enough, you will live with a foible or two(just like a marriage.) :lemon:
Have a look:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/auto_technology/1215782.html?page=1&c=y
If you throw some decent tires on the Prius it makes it eerily quiet. I know... I've driven one with after market tires and it is a HUGE difference.
Dbl @60 Prius 73.1
Dbl @60 Jetta 73.9
Full throttle Jetta- 83.2 <<---OUCH!!!!!!!!! :sick:
Full throttle Prius 77.7
ps: the sprinter is huge and gets 25 mpg highway. DIESEL. THAT'S WHAT I'M TALKIN ABOUT!
Topics:
1) Using lower octane fuel in a normally aspirated high compression engine that specifies Premium (BMW 330i).
2) Using higher octane fuel in a normally aspirated low compression engine that specifies Regular (Prius or Honda Civic).
3) Using lower octane fuel in a blown low compression engine that specifies Premium (the aforementioned blown Volvos -- errr, I think they are low compression. Yes, no?).
4) Using lower octane fuel in a blown high compression engine that specifies Premium (VW/Audi 2.0T).
5) Last but not least, the various grades of diesel used in the likes of a TDI style motor (Jetta TDI).
For item #1, using lower octane fuel will reduce both power and economy.
For item #2, using higher octane fuel will, under normal circumstances reduce both power and economy. That having been said, I've heard a number of reports claiming that Honda has routinely designed their engines to take advantage of "what's in the tank". From what I've heard (unverified as of yet), Honda bumps the compression ratio a little and then allows the ignition timing to dynamically adjust to the grade of fuel being pumped into the engine.
For item #3, given that the engine is already low compression and given that at normal highway speeds the blower is in a fairly quiescent state (spinning but not producing any real boost), using lower octane fuel will most likely not hurt the fuel economy, in fact the possibility exists that the fuel efficiency might increase a bit. The down side of course is that the top end of the power curve will be greatly impacted, more so than on almost any other type of engine.
For item #4, this is the worst type of engine to use the lower grades of fuel with. On paper at least, what with a high compression ratio and a blower, this type of engine should be able to extract the absolute greatest benefit from Premium gasoline.
For item #5, diesels break all of the rules. Regardless of boost, compression ratio or the cetane rating of the fuel, these engines run lean, often times very lean and as a result they are uniquely capable of extracting the greatest amount of power from any given quality of fuel with virtually no fancy ignition control electronics at all.
Does that clear things up a bit, or does it just muddy the waters further?
Best Regards,
Shipo
Dbl @60 Jetta 73.9 '''
....
Love that diesel noise!!
Love that diesel torque from 50-80 MPH. I wonder what that decibel difference is at 75 MPH like everyone out here drives.
Pardon me for pointing out an "article of faith" but when Noah constructed the ARK were SUV's roaming the earth?
I love that...they immediately back off!!!
BTW..I think it's great that SUVs get mid 20's low 30's
FEH
HH
Lib CRD
RH
to name a few.
As for higher cetane improving fuel economy, you bet. In my CRD, the difference between using 40 cetane fuel versus 50+ cetane fuel is about a 2.2 mpg improvement with the higher cetane. Tested this over 1800 miles of driving. Did it feel perkier, SOTP says a little. Was the engine quieter and smoother, absolutely. Emissions wise, cannot really tell. Produce nearly no smoke and practically no odor.
As far as tire noise, that contributes a lot to cabin noise. I have large lugged mud tires on my Jeep, and though they're crazy loud, it's a low-rumble, which seems to make them tolerable...
Curiously however in 68,000 miles, I have notice almost NO MPG difference attributable to cetane boost.
I guess your friend has an older 300. Have him add some cetane improver. He might produce less soot and have a quieter engine to boot.
As to the mileage improvement, that was real but I suppose that the engine is still breaking in at 6K miles.
...EU agreed to "dump" their gasoline (already refined) onto the U.S. market to help the U.S. after this disaster. This helped to drive the gas prices down even faster. With about half of all of their LDV's being diesel, they simply did not have any to give/sell to us.
I'm holding out for the Ford Fusion hybrid myself. I believe it will be the first full hybrid sedan that doesn't torture your spine.
If you really enjoy driving, take the S40 for a drive. I think Volvo has the best seats in the business. I would not buy another Ford because of my experience with their dealer network. Long story and not appropriate for this conversation.
Probably better of waiting for the Camry hybrid. I find the Prius seats very comfortable, but I am not tall.. 5'10".
I'm about 6'2, and find that I need to adopt a t-rex like position to get comfortable in the car.
I'd wait for the Camry, but if it's anything like the current Camry (boring and uninspired) I'll pass. The reviews I've read of the Ford all seem to indicate it's somewhat fun to drive.
77.7 dBA full throttle Prius
75.7 dBA full throttle E320 CDI
73.1 dBA @60 mph Prius
71.8 dBA @60 mph E320 CDI
Love that hybrid noise!!
Full throttle 79 for the Oil burner CRD and 77.7 for the Prius
Idle is VERY loud in the CRD @ 59.3 vs 46.9 for the Prius. Better wear your earplugs folks!!!
Prius is better at braking and acceleration. Hybrid Prius... nice piece of machinery!! Gotta love it!!
Prius is nearly twice the price of a Corolla and it is not even as quiet!
42 dBA @ idle Toyota Corolla
46.9 dBA @ idle Toyota Prius
70 dBA @ 70 mph coasting Toyota Corolla
73.1 dBA @ 60 mpg Toyota Prius quote falconone -Better wear your earplugs folks!!! -end
source of Corolla dBA
the Prius has like twice as many features as the best equipped Corolla does. Prius owners LIKE THE GIZMOS! Get it? Can you get gizmos on a Corolla? no. case closed. go compare the Corolla to the Civic.
before you guys go on and on about dBA, is someone gonna point out the percentage of noise that comes from THE TIRES! (Tire noise is a very large component.)
I just read a very interesting article on this same subject. It all has to do with psychology which is why there is the anti-hybrid sentiment. Not all mind you, but most. Since hybrids are currently the darling of the automotive press, other cars/innovations aren’t getting the attention they normally would receive. This angers some people. In addition, hybrid owners in 2006 will get extremely handsome tax credits from the Federal government. They will also be getting tax incentives from some State authorities as well. As an example, an employee at Google will get $5,000 toward a Prius purchase!! Imagine if that person lived in Colorado?? They’d get $5k from Google, another ~3k from Uncle Sam, and another ~3k from Colorado (assuming they had that much tax liability to the state). That’s nearly half the price of a Prius!!! SUV owners in general get quite angry when they see a car that sits four comfortably fill up with 2/3 less gas than they do! Lastly, the last straw has to be the ability to use the HOV lanes with one occupant. Imagine someone in a Jeep Liberty glancing over to the HOV lane while he sees the Prius whiz by!! This is why there is this so called jealousy and anti-hybrid sentiment.
I actually find it quite fascinating!
Very very true about the Prius OEM LRR tires. First thing to do is swap them out for real tires. Night and day. Everytime I drive my sister's car I find it quieter than my Mercedes. Amazing how at 75mph you can have a normal conversation with the radio on and NOT raise your voice. When I had my Liberty we had to shout!! LOL!!!
link title
i think the fact that you draw a line between high-compression/low-compression indicates some level of agreement with my point that it depends on each vehicle/engine/drivetrain. obviously there are lots of fuzzy areas here, lots of variables & functions. can't the manufacturers program their ECM to vary the compression ratio as the designer sees fit? i suppose there is no direct way to measure compression ratio in the engines so the ecm can't really know the compression ratio on each cylinder...
regarding more cetane causing less noise under load, i have noticed less noise & more smoothness at all rpms especially right after a -20F cold-start. that was with the 2003 TDI engine. i haven't tried cetane-boost in our pumpe-dusse 2005 TDI. a theory is that engine noise is a waste of power so that the same engine running more quietly is putting all that dB energy into the crank instead of the air. possibly it is a trivial amount of power & energy for the noise. in the unlikely event that that theory is correct and nontrivial, maybe one could add 100 hp to a cummins turbo diesel if one could get it to run quietly!
as for quakes & seismic scale, i believe that a 7.0 releases more than 10x the energy of a 6.0 - that there are differences between seismic scale and a true logarithmic scale such that it's not exactly exp/log relationship .
premiere falcon, so much WHAT YOU SAID re why some people are ticked off about hybrids. the HOV lane hooey was the last straw alright! ever since that absurdity, i try to save my sulfurous TDI soot clouds especially for the inevitable prius & civic hybrids dawdling in the left lane. as if left-lane-speed-enforcers didn't have enough to be self-righteous about before, now they drive priuses too! aaaaaagh!
At least my CRD has not caught fire, does not crump in the middle of a freeway, get into a state where I cannot shut it off or try to run over a tow truck.
When Toyota put this car together, someone must have forgotten to take his medication. As I mentioned earlier, it is overly complicated like a Rube Goldberg device. Would I drive/buy a hybrid? Yes, but not of the Prius type. I like simple so let me describe to you what I would like to see. Think of a diesel-electric locomotive. Start with a small three cylinder turbo diesel and stick a generator on the back of it. Next, put the traction motors at or near the drive wheels. Add a large capacitor, but no battery pack as is found in the Prius. Nice simple design. The transmission/PSD is eliminated as is most of the software to make this thing run. The capacitor stores electrical energy to give a quick boost to the traction motors when needed. The diesel will run constantly so that the emissions system will be a peak operating temperature/efficiency. The capacitor could be charged by either the generator or by regenerative braking.
http://www.military.com/soldiertech/0,14632,Soldiertech_hybrid,,00.html?ESRC=soldiertech.n- l
Temperature issue on the CRD is a software problem and/or a bad clutch fan, has been fixed. Temperature issue was with coolant temp, not oil and this on early builds. HSD on the road since 2004. Software issues are still a problem. NHTSA is not investigating the CRD, but is looking at the Prius.
LOL
As to the brake binding, overheating, all have been fixed and all in early builds. As for the diesel noise/clatter, so what. Comes with the territory. As for the smell, non-issue. Have never had fumes in the cabin of my CRD except when I follow a stinky gasser.
As to several states not allowing in the CRD or other diesels, that will change once ULSD and the rest of the emissions systems are added.
As to crash tests, not that important to me. So when the software updates are applied, we will see what happens. As to the problems with Prius, read the forum. Also, there is another forum collecting data on software problems with the Prius alone. Not pretty especially for a company that touts "reliability".
FYI there is a LEGAL way to own a wonderful diesel in CA.
You can buy a diesel in CA. Once it has 7500 miles and has been registered by a previous owner it is perfectly legal for a CA resident to buy, register and enjoy diesel torque and fuel economy.
And don't forget, the diesel fuel in CA is already ULSD and has higher cetane so your diesel vehicle in CA is going to perform better and have lower emissions than most non CA areas.
Current diesel owners have enjoyed a nice increase in values of their used vehicles due to the "ban" of diesel vehicles in the CA emissions states. Thank you CA!!
Ahhh...CA...the state that embraced MTBE and fought ethanol...the state that mandated a percentage of electric vehicles and can't even provide reliable electric power to it's residents....CA the state with the highest fuel prices in the US.... :P
It could be VW and BMW that beats GM and Honda to the punch!
In fact many other automobile companies are pursuing what you call the gas equivalent of diesel!
Thankfully this kind of intense competition will make such a vehicle possible sooner rather than later! Just that we dont know when and which company will be the first?
Gotta keep you honest. The Prius did good in the EU tests because it is a superior car to the ones sold in the USA. Standard side air bags and 4 wheel disk brakes. Makes a difference when stopping fast you know.
The EU get all the great diesel cars and Toyota builds a superior Prius to compete. Maybe when the market in the USA is flush with great high mileage diesel cars Toyota will upgrade the US version of the Prius.