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Comments
Well no, it is equally as obvious clean gasser hybrids are not saving the USA nor ever will; even if hybrids become the dominate % percentage of the passenger vehicle fleet as environmental types dream on.
Why also they ignore that it will take INXS of 30 years for the gasser hybrid to even match the SUV population of 12% of the vehicle fleet is truly beyond me.
If you feel that way about Euro (car) diesels why on earth did you get a Euro (car) GASSER!!!??
The type of engine which lives in the engine compartment ABSOLUTELY has ZERO EFFECT on how a car handles.
That is COMPLETELY ACCURATE.
I don't care what kind of engineering goes into the other aspects of the car, but the type of engine "in itself" has no bearing on handling. "
Dream ON!
I do understand you wish to remain in the dream scape, so lets move on!
If carbon dioxide output from the Prius and a 1900 cc diesel are within a few points of each other, then the diesel is already partially SULEV. Diesels also have fewer unburned HC than gassers.
Once ULSD is nationwide, then things will improve significantly for diesel emissions. The present level of sulfur in the fuel makes particulate and NOx worse. Remove/reduce that sulfur and particulate output decreases significantly and NOx falls too but to a lesser degree.
Without the sulfur present, a catalyst can be used to reduce NOx to much lower levels. Particulate filters are coming to the United States and are being used successfully in Europe.
LDDs (Light Duty Diesels)Diesels will meet 2007 emissions standards for 2007 in the United States. And as far as I have read, well past that too.
As for the cost of adding these emission items, I cannot deny that it will add to the base cost of a car, but it will still be cheaper than buying a hybrid, even if Toyota and Honda are able to cut costs.
As to the price disparity of fuel, that will not last much longer. There are many reports that the price of gas should start to rise again in the not so distant future. Right now the demand for number two fuel oil is high, in part from increased demand for heating oil. I had a diesel many years ago and around this time every year the price of diesel would go up.
The last issue is that gasoline is a one way fuel. You cannot make gasoline from corn, soy, etc. It is either coal or petroleum. You can add some ethanol but no more than E10 in the Prius or other gassers. Nice octane enhancer and adds oxygen, but degrades fuel economy. Biodiesel has lower power output too but to a lesser extent than ethanol. E10 has 96.7% of straight gasoline energy output. B10 has 99% of straight diesel fuel output. B20 has 98.5% output of straight diesel. These are gross output values. Numerous people have run B20 in their CRDs without degradation of fuel economy.
I think you may have stepped into it this time my friend...:D
Okay, bring an Asian diesel to this country and run it on our domestic diesel. I would bet you that those Asian diesels would run as badly as the VW TDI and have similar failure/problem rates. The problem with VW's TDI is not the engine, it is our crappy fuel.
I drive a Jeep Liberty CRD. The engine is made in Italy by V.M. Motori. My CRD runs beautifully because I add cetane improvers to increase the cetane of the fuel to over 50. When I run my CRD on Chevron or Shell diesel without enhancing the cetane, it does not run as well. It is not as smooth and power delivery is not as strong.
I don't think the actual engine has as much to do with the handling as the added weight from batteries & electric motors in the hybrids. My point was that the vehicles that are for sale in the US with diesel engines have far better handling characteristics than the hybrids offered in this country. You don't give a whit about handling. Many of us myself included put that higher on the list than mileage or emissions. Handling to me is the most important aspect of vehicle safety. Waaaay ahead of cruple zones and airbags. Avoidance is very important in NOT having an accident. Neither the Civic hybrid or the Prius are even remotely close to the Jetta in safety or handling.
Like I have said thank your legislative folks for LEAVING diesel OUT in the mid 70's when they went from leaded reg to unleaded regular but DID NOT make the switch from high sulfur #2 diesel to USLD(2006 standard with implementation in probably 2008)
But you have to admit the current evolution of the diesel emissions devices has ZIPPED along vs crawled along for gasser emissions since that time.
My advocation of the higher mileage hybrids is based on the fact that they make great URBAN COMMUTER cars. That's the kind of driving I do about 95% of the time. So I know how well the HCH performs in that setting.
I have recently learned driving tips which will allow me to achieve almost 50 MPG on every tank of gas, in part because I seldom travel more than 50 MPH in the car. MY car is an URBAN COMMUTER vehicle.
In my personal situation, how important do you think "handling" becomes?
(pause while Gary ponders for a second)
That's right, it's almost negligible. The most "handling" I need is when I'm coasting in neutral and I want to take a 90 degree turn onto a sidestreet at about 25 MPH without slowing down so I can coast farther after the turn and save fuel. For that task, I just tell my two kids in the backseat to "hang on" and we take the corner. That's pretty decent, taking a 90 degree turn on a city street and staying in your own lane at 25 MPH.
I cannot imagine what kind of driving you think people DO in this country that "accident avoidance" is or should be such a big part of the car buying decision ?? I'm personally on about my 14th car in 26 years of driving, and I cannot recall one time when I needed "superior handling" to avoid an accident.
What do you think is the percentage of people who have done that - used "superior handling" in their car to avoid an accident which in an inferior handling car could not have been avoided? Same situation, a Prius versus a Passat, in real-world accident avoidance, how many situations do you think the Passat could avoid the accident and the Prius could not? I'd bet that number is so small as to be almost zero.
I think putting such a high value on something that unusual, that rare of an occurance, is far more harmful than caring about how clean a car is for the environment and how you yourself as a consumer can reduce foreign oil dependence by driving a car which uses far less fuel.
For example, weigh these two things: driving a hybrid every day with a .0000001 percent greater chance of not being able to avoid an accident, while at the same time producing FAR LESS POLLUTION and reducing your personal fuel bill, or drive a Passat with a .0000001 percent better chance of steering out of an accident but all the while polluting like a diesel and using more fuel.
People go their WHOLE LIVES without needing to "steer out of an accident" but NO ONE can go 1 mile in any diesel and be as clean as 1 mile in a hybrid.
We're arguing in circles, here.
-juice
On this slalom test, the Passat earned the same score as the Toyota Echo subcompact. Skidpad G results:
0.77 Toyota Echo
0.77 VW Passat
That CANNOT be correct, can it Gary?
But seriously, this whole upscale push is silly, that's where Audi should be. The thing that might kill TDI sales is the darn prices on new VeeDubs, it's getting ridiculous!
How much will a Jetta TDI cost, not the stripped model, but the mid-level model most people will want? $25 grand? $28 maybe?
The Passat C&D tested was $38 grand! They're nuts!
-juice
falconone, you are funny in your vitriol about diesels. also amusing is that you didn't put your money where your mouth is - you did not buy a hybrid! of course, 330xi kicks [non-permissible content removed] on any hybrid out there, as well as all the diesels.
lately the BMW that floats my boat is the new M5, including the new M5 wagon!
in other news, i wonder if driving a prius makes people even dorkier than i felt while driving my 2003 tdi jetta wagon.
Prius 200 lb engine, 200 lb spring supports capability
Passat 300 lb engine, 300 lb spring support capability
no advantage gained....
I have never disagreed with that position. on the Insight, Prius & HCH. IF you have a commute that is long enough to warm up the components of the hybrid to give that optimum mileage. For short trips under 3 miles in an urban setting there is little to be gained by a hybrid. You have always made it clear that handling is of little importants to you. You probably put more miles in a week than I do in most months. My little trips to the store etc won't add up to 50 miles per week. What I do like to do is take drives in the back country from time to time. Mostly two lane winding hilly roads. The Passat TDI is the best car I have driven under those conditions, next to my wife's Porsche 911 & 928.
I could be happy with an electric car for running errands. None exist that are legal on roads in my area. I think the hybrids were developed for people like you that have a long commute in stop & go traffic. They just don't fit the bill for most of my driving. I think cars like the Jetta TDI are better suited for long freeway and highway commutes.
On the contrary, I have pretty much drawn the picture. You might not have tried to connect the dots!!
As to needing to be a chemist, I do not understand that statement.
From my persective, commuting in and out of NYC in a Prius would be dangerous at best, give me a Jetta TDI instead. Please!
Best Regards,
Shipo
Prius 200 lb engine, 200 lb spring supports capability
Passat 300 lb engine, 300 lb spring support capability
no advantage gained.... "
I knew you would eventually come around to my point: engineered to make it seem "seamless"
Not good to bring a knife to a gun fight at high noon
RE: Chemist... I meant concocting a potion to make your diesels run better. All tongue in check. Sorry!!
RE: Chemist... I meant concocting a potion to make your diesels run better. All tongue in check. Sorry!! "
Also Toytota, Honda and others want to have more market share in Europe!!!
So do you ever wonder why Europeans look down on the USA concerning oil consumption? GEEZ they sell us THEIR gas guzzlers and WE EAT EM UP!!??? Look at the mpg for the BMW 330 IX vs the 330 (CTDI aka diesel) then do the math.
In regard to the "Chemist" comment, another thing the taxation authorities have GRAVE concerns about is bio diesel can be "home" how would you say, BREWED!! unleaded reg almost CAN NOT be. SOOOO..... they do not want to encourage situations where folks can skirt the fuel and highway taxations. (does this remind you of the moonshiners??) Trust me bio diesel can be brewed for as little as .42 cents per gal in the back yard "still"
By the way if you need them standard Alloy Wheels.
10/27/05
The Honda Motor Co. has announced that it will be developing diesel engines for light-duty vehicles in the United States. The already-existing diesel engines that Honda has for Europe do not meet emission rules in the US. Honda CEO Takeo Fukui said that the engines will be available "in the near future". So far, Honda Accords are equipped with a 2.2-litre, 4-cylinder turbodiesel in Europe, and Fukui would not say what size engines would be available in the US.
http://www.shortnews.com/shownews.cfm?id=50898
However as an example, I also hesitate as do you, to put numbers to it. Not too long ago folks were bemoaning the run away growth of SUV's (which is 12% of the registered passenger vehicle fleet) This of course has all but faded. It has also disappear with the advent of REAL numbers and percentages seeing the light of day.
It has VERY good reviews from auto magazines and users also.
Currently it is "top used diesel car"
"The TDCi range is exceptional smooth and quiet. The 2.0 fitted in my test car benefits from second generation common rail technology that blends performance and economy.
That means the six-speed 2.0 estate is capable of over 37mpg around town and could top 60mpg if driven carefully. For everyday driving, expect a figure more like 48mpg"
http://www.tiscali.co.uk/motoring/diesel/diesel_focusestate.html
Why not US?
Now if DC, Ford, GM, or any Asian manufacturer brought in diesels, the American buyer would snap them up in a heart beat. DC hardly advertised the CRD at all. They were just testing the waters. If GM brought over their Opel diesels or BMW brought over their diesels, they would sell very quickly.
quote falconone -Well just in one segment (the Prius) has sold more than ALL the diesel cars combined. I see that for the next few years. Americans just don't like diesels. Only a few...(i.e. participants here).-end
The report shows that hybrids, which accounted for 0.5 percent of the U.S. market in 2004, are expected to increase to 3.5 percent market share by 2012, while diesels are expected to grow from 3 percent market share in 2004 to 7.5 percent
falconone would have you believe that 0.5% is a larger percentage than 7.5% :surprise:
Here we go with the fuzzy funny math again.... geezzzzzzzzz
So given the reports' estimate, 8 years to grow 3% or .375% avg per year growth: (woo hoo) to grow to the 12% (suv passenger vehicle fleet population) hybrids will take 32 years. WOO HOO can't wait!!
Sure, I've seen diesels at NASCAR. Diesel engines are part of the Craftsman Truck Series. Go Power Stroke! Which team do you like?
Did you think there were no diesels in NASCAR?
Talk about environmental abuse. Anyone who frequents those events is likely to be heading for cancer in their distant future.
Any of you live near a track?
anyway, i think diesels kick [non-permissible content removed] on hybrids, because i'm into HIGHWAY CRUISING instead of city traffic. but with regard to handling i say it's theoretically/optimally advantage HYBRID when it comes to the extra weight of diesel(engine) or batteries(hybrid). that's because the hybrid designers can put the batteries in an optimal place if they want to balance weight distribution. the extra diesel engine weight has to be basically above the front or rear axle. i sure doubt the prius designers designed that car to optimize handling and doubt that any of the available hybrids were so designed.
and as far as available hybrids go, i doubt they handle better than my passat TDI sedan or even a boaty benz E320 diesel. forget jetta, they handle like crap. i think beetle or golf handle better than jetta.
accord hybrid vs passat TDI , now that might be an interesting handling comparison, maybe an even match - what are the slalom times compared between them two cars, for example? cheers...
That's my point, and it's completely accurate.
As far as hybrids versus diesels in handling, I'm sure the high-end diesels DO handle better, but not because there is a diesel engine versus a gas/hybrid engine -there are other factors that DO NOT INVOLVE the engine type....
Handling in itself is overrated anyway. I got over the "rush" of taking a 55 mph corner at 85 mph about the same time I had kids.
Environment friendly vehicle for those who think handling is overrated
Horse and wagon is even better than hybrid or diesel. Low greenhouse gas emissions, no petroleum use, horse racing (no cancer risk) i/o NASCAR for those paranoid enough to think NASCAR causes cancer!
I would agree with the above. If anything, given same model ie BMW 330 IX vs 330 (D)I'd say the engineering would indicate a different treatment for the diesel engine vs the gasser.
In so far as gasser Civic vs Prius hybrid HANDLING, my sotp meter puts the gasser Civic ahead of the hybrid in handling.:) On one level (which is not important to some) this is a glaring deficiencyh given one costs 2x the other (12500 vs 25,000) It would be interesting to compare and contrast the stats to see if the SOTP experiences matches the numbers.
One does not have to give up the "rush" of handling to have kids!
( Hint: has to do with a certain poison.... )
"But "green" fuel is not part of the picture at NASCAR races. Using "The Official Fuel of NASCAR," also known as high-octane "110 Leaded Racing Gasoline," as many as 50 drivers spin around 40 major tracks (and an unknown number of lesser venues). Each track averages 10 250- to 500-mile races per week in the summer, and the average race lasts two hours. These figures do not count practice runs.
According to the radio show Living on Earth, "The Environmental Protection Agency says the form of lead used in gasoline, alkyl lead, can cause neurological damage, mood swings and memory loss at very low levels. Children are especially vulnerable. A report EPA drafted five years ago says lead particles could remain airborne around race tracks and spectators and residents nearby might be at risk."
Frank O'Donnell, president of Clean Air Watch, says that "government is asleep at the switch" when it comes to regulating use of leaded gas by NASCAR. In a letter to NASCAR last January, O'Donnell wrote, "By permitting the continued use of lead, your organization may be putting millions of spectators and nearby residents at unnecessary risk of suffering serious health effects Even low levels of lead damage the brain and nerves in fetuses and young children, resulting in learning deficits and lowered IQ."