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What should GM do with Hummer

An open letter to TATA. Mahindra is coming with a little diesel. Ford killed the Ranger and now we wait for F100 or something. TATA should buy the Shreveport plant with some cash and an IOU backed by future Shreveport profits.

That is, after a good due diligence review of the plant and employees with good engineers, business types, and some old American gear heads and busted knuckles types.

Just when the roads, bridges, floods, and earthquakes seem to fill the news, everyone is running to little econ-boxes. Those and chrome wont get you home. Some old timers still like long strokes with torque, body on frame, shocks and springs (two different assemblies). Not waiting for a DI V6 nor a small diesel redesigned to fit the vehicle (it should be the other way around).

Instead of H3x H3This H3That, the business model should have provided for, what I think are the two main H3 buyers, rock crawlers and grocery getters who want a capable vehicle to get them home, fit in the garage, nice turning radius, and you get the message.

Even Petersen's staff, I believe, have given up on IFS. Our Blue Beauty with it's aluminum front differential, will probably stay in the latter category.

As such, knowing that a truck that tows should not go higher than a 3.73 gear, what would that or 3.55 gearing do for on the road mileage. What if we except double nickles again (I know, painful to try and do a 1300 mile non-stopper at 55). What would the city and highway mileage be. As a reference our previous vehicle, 2005 CRD, weighed about the same, 3.73 gears, (yes I know diesel torque, but compare torque and hp numbers) and for a few miles before everything went south was fine-hills meant nothing, but hard seats like a lot of new vehicles, and a little too small. The H3 has been great except for those rock crawling gears.

Would the business model be able to build both an H3 with either IFS or SFA? What about different gearing?

Why isn't the Colorado better, we would have bought one, what's up with its' turning radius compared to the H3. And why does the news show colorado/canyons being used over there. Are we buying them and shipping them over as part of our involvement expense. Kill off a small truck and concentrate on Hummers? Fix the twins and build both the twins and Hummers. Don't even want an H3T. No way. Don't think rock crawlers do either.
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Comments

  • aspesisteveaspesisteve Posts: 833
    your trying to justify the Hummer's existence based on being prepared for a natural disaster?

    You'd buy one for that?

    I mean some people will justify the big gas guzzling SUV 4x4 for the one or two family trips per year which I think is quite a stretch. But you would buy a Hummer to be ready for the next hurricane Katrina?

    not sure I can buy into that logic

    Pesonally I would like to think the Hummer's days are over. Cept maybe for use by the military.
  • Not trying to justify the H3. Afterall, I am t_o_d, we have had econoboxes that weren't much better than the H3. The post was a suggestion for anybody with deeper pockets than us. If Ford had spent some money on the ranger, it would've been a no brainer (autoblog has asked and asked).

    Matter of fact if people dump the threes and some more money blows my way, there will be another three. SFA?, electric supercharger for a little boost? I never said being prepared for a natural disaster, else I would join the HOPE program. No, just disgusted with marketing misfires - marketing misfires, a book title.

    Sometimes what goes up comes down. Months/years ago, my post question why a house in the suburbs - what are you afraid of in the city/apartments/whatever. No suburbs-no need for cars. Also, why did gm and ford and oil or who else dug up the streetcars and interurbans. What do you (rhetorical and not addressed to specific you) do with your yards, spray chemicals, kill every living thing that is not grass, do you have a nice sized back yard that is a garden for critters of the air, land, and soil. Do you watch honey bees on your herbs, inside your okra blossoms, and on and on.

    I, like a lot of people, have accepted the doors and gates of life permitted us by those who believe money makes the world go around (and they want yours).

    So, house in the suburbs, now a metroplex, malibu that gets 23-26 to 30-36 highway - better than all our prior econoboxes. And an H3 to enjoy for our tired old bodies. Just wanted a prebuilt H3 for a suburban getter with a little better highway mileage. I bet cruising at 55mph in our three will easily be above 20mpg, how much don't know-but at 42 mph with the torque converter locked up in fourth gear the engine is just about twice plus idle-which is probably max mpg's. That's what is bad with 4.56 gears when you don't crawl rocks.

    Our H3 is a keeper. And like I told the hosts when we went from the CRD to the H3, maybe someday better_half will let me turn it into our beater. Better yet, would gladly pick up a steal from someone's trade-in.

    No offense, no agenda, have admitted being in RVN '66 '67, a blue person in a red state. Have posted Peace on Earth - No more war, and have wished the Hosts a Happy Thanksgiving. Posted late last summer that we have spent our treasury. America, anybody can think and believe or not believe anyway they wish or can they.
  • smu1976smu1976 Posts: 110
    H2 is one fine ride, drove one for 6 days on Hertz points in Colorado in March
    If you have not driven one, don't rip, the vehicle is the smoothest truck I have ever rode in. The wheels are way pushed out to the ends (not an Avalanche).
    The seats are like lazy boys with heaters for back and butt.
    Every option, sits seven people.
    Waiting for gas to hit $4.00 a gallon, then the American classic panic, then get a 2007 with less than 10k miles. Hummer has the best certified warranty PERIOD.
    6 years 100K, same as new, 4 years 50K when new. No repairs out of pocket, I like that. I drive 5-7K miles a year, haul a trailer, like the size, suburban are dressed up one doesn't fit in garage. Wish you could switch to 2 wheel drive for highway, get that mileage over 15 on highway. These people getting 9 are flooring this 350 way to much. City yes, highway no. Now for the Green Crowd, Hummer H2 has over a dozen vehicles that pollute more, including VW diesel SUV and two Mercedes SUV's (smaller and can't pull as much and diesel fuel is more expensive in the States. Then all the sports cars, two seaters, Vettes, Vipers, Mustangs with 400-600 hp? Then the hollywood Prius, whose LEAD battery which Toyota buys 100 tons of annually has caused more damage in England at the plant that the United States uses the area (barren for 100 miles of any life) for space landing practice. Remember, birth to death of a vehicle is pollution, not just your daily gas mileage (how we are so easily mislead, pounds and pounds of LEAD?) Get a cheap 4 cylinder no lead batteries (so you show your saving the earth from our little spot in the globe here in the USA). Scion, Honda Fit, then your doing good and saving about 7-10 grand over your LEAD car. Electric (coal makes electricity, most polluting thing out there except the number one polluter of the globe, COW FARTS). Smart Car, looks good, like to see some safety results from the Government, not the manufacturer. Hummer H2, got to get one for the farm, get 10 years out of it., 5 of them bumper to bumper covered. :shades:
  • aspesisteveaspesisteve Posts: 833
    "H2 is one fine ride, drove one for 6 days on Hertz points in Colorado in March
    If you have not driven one, don't rip, the vehicle is the smoothest truck I have ever rode in"

    i don't think anyone ripping on the H2 is complaining about the comfort or smoothnest of the truck, it has more to do with size. I don't need to drive the beast to understand the footprint of this vehicle.

    fortunately sales of the H2 are so down that GM will likely put the kabosh on it.
    you'll have no problem picking up a used one real cheap.
  • smu1976smu1976 Posts: 110
    The footprint is quite small for towing 8000l bs? Do you know of any vehicle with smaller length or width that can pull this weight. This is nearly 20 inches less in length than my Suburban, and 1.8 inches wider. Funny the "hate" for SUV's, but a new 500 HP Mustang is all the rage.
    As far as what GM does with Hummer, the topic here, one, American General still makes them, yes even the H2. I would say they will go back to the military market only as their other AM General vehicles have done numerous times over history (JEEP). Try to find a 63 civilian Jeep? American Motors sold Jeep to Chrysler and American General Military division went to GM.
    Time to stick a hole in Alaska and tap that 20 year supply, sacrifice an owl or a few Caribou one before we loose to many Human lives and further bankrupting companie and households. Also Ethanal, or "fill it up with Ethyl in my day" (just alcohol from corn, has shown that the extra pesticides and run off has a high price to pay also). Quite frankly, there is no free energy or fuel, the price of gas will stabilize in the high 3 buck range. The U.S. at least should bluff that they are going to drill to shake the market. Think of the deals cut and price guarantees from Mexico and Canada, if you don't cut us off for 20 years? They would be at the table for lunch tomorrow. "Hybrids are the answer", and for MPG alone, they are, but for polluting our globe you have to take birth to death of an object or vehicle. Lead batteries are absolutely polluting the earth more with a Prius than a Hummer ever will (I do think Toyota make a fine car and truck too), electricity comes from coal, the most unclean source of power there is, so what is the answer? I don't know. Drive conservatively, don't waste trips, carpool if available. I drive between 7-8K a year, so a 12 month old Hummer will last me with bumper to bumper warranty until 2012-13, which are now buy it now on ebay for about the high thirties, 20 less than MSRP. I'll spend 11K over the next 5 years on gas at 12 mpg, Add in zero repair cost except wear and tear being a certified vehicle. Can't tow two horses with a Prius or anything hybrid, this is for the city folk and I can understand the distain for a Hummer or calling it a beast with anger in your words son, for one of these with 22 inch chrome wheels that are just for show, but arguably, the Prius is just the same, one trying to brag about being "green", maybe with some training in acting and the theatre, but nothing in engineering department. Toyota buys 100 tons of lead in England and there is not a plant or animal now within 100 miles of the facility, 14 years ago it was lush green. The U.S. now uses part of the land for space vehicle practicing site, for it is so barren, yet not sandy.
  • "Toyota buys 100 tons of lead in England and there is not a plant or animal now within 100 miles of the facility, 14 years ago it was lush green. The U.S. now uses part of the land for space vehicle practicing site, for it is so barren, yet not sandy."

    Again with lead and nasa, do you mean 'bury' instead of buy?

    Sat in 2's at the dealership, never rode in one. Maybe should rent one and enjoy it while one can.

    No one posted about South Africa or Australia. Another forum linked the 06/05/08 story from the UK about "...TATA. Mahindra..".

    Why concentrate on H3's, labor health negotiations cost reductions at the general, worked in factories (even piece rate and understand time rolling), on tv shots of auto factories never seem to see anybody sweating their butts off to keep up with line speed. Knew people decades ago that worked at Lordstown and a ford location. Agree that tired old bodies can be worn out, but also believe Edmunds about inconsisitent build quality. Parts suppliers, quality control, and bean counters. But, why do H3's have to get the left side of the vehicles fixed after purchase to match the right side. Blue Beauty is still the way she left the factory -assume the torsion bars and rear springs could be adjusted, but don't care, runs good and tires are running true). One trip to dealership for that plastic push pin for the leather seat cover and soon to be two years of ownership. Other issues have been posted elsewhere.

    If we had a true triangular business, (and what about our founding fathers triangular government-which we no longer have) business would build a vehicle with people paying msrp to buy; dealers, factories, and unions were friendly; and here's a rub - union forman and concerned union employees would have "talks" with problematic employees/members if build issues showed up (shouldn't be any more of the old line games and purposeful vandalism). Unions would be respected to keep problems from being passed on to the public. A true interdependent system of safeguards.

    That's why TATA and due diligence, build it and they will come. Lots of people want that old jeep with flat metal fenders. Renegotiate with the new employees/workers on the modern automated lines and build it good. Not waiting for a DI V6 - once read on the oil forum (true?) about fuel dilution of the oil on some UOA's. The old 200hp v6 in our '04 malibu is just fine (but not trouble free) and returns good performance and mpg.

    Distribution, part of the buy out would be a deal to use Hummer's current GM dealership locations - no need to build a marketing system. Just cut out all the bs and get back to the idea of work and quality...

    Is it as the general states, the sheets on the bed with big oil are going to be split. Ideally, this day should never have been, but it's the cards from their deck that were dealt to us. Is all this moot, and city life and electric people movers are here, and if so how soon for complete transition. Shut down all the plants but people movers right now. Dig up all the malls, build medium sized cities on non-arable land and farm the rest.
  • Just saw a post at a hummer forum with a link to fast lane statement about the Hummer brand and world wide acceptance in places with higher fuel costs. Should've seen it before my last post, but the post is valid as posted.
  • aspesisteveaspesisteve Posts: 833
    i don't see people towing 8,000 lbs with their Hummer

    that's probably why the vehicle is going to be taken out to pasture and shot

    If the car is as great as you think it is, then why hasn't it done well?
    Why is GM looking for a buyer of the Hummer?
  • Someone at a hummer forum (an insider or rumor at a party) posted that Tata offered to buy Jeep-$17B, really? And Rick at Petersen's 4WOR posted in his comment about the 2007 rubicon 4x4 of the year wrap up that it was his favorite real 4x4, even with that minivan v6. (Just got the issue in yesterday's mail and skimmed it late last night). And someone posted a picture of the H3T on Sewell's showroom floor in Dallas. And saw the link (here?) about the new Dodge, Ford, and General 2009 update on their trucks. It seems the general will be offering a 3.42 rear.

    Maybe we don't need another premium vehicle if the competition is heating up. But, there is always a make your own - 4 tires or 4 legs, depending on where you live.
  • smu1976smu1976 Posts: 110
    Read, I said it has a need.

    One, where do you live? Here, we use trucks quite a bit. Have you ever seen a horse trailer with two horses in back, there is your 8000 lbs junior, 3000 on the trailer, 2 a piece on the horses (see kentucky derby, horsetracks, the midwest, horses for rehab therapy etc.), many can haul, with poorer MPG, diesels, duallies, but two to four people is all you can fit legally.

    10 years is a pretty good run on any vehicle? Profit, one of the better trucks in GM's history (Escalade the best of course, take a suburban bling it out, you probably see those where you live eh?, high profit there) but 22 inches longer and the division American General is still quite profitable for GM with the H1 military sales (you don't see to may Jeeps anymore, remember the HEMI Jeep puts out more carbon than the H2 and with the low profile tires, can't take a gravel road). How much longer is a Hummer H2 than a Prius? Less than 15 inches. The point of the post is this, its a good value, because if you have a need (I don't worry how many I see), prices are low, and few understand the towing power of such a small vehicle in comparison to a Suburban, Alvanche or Tundra coupled with seating 7 people? 4 years ago you would pay 55K up, now at high 30's to low 40s its a good deal. Its your money though, spend it what you want and please let me do the same. Trucks will always hold their value better than cars, GM said the H2 is being made until 2010, but I didn't post for a 2010, it was a 06-08, in addition, the Hummer H2 gives you 50K miles or 4 years bumper to bumper warranty, the best of all the above mentioned, Certified 07/08 6 years 100k bumper to bumper. Again, the best. Thats 2013 for a warranty for a vehicle under 40K, that meets my need of only driving 5-7k a year perfectly, sitting seven and pulling 8000lbs

    Whats your choice for a truck or you just here hummer bashing? Or no comment on the Hummer forum for you? Or if you can give me another truck that can do the same since your very knowledgable, please name it, maybe I will buy it, but I can't find one that fits in my garage and is 222 inches long and burns as much gas.
  • aspesisteveaspesisteve Posts: 833
    smu,

    I live in the San Jose, Ca area. The Hummers I see here are usually droping the kids off at school or picking up groceries. I won't knock a Hummer owner who manages to use it's strengths, but for the majority of SUV owners, they seem to be buying a "car" that is equipted to do everything even if they drive the kids to soccer practice 99% of the time.

    I'm in the trades and drive an F150. It too can tow 9000 lbs but I rarely tow more than a couple thousand - so I guess you could say I'm guilty of overload - but I do fill the back up with tools, lumber or debree at least a few times per month.

    There will always be a need for big trucks out there, but with gas approaching $5.00 per gallon (in Ca), the days of the soccer mom driving a Hummer are numbered.
  • mac24mac24 Posts: 3,910
    ..........and the division American General is still quite profitable for GM with the H1 military sales

    Ok, a little clarification required here. American General (AMG) is an independent company and always has been. AMG has always built a variety of vehicles for the military, both large and small, and is probably most well known for manufacturing the HMMWV, often called a Humvee.

    In 1999 GM bought the 'Hummer' name, together with the marketing rights to the civilian version of the HMMWV that AMG was building and selling as the HUMMER.
    GM renamed the HUMMER to H1 and appointed a select number of its dealerships to sell and service it. AMG continued to build the vehicle.

    In 2003 GM launched the H2 under the Hummer name and contracted AMG to build it for them, which they still do today. The H3 has no connection to AMG at all.

    The final version of the H1 (the Duramax engined 'Alpha'), ceased production in June '06. AMG continue to produce the HMWWV along with other military vehicles, and produce prototypes for possible future military use.

    Other than as a contractor, AMG has little connection to GM. The sale of the military vehicles it manufactures provides no profit to GM.

    Whatever GM does with the Hummer brand it won't affect AMG, or the production of HMMWVs or our national security, as I've seen suggested elsewhere.
  • "Whatever GM does with the Hummer brand it won't affect AMG, or the production of HMMWVs or our national security, as I've seen suggested elsewhere. "

    What national security. National Securty is being intouch with humanity-all I want to do is grow some rice and hope my children have a better life than me. Forget the movie heroes who didnt serve at monte cassino or didnt harass old women and children in asia. we are one. we want a better world for our children. please this is not an agricultural world where women have to produce to keep the viable. This is about Hummer. The world is changing. If tata and mahindra dont want hummer, why snuggle up to other growing economies, make hummer affordable(gearing, smaller engines?)

    Keep shreveport alive, fix the twins? ... don't serve! We need vehicles that don't need roads. but

    better_half says I have done this before and she apologized to the hosts.

    If this is true than give me a chicom jeep or an indian jeep or indian hummer.
  • aspesisteveaspesisteve Posts: 833
    :confuse:
  • madmanmoomadmanmoo Posts: 2,039
    What a joke of a vehicle for urban travel. The Hummer brand opitimizes excess. I have driven the vehicle and know first hand what they have to offer.

    Cheapness. The interior looks like a bomb went off at the plastic factory. Gas mileage that is atrocious. Resale value that is atrocious. The brand was built for military use, leave it at that.

    There is no real "need" for a vehicle like this and it is obvious that the American public agrees. May Hummer RIP.

    -moo
  • smu1976smu1976 Posts: 110
    AM General still makes the H2, read the metal tag inside the 2008 door, it is not made my GM next to the Tahoe. For all you SUV bashers who want to save the earth, I suggest WIRED Magazine, page 163, June 2008 issue. Pound for Pound, making a Prius contributes more carbon to the atmosphere than making a Hummer, largely due to the environmental cost of the 30 pounds of nickel in the hybrid's battery. Now the hybrid will erase that deficit on the road, but it will take some years, then you have a 30 lb nickel/lead battery to put out in the trash? A Prius puts out about 113,000 Btus, so it's blown out the pollution of 1000 gallons of gas before the first mile on the road. So the Hollywood Stars arriving on the Red Carpet (flew in on their personal jet), please, read some engineers reports, not marketing and look at me being green crap. Get a Toyota Tercel, there you will save some carbon and about 10-12K to look cool and green. Also, cars won't make a dent, Nuclear is the only answer, electric cars (run on burning coal which produce 26% of the earths 9% of the United States). We, the U.S. mad a big mistake in stopping the cleanest, most climate friendly source of power. But remember, take a trip around the world and see some country's that are so poor that chemicals that have been banned for 40 years here are dumped in the air and oceans on a daily basis. Don't get your shorts bound up on a truck though.
    Going to take 18 wheelers off the road, ships, planes? All blow a tad more out than a couple hundred Hummers on a few trips. Funny how we focus on such a little thing and think we are the world saving the rock but expressing anger our some cat driving a truck. Forget the 500-600 HP mustangs, corvettes, challengers and muscle car return which are selling like crazy, go for the truck.
    I don't own one, but my best buddy at Boeing laughs his [non-permissible content removed] off at this, one F15, soon to be manless, blows more out atmosphere pollutants than fleets. The Hummers are being bought up by who? The middle east, look at the Ebay ads saying they will ship. Guess when they are over there, we are all sitting in our Tercel's like a pretzel, the earth will be clean, cause gas is cheap there and that makes it all good cause that is a different rock?
  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    People are wondering whether it's wise to buy one (an H3 Alpha in this case) if the brand is going to be orphaned:

    Is Hummer NOT a wise purchase anymore?
  • madmanmoomadmanmoo Posts: 2,039
    You've offered a very strange argument. Am I to read correctly that you think buying a Hummer is a wise decision?

    I think you've wandered way off topic. We're not discussing what is the worst for the environment, we're discussing what a waste the Hummer is. Trains, planes, ships and 18 wheelers all serve a larger purpose. The Hummer is just a giant piece of crap that is wasteful. There is no "need" for one. There is a "need" for the transportation of goods and commodities.

    The marketplace reflects that. When a manufacturer is dumping a whole line, then the people have obviously spoken. SUV's are on a decline because gas prices have skyrocketed. They don't make as much sense anymore.

    My personal feelings regarding the Hummer are the way they are because I see the Hummer as the epitome of waste. Is it the most wasteful thing on the earth? Probably not, but what a joke of a vehicle for people to drive. There are tons of options to haul people with better space, gas mileage, visibility, reliability, resale, etc.

    That's my take.

    -moo
  • tidestertidester Posts: 10,059
    we're discussing what a waste the Hummer is

    Not exactly. We're discussing what GM should do with Hummer.

    tidester, host
    SUVs and Smart Shopper
  • madmanmoomadmanmoo Posts: 2,039
    Isn't that the reason that GM is dumping Hummer? Wasteful product? No more profit because the clientele has turned their backs on it?

    -moo
  • smu1976smu1976 Posts: 110
    Actually there is, your probably some youngster or someone between 20-40 at best, there is not one vehicle out there under 200 inches in length, sits 7 and can tow 8000lbs. For you, thats two 2000lbs horses and a 3000lb trailer. If you got a vehicle that can do that and sit 7, tell about it smart boy? The H2 is 40 inches smaller in length than a Suburban and gas mileage is actually better, because a 2500 can't tow 8000lbs, you have to move up the the 454 engine and go with a 3500, with a 44 gallon tank (can sit 8 though). We have H1's and H2's that have hit 300,000 plus and still run well, plus with the altitude we loose 20% Horsepower at every 5K feet. We get our money's worth and the comment is this panic is a good time for us to replace. We haul rescue horses in Colorado and show kids what one can do in this life and world, it does them good, many have had rough lives, abused, abandoned, etc. We can do with a truck, but we can't but groups of kids in the bed of the truck. Also, shaving 22 inches off your length makes it much more adaptable to numerous conditions. So get off my [non-permissible content removed], cause your in some city and all upset cause you see one heading to the mall with 22-26 inch wheels in LA. Does everyone use everything they have for a intended purpose, hell no. Then you get somebody like you trying to rule the world.
    Get over yourself and image and stop worrying about everyone else's. Try to do something good one day that just rip on people. Cow farts and lawnmowers put out more waste also, so why don't you have GM go into the lawnmower division (there, on your topic) and you personally take the initiative on plugging the cows [non-permissible content removed] for us (your personal task).

    Now for GM, the Hummer in their best year was never any contribution of any significance to the bottom line. Suburbans, Escalades, Tahoe,s Danalie's and on and on, there, where sales are down nearly 70% is what is killing GM. What do you do with all those, this is your GM topic junior, tell me units sold of those versus Hummer in their best year ever? I would not worry what GM does with Hummer, and being a stockholder I could care less, GM is spending more on Healthcare than steel right now, it's not Hummer that will put a single digit on the 10K, or save a job, it doesn't mean anything, do you understand that? They will be cranking out Aveo's quicker than you can plug three cows asses (the kids came up with that one, I liked it). You know nothing about trucks, nothing about the auto industry, even less about business, but your great with judging people. You could probably use 2 weeks out here with us, I'll change your outlook on life no charge, for some of these kids are way ahead of you already. We are outside of Leadville Colorado all summer. Take it easy fellow, there is a lot more out there than worrying what a company is going to do with one model in this life and again, if you got a vehicle that can match what they can do (H2) and haul, give us an answer, cause we (most of us are in our late 50's and 60's) haven't found one? I don't think you will, but I will give you the benefit, cause maybe I am wrong and can learn. In the Winter, we let the patrol use them on saving out of bound lost skiers, lost snowmobilers, etc., Saving a few life's, not worth anything to you? Should the guys change cause we aren't cutting it with your image? Nothing goes through snow, rock and can take grades than these beast. It's not a daily driver, but has a purpose!
    Pull 8000 lbs, sit 7 there is your use!
  • madmanmoomadmanmoo Posts: 2,039
    Uhh, wow. Smu, I'm glad that you're using the vehicle for its "intended" purpose. I don't have an issue with that. My base instinct of hatred for the Hummer kicks in when I see it being used as a daily driver in Atlanta. My dislike for the vehicle was also based on the attitudes of the people that I met who drove them. You've done an excellent job of reinforcing that opinion with your comments.

    If you got a vehicle that can do that and sit 7, tell about it smart boy?

    Ok, I'll start you out with one. How about a Toyota Landcruiser? It beats the Hummer in ever category. The build quality is better, the comfort is better, reliability, resale, you name it. I'll provide a link for you to check that out.

    http://www.edmunds.com/new/2008/toyota/landcruiser/100946164/specs.html

    So that's one vehicle that I found in about 3 minutes of looking. I can keep going if you want, but I'm sure I could come up with about 4-5 more alternatives.

    So get off my [non-permissible content removed], cause your in some city and all upset cause you see one heading to the mall with 22-26 inch wheels in LA. Does everyone use everything they have for a intended purpose, hell no. Then you get somebody like you trying to rule the world.

    That's exactly right. It's wasteful and silly when I see people driving to the mall in these things. They can absolutely do it if they want to, I'm merely voicing my opinion. This is a forum, after all.

    You know nothing about trucks, nothing about the auto industry, even less about business, but your great with judging people

    I don't know a ton about trucks. I know enough to get by, I suppose. I've been selling cars for 6 years so I would expect that I know a bit about the auto business and industry. My people judging skills? They seem to be a bit better than yours at this point.

    It sounds like you've got a great retreat there in CO. I'm sure it would do me some good. Judging by your post though, it sounds like you should think about getting a vacation for yourself. You may be losing focus.

    By the way, you wouldn't happen to know someone name Macky Morris would you? He was an old college buddy and worked out there in CO on some ranches.

    -moo
  • Checking bookmarks just now, Ed Wallace's insideautomotive had a link to Detroit News article stating "Gm..., Hires Broker for Hummer"

    If India and China? said no - then who is the broker going to ask?

    Fix the twins before the F100 hits?
  • Just read on the forum that Citibank is to review the brand. Guess the marketing department is like the Monty Python sketch about the army - colors and textures. So, it must be a money issue.

    Went to see a jeep parts manager recently and also sat in a wrangler. While narrow, the seats were soft, unlike the crd and the h3, but the rubi's window sticker was an awakening.
  • If the H2 is AM General, H3 is only Shreveport and is desert runner/grocery getter, and the twins come in last in small pickups, eat the loss, shut down Shreveport, concede off road to the rubi, and give small trucks to Nissan/Toyota (like Ford did).
  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    Hummer sales nosedive (Straightline)

    image
  • smu1976smu1976 Posts: 110
    topic, what should GM do with Hummer, not H2, H3, but HUMMER

    Son, go back to the fancy book learning, cause whatever system you had there is not working. First, anytime I have an individual write “my hatred” it’s usually time to move on, for you might be on the next train to Auschwitz, but I will further indulge your misunderstanding of the vehicle, and once again, that the vehicle has a purpose. Remember, the post, GM sells Hummer, so put your Landcruiser against a H1, matter of fact, Barry up here says you better put two of them against an H1 with that new Lexus engine at this altitude.

    1) The Hummer H2 has a towing and payload capacity of 10,186 pounds

    2) The Landcruiser has a towing and payload capacity of 10,085 pounds, so a no win here, 3-4 minutes will always get you those results, wrong ones. If you don’t add the two, put the Landcruiser in all wheel drive (worse gas miliage, your are definietely correct, you don’t know a lot about trucks). I don’t either, but only stated it has a purpose, but these boys up here, they know them and know what works in this part of the country and quite frankly bust out laughing when they heard Landcruiser. “ We need someone that can work”!

    3) They did ask what your two or three other recommendations are, since I said, we are always open to recommendations and learning, we have no “hate”, but we don’t have time to teach auto salesman.

    4) In addition, the Landcruiser does beat the Hummer in price, you are correct their young fellow by about 10-12K in current market conditions, then add on that GM has 0% financing for 6 years till the end of the month for suppliers and employee’s for all their vehicles, (we can get that, most people can if the check with the employer), may you can match our price or maybe have your dealership donate a Landcruiser?

    Car salesman, so this market has to be good for you right?
    I am a tad older than you, retired and remember when the Pinto and the Vega were the last answer to the fuel crisis, trust me, this will pass as most recessions, depressions, as gas shortages have in history. All large truck sales are dropping, not just Hummer, that is what is killing every auto manufacturer, including Toyota, very hard on Tundra sales, damn Toyota stock is down 20% this year. You think any large truck sales for any one brand is up; these are the vehicles with the most profit. Why the poor sales, its only the Hummer which sold 70 thousand trucks their best year ever? It’s not just gas, it’s the economy, our mortgage and loan crisis, people who need trucks for work, business, are not buying them (or even cars) times are tough, we are in recession, you know your credit approvals are down. My post states, time to buy for panic of gas prices causes good market conditions correct for the aforementioned product? One of us up here has about 7 dealerships taking in about 3-7 SUVs in the Midwest on a day on trades; this should be good for your right? He’s knows there is money to be made, do you?

    Now, this is going to clean the earth, because all of these SUV’s,
    Trucks, Boats, Private Jets (watch those owner's fly them into Aspen and then hop in their Prius), Jet Ski’s, Lawn Mowers, Weedwackers, Power Washer’s, Chainsaws, and anything with a gasoline engine that could possible be economized and made greener since we in little North America “go green”, will be crushed? No, at worst, sent on a ship to a foreign country will they will run them for 30 years (see Cuba’s history and take longer than 4 seconds and see that 90 miles off the coast of Florida how many 1950 American vehicles are being run with more pollution than all Hummers combined).
    Now is the time to put someone into a new Corolla, make your commission and
    Make a donation to the charity of your choice this Sunday. Be a professional, don’t state your occupation and “hatred” on a car forum post, then recommend a Toyota, just a little business acumen, it just may help your reputation especially with our Veterans of WWII. Remember, Hummer is made in Indiana, by Americans, Manufactured by AM General for GM. AM General
    was purchased by American Motors (Studabaker, actually the same plant used for Hummer) which made all Jeeps and Hummers (same brand) hence still the same
    looking front grill, still today. Then sold Jeep to American Motors, made for regular consumer, then bought by Iacocca at Chrysler around 1989, learn from the best auto salesman, a genius with a heart. Finally GM bought the military only version left of AM General, consumerized the H1, then H2, H3 (consumer only).
    Now remember, the consumer was paying 5-15k over sticker 5-6 years ago for the H2 (look back at postings, its so educational about our economy and panic reactions). The H1 which still manufactured today is used everyday by our
    Troops (is not going to be sold to the middle east, Tata, like the Range Rover and Jag, Englands flagship brands).
    Barry (the care dealer owner) informs me, Troops have know intention of changing to the Landcruiser, but they would enjoy the plush ride, highway tires, and fit and finish, but the low door and large glass design, may be a problem with gunfire and insurgents.

    Finally,

    No vacation needed, done working, fully retired, loving life, sometimes
    working in charity for several months, know horses from the frog in their foot
    to the knot in their tail, know kids and the two seem to learn from each
    other and get along just fine, which maybe is a lesson for all even you and I.

    Good Luck
  • madmanmoomadmanmoo Posts: 2,039
    I feel like you're having a conversation with someone else. You're kind of all over the place.

    I'm stating as a individual consumer, not as a car salesman, that I hate Hummers. I suppose that is too strong a word since you automatically think "Auschwitz". :confuse:

    If you're using them for its intended purpose as a troop carrier through war zones, then I can totally understand. Driving the Hummer around town on urban highways seems just ridiculous. If someone bought and drove an M1 Abrams tank and used it as their daily driver, then I would really hate that as well. Pretty simple. I didn't like them when gas was $2/gallon and I don't like them when gas it at $4/gallon. Not driving them isn't going to save the universe. It will simply bring a little joy to my heart. I think they are just a sign of complete excess. Personal taste.

    All the people that I talk to who need offroad vehicles are using Range Rovers. I have several clients who work and have business in Africa and the RR is what gets the job done. It appears to me that the Hummer is simply a bad fad. One I think we'll be best suited to do without.

    I sell Porsches, so it's not like I'm pandering for my own brand. The imports, over time, have shown that they have greater reliability, fit/finish and many are still built in the States.

    You're speaking from ignorance oldtimer. The times they are a-changin'. I think you're being left behind with your Hummer.

    Good luck!
  • Replying here and not at Straightline. Why are sales down? MPG not really an issue with the Three. 17 mpg on the recent trip keeping up with the traffic and some local driving included, could be compared how? to millions of trucks and others getting less. Think the Hummer image was Fox'd.

    The two could stay with American. The three could be morphed with the twins [but please who okay'ed that last truck (and twins) headlight design-what a turnoff-calling for ralph-where is the bowl].

    better_half just last night said she would buy Blue_Beauty again even knowing this current information. Looked at a wrangler unlimited (15-19mpg)again yesterday-yes know about leaky roofs, old 3.8L motor, yes been burned three times with Chrysler-Belvedere, New Yorker, and CRD.

    Just waiting for now. Tired old back, getting harder and harder to climb down into the Bu. b_h even considering another three. '09 16mm tie rods, iron front diff, steel roof (albeit no wrangler cage).

    Or make electric streetcars in Shreveport for the future New Cities. One dozen fresh farm eggs for one quart of pickled gardenville variety okra plus one vacuumed packed dried celeste figs or one wheelbarrow of green paper-so how much is that three in the window.

    A recent h forum post showing a severely crushed three and comments that a Murano scored better. Earlier at that site a Dallas three driver was rear ended by a - 9 ton earthmover 4x4 truck motorhome? (memory fading). Just recently in Dallas a truck (F150)? hit a Windstar minivan? Only thing recognizable on tv, was the grill and blue oval - all five died.

    And just yesterday on a tv interview, people are walking in Arlington, Tx, the city that taxed themselves to make J.Jones a billionaire while they reject mass transit. One was a student from Kazakhstan walking 4 hours 20 miles. The reporter stupidly asked how it was where he came from - the answer was better than Arlington. The reporter said something like - that's embarrassing. Please no dumbed down remarks about yankees, unions, foreigners - 30+ years here (Sam brought me to DFW and never found the exit door)-heard it all several times. I know how stupid I am - I don't want to know how stupid you are anymore.

    So, you can walk, ride a horse, use mass transit if it is available, or pick from what you can afford. Everybody uses red green's line-we're all in this together.
  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    So, you can walk, ride a horse,

    Friend of mine called this morning and was talking about how we're all going to be forced to ride horses because of high gas prices.

    I asked him if he'd priced hay lately (it's up to $9 a bale around here!).

    More topical, a big Hummer will pull a big horse trailer and lots of people have 4 and 6 horse units. There's 4 horses on my little dead end street and the owners use big pickups to tote the trailers around.
  • aspesisteveaspesisteve Posts: 833
    if you think that Hummer sales are not reflective of the gas milege they produce then you are in complete denial. It's not just Hummer, it's SUV's in general.

    I'm sure you can get 17 mpg under some ideal condition, but face it the epa estimates don't even call out for that.....in fact I couldn't even find the epa estimates here on Edmunds.

    I'm sure for every Hummer there is at least 1% of their owners who actually put them to good use. But as the sales #'s reflect, the excess of owning something like a Hummer has caused GM to want to unload the beast.
  • Interesting that you chimed in on horses. The post originally was to start about farmers and ranchers, of which we are neither. But we are aware of both. TOFGA, SAWG, and a little therapeutic riding volunteer work. And haven't been to Colorado for some time and haven't seen an H2 pulling a trailer. At a rodeo within the last year, b_h's relatives, professional riders, mentioned the swing from dodge cummins to gm duramax/allison.
  • You are probably correct about the 1% but not our fault. Compromises and marketing mistakes may have been one reason. IFS, aluminum front differential, 4.56 gears. The three was a compromise, a pseudo jeep/denali(?), that's what a previous post stated. And someone posted at h forum about a chipped, open exhaust, alpha three on cruise getting twenty mpg. Don't know if the 3.7 can pull 3.73 gears and survive commuting requirements - not just highway cruising. Was hoping for someone to set me straight. Off roading can be done by a jeep or truck, and the marketplace is there with their hearts desire for improvements. It is still one great compromise. All that said, like the three and maybe someday that will be a project.
  • mac24mac24 Posts: 3,910
    Let me selectively pick a couple of points here:

    "My base instinct of hatred for the Hummer kicks in when I see it being used as a daily driver in Atlanta........."

    and,

    "It's wasteful and silly when I see people driving to the mall in these things......"

    and then,

    "I sell Porsches"

    Now, I can't argue against the fact that in some ways it's wasteful not to use a vehicle to the limits of its design. Most vehicles fall into this under utilized category though, including both Hummer models currently available (which are very capable off road), and most Porsche models (which are very capable on the track) plus the Cayenne which manages to be good at both.
    The only vehicles that come close to full utilization are commercial vehicles carrying a full load 24/7, carpooler's vehicles to and from work, and single seat mopeds and scooters when being ridden.

    To my point though, which is, how can you complain about the majority of Hummers not being used to their full capability, when the same applies to the majority of Porsches that you sell?
    Many H2s get taken off road at the weekend, just as many Porches get taken to the track, but both are equally wasteful of their potential when being driven to the store.

    I do believe you hate Hummers (the H2 specifically?), I do believe that the red mist comes down when the soccer mom manages to take up two parking slots at the mall with one; I believe it because I've seen it in others. My problem is that I don't understand it because I don't feel it like you do. Slight annoyance yes, but no more so than at Denalis, Suburbans, Expeditions, etc., etc.

    Can you explain the hatred for one but not for all? I don't think you can point to one 'wasteful' aspect of the H2 that isn't matched by at least one of its brethren from the big three.

    I see the emotion that's there, though I don't feel it myself, but I definitely don't see the logic; that's the bit I need you to help me with. :)
  • madmanmoomadmanmoo Posts: 2,039
    Hi Mac,

    I think the irritation about the product is just instinctual. I see it as the top of the food chain for complete excess and wastefulness. Therefore, it gets me riled. I think it also has to do with the fact that it was produced for military use and driving the horses around in CO, I don't think you'll come under heavy fire. Nor do I believe you'll get into that kind of situation at the mall (although things are changing). :shades:

    I would have to take exception to your point about Porsches. These vehicles are the most reliable, economical sports car on the road. You might argue that the price of them is completely unnecessary, but I don't see the connection with a Hummer.

    These sports cars are made to be enjoyed as daily drivers. Do all of our customers do so? Absolutely not, but many do enjoy them every day. Our Boxster returns 30mpg on the highway. That's pretty awesome. For the new 911, they have reduced emissions by 15% and added direct fuel injection which improves gas mileage and performance. There's a lot to be said for how Porsche takes care of the environment and isn't wasteful. Do you need a Porsche? No, you never will, but I dont think it will ever fall into the same category of Hummer.

    You asked about Porsches not being used to their full potential on the track. Yes, many of our drivers don't know how to drive worth a lick, but I just don't see the correlation with Hummer. Hummers are cheaply made, poor reliability, poor gas mileage, poor resale, etc. Porsches don't match any of that. I suppose I would feel a little bit better about Hummer not being used for it's original purpose if it did something well. It just falls on it face, in my opinion.

    Suburbans, Expeditions? I see a lot of people using those for horse trailers and major people haulers. It just doesn't pull out the same hatred. :blush:

    Does that help?
  • tidestertidester Posts: 10,059
    These vehicles are the most reliable, economical sports car on the road.

    Nevertheless, Mac does have a valid point. How many of those Porches are actually used to anything near their potential? But then you could say the same for most vehicles. Apparently, you just don't like "BIG." Others just don't like those pesky little sportsters that weave frantically from lane to lane, are hard to see and annoy everyone else. :P

    tidester, host
    SUVs and Smart Shopper
  • mac24mac24 Posts: 3,910
    I think the irritation about the product is just instinctual. I see it as the top of the food chain for complete excess and wastefulness. Therefore, it gets me riled. I think it also has to do with the fact that it was produced for military use and driving the horses around in CO, I don't think you'll come under heavy fire. Nor do I believe you'll get into that kind of situation at the mall (although things are changing)............

    ..............Does that help?


    Hey Moo,

    Kind of helps, though I think it's the image you hate rather than the reality
    I need you to clarify one thing though; is it the H2 you hate, or is it all things Hummer? You see, the Hummer most commonly seen on the roads these days is the H2, with the H3 catching up fast. The H2 was never designed for military use and would be ill suited for such a task. The civilian version of the military Hummer is usually referred to as the H1, and as only 11,000 or so have been produced since 1992, over half of which have been exported and many were strictly commercial versions used for mining and construction, it's not too common to see one on the highway (though LA and Miami seem to have more than their fair share). Those were/are designed and built by American General (AMG), which has nothing to do with GM other than they build the H2 for GM using GM supplied parts. For a more detailed explanation see my earlier post here: AMG/GM.

    I suppose I would feel a little bit better about Hummer not being used for it's original purpose if it did something well. It just falls on it face, in my opinion.

    Just as on track performance is something that Porsche does well, offroad capability is something the H2 has in spades, much more so than comparable 4x4s from other manufacturers.

    Anyhow, back to original point, it's the 'Hummer hate' that intrigues me, not because I drive one (they just don't appeal to me) but because that attitude is occasionally misdirected to me, usually in the form of a raised finger by Prius pilots as we pass. I drive an H1, which when I run on recycled WVO (waste vegetable oil) is consuming 100% less petroleum based fuel than the Prius (which is why the finger always makes me smile :) ).

    (Incidentally, if you can accept that the H2 is good offroad you just wouldn't believe what an H1 can do.)
  • madmanmoomadmanmoo Posts: 2,039
    I agreed with his point. Only a few of our buyers can actually use them to their true potential as a pure sports car. However, I see it as being quite different since they aren't obnoxiously in your face and wasteful. Porsches do many things well besides just being good on a track. Do you see my distinction?

    Mac said that the H1 and H2 were very capable offroad. That may be one thing that they are good at, but I have to wonder about how capable they truly are with that much weight being hauled around.

    So after driving and looking over the H2, I saw that it had poor build quality, terrible resale, cheap interior, difficult to manuever and horrible gas mileage. That's when I thought to myself, "This vehicle has no redeeming qualities whatsoever. I hope the brand gets dumped."

    So, if you're comparing to Porsches, these vehicles do so many things well. Great resale, fit and finish, performance, reliability, emissions and fuel consumption, etc. So, even if someone isn't using it to its full potential, at least other things are done very well.

    Do you see my distinction?
  • madmanmoomadmanmoo Posts: 2,039
    Kind of helps, though I think it's the image you hate rather than the reality

    That may be true. I've only driven the vehicle for a short time and have not owned one. It is the H2 that my irritation is directed at.

    -moo
  • mac24mac24 Posts: 3,910
    I haven't owned a Porsche either, but I've always admired them and I certainly agree on your comparison of build quality and materials; and I think we can agree that neither has its design specialities used to the full by most owners either.

    No, the issue that fascinates me is the negativity that's directed at Hummers and the H2 specifically, rather than at all large SUVs, and I think that the reason I can't really get my head around it is because it's an emotional reaction rather than a logical one.

    I think it's a case of either you 'get it' or you don't, and in my case I don't 'get it' but I do think I understand it a little better now.

    :)
  • aspesisteveaspesisteve Posts: 833
    Here's why I choose to pick on the Hummer.

    The commercials would romaticise the thought of traveling accross the planet where no man (and no gas station) has gone before.

    Because GM, not Porsche had alot of say in passing a tax credit for cars such as the Hummer.

    Because it's footprint is bigger than anything in it's class.

    It does have ties to the Military and when I see a "Support our troops" sticker on the back of one I can't help but wonder how getting 8 miles to the gallon helps "suport" anyone except Exxon - and probably has alot to do with our dependance on the middle east our foreign policy in the middle east.

    Because Arnold Schwartzenager, who claims to be an environmentalis, drove one (an H1!) to create an image that is quite a contrast to being eco friendly.
  • Thanks for letting the topic expand on hummer dislike. Very good and enlightening discussion. But if the economy is as bad as has been stated (bank of scotland, rescap, gmac, cerberus, and gm), don't think we will be wasting energy talking about vehicles. Food, shelter, and clothing come to mind, unless the true price per barrel is achieved (and maybe an interest holiday). Talk is everywhere about this motor that motor design, this fuel that fuel, and the like. In spite of all that, it would've been nice (and may be built) to try a three with the improvements (tie rods, lockers, cast iron front differential-if no sfa conversion) and a little supercharger boost for hills and mountains, and different gearing.
  • tidestertidester Posts: 10,059
    Do you see my distinction?

    Well, yeah, but those issues pertain to most (all?) vehicles and what distinguishes the Hummer is its size. So, basically you don't like big. :)

    tidester, host
    SUVs and Smart Shopper
  • madmanmoomadmanmoo Posts: 2,039
    Are you purposely being thickheaded about this or are you just trying to torque me up?

    There are many quality vehicles out there for purchase. The Hummer is not one of them. It has no redeeming qualities. That's why I don't like it. At all. The Suburban doesn't bother me. The Expedition doesn't bother me.

    The H2 does. For all the reasons I've listed before. :)

    Where does your opinion lie, Tidester? I'm assuming that you like the vehicle?

    -moo
  • tidestertidester Posts: 10,059
    I'm assuming that you like the vehicle?

    Well, not really, but someone's got to try to provide a little balance here. :)

    tidester, host
    SUVs and Smart Shopper
  • madmanmoomadmanmoo Posts: 2,039
    Lol!!

    Just change your name to "Devil's Advocate" then. I thought I put forward some pretty good points.

    Let's be real. What other vehicle draws the same instinctual response as a Hummer? That's a love or hate vehicle.

    -moo
  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    What other vehicle draws the same instinctual response as a Hummer?

    That may be worthy of a whole topic.

    Perhaps BMWs. And Jettas (both because of the oft noted stereotypical attributes of the drivers).

    But I think you're right - the H1 and H2 are definitely poster children for the I Don't Like SUVs Why Do You crowd.

    What happens to the image if HUMMER gets sold to Tata or Chery?
  • Dreaming and wishing some time back, would it be a land cruiser or a 2. Sat in 2's but never drove one-afraid it could be addictive.

    Wanted to say electric supercharger in prior post but haven't spent time lately on research in that area. Don't have the green autoblog bookmarked, but a google hit just discovered a recent green autoblog hit about controlled power technologies and their electric supercharger. Stored for further use.
  • madmanmoomadmanmoo Posts: 2,039
    What happens to the image if HUMMER gets sold to Tata or Chery?

    I'm not sure if anything will happen. I wonder what TaTa sees that we don't.
  • mac24mac24 Posts: 3,910
    It does have ties to the Military and when I see a "Support our troops" sticker on the back of one..............

    LOL...I hope you've got more to back up its ties to the military than occasionally spotting a "Support Our Troops" sticker on the back of one.

    Oh dear, that did make me smile. :)
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