Turbo or No Turbo?
windowsill
Member Posts: 5
I'm selling my 2000 Jeep Wrangler and going with a more practical car.....the Subaru Forrester.
We are trying to decide between the Turbo or not. Wondering if any of you have some thoughts on the pros/cons of the two.
Our decision has come down to the turbo...which would be the XT or getting the X Limited with Navigation. I'd love the navigation....but can't afford it if we go turbo.
So...it's turbo or navigation. Is the turbo going to be that much better than the regular engine? I am used to driving the wrangler, which has a pretty powerful engine, so I'm a bit worried to go non-turbo.
Is it true that the navigation can only come with the limited's?
Thanks for all your advice!
We are trying to decide between the Turbo or not. Wondering if any of you have some thoughts on the pros/cons of the two.
Our decision has come down to the turbo...which would be the XT or getting the X Limited with Navigation. I'd love the navigation....but can't afford it if we go turbo.
So...it's turbo or navigation. Is the turbo going to be that much better than the regular engine? I am used to driving the wrangler, which has a pretty powerful engine, so I'm a bit worried to go non-turbo.
Is it true that the navigation can only come with the limited's?
Thanks for all your advice!
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I test drove both, back-to-back, last weekend, as did my wife. Both of us agreed the XT/Turbo performed and felt much better than the NA engine. We bought one, that day, (DGM), and we pick it up on Wednesday, this week!!
It's incredible that we think 170hp is not enough nowadays, remember when the original Suzuki Sidekick Sport (with the upgraded engine) had just 120hp? Base engines in there had 96hp, IIRC.
0-60 falls in the 9-10 second range for the non-turbo, and about 6 seconds for the turbo (C&D quotes 6.2 seconds). So it's not that the base engine is slow, it's that the turbo engine is ridiculously fast.
You mention you can't afford a turbo with the NAV, so you should also consider fuel costs. The turbo prefers premium fuel, and more of it. It is geared taller, so the difference is not as big as it used to be, but still, it'll cost $303 per year more for gas per the EPA estimates.
Here is what I would suggest:
Option A: turbo, but get a Garmin Nuvi 200W portable GPS, mine was just $199 delivered.
Option B: X Limited, but get a PZEV model. For $200 or so extra, you get a cleaner PZEV vehicle that makes 5 extra HP to boot, for 175hp total.
Even with option B, I would conside the portable GPS alternative, which will save you a bunch. Subaru's GPS is not the best out there, and Garmins are easier to use, IMO.
Either way I think you will like the Forester, we love ours (Limited PZEV).
Since he's posting on here, he has the internet, so he has mapquest to find directions. Navigation's not so important.
For just a bit more, the turbo mates so much better to the 4EAT. At least in Canada, the XT also comes standard with the rear spoiler and cargo mat, which we would have added on as options on the X, making the price difference even smaller.
If you never drive the turbo, you might feel fine not knowing the difference, but if you drive an X first, then an XT immediately afterwards, I think you will notice a significant difference well worth 5% more total cost of ownership.
a. The XT has more than enough power for any situation and will put a grin on your face every time you mash the accelerator.
b. The XT will still get better mpg than your Wrangler
Cons:
a. Frequently mashing the accelerator isn't going to do anything for your mpg
b. The X Limited will get even better mpg than your Wrangler
c. If you're the type that paying 20-30 cents extra per gallon for premium is going to bug you, then the XT is a bad choice.
Here's my recommendation, take a test drive in the X Limited first. As Juice pointed out, 170-175 hp really is adequate for almost any situation. If you're satisfied with its acceleration, go ahead and get the X and feel good about owning a vehicle that is so fuel efficient and practical at the same time.
For many people, once they've driven the XT, the adequate acceleration of the X suddenly seems a lot less "adequate"
-Frank
If you never drive the turbo, the X doesn't feel slow, at least for its 4 cylinder class. It gets the job done and never complains, and we've seen 34mpg during steady highway cruise.
It's not just the $300 extra per year, but also the range you give up, so you'll also fill up more frequently. I kept my last Forester for 9 years, so that adds up to a few thousand dollars over that time.
If you haul heavy loads frequently, or live at high altitudes, or just want a fast car, by all means go for the XT. You will enjoy the extra power SOME of the time, when you can go fast. That's not very often around here with all the speed cams.
For normal use, which is all most people need anyway, ours doesn't feel lacking in any way, and the luxury options pamper you ALL the time.
The secret is this - just don't sample the XT!
"The leather in our upscale test vehicle could have come out of an Italian cobbler's shop."
I can't find the other review I'm looking for, but they basically said that Subaru stole a batch of leather intended for Rolls Royce for the Forester Limited.
We didn't like the cloth on the lesser models, though I'm not sure if the XT gets better fabric (it probably does).
Having said that, what I like to do is set the temp low and then use the heated seats. :shades:
We took a long trip and my wife drove up, while I drove back. We had a friendly mileage competition.
She got 30.0mpg on her leg, but I only managed 27.0mpg coming back on the same route. Oddly enough I had less traffic, but I think my average speeds were higher, so that's why she beat me.
Not bad, though. Even with my less efficient driving, we could go more than 450 miles on a full tank of gas.
Oooohhh!!!! Good luck living that one down :P Especially considering how you've bashed her in the past for having a lead foot :shades:
Regarding the auto climate control, I refuse to use it in either of our cars. The fan revving to high speed everytime I start the engine just drives me crazy. I normally just leave the temp setting at its lowest and then manually adjust the fan speed.
Oh and yes, you can get aftermarket leather for about $1200. When I did my 04 Forester, the aftermarket Katskinz leather was a better quality than the factory's and you had a large selection of colors to choose from (I chose a two-tone with perforated inserts).
-Frank
I don't think she's slowed down, it was traffic I tell ya!
Two-tone looks great, I'd love that, but I do think the OE leather is a lot better than it used to be, so no regrets.
and all of you were right....no turning back....we are picking up our 09 XT this week!
we're so excited! can't wait to get it! thanks again all of you for your ideas!
Very responsive, not much lag.
Plenty of power for passing.
Bigger / wider tires help handling
Bad:
Premium gas is required (lower grades can trigger "check engine" light)
Oil changes are more frequent
Throttle tip-in is a bit aggressive
Turbo may not be covered by extended service plans.
---------------
Wrt auto AC, I pretty much leave it in manual mode except on hot days. Auto fan's a bit aggressive and goes to maximum speed too easily. A broader temperature range would help.
Huh? What makes you think that? :confuse:
FYI, the turbo on my 04 XT is still going strong at 66k miles.
-Frank
So you can get one, but it'll cost you 50% more.
You drive the XT, you'll buy the XT. I knew it.
We bought the 175hp PZEV engine, in Limited trim so it's an auto. It's perfectly fine.
I simply refuse to drive an XT.
1. Initial cost.
2. Premium gas cost.
3. Lower mpg, even lower if driven enjoyably.
4. More frequent maintenance required by Subaru.
5. Possible problems with turbo after warranty.
6. More power than I needed, would only use it because it was there, waste gas, get tickets.
7. Clutch and shifter were not pleasant. The plain X 5MT was easier. My Scion xB is even better.
I ended up with an LL Bean 4EAT. The power is adequate 99% of the time. There have been only a few 2-lane passes in 6000 miles where I needed the power of the turbo. The NA 4EAT gets me 25 mpg in city/suburban and 29 mpg on the highway, which is more important to me and shows that an XT would be wasted on my driving style.
So, we wanted a third vehicle and we were enthused about the Forester Turbo. We went to the service department at the dealer and asked our mechanic and the service manager independently about the Turbo. Both of them said if we were going to keep the Turbo for no more than 3 years, it was great. If we were going to keep the car for more than three years we would be looking at some significantly expensive repairs. This ended our interest in the Forester Turbo.
Before you buy, ask people who have had the car for more than three years if they have had to do any expensive repairs related to the Turbo. If you already have one, make sure your extended warranty covers the Turbo model and save all your maintenance and repair receipts.
I hope that the recent changes to the Forester included correction of whatever problems the mechanic and service manager had been seeing over the past few years. It is a great car and we'd really like to be able to buy a Turbo model one day.
Change your oil every 3k-5k with synthetic and the turbo cars do not require anything more than a non-turbo car in terms of maintenance.
-mike
I rarely keep cars for more than 6 or 7 years. For me, reliability trumps longevity. Means I spend a lot of money on cars, but also means I have some peace of mind.
Well I've had my XT for 4 years 8 months and 66k miles and have had zero issues with the turbo
-Frank
I was not willing to have to use premium gas for an XT model along with the increased maintenance.
The difference in gas price for an average driver is about $200/yr.
-mike
However for some people, it doesn’t matter how logically the facts are presented to show that compared to all the other costs of owning a vehicle, the annual $ penalty for having a turbo is really quite small. Bottom line: If you're the type of person that always searches for the cheapest gas and the thought of having to pay extra for premium at every fill-up really bothers you, then you should steer clear of the XT (or any other high performance engine for that matter).
And FYI, I’m one of those who is always on the lookout for cheap gas and always try to use stations that only charge 20 cents extra for premium. But I long ago came to terms with the fact that you have to pay to play and that since premium is recommended, that’s what I need to use. Plus when I do think about it, I just remind myself that it’s only costing me 3 bucks more per 15-gal tank of gas. That’s just a 5% surcharge at today’s fuel prices.
-Frank
I looked one up, at Fitz it's $2200 more for an XT Ltd vs. and X Ltd.
That's $4200 so far, plus you pay more for insurance every 6 months. I didn't get a quote but let's say that's another $100 every 6 months, so $1600 over the 8 year ownership period.
We're talking about maybe $6 grand or so in additional ownership costs for the face-distorting acceleration.
Oh, and when we add the extra speeding tickets, it's more like $8 grand.
A speed cam just nabbed me in my minivan (!) doing 46 in a 35. C'mon, I'm like the slowest car on the road. This is getting ridiculous.
I will put up a caveat - if I planned on using our Forester to tow, or for trips on mountainy terrain, there's no doubt I would have paid the extra for the XT.
Premium fuel surcharge = $122 (avg of 13,4k miles per year @ 22 mpg)
Additional oil changes = $50 (2 x $25)
Insurance = $0 (If you're insurer charges extra I'd change companies!)
So the total additional annual cost is $172.
IRT the initial aquisition cost, yes the XT costs $2,200 extra but it will also be worth more when you sell it. According to Edmunds, an 04 XT is worth $1,200 more than an 04 XS. So a $1k difference in cost amoritized over 8 years comes out to only $10.42 per month! :P
-Frank
That is good.
"Recently, the turbocharger on my Forester scorched a bearing due to an oil seal that let loose. The dealer wanted $2380 for a stock turbocharger plus installation of $400. The car has 70000 miles and is out of warranty."
paisan, "subaru transmission problems" #6, 7 May 2007 8:17 pm
"... I take it to my mechanic.....TURBO IS BLOWN!!!!!! The car only has 135,000 KM's on it! I always ensured I allowed the turbo to spool down after driving it. The oil was changed every 5,000 KM's. The fix is gonna cost me between $3-4,000."
http://www.subaruforester.org/vbulletin/f88/new-owner-turbo-blown-31258/
And even with the two examples you gave:
a. The first was bought used so there's no telling how it was driven. One of the replies to that post says it best:
"you buy a used car with that amount of mile's and then you complain because the turbo went out? did you expect the car to go a million miles with out ever having to replace a major part?"
b. With the 2nd example, I can't tell for sure but since the poster was looking to upgrade his turbo with one that provides more HP, I'm guessing that he probably drove it pretty "spiritedly".
Of course Subaru's aren't perfect (no manufacturer is) so yes, there's always the potential that a turbo will fail but then so might the head gaskets or any number of other expensive to repair items.
-Frank
As for maintenance, if you read the specs, the "severe" interval for the NA cars is 3,000 miles as well, so the oil changes are probably not even an extra cost. If you drive the car hard, sit in traffic, take short trips, etc. Those are all considered 3k changes even on the NA cars.
-mike
Motorsports and Modifications Host
Why get a turbo, then? :P
For insurance, are you sure you don't pay more for a performance model? Check again, a Legacy GT costs a lot more to insure than a Legacy L (when I was quoted in 2002). I'm pretty positive you'd see a difference to insure a Forester turbo vs. a non-turbo.
I didn't actually get a quote, but I would be SHOCKED if the turbo engine didn't increase your insurance premiums.
As for resale, you looked at 2004s, which are only 4 years old. After 8 years the resale advantage will be a lot smaller. Valid point, but we're talking maybe $500 extra in resale value, not $1200. Plus it's harder to sell a turbo that requires premium fuel, fewer buyers would be interested.
I'm sure the actual number is somewhere between mine and yours. Closer to mine.
This has been an interesting thread. I think, ultimately, the decision between turbo and non-turbo has to come down to the value you place on power and acceleration, your own particular situation (I bought my turbo for mountain driving) and your financial situation. Even 7-8K over an 8 year period is considered pocket change to a lot of people...and, a lot of money to a lot of people, like me!! I have to say that I love my turbo and I've made peace with the financial hit. I wish I could say the same for my wife! I think there is some value to feeling that rush of 224 horsepower.
I was happy the 2009s got a 16.9 gallon tank because it meant I could drive an extra 25 miles per tank.
Basically you delay having to get gas for a couple of days, every tankful.
Not really. We obviously don't do jack rabbit starts away from every light but do regularly take advantage of the turbo.
I didn't actually get a quote, but I would be SHOCKED if the turbo engine didn't increase your insurance premiums.
When I traded my 01 Forester for the 04 the premium only went up marginally and was in line with the difference in replacement cost. Why do you think the turbo should cost more? Maybe in a sports car there will be a premium but Forester owners aren't likely to be drag racing (although if they did they'd be pretty competitive)
As for resale, you looked at 2004s, which are only 4 years old.
Well duh! 04 was the first year the turbo was offered so I couldn't go back any further :P
Plus it's harder to sell a turbo that requires premium fuel, fewer buyers would be interested.
Quite possibly true but don't you think the resale/trade-in formulas already take that into account?
I'm sure the actual number is somewhere between mine and yours. Closer to mine
Hmm... I'm still pretty comfortable that my number is pretty accurate.
Face it Juice, you're just trying to rationalize reasons not to buy the XT. Rather than try and convince yourself that it costs a lot more, you should stick to the tried and true arguments that the non-turbo gets better gas mileage (it does), has perfectly acceptable acceleration (it does) and will keep your wife from getting too many speeding tickets (undoubtedly true) :shades:
-Frank
P.S. If you're nice, maybe I'll let you test drive my 5.3 sec 0-60 350Z killer when I move to DC next April
If both cars got stolen or totaled she would get more money from the ins. company even though it is a year older, so she pays more.
Yes, that is all that I found out of thousands.
So under the same driving conditions, just maintain your turbo like an NA and you should do fine, right?
"... Caring for Subaru Turbocharged Engines ... The following information updates factory recommendations for the care and maintenance of new Subaru turbocharged vehicles... Due to heat generated by the turbocharger and carbon deposits contained in exhaust gas, the oil in a turbocharged engine will deteriorate faster than the oil in a naturally aspirated engine. Therefore, special care should be taken to use proper grade oil and to monitor oil deterioration. Under normal driving conditions, the recommended oil and oil filter change
interval for turbo vehicles is every 3,750 miles or four months, whichever comes
first. However, for vehicles driven in conditions beyond normal, such as racing
conditions, the oil and oil filter may require more frequent changing... Any driving where the engine speed is kept high – either by using lower gears at higher speeds or using engine braking – is considered racing-type driving. A “track day” or autocross event requires an oil and oil filter change immediately before and immediately after the event.... Carbon deposits produced by a turbocharged engine can accumulate at the bottom of the oil pan. When changing the oil, always drain the oil through the oil drain plug hole on the oil pan..."
http://www.drive.subaru.com/Sum08/Sum08_Turbo.htm
I just got nailed by a speed cam doing 46 in a 35. Gimme a break. I'm the slowest minivan on the road! Randolph Road has 3 lanes in that area, 3 lanes, and it's just 35mph.
266hp = speeding ticket
175hp = no speeding ticket
At least there are no points assigned. I've been nabbed twice in the Miata and once in the van. Usually in places where they set the speed limit artificially low (25mph on MacArthur Blvd).
You're moving to DC? Really? Cool, yeah I definitely want to drive it again.
Though you're going to have to trade it in else you'll be getting tickets like those on a weekly basis.
Bob's been nailed twice in the DC area with his WRX, and he lives closer to Baltimore! :surprise:
So under the same driving conditions, just maintain your turbo like an NA and you should do fine, right?
"... Caring for Subaru Turbocharged Engines ... The following information updates factory recommendations for the care and maintenance of new Subaru turbocharged vehicles... Due to heat generated by the turbocharger and carbon deposits contained in exhaust gas, the oil in a turbocharged engine will deteriorate faster than the oil in a naturally aspirated engine. Therefore, special care should be taken to use proper grade oil and to monitor oil deterioration. Under normal driving conditions, the recommended oil and oil filter change
interval for turbo vehicles is every 3,750 miles or four months, whichever comes
first. However, for vehicles driven in conditions beyond normal, such as racing
conditions, the oil and oil filter may require more frequent changing... Any driving where the engine speed is kept high – either by using lower gears at higher speeds or using engine braking – is considered racing-type driving. A “track day” or autocross event requires an oil and oil filter change immediately before and immediately after the event.... Carbon deposits produced by a turbocharged engine can accumulate at the bottom of the oil pan. When changing the oil, always drain the oil through the oil drain plug hole on the oil pan..."
http://www.drive.subaru.com/Sum08/Sum08_Turbo.htm
That's all pretty vaguely written. So what's "more frequently than 3750? 3k? I always change mine at 3k-5k miles on my cars and no issues. Heck my 94 turbo legacy went 150k miles with 10k+ track miles (6000 rpms for 2hrs at a time) and never burned a drop of oil.
-mike
To keep this post on topic though, I don't think having more HP increases your chances of getting a speeding ticket, although it does get you to the speed limit faster. The key is to know your speed and keep it below the photo radar's threshold.
Interestingly enough, both my wife and I have discovered that it's easier to speed in the XT than the SLK. Uh oh, I think I just made an argument against getting a turbo
-Frank
P.S. Yep looks like we'll be moving to DC next April.
-mike
-Frank
Here they are everywhere, plus my old detector would false a lot. A ton actually.
Not to mention they're illegal in VA, which I go to on occasion.
I dunno, Frank, the wife used to get a lot of tickets with her old V6 sedan. She dropped to a 4 cylinder Legacy and didn't get a single ticket in 7 years.
Definitely driver's fault but the extra power sure doesn't help in that regard.
Oh well then, that options out... I'll be living and working in VA.
For some reason I thought that radar detectors were illegal in MD? Seems like when I used to drive up I-81, you had to be careful on that short stretch that goes thru MD.
-Frank
Move to MD Frank, not VA.
Bob
Oh boy, you're gonna hate northern VA traffic. Watch, your next car will be a CVT Prius.
Technology is pretty nifty!
-mike