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Maxima 5-speed Problems
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"The idle speed canalso be changed without an ECM reprogram; the Rep did it to my car previously."
I would like to clarify your point. You are correct in that the rep has done this on your car, but that is the ONLY person who can. A regular Nissan mechanic cannot do this.
In the service manuals where the idle speed is checked, if the idle speed is found to be wrong, the mechanic is instructed to start looking at various components that could be defective. No adjustment option is talked about or provided in the service manuals.
The idle speed is stored in the ECM, and it cannot be changed unless you have the tools to perform reprograming. The Consult tool that is used by Nissan mechanics does not provide this capability (unless the service manuals somehow fail to mention it.)
My Rep also had a whole set of printed instructions on how to flash my ECU on the car the right way when he was there the second time. It was funny, because the voltage for the actual Consultant tool has to be above a certain voltage or else you will fry the car's ECU! So of course, our Consultant tool was off by .1 volts requiring a recharge of it before the reprogramming could begin! I was kind of hoping he would fry my ECU..... Does the service manual mention the steps necessary to reprogram the ECU?
As far as controlling the idle motor, I am not sure if that is possible. When the idle speed is adjusted, I believe you are basically adjusting the point of where the plunger on the end of the idle motor stops to rest against the throttle butterfly shaft. Once you touch the gas pedal ever so slightly (.002-.006" clearance), the closed throttle switch turns off (meaning the computer sees you are off idle now), and the ECM takes control of the idle valve by measuring and setting set number of "counts" that the plunger has retracted to allow more air to flow. The higher the "counts" value, the more the idle air valve is opened and thus more air is flowing.
From what I remember of the readings I saw on the Consultant, the counts shot up from 13 at idle to about 70 or so right away proving Kevin's theory of the "overly aggressive" idle valve. I don't think there is a way to actively control the "counts" of the idle motor short of intercepting the signals sent from the ECM to the idle valve and modifying them. I don't believe that is possible to do interactively with the Consultant, but I'll definitely ask my Nissan Rep to find out for me from the DTR Rep. Who knows nowadays, since my first TPS adjustment was done by a Nissan mechanic, and he adjusted my TPS manually by applying vacuum to the plunger for the throttle shaft "pullof valve", and then using a feeler gauge to check the gap. When the DTR adjusted my TPS the second time to the tighter .002-.006" spec, he did it all through the Consultant with the engine running.
BTW, whatever happened to our buddy joenissan? It's funny, but I think Kevin and myself know more details about the Maxima and proprietary Nissan tools then our resident Nissan Tech does. Oh well, I would be interested in hearing his opinions and knowledge of what we are discussing, but he doesn't seem to bother with us here anymore. I am not being sarcastic, but am just wondering why a Nissan tech who claimed that driveline lash was the cause of our problem has not responded since Kevin's post.
Dave Z
Perhaps the regular mechanics have the ability to reprogram, but they can't do it because of EPA certifications and such. Who knows?
One thing that that I know for sure is that the service manuals don't breath a word about this capability.
I share your observations regarding Joenissan's absence. My experience of Joe is that he doesn't like to have his positions challenged.
Please keep us posted.
Bruce...
Joe
Bruce...
Joe
Its nice to know that your rep is at least aware of the fuel-cut problem.
Here is an idea: print out a copy of my post #2 and give it to him. All that I ask is that you give credit to me as the source of the information. My e:mail address is swallow@sky.net.
Also tell him that copies of that post have been sent the major auto magazines.
Actually, post #2 was made by me. Not Bruce. You made the same mistake regarding my diagnosis of the the "chirp" noise that someone has on the general Maxima thread. You thought that I was Bruce.
Bigk200 is not y2kse. We are two different people. Bigk200 (Kevin) is the one authored post #2.
Joe
Duke
By the way, I'm flattered that you keep mistaking me for Kevin. But I'm certainly not in that class. I have neither the knowledge nor the tenacity to have accomplished what he has accomplished.
Bruce...
Perhaps bigk200 can shed more light on this.
Bruce...
I know the Max warms up pretty quick and probably kicks into closed loop within a short amount of time. However, the neutral test can be done successfully for probably at least 5 minutes after a cold start. I do not know if the coolant sensor temp has to also reach a predetermined reading before the ECU starts "taking control" of the various actuators of the engine control system (idle motor, injectors, egr, etc.)
What I want to see is a comparison of the data readings when the car is first started cold and can pass the neutral test, and when it is warm. I think the best readings to grab would be the following: TPS voltage, Closed Throttle Switch, MAF, Idle Counts, Injector Pulse width, Engine Load, Coolant Temp, RPM, Closed/Open Loop detection, and probably some others I can't think about this early in the morning... lol I have a strong feeling that the idle counts will be no where near as high when the engine is in the cold state as compared to when it is warmed up.
Joenissan, maybe you would have the time to run this test with the Consultant? Also, I am pretty positive that your DTR is the same one who has worked on my car twice. If his name is Carlos, he'll know my Sterling Mist headache.... lol
Also, I believe 2000 is the first year that Nissan is using an ECU that can be reprogrammed or "flashed" while in the car. Many other manufacturers have been doing this for years, so maybe Nissan isn't used to having to come out with updated ECU programs like the one we need. In the past, I believe the whole ECU was replaced.
Dave Z
In my estimation, it will still fail the 3000 to 2000 neural test, but just at a different rpm.
I do recall however that I could actually raise the rpm's from idle to 2000 and hold it there when the engine is cold. Going from 3000 down to 2000 might be a different story however (ie. can't be done with a cold engine or a warm engine).
Your results with a cold engine might be unpredicatable and you will only get one try every 2 or 3 hours.
All in all, I think I have sorted out what the exact source of the problem is, so it comes down to Nissan either deciding to make it right or ignoring it.
Basically two of the cars would drop @ 2800 RPM right down to 1500 RPM steady, and sometimes lope @ 1500 to 1700 RPM back and forth with steady pressure still on the gas pedal. One of the cars actually dropped RPM's right as it reached around 2050 RPM or so down to 1500 RPM with a 1500 RPM to 1700 RPM lope as well. This car did this two times; the third time it also dropped @ 2800 RPM. My car ALWAYS drops @ 2500 RPM right down to idle; it has NEVER stopped at 1500. I also feel a slight stumble in the engine while the car passes 1500 RPM on its decent to idle.
Back to my post on the difference in data readings from a cold and warmed up engine. On my first video sent to Nissan, I began videotaping with my car started up for the first time of the day after being in an indoor garage all night. After 30 seconds of driving, I immediately pulled over and did the neutral tests. With the car still cold in this state, I could easily hold the RPM @ 2000 RPM in neutral. I could also bring the RPMs from 3000 down to idle or any other RPM that I wanted. After about another two or so minutes of driving, the car warmed up enough that it would fail the two tests. I still would love to see someone do some data readings on this, cause I am sure that the difference would be in the IAC motor counts thus proving Bigk200's theory to be correct. Let us all remember that he is also the one who came up with the two neutral tests.
I haven't been able to get in touch with my Nissan Rep yet, but I am still trying to see what the next step is. Let them mess with someone else's car for a while, and take mine only if they need it. After having the car in for this problem for Four(4) times already, I'm tired of wasting time with them at the dealership. The Nissan USA engineers have to get a kick where the sun dosen't shine and figure this out for themselves.
Dave Z
Has anyone seen a '01 Max review in any of the major auto mags., and if so, is there any mention of the dreaded "fuel cut" problem?
Sometimes someone will post that their car can pass this test, but when I challenge them, they either disappear or report back with findings similar to everyone elses.
My last communication with Chris Wardlaw, Editor-in-Chief of Edmunds.com, took place on September 22nd. He said he was interested in pursuing the fuel-cut issue but he asked that we give him a couple of weeks to get through the 2K+1 reviews first. I thought I'd give him about a month before sending him another e-mail.
Bruce...
After all, although we represent just a fraction of total Maxima sales, the concerns of 5 speed owners should (ideally) mean a whole lot to a company that markets their product as a "four door sports car".
I believe Chris takes this obligation seriously.
Bruce...
Mark
I knew Nissan was gonna mess up my car with that reprogramming. Ironic that the reprogram that they used was supposed to fix a cold driveability complaint, which of course I never had. The car drives now like it thinks it's -20 in Siberia!
I just left a real nasty voice mail with my Nissan rep. Time to go looking for another car soon I guess. Does Nissan mean "incompetence" in Japanese???
Dave Z
their "fix" back in February (or was it January?).
Anyway, sometimes things can get a little whacked
for some reason and it is best to stop the engine
and restart it. (By stopping, I mean turn the key
all the way to the off position and wait 2 or 3
seconds before restarting.) Sometimes that helps
to get everything reset.
I'm beginning to get the feeling that the District Reps have given up on trying to find a solution for the fuel-cut condition and are trying to ignore the issue. Anybody else getting the same idea?
Bruce...
This engine/transmission is only available in North America, so if Nissan-USA doesn't tell Japan about it, then the design engineers will never know that the problem even exists.
I seriously doubt that Nissan-Japan has even heard of the problem yet. The real problem here is Nissan-USA.
I have a friend who drives a '96 or '97 Maxima automatic. In the past, when I've ridden in his car, cruising on the highway, I've felt what I always thought was him getting on and off the gas periodically to maintain speed. However, now that I know about and have experienced this "fuel-cut" behavior in my car, it makes me wonder if what I was feeling in my friend's car was the same thing that's happening in my car. It feels the same, anyway.
I hope Nissan comes out with a revision to address this issue in the 2000+ models. I'll mention it to my dealer next time I go in for service and see how I can proceed from there. Any other suggestions would be welcome as well.
Marc
Joe
Well the message she left says they will send back the DTR Carlos to set my car back to specs, but they REFUSE to pursue the fuel cut issue any further and have no interest in Kevin's findings. After they reset my car, they will consider the issue closed. There is to be no more "fixes" for the fuel cut problem as far as I understood.
I will not take this as the end. I am in a lease with this piece of crap, and refuse to be stuck with it for three years. I will go to either arbitration or lemon law, and will be taking this matter up with as many publications and officials as I can. I might also start a class action suit. Whoever wants to help is more then welcome. Don't let Nissan take your money for a defective car.
Dave Z
Nissan is a "crap" company. They treat their customers like dirt. This is just one more example.
From what I'm being told, there have been "Hundreds" of inquiries about a fuel-cutoff condition in the 5th generation Maximas w/5 speed trannys. And although I don't quite understand it, or the answer I've been given...here it is:
The drop in RPM between 3100 and approx. 1500, is done by the TPS, not the ICV, and is not a "glitch" (as he put it). It has something to do with the variable intake which, so it seems, opens to a short runner about the 3100 RPM mark. he also said that there is a TSB on some "programmable" ECU's that have been causing similar conditions, and are currently replacing these ECU's.
That's what I got, for what it's worth. This guy has always been a real brain when it comes to these type of concerns but...if there's something else out there that he's not yet aware of, he says: "I'm sure I'll be made aware of it at a later date".
Let me know what you think !
Joe
Mark
Kevin, what do you think of the "long runner" theory? Does it sound right to you?
Bruce...
He is correct with his satement that the fuel-cut is caused by the TPS. That is exactly what happens when the "closed-throttle" position is reached on the TPS.
However, I do not agree with his opinion that this has somthing to do with the variable intake system. I thoroughly checked out this possibility, and I stand by my assessment that the engine is getting too much air through the idle control valve.
If I discover something that changes my mind, I will be the first to admit it. I'll keep you posted.
Did he really say that they have received "100's" of inquiries about this? If that is true, then I am somewhat encouraged, but it is discouraging that Nissan doesn't really understand the problem very well. If they don't understand it, then there is little chance that they can really fix it properly.
I always like to be thorough, and in this case, I want to be doubly sure.
Those are just the ones I picked from the Maximas short list of TSB's. The rep didn't know the TSB offhand.
Big....yes...Those were his exact words... "Hundreds"
Joe
I am about to register the web cite NissanMaximaProblems.com The cheapest registration I found so far is at
https://webcountry.net/1dollarsign/newsign2.shtml and it is $61 for 1 year.
Anybody wants to chip-in?
could you please send me your e-mail address? Mine is MH3023@hotmail.com
See ya!
I'll keep you all posted.
Bruce...