Voided or Denied Warranty Experiences

Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaMember Posts: 64,482
I started this discussion after reading a most interesting case over in our "Answers" department, and it prompted me to wonder a) if anyone has heard of the situation I am about to describe and b) if YOU have had a warranty denied, warranty claim denied, or were in a warranty dispute and how did it resolve itself?

THE INTERESTING CASE:

Someone purchased a used but fairly new Volvo from a Mitsubishi dealer. After receiving the car, he went for warranty service at a Volvo dealer because his car definitely had warranty remaining on time and miles.

However, the Volvo dealer said his warranty was "partially" voided, with regards only to the fuel system, based on the actions of the previous owner!

Ever heard of anything like this? I never have in all my years.

Do you have similar experiences of the shock of having a warranty you were EXPECTING to be honored, to fall apart for one reason/claim/situation or another?

Shiftright
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Comments

  • volvomaxvolvomax Member Posts: 5,238
    Not that unusual.
    Prev owner probably modified the fuel system in some way and got caught.

    This is mostly an issue w/ modded cars.
    Was this an S60R by any chance?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaMember Posts: 64,482
    Don't recall.

    I wonder about the legality of such a partial voiding of the warranty. I mean, wouldn't the manufacturer have to wait until there was some damage, before the denial? How can you deny a claim that hasn't happened yet?

    What modification were you thinking of for an S60R? I'm curious.
  • volvomaxvolvomax Member Posts: 5,238
    The manufacturer usually can't partially void a warranty until a repair claim has been filed and an aftermarket part or system has been noted.

    Let's say I put some aftermarket springs on my car, then I take it in complaining about unusual tire wear.
    The service dept notes the springs, the manufacturer sees the claim and flags the suspension.
  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 14,597
    ...contain numerous posts describing how some Mitsubishi and Mazda dealers have fully or partially voided warranties due to mods. Apparently there is no consistent policy regarding mods, as some dealers are nixing warranties due to aftermarket cold air intakes while other dealers look the other way and ignore stuff like piggyback boost contollers and de-catted turbo back exhausts.

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  • volvomaxvolvomax Member Posts: 5,238
    First of all, DEALERS cannot void warranties.
    Your warranty isn't with your dealer. It is with the builder of your car.
    Now, some dealers are more easygoing when it comes to modded cars.
    However,if a modded part causes a failure, the dealer cannot get the manufacturer to pay the warranty claim. No way, no chance.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaMember Posts: 64,482
    Yes that is correct. The factory burns the dealer and the dealer burns the customer, on a warranty denial.

    Dealers can't void the warranty. I presume what they do is check with the Zone Office before they submit a claim to see if the factory will go for it or not, prior to making the repair? (if they are in doubt I mean).
  • volvomaxvolvomax Member Posts: 5,238
    Yep.
    A dealer knows that any iffy claim is going to have to be greenlighted by the motor co first.
    Otherwise, the dealer will have to eat the claim.

    Some dealers are real sticklers,esp when dealing w/ modded cars.
    Others are more easygoing.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaMember Posts: 64,482
    Question is, how is a used car buyer supposed to know when he's buying a car with a partly voided warranty? This is not going to show up on CARFAX. It's not like when you buy a used car with a salvage title, then you KNOW there's no warranty no matter if the car has 10 miles on it.

    I guess with the tremendous upsurge in modding, this partial warranty scenario was inevitable.
  • volvomaxvolvomax Member Posts: 5,238
    Easy, buy a CPO car.
  • mitzijmitzij Member Posts: 613
    If you want to know the warranty status on a car, get the VIN and call a local dealer. We can run the VIN and check warranty status, recalls, that sort of thing. Some dealers may not give out warranty claim history, but all should give status and recalls. Ask for the service department. It's no big deal, we do it all the time.
  • fordfoolfordfool Western New YorkMember Posts: 240
    About thirty years ago my Ford 2.3L engine developed premature cylinder wear (piston slap). Fortunately my brother-in-law was a Ford mechanic and knew Ford has a "secret" extended warranty for the problem.

    Seems some Ford engineer figured that a few cents could be saved by not drilling oil lube holes in the connecting rods. Problems began to appear in cold climates where cold starts were causing excessive cylinder wear.

    The district Ford rep examined my engine, noting that I had the car serviced regularly and had a Motorcraft oil filter installed. Out-of-warranty engine and transmission rebuilds were approved.

    Lesson…keep up with scheduled maintenance using approved parts.
  • mattandimattandi Member Posts: 588
    Was the fuel system what the new owner needed to have serviced?
    Was the partial void something that had already been established or did that determination happen when the new owner took the car in for service?

    Sounds like the new owner needed the service pretty soon after buying the car. Do you know if that was the case?
  • mattandimattandi Member Posts: 588
    Used cars have the FTC required buyers guide sticker on them. It may state that the balance of the manufacturer's warranty is in effect. Do used car dealers routinely make the simple phone call you suggest before they check that box on the sticker?
  • volvomaxvolvomax Member Posts: 5,238
    I'd have to say no.

    A used car re-seller isn't responsible for the manufacturers warranty.
    What it covers, or what it doesn't.
    All the form does is let you know that such coverage exists.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaMember Posts: 64,482
    Gee I dunno. Seems to me if you buy a car BASED primarily on what someone tells you to be true, and it's not, that still holds the seller responsible....not for FRAUD (as you say, maybe he didn't know) but certainly for misrepresentation.

    If I sell you my car, and tell you that "my mechanic rebuilt the engine", because that's what my mechanic said to me, and then you find out that in fact all that was done was a head gasket and valve job, well I'm still in the hole for misrepresenting the car to you. I wasn't defrauding you, because hell I didn't know exactly what the mechanic did...I don't even know what a rebuilt engine IS....(for the sake of argument)....but you bought the car because you were counting on a rebuilt engine for that car.
  • mattandimattandi Member Posts: 588
    That would also be my guess. I realize the re-seller is not responsible for the details of a manufacturer warranty, what's covered, what the limitations and exclusions are, and so on. It is generally pretty easy to find out what those details are. Most mods that may void the warranty are usually spelled out as well.

    It is an interesting issue. All my questions so far focus on when the voiding of the warranty happened. Shifty's OP is a little unclear on that. The only indication is the mention of actions by the previous owner, but that is iffy. The manufacturer would only know it was actions of the previous owner if the warranty void had occurred earlier. Otherwise they would have no idea when the mod happened.

    Most likely the new owner is just going to have to bite the bullet on any repairs to the fuel system, but . . .

    If the partial void had happened prior to the re-sale of the car, the buyer may have some recourse with the re-seller. The buyers guide said the warranty was in effect at the time the sale was made. That was not the case. Uphill battle for the new owner, but worth pushing at least a little.

    If the partial void happened when the new owner took the car in for service and the mod was discovered, then he is just SOL. Even a check on the warranty status at the time of the sale would not have made any difference. A once over by a qualified technician may have picked up on the mod, but maybe not.
  • mattandimattandi Member Posts: 588
    How far do we want to go with holding a dealer responsible for ignorant or negligent misrepresentation? I'm inclined to only hold them to what they reasonably can or should know. I would still push the issue if it ended up costing me money though, ignorance and negligence notwithstanding.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaMember Posts: 64,482
    I don't know all the details. The poster never followed up. Basically he bought a used Volvo from a dealer (non Volvo) and later on found out his car had only a partial warranty, the "fuel system" portion being voided. I don't think he has any idea why it was voided on this item. I can only presume modifications, such as....what? larger injectors? some gas-saving scam like "water for gas" or some such?
  • volvomaxvolvomax Member Posts: 5,238
    All the form states is that the manufacturers warranty still applies.
    Whatever that warranty is.
    Since the re-seller isn't telling you exactly what that warranty does and doesn't cover, it's not misrepresentation.

    Now, if you tell someone that something IS covered under a manufacturers warranty and it isn't, then you have a case.

    Bottom line, if you want to be protected, buy a CPO car.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaMember Posts: 64,482
    Let's agree to disagree on that. I think it is misrepresentation. Claiming no knowledge of the omission does not get you off the hook legally IMO, because the buyer assuming there's a full warranty was a CRITICAL factor in his decision to buy the car. If the dealer has merely said "she runs great" and it craps out, that's okay. But when he advertises "remainder of factory warranty" on the window sticker and there isn't one, uh-uh, that is, to my mind, definitely not good.

    I vote for the plaintiff, if I have been given the facts straight I mean.
  • volvomaxvolvomax Member Posts: 5,238
    But when he advertises "remainder of factory warranty" on the window sticker and there isn't one, uh-uh, that is, to my mind, definitely not good.

    Actually, in the case in point, there was factory warranty remaining. Just not on a certain system.
    That is a far cry from saying that NO warranty was left.
    If a dealer had indicated that the factory warranty was still in effect, and it had ENTIRELY expired, either due to miles or time, then you would have a case.
    There is just no way that a used car dealer,e sp one with dozens, if not hundreds of cars can determine the exact warranty status, or what coverage is actually available.
    Some things a responsible buyer must do for themselves.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaMember Posts: 64,482
    Again, I don't know all the facts of this case, so it's unclear to me who is right and who is wrong here.

    If the box checked "warranty" was viewed by the seller, yes, he should have asked what that means. I agree with you then. "What kind of warranty?"

    But if he was told the car had "the factory warranty", and not told that it was "partial", then IMO the car was misrepresented and the dealer is wrong, whether he gave that info intentionally or not.
  • volvomaxvolvomax Member Posts: 5,238
    But if he was told the car had "the factory warranty", and not told that it was "partial", then IMO the car was misrepresented and the dealer is wrong, whether he gave that info intentionally or not.

    Actually he was told that it had the REMAINING factory warranty, which is true.

    How many u/c dealers know what the Volvo warranty even is?
    Prob not many.
    I couldn't give you the particulars of Nissan's warranty, or BMW's.

    It's very easy to say, the dealer is wrong.
    But, it's not the dealers fault.
    Ultimate responsibility rests w/ the buyer.
    All the buyer had to do was call a local Volvo dealer w/ the VIN and get the warranty history.
    Or, they could have paid a few bucks more and gone w/ a Volvo CPO car that would have guaranteed a warranty.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaMember Posts: 64,482
    so if I tell you that you can have the remaining sandwiches from the picnic does that mean they can all have a big bite out of them? :P

    You'd make a great defense lawyer but that last little bit sounds weak to me.

    I'm just sayin'....
  • exb0exb0 Member Posts: 539
    I am not a lawyer, however, it seem to me that the burden of proof would fall on the expert that is the u/c manager.

    How many people would know to a call a Volvo dealer to determine what the remaining warranty is? Better yet, how many people know there is such thing as partial warranty? On the other hand, the u/c manager should know how to verify this and disclose all the information.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaMember Posts: 64,482
    My argument was that proof is not even required here. You wouldn't have to prove that the dealer was trying to deceive you. I think you could still win the case even if the dealer proved he had no knowledge whatsoever of the partial warranty.

    Without AS IS, the dealer is definitely in jeopardy, IMO.
  • volvomaxvolvomax Member Posts: 5,238
    look, all the form states is that the remaining manufacturers warranty still applies.
    WHATEVER that warranty entails.
    It is not a requirement of the u/c dealer to state what that warranty covers or doesn't cover.
    The form is only to let the consumer know that there IS warranty.
    You are asking WAYYYYY too much from a u/c dealer.
    It ain't gonna happen.

    Heck, there is a local dealer here that specializes in Lemon Law cars.
    In AZ, a Lemon Law buyback doesn't have to be disclosed at all.
    Guess what? This guy doesn't.
    Yes, it's shady. but, that is the U/C business.
    If you want to deal w/ reputable people, buy a CPO used car from a new car store.
  • spiegesspieges Member Posts: 2
    I would like to tell you a story of a big corporation against a lonely customer. I have made every effort and spent over 4 hours on the phone trying to plead my case. You can decide who is right! Please email me at [email protected] and I will forward your comments on! Thank you for your help.

    I bought an 2008 Certified used Denali from Memering Motorplex in Indiana on 7/7/11 with 31k. On the first oil change I brought the vehicle in at 39k on 11/28/11 to Lou Fuze in St. Louis a GMC dealer. This according to the light indicator by the free oil and tire rotation per GMC deal. I informed them that the front brake was squeaking. The sales rep called me back and said the front left brake Pad needs to be replaced and it is not covered under warranty.

    He informed me that there is not any brake pad left at all. The certified inspection that came with my car stats all brake pads have .8 mm. New pads are .12mm. So how could I go down from .8mm to 0 in 8,000 miles and less than 5 months.

    To illustrate how this is completely wrong even farther. I bought this used Yukon because I had a leased 07 Yukon before this for 4 years and put on 70,000 miles. Never once had it in the shop for repairs or brake pads. Every person I have talked to has either said GMC will never help me or that it must be my driving habits.

    So to GMC, if you say it is a certified car and inspected by a mechanic approved by GMC and there is a problem with the inspection what happens? Is GMC telling me that the inspection never fails? What did I buy a certified car for? For an inspection that has no backing to it. Also the motto today at GMC certified website that “No worries to a whole new level” Well I am worried that I paid a premium for a vehicle that was not inspected correctly. Also on the website it tells us that our car has $2,135 worth of additional value. Well that is an expensive oil change and tire rotation.

    I have contacted the GMC customer service line and they said they are not covering this and that is there final decision. I think any reasonable person would see there is a mistake on the inspection. And if there wasn’t a mistake on the inspection than there is a fault part somewhere. I am not a mechanic but I know something does not add up! After 4 hours on the phone I drafted an email hoping that someone would not see this as a black and white issue rather a mistake during the inspection process. Here is GMC official response

    “Again, I have reviewed your request 71-1013008707 with the GMC Customer Assistance Center and I support the decision that has been previously stated to you. I apologize that the decision was not in accordance with your wishes, however; this is the final decision of General Motors. Please feel free to contact us again with any other concerns you may have outside of this issue.”

    As I stated to every customer care operator and in an email I drafted to GMC I will spend as much time telling my story as they wasted my time talking about an common sense issue.

    GMC you lost a life time customer this week!!!! I expect to be refunded for the brake pads, certified reinspection at an independent dealer and to ADD 1 year bumper to bumper warranty to my Vehicle. None of this would be required if you would back your inspection!!! I have already filed complaints and will continue until this is resolved.

    Thank You
    Lonely customer!
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H EdmundsAdministrator Posts: 11,114
    I'm sorry for your disappointing experience; however, everyone here is likely to tell you the same thing I'm going to say - brake pads are a wear & tear item, and aren't covered by any warranty. If you never had to replace brake pads after 70,000 miles on your previous vehicle, you are EXTREMELY fortunate. Brake pads are like tires - they wear out, and have to be replaced every so often. The brake pads on your vehicle may have been poor quality pads, but there's just no way any company is going to provide a warranty that covers items that are meant to wear out.

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  • spiegesspieges Member Posts: 2
    This was ceritied inspected less than 5 months ago and 8k. That means every 12k miles I will need new brakes. There was a problem with the "GMC certified inspection"
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaMember Posts: 64,482
    edited November 2011
    Well it's possibly the technician made an error but how could you ever prove this? Also, the expense involved in new pads is not so great that you should waste too much time on it---you did your best. If I were in your shoes, I'd just get the new pads out of your own pocket and then keep an eye on the brake pad wear. If the wear remains excessive you might have a case for an adjustment next time--if it doesn't wear excessively, then you have that peace of mind at least.

    but at this rate, you're just going to sour yourself on the truck, and it might turn out to be a good vehicle after all.
  • robr2robr2 BostonMember Posts: 8,863
    Keep in mind that GMC did not do the inspection on the vehicle prior to certifying it - the dealer in Indiana did it.

    Have you contacted them? IMHO, they are the ones you should speak with.
  • fezofezo Manahawkin, NJMember Posts: 10,379
    Indeed. The dealer is the problem here and you aren't likely to get satisfaction out of it.

    I had the same thing happen with my Honda Ody - brake pads. Brought it in for an oil change and already the brake pads were below spec. The CPO inspection requires them to be much better but they talked circles all day and corporate Honda, who I have normally found very helpful too the position that it was between me and the dealer. I've been a long time Honda guy but I just replaced that van with a Toyota.
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  • penn2penn2 Member Posts: 119
    Hello - I am not sure if this is the right forum but am trying to understand what recourse I may have with the recently announced Saab bankruptcy.

    I am 9 months into a 3 year lease of a 2011 Saab. My dealerhship just informed me I no longer have warranty (4 years, 50k miles) coverage on any level, including the free maintainance for the duration of lease.

    I am leasing through Ally Financial. Is this a breach of contract? Can I be released from a lease based on these circumastances or should/can Ally honor warranty? After all, I have contract with them, not Saab for the car

    Any advice or guidance would be appreciate

    Thank you
  • robr2robr2 BostonMember Posts: 8,863
    You're probably out of luck.

    Your warranty and maintenance contract is with SAAB. Ally was just the one the provided the financing on it. Since SAAB is no more, your contract is null and void.
  • cadillacmikecadillacmike Member Posts: 543
    You're SOL on this one. Brake pads are not covered, and did YOU check them yourself first???

    Yukons are VERY HEAVY vehicles and will eat up front brake pads. Even if they were originaly in certified spec, it is entirely possible you ate them up.

    Lastly, as it was stated, front brake pads are inexpensive, and if you have any mechanical ability, you do them in 1 hour. Less than $35 for a set of pads, a can of brake cleaner and if the pads don't come with a little tube of disc brake quite will cost less than $40 total incl the pads.

    Saab situation - ok if you bought one while GM still owned it, but otherwise hope it doesn't break until they sort this out!
  • penn2penn2 Member Posts: 119
    thanks robr2....figured as much

    Would like to then render my lease agreement null & void!
  • robr2robr2 BostonMember Posts: 8,863
    Good luck. Your lease agreement is still with Ally. I doubt very much they'll let you out of the lease.

    BTW, I presume you got a screaming lease deal.
  • penn2penn2 Member Posts: 119
    HA! I did.....and that alone should have made me suspicious LOL. Lesson learned
  • jprocjproc Member Posts: 135
    I would guess you have solid grounds for getting out of your lease.You agreed to pay "x" in exchange for a car which among other things had a warranty and a maintenance agreement.Since neither of those conditions exist anymore (through no fault of yours) I would think you have signifcant grounds for terminating the lease or,at a minimum, receiving compensation for the loss of warranty and maintenance contract.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaMember Posts: 64,482
    edited December 2011
    That would be nice but I'm not so sure. The leasing company just bought the car from the factory, to lease to the leasee. They aren't providing the warranty. In theory, the leasing company could argue that they are just as aggrieved as the leasee, since they will one day own the car.
  • penn2penn2 Member Posts: 119
    Thanks jproc -- I would want to believe that as well .... a lot still needs to be worked out at the dealer level so , anything is possible
  • craigosaabcraigosaab Member Posts: 1
    Has anyone with a Ally lease had any success voiding the lease? The lease includes full manufactures warranty which is now void with the bankruptcy. Since Ally owns the car, seems they should be willing to void the remaining lease contract. Twice I called Ally and their customer service department said they will cover any possible warranty claims. Also twice, Saab dealers said not true, as they have no way of getting paid. I think Ally should have this problem, not the customer since they own the car and checked the box on the lease offering full manufacturers warranty. Anyone else battled this?
  • penn2penn2 Member Posts: 119
    craigosaab- yes, have exact same battles with Ally Customer service to void lease...and no, have had no luck whatsoever. Have tried 4 different times since announcement of bankruptcy. Same run-around. They don't seem really equipped to deal with the situation. Either that or they're great at avoidance. They told me they WOULD cover warranties and gave an 800 # for my Saab dealer service manager to call. He did and was told they could not help. Extremely frustrating. I am just one year into a 3 year lease and while I believe it's a solid car, it could be a ticking financial bomb.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,457
    If you were recently denied auto warranty coverage for a surprising reason, please email [email protected] no later than Wednesday, January 9, 2013 to tell your story to a reporter.
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