By accessing this website, you acknowledge that Edmunds and its third party business partners may use cookies, pixels, and similar technologies to collect information about you and your interactions with the website as described in our
Privacy Statement, and you agree that your use of the website is subject to our
Visitor Agreement.
Comments
I made no change to "today". We are in the present. Presently as falconone has pointed out buying a VW TDI is as difficult as buying a Prius. I would not recommend either vehicle under those circumstances. I will repeat myself, buying ANY vehicle at MSRP is money down the toilet. If any of the aforementioned vehicles become plentiful to the extent one can bargain on exactly what they want, I say go for it. ULSD coming next year is not in the equation. That is a government problem not mine. Someone that is as biased as yourself about diesel would not buy one if it only had spring water in the exhaust.
The one I cited to you was one that I actually did. 26/24 mpg. Again I hardly see the gross waste etc that you assert. What might be the waste is buying a higher priced performance car and putting in the lower octane fuel. I am ok with one saying it gives one a thrill to save 20.83 to 139 dollars.
Before I forget, the Prius does not have a CVT transmission as you profess. Please look at the link. The article is dated November of this year.
link title
No one in this or any forum knows everything, although you seem to act that way. I am researching the Prius not to buy one but to understand them better. Like every car on the road they have their strong points and their weak points.
Looking quickly at the Forum for Prius owners with problems, they include braking problems and in one case failure, software issues (many for all years and models), transaxle problem(s, surging problems while underway, one controller failure in a 2005, steering/control issues in a 2005, one 2005 that burst into flames and was destroyed while sitting in a parking lot (post #263), electrical failures, auxiliary battery failures, MFD failures. Many of these failures are in 2004 and forward. Many are in the pre-HSD models. The Prius is not the perfect car you would like us to believe it is. There is even a forum to collect data about all the software issues of the Prius.
"Paradise Valley Unified School District #69 – Phoenix, Ariz.
The Paradise Valley Unified School District will demonstrate how a large, suburban school district near Phoenix, Ariz. will retrofit 20 buses with particulate matter filters, fuel 114 with ultra low sulfur diesel and introduce this fuel into an area of the country where it is not currently available."
Well, we DO get SoCal smog from the jet stream, and we also have the "brown cloud" days in the winter, which is in large part due to the dust stirred up by the thousands of homes being built and land being cleared.
We are also the country's fifth largest metro area, and we have a lot more miles of freeway than we had when I moved here almost 10 years ago, so we DO have a lot of vehicles.
We have Interstate 10 coming through, which is full of 18 wheelers most of the time.
We also have a LOT of landscaping companies with lawn mowers, gas powered blowers, etc.
To tackle some clean air issues, we are also installing an electric-driven above-ground "light rail" commuter system to eliminate some of the city buses, up and running by 2009.
So there are a lot of sources of pollution, and we are tackling them a little bit, but running ULSD in the city and school buses would CERTAINLY help.
This is the first year for the CRD in this country, second year for HSD and several years for the other Prius models. Still has software problems that Toyota has yet to iron out. Prius still dying on the highway. Have yet to see a post about a CRD burning to the ground while sitting in a parking lot for several hours. I think people need to look at that forum. I know that there are teething pains for the Jeep CRD, I will admit that, but Prius supporters seem to not want to discuss the fact that there are issues with the Prius even if they are not having problems with their own.
As to the lubricity issue, that is related to how the fuel is being made. Years ago, diesel fuel was oilier than it is now. Diesel fuel has a much drier feel now than it use to. Additives are available to improve diesel fuel lubricity. Even biodiesel as a B2 blend has outstanding lubricity and it is better than that found in present day diesel fuel.
What year was your Liberty? It is classified as a truck, not a car or crossover SUV. The ride is what it is. Try a 2005 Liberty. Much better handling. As for noise, a little from the engine, (I have a CRD) when cold. Once warmed up and underway on the highway, it is quiet. The ride is firm, but it is a truck, not a car. Very little wind noise at 65 mph.
Cannot comment about recall notices. Liberty is not being looked into for crumping while underway by NTHSA.
In the Jeep Liberty CRD Forum, JD Power gives them a 4/5. Overall Consumer Input is 9.1/10. Prius is 9.4/10, not much difference in my book.
in other news, there is a video around the net showing a race between a honda insight & a TDI. it's funny. google it & enjoy.
Lastly... Liberty did marginal in IIHS offset tests. Not the type of vehicle I'd want as my daily driver. Tippy and marginal. Tippy aka rollover propensity.
So, when someone says:
"WOW... real seat of the pants difference. I think when a car cruises on the highway it needs very little horsepower. PREMIUM is indeed a waste."
What you should read is:
"WOW... real seat of the pants difference. I think when a car cruises on the highway it needs very little horsepower. PREMIUM is indeed a waste, in my not so humble opinion."
Then again, after reading all of the misinformation tossed back and forth in this discussion, I shouldn't be too surprised that many folks are misinformed. :-/
Best Regards,
Shipo
It is false economy running regular gas in a higher dollar, higher performance Euro machine specifying unleaded supreme. But each to their own opinion.
It is funny how folks vilify the obvious NO BREAK EVEN point for a hybrid vs gasser, yet want to save 20.83 to 138 dollars over 50,000 miles on a high end sports car by running unleaded regular when it calls for unleaded supreme.
As to rollover, all SUV type vehicles have a greater propensity to rolling over. I drive quite conservatively in my CRD so this is not an issue.
Again, which year was your Liberty?
I have used unleaded regular when premium is recommended and I noticed an IMMEDIATE SOTP difference also. I stated my mpg difference of 2.
Actually, SUV rollovers are not only drivers making mistakes - other vehicles hitting YOU can cause a rollover, even small cars hitting you.
It's just the physical fact that SUVs generally have a higher center of gravity. So the act of just riding in an SUV, driven by ANYONE, is risky to the extent that the vehicle can rollover without any misaction by the driver.
True, the "stereotypical rollover" of SUVs involves drivers overcorrecting for accident avoidance, or more commonly, when they drift off the highway a bit and steer too strongly to get back into their lane.
I have seen SUV rollovers by people who just simply drive them to aggressively and forget they are not like a car.
I took this into account when I bought my Liberty. Getting T-boned is something I am not looking forward to. I have never been T-boned and hope I never am. I am not afraid of the rollover issue as I am afraid of how fast the idiot who hits me will be going when he hits me. Some how I find the additional height comforting so that when I am hit, the impact is lower down on the door instead of the middle of the door.
Recently there was a terrible accident in which a mid-size Buick or Oldsmobile was T-bone by a full size GM pickup (4X2). The door was pushed in over two feet. The frame of the car below the door was intact and barely bent. I would rather have the frame of the vehicle absorb the impact than the door.
Interesting, I thought you said in all your years of driving you never needed good handling to avoid an accident. Or that handling is not an issue that is important in a car. If that is the case an SUV with it's less than great handling characteristics should be just fine for most people. I find that being in a vehicle that is up high I can see further ahead and not get into a situation where quick handling is needed. When in a smaller lower car I find it is more worthwhile to be able to swerve & brake quickly.
Not sure if this has anything to do with the worth of hybrids & diesels.
MY post DID because it was in reference to a Liberty CRD.
Now back to your comment on my "handling" thing.
I never said "handling has nothing to do with accident avoidance."
I said "I myself personally have never needed to steer out of an accident" but I never said the need does not occur for some drivers. In rare instances, it does. But to make a whole decision on which car to buy based on an occurence that is SO UNLIKELY STATISTICALLY to occur to YOU is ignorant.
It occurs More Frequently (the need to steer out of an accident) because ( stereotyping with truth here) SUV drivers as a group think they are invincible because they are driving these big heavy tall vehicles and they get THEMSELVES into trouble more often.
Seeing "further ahead" is another SUV myth. You will not need to be concerned about "avoiding an accident by seeing further ahead" if you make sure you are not driving too close to the car ahead of you in the FIRST place. Find me a person in a small car who had an accident because they could not see ahead of the car immediately in front of them and I will show you a person who was following too closely to being with.....
Ummm, that is both non-scientific and non-verifiable. After all, how do you know how much fuel you actually used between any two given fuel stops? What is displayed on the pump? Nope! Quite simply, you don't know, and if you don’t know how much fuel you started with, there is no way you can calculate your MPG even remotely accurately. The fact is that the amount of fuel you your tank can vary by over a gallon after any given fill-up due to factors such as but not limited to 1) incline or tilt of vehicle, 2) speed at which fuel is delivered, 3) ambient air temperature and humidity, 4) the vagaries of how one fuel pump operates versus any other pump.
Contrast your not noticing any fuel economy differences between different grades of fuel to my documented differences with using one grade of fuel, from one fuel company, pumped from the same pump and driven at the same speeds (or as close to it as possible) over the same course covering a considerable length of time. Over the last 12,000 miles (driven in 18 weeks), I've averaged 21.9 mpg, however, my minimum for any one tank was 19.8 while my maximum was 24.1. So here we have a 4.3 mpg difference with as close to a like for like for like test as is possible.
With the above in mind, how can you in good conscience tell yourself or anybody else for that matter that Premium fuel does not affect fuel economy? You cannot.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Best Regards,
Shipo
While I'm usually in agreement with what you say, you'll lose credibility here pretty fast if you insist that any DC product (Jeep especially) is as reliable as any Toyota product.
I suppose it is all a matter of experience. Maybe I am the exception to the rule. I do not know.
And likewise!
Begs the question... So what.... or meaning...????
The best story is the 76 Charger:
If you are old enough to remember Chrysler products hated the cold damp weather of Fall and Spring in the Northeast.
I dont smoke but I had to carry a hardpack of cigarettes in the center console of the Charger... because..
Stopped at a light in North Jersey at this time of year with my young family in the car. The light would turn green and just as I entered the intersection the engine would stall.. every time..
So I grab the pack of cigs, pop the hood ( in the center of the intersection ), unscrew the wing nut and lift off the air filter, wedge the hard pack into the carburator, run back into the car, start it up, retrace my route, take out the hard pack, reassemble the air filter, close the hood ( while in the middle of the intersection - after the light had changed already ), jump back into the car and wriggle into traffic. It only did that for FOUR years.
But I relented and got the beautiful LHS.. which wouldnt hold a charge on the refrigerant the first summer I had it commuting into NYC every day. 7 times I had it in the shop to get it recharged since it was blowing 99 deg heat in my face all summer. Since I was a supplier to Chrysler then I told them about it during a trip to Auburn Hills and they said 'Oh, tell the shop about the O-ring problem'. Idiots.
But I relented and followed that up with a Concorde... which needed a new tranny at 43K.. which was about normal.
4 Camry's 3 w/ 150K+ miles and just oil, hoses and timing belts. MR2 and Highlander just oil. Civic hatchback just oil. 97 5 spd Escort, just oil and timing belt.
The '86 88 was a lemon and was taken back but the '88 98 lasted 14 yrs.
I might be one who is hard to convince on the reliability of DC products.
My wife's 98 Concorde except for what I have mentioned is perfect. Original trans and Freon. Service trans yearly. Dealer thinks I am nuts, but I over maintain what I own. Concorde has about 45K miles on it. My wife is from Long Island (Green Acres) and drives like a crazy New York person. She is rough on a car.
Do I remember 1976? Yes, but drove Chevy then. Last GM was a 1978 Monte Carlo. Five carbs, cracked body panel welds, one trans rebuild, would not hold an alignment, brake mounting plate failure (rear brakes X 3). Sold it after 18K miles. Never touched GM after that.
Had a Ford Fiesta after that. Would die in the rain. Next a 1981 Isuzu I-Mark. Good car, parts hard to get and they were not cheap. Hard to find good service. Kept that for many years until the distributor pump failed. Could not get it rebuilt and a new one was $1800 sans labor.
Bought a 1985 Dodge Daytona Turbo from my step brother. He had abused the dickens out of it. kept it until 1993. One clutch, one alternator, one water pump, a head gasket. Got the car with 28K on it. Trans blew up at 155K. I had played with the waste gate, overboosted the engine and dropped the trans on the street.
I said hello.
So for example, when it USED to be cost effective, and far simpler, I would take a 89 grade when 87 would have been way adequate. I got something on the order of 1-1.5 mpg better. Now on a TLC that is a HUGE %. But anymore the results are skewed a bit by the seasonal "oxygenation". You have to keep a program anymore to know what is going on. Even at that I buy three fuels now: regular, supreme, diesel # 2 .
Also there is an element of truth to your behavior of buying regular when supreme is specified. I can see that from what I have personally chosen to do on the #2 diesel side. The problem however is unless you really dig around and do the research, there is even less available on the gasser side for "home brew." The problem is exponentially harder in that unleaded regular has a min of 32 "brews" in the USA and virtually no consumer information on it.
On the other hand, diesel 5 each: 1. CA #2 diesel 2. CA #2 diesel-#1 3. 49 states #2 diesel 4. 49 states #2 diesel #1 5. biodiesel 5b. mixes such as B5, B20, B100, etc.
You may want to read this military document on sulfur in diesel being a lubricant.
This created many fuel related problems that resulted from the poor lubricating quality of the low sulfur diesel fuel. Both organo-sulfur compounds and these polar impurities were the ingredients that gave diesel fuel its needed natural lubricating qualities.
http://usapc.army.mil/miscellaneous/Lubricity.doc
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/di_diesels.shtml
Best Regards,
Shipo
Honda or Toyota putting a good diesel passenger car on US soil will help the diesel cause immensely, but then again, they would be competing against their own hybrids.
Dilemma, anyone?
Those are nearly gone since common rail has become more of the norm. Also, metallurgy has improved so much that the extra level of lubrication supposedly provided by the sulfur is not needed. There are other materials available that will improve diesel fuel lubricity, one being biodiesel. I have read numerous articles that have shown that a B2 blend has the same amount if not more of the lubricity you would find in present day diesel fuel.
Most of the new diesels will run on ULSD, including my CRD.