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What should GM do with Hummer



  • aspesisteveaspesisteve Posts: 833
    if you think that Hummer sales are not reflective of the gas milege they produce then you are in complete denial. It's not just Hummer, it's SUV's in general.

    I'm sure you can get 17 mpg under some ideal condition, but face it the epa estimates don't even call out for fact I couldn't even find the epa estimates here on Edmunds.

    I'm sure for every Hummer there is at least 1% of their owners who actually put them to good use. But as the sales #'s reflect, the excess of owning something like a Hummer has caused GM to want to unload the beast.
  • Interesting that you chimed in on horses. The post originally was to start about farmers and ranchers, of which we are neither. But we are aware of both. TOFGA, SAWG, and a little therapeutic riding volunteer work. And haven't been to Colorado for some time and haven't seen an H2 pulling a trailer. At a rodeo within the last year, b_h's relatives, professional riders, mentioned the swing from dodge cummins to gm duramax/allison.
  • You are probably correct about the 1% but not our fault. Compromises and marketing mistakes may have been one reason. IFS, aluminum front differential, 4.56 gears. The three was a compromise, a pseudo jeep/denali(?), that's what a previous post stated. And someone posted at h forum about a chipped, open exhaust, alpha three on cruise getting twenty mpg. Don't know if the 3.7 can pull 3.73 gears and survive commuting requirements - not just highway cruising. Was hoping for someone to set me straight. Off roading can be done by a jeep or truck, and the marketplace is there with their hearts desire for improvements. It is still one great compromise. All that said, like the three and maybe someday that will be a project.
  • mac24mac24 Posts: 3,910
    Let me selectively pick a couple of points here:

    "My base instinct of hatred for the Hummer kicks in when I see it being used as a daily driver in Atlanta........."


    "It's wasteful and silly when I see people driving to the mall in these things......"

    and then,

    "I sell Porsches"

    Now, I can't argue against the fact that in some ways it's wasteful not to use a vehicle to the limits of its design. Most vehicles fall into this under utilized category though, including both Hummer models currently available (which are very capable off road), and most Porsche models (which are very capable on the track) plus the Cayenne which manages to be good at both.
    The only vehicles that come close to full utilization are commercial vehicles carrying a full load 24/7, carpooler's vehicles to and from work, and single seat mopeds and scooters when being ridden.

    To my point though, which is, how can you complain about the majority of Hummers not being used to their full capability, when the same applies to the majority of Porsches that you sell?
    Many H2s get taken off road at the weekend, just as many Porches get taken to the track, but both are equally wasteful of their potential when being driven to the store.

    I do believe you hate Hummers (the H2 specifically?), I do believe that the red mist comes down when the soccer mom manages to take up two parking slots at the mall with one; I believe it because I've seen it in others. My problem is that I don't understand it because I don't feel it like you do. Slight annoyance yes, but no more so than at Denalis, Suburbans, Expeditions, etc., etc.

    Can you explain the hatred for one but not for all? I don't think you can point to one 'wasteful' aspect of the H2 that isn't matched by at least one of its brethren from the big three.

    I see the emotion that's there, though I don't feel it myself, but I definitely don't see the logic; that's the bit I need you to help me with. :)
  • madmanmoomadmanmoo Posts: 2,039
    Hi Mac,

    I think the irritation about the product is just instinctual. I see it as the top of the food chain for complete excess and wastefulness. Therefore, it gets me riled. I think it also has to do with the fact that it was produced for military use and driving the horses around in CO, I don't think you'll come under heavy fire. Nor do I believe you'll get into that kind of situation at the mall (although things are changing). :shades:

    I would have to take exception to your point about Porsches. These vehicles are the most reliable, economical sports car on the road. You might argue that the price of them is completely unnecessary, but I don't see the connection with a Hummer.

    These sports cars are made to be enjoyed as daily drivers. Do all of our customers do so? Absolutely not, but many do enjoy them every day. Our Boxster returns 30mpg on the highway. That's pretty awesome. For the new 911, they have reduced emissions by 15% and added direct fuel injection which improves gas mileage and performance. There's a lot to be said for how Porsche takes care of the environment and isn't wasteful. Do you need a Porsche? No, you never will, but I dont think it will ever fall into the same category of Hummer.

    You asked about Porsches not being used to their full potential on the track. Yes, many of our drivers don't know how to drive worth a lick, but I just don't see the correlation with Hummer. Hummers are cheaply made, poor reliability, poor gas mileage, poor resale, etc. Porsches don't match any of that. I suppose I would feel a little bit better about Hummer not being used for it's original purpose if it did something well. It just falls on it face, in my opinion.

    Suburbans, Expeditions? I see a lot of people using those for horse trailers and major people haulers. It just doesn't pull out the same hatred. :blush:

    Does that help?
  • tidestertidester Posts: 10,059
    These vehicles are the most reliable, economical sports car on the road.

    Nevertheless, Mac does have a valid point. How many of those Porches are actually used to anything near their potential? But then you could say the same for most vehicles. Apparently, you just don't like "BIG." Others just don't like those pesky little sportsters that weave frantically from lane to lane, are hard to see and annoy everyone else. :P

    tidester, host
    SUVs and Smart Shopper
  • mac24mac24 Posts: 3,910
    I think the irritation about the product is just instinctual. I see it as the top of the food chain for complete excess and wastefulness. Therefore, it gets me riled. I think it also has to do with the fact that it was produced for military use and driving the horses around in CO, I don't think you'll come under heavy fire. Nor do I believe you'll get into that kind of situation at the mall (although things are changing)............

    ..............Does that help?

    Hey Moo,

    Kind of helps, though I think it's the image you hate rather than the reality
    I need you to clarify one thing though; is it the H2 you hate, or is it all things Hummer? You see, the Hummer most commonly seen on the roads these days is the H2, with the H3 catching up fast. The H2 was never designed for military use and would be ill suited for such a task. The civilian version of the military Hummer is usually referred to as the H1, and as only 11,000 or so have been produced since 1992, over half of which have been exported and many were strictly commercial versions used for mining and construction, it's not too common to see one on the highway (though LA and Miami seem to have more than their fair share). Those were/are designed and built by American General (AMG), which has nothing to do with GM other than they build the H2 for GM using GM supplied parts. For a more detailed explanation see my earlier post here: AMG/GM.

    I suppose I would feel a little bit better about Hummer not being used for it's original purpose if it did something well. It just falls on it face, in my opinion.

    Just as on track performance is something that Porsche does well, offroad capability is something the H2 has in spades, much more so than comparable 4x4s from other manufacturers.

    Anyhow, back to original point, it's the 'Hummer hate' that intrigues me, not because I drive one (they just don't appeal to me) but because that attitude is occasionally misdirected to me, usually in the form of a raised finger by Prius pilots as we pass. I drive an H1, which when I run on recycled WVO (waste vegetable oil) is consuming 100% less petroleum based fuel than the Prius (which is why the finger always makes me smile :) ).

    (Incidentally, if you can accept that the H2 is good offroad you just wouldn't believe what an H1 can do.)
  • madmanmoomadmanmoo Posts: 2,039
    I agreed with his point. Only a few of our buyers can actually use them to their true potential as a pure sports car. However, I see it as being quite different since they aren't obnoxiously in your face and wasteful. Porsches do many things well besides just being good on a track. Do you see my distinction?

    Mac said that the H1 and H2 were very capable offroad. That may be one thing that they are good at, but I have to wonder about how capable they truly are with that much weight being hauled around.

    So after driving and looking over the H2, I saw that it had poor build quality, terrible resale, cheap interior, difficult to manuever and horrible gas mileage. That's when I thought to myself, "This vehicle has no redeeming qualities whatsoever. I hope the brand gets dumped."

    So, if you're comparing to Porsches, these vehicles do so many things well. Great resale, fit and finish, performance, reliability, emissions and fuel consumption, etc. So, even if someone isn't using it to its full potential, at least other things are done very well.

    Do you see my distinction?
  • madmanmoomadmanmoo Posts: 2,039
    Kind of helps, though I think it's the image you hate rather than the reality

    That may be true. I've only driven the vehicle for a short time and have not owned one. It is the H2 that my irritation is directed at.

  • mac24mac24 Posts: 3,910
    I haven't owned a Porsche either, but I've always admired them and I certainly agree on your comparison of build quality and materials; and I think we can agree that neither has its design specialities used to the full by most owners either.

    No, the issue that fascinates me is the negativity that's directed at Hummers and the H2 specifically, rather than at all large SUVs, and I think that the reason I can't really get my head around it is because it's an emotional reaction rather than a logical one.

    I think it's a case of either you 'get it' or you don't, and in my case I don't 'get it' but I do think I understand it a little better now.

  • aspesisteveaspesisteve Posts: 833
    Here's why I choose to pick on the Hummer.

    The commercials would romaticise the thought of traveling accross the planet where no man (and no gas station) has gone before.

    Because GM, not Porsche had alot of say in passing a tax credit for cars such as the Hummer.

    Because it's footprint is bigger than anything in it's class.

    It does have ties to the Military and when I see a "Support our troops" sticker on the back of one I can't help but wonder how getting 8 miles to the gallon helps "suport" anyone except Exxon - and probably has alot to do with our dependance on the middle east our foreign policy in the middle east.

    Because Arnold Schwartzenager, who claims to be an environmentalis, drove one (an H1!) to create an image that is quite a contrast to being eco friendly.
  • Thanks for letting the topic expand on hummer dislike. Very good and enlightening discussion. But if the economy is as bad as has been stated (bank of scotland, rescap, gmac, cerberus, and gm), don't think we will be wasting energy talking about vehicles. Food, shelter, and clothing come to mind, unless the true price per barrel is achieved (and maybe an interest holiday). Talk is everywhere about this motor that motor design, this fuel that fuel, and the like. In spite of all that, it would've been nice (and may be built) to try a three with the improvements (tie rods, lockers, cast iron front differential-if no sfa conversion) and a little supercharger boost for hills and mountains, and different gearing.
  • tidestertidester Posts: 10,059
    Do you see my distinction?

    Well, yeah, but those issues pertain to most (all?) vehicles and what distinguishes the Hummer is its size. So, basically you don't like big. :)

    tidester, host
    SUVs and Smart Shopper
  • madmanmoomadmanmoo Posts: 2,039
    Are you purposely being thickheaded about this or are you just trying to torque me up?

    There are many quality vehicles out there for purchase. The Hummer is not one of them. It has no redeeming qualities. That's why I don't like it. At all. The Suburban doesn't bother me. The Expedition doesn't bother me.

    The H2 does. For all the reasons I've listed before. :)

    Where does your opinion lie, Tidester? I'm assuming that you like the vehicle?

  • tidestertidester Posts: 10,059
    I'm assuming that you like the vehicle?

    Well, not really, but someone's got to try to provide a little balance here. :)

    tidester, host
    SUVs and Smart Shopper
  • madmanmoomadmanmoo Posts: 2,039

    Just change your name to "Devil's Advocate" then. I thought I put forward some pretty good points.

    Let's be real. What other vehicle draws the same instinctual response as a Hummer? That's a love or hate vehicle.

  • steverstever Posts: 52,683
    What other vehicle draws the same instinctual response as a Hummer?

    That may be worthy of a whole topic.

    Perhaps BMWs. And Jettas (both because of the oft noted stereotypical attributes of the drivers).

    But I think you're right - the H1 and H2 are definitely poster children for the I Don't Like SUVs Why Do You crowd.

    What happens to the image if HUMMER gets sold to Tata or Chery?
  • Dreaming and wishing some time back, would it be a land cruiser or a 2. Sat in 2's but never drove one-afraid it could be addictive.

    Wanted to say electric supercharger in prior post but haven't spent time lately on research in that area. Don't have the green autoblog bookmarked, but a google hit just discovered a recent green autoblog hit about controlled power technologies and their electric supercharger. Stored for further use.
  • madmanmoomadmanmoo Posts: 2,039
    What happens to the image if HUMMER gets sold to Tata or Chery?

    I'm not sure if anything will happen. I wonder what TaTa sees that we don't.
  • mac24mac24 Posts: 3,910
    It does have ties to the Military and when I see a "Support our troops" sticker on the back of one..............

    LOL...I hope you've got more to back up its ties to the military than occasionally spotting a "Support Our Troops" sticker on the back of one.

    Oh dear, that did make me smile. :)
  • janakiramjanakiram Posts: 5
    After January 2009, Dick Cheney will be the perfect spokesman to sell Hummers, following Bob Dole's footsteps! Most Hummer types probably think a world of him, and look upon their Hummers to help them overcome in areas where the may be falling short, and Bob Dole's Viagra can come in handy!
  • Thanks for the descriptive word "Most". t_o_d is definitely a blue person in a red state. Some people only think of on/off, they all are, and etc. At times, don't like being included, erroneously, as in the go go, macho man, guns, hunting, fishing, hd's - (hogs). (By the way any truth that moab uranium mining is making the river glow at night). Been to asia courtesy of sam, rode a bwm boxer for a couple of years-but definitely been sad since the propaganda machine took over our constitition.
  • Obviously you are being ignored, which is the proper response. Even my comments elicited nothing. Enjoy your prius. Toyota seats are toyota seats. The air filter test for diesels has been linked several times. Stick with a clean factory filter.

    Each can walk, ride a bike, or buy what each can afford or want to pay. And we are all entitled to free speech and thought. Yes, there are negative prius comments in hummer posts-provoked by the gestures and vandalism against hummers owners and their vehicles. Who started it and when - don't know - but think it should stop-there are bigger fish to fry. Hope you got your licks in - did that make you feel better.
  • Thanks You Edmunds!
    What should GM do with Hummer. GM wants to sell the name? No takers? H2 is a limited production play toy. H3 isn't as tough as some believe. H3 isn't as bad as most believe. Still would buy one without rock crawling gears. [even though finally got around to putting on the billstines (any comments on the rear top mounting nuts?)]. Autoblog? eds say the little pick up is now dead (and the twins come in last - shutter Shreveport). Large pickups for grocery get'n are sitting on the lots.

    Walk away from the H2. Put together a pow-wow with GM, Mahindra or Tata or ?, and the Hummer franchisees and just change the name on the building and switch out the inventory. Although it seems that if a restaurant fails, almost every thing that uses that building seems to fail.

    We will find a body on frame with a modest towing capacity - don't need a one ton.
    The grocery getter truck bed is about as useful as a sedan. The gm wagon that wasn't, suv cuv whatever, a wagon will beat a sedan everyday if the gearing doesn't need to be changed to offset a toy motor-g v w and all that-look at what your capacity really is.
  • steverstever Posts: 52,683
    Thanks You Edmunds!

    You deserve it T_O_D. :D
  • Karen_SKaren_S Posts: 5,095
    A national news magazine reporter would like to speak with owners of a Hummer and are having buyers remorse. If you are an owner, please respond to with your daytime contact information no later than Thursday, July 24th.

    Edmunds Manager UGC Click on my screen name to send a personal message. Need help navigating? Check out Getting Started in Edmunds Forums.
    Need help picking out a make/model, finding inventory, or advice on pricing? Talk to an Edmunds Car Shopping Advisor

  • aspesisteveaspesisteve Posts: 833
    good luck to that reporter.

    from what I read hear, Hummer owners stand by their decision like loyal supporters of George Bush.

    sorry if the analogy offends anyone.
  • tidestertidester Posts: 10,059
    We discourage going political in model/make specific discussion. Political discussions tend to generate flames which we don't need.

    tidester, host
    SUVs and Smart Shopper
  • Just caught up with autoblog and the reuters story. We are still here. Surprise us. Not rockcrawlers not blingsters. Just want built like bull, bear, or whatever.
  • Maybe Edmunds already has the topic running. Caught up at insideautomotive a few days back and got the impression that a bear may want Hummer and that Cerberus needs cash from a Jeep sale. If internal combustion is dead, maybe a pow-wow is in order but bigger than smersh. Maybe the old Big Three should have one. Sedan forums malibu talk about camry, accord, malibu, with some tosses for taurus or altima or another also ran.

    Ford and Chevrolet have unique strengths and weaknesses while the only Cerberus products ever considered were a cummins diesel engine, and the jeep. Put the good points of all three together and build a few good products without plastic window regulators and plastic truck hubs.
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