The Koreans and Japanese have been helping their auto industry for years with favorable taxes, loans and other government programs. U.S. automakers do not enjoy the same level playing field in Korea as the Koreans enjoy in the U.S. I fully believe the U.S. government should give the big 3 the money they need. However there should be stipulations. Invest the money into re-tooling plants here in the U.S., invest in new drive train technologies. Build the next generation of automobiles here in the U.S. Start a new revolution in car building and technologies.
I agree. Most of the time those come on ads are for the purple car they have had on the lot for 8 months. I have never leased a car, as it seemed such a rip-off when you added the hidden costs. Unless you can write it all off, it is not a good deal.
Start a new revolution in car building and technologies.
One revolution would be to manufacture efficiently. The Detroit 3 have been hobbled by UAW requirements for job banks and work rules. The loan should require that these change in a big way.
I recall that the jobs bank was created as a by-product of GMs move to robots. We can't get more efficient when we pay people to do nothing.
The loan should require that these change in a big way.
Well unless the UAW agrees that isn't going to happen without bankruptcy. And if you give them a loan they're not going bankrupt until that $25B is wasted. They need to go bankrupt first, get rid of all the bad contracts and agreements they have, and then set new competitive work-rules and wages.
hey, are you another one of us who now live or who did live(me-self included)live in the Seattle-Tacoma-Lynnwood-Everett-Burlington area of western Washington? I hadn't noticed that before with your postings.
As fas as building cars for the masses ever again in the U.S., it would take something huge in bringing GM to it's once-mighty knees. They need to build even more smaller cars that (Chevy Beat), like the Chevy Cruze, get good ghastly mileage. But you're right, they should concentrate on new drive technologies. But not just the same raspberry jelly donut and Starbuck's coffee approach that's putting them in an early grave.
If the masses of people in the U.S. can't afford a fuel cell/hydrogen/all-electric car developed by GM, they've effectively shot themselves in the foot.
And right now there's too many of them(UAW members)to clothe and feed and rape the GM coffers with. Too many money-grubbing clubheads and not enough good brainpower left over from those glorious car-building days of the 60's.
I don't see them surviving another year, even with Obama cash in their jelly-stained hands.
Seems to me the big corps have shifted so much of their manufacturing overseas, thereby eliminating thousands of American jobs, they've cut off the hand that was feeding them, and now they want us (the ones who are now without jobs) to bail them out. Looks like their greed has caught up to them. Well, we just can't afford that kind of support anymore, thanks to our not-so-American corporations. Apparently they weren't so concerned about the country's economy when they eliminated all our jobs. Let them ask China or India to bail them out and see what kind of response they get. If that doesn't work out for them, bring our jobs back and maybe we'd feel better about helping them out and demonstrating our loyalty to this deeply wounded country.
Realizing of course that none of this will change anything -- the government will do what the government wants anyway, with total disregard to the objections of the people, but if we must bail them out, then I say we negotiate a better deal than what we're getting - which is basically nothing! Where's the justification in helping those who won't help us? In order to get something, they have to give a little - and they could start by bringing the manufacture of American products back home to America where it belongs. .
See this article: Corporations Doubled the Number of Jobs Sent Overseas in Three Years link title
and this one: Outsource domestic car manufacturing to India? link title
Readily available oil is less than $2 a gallon for 95 of the last 100 years. After a hundred and 20 years over which the ICE has been developed and perfected, we now have hundreds of powertrains to choose from.
What if the $3-4 gas was part scam, part wake up call. Look at the aftermath around the world. The people behind it probably lost more than they made, when you look at the last 3 and next 3 years in total. Even the guy who still has a V8 is driving it less and will continue some habits formed over the last 8 months.
Most people have needs that an electric vehicle will not fulfill. When will we have a serious selection of electric vehicles that can tow boats, haul 1000 load 1000 miles each way in a day or two, and double as a daily commuter.
I find it hard to believe that even $10 a day is a catastrophe in fuel costs for the average working family. An ICE will get the job done. An electric car will be expensive to launch. The gas price that makes electric cars seem affordable have been shown to sink the entire world, economically.
The "Fit is Go" is still hard to argue with. The wake up call is to keep spending R&D to bring down the cost of the electric car, but competing with $1.75 gas for a new $17,000 34 mpg ICE car is tough. Nobody's going to 'make' money doing it.
Nevertheless, why such a small amount of cars imported into such a large car market???
I can only guess, but these are the likely reasons : 1. Gas prices are high in Japan, parking is cramped, and the roads are usually narrow and twisty (due to mountainous terrain). So smaller cars are more popular. 2. Japan is very strong in small cars, so hard for other countries to compete. Inside Japan we even have 600cc cars, which very few countries make. And the price points are very competitive (so hard to import such a low price car and compete).
I guess if the "market share" at the high end is calculated, the imports would have a much bigger market share. For instance, Lexus is still way below BMW. You can see the inordinately high percentage of Hummers in the total GM sales in Japan.....
I understand that the cars are very small. As far as competing, VW, Fiat, Ford, GM, Renault, ALL make small cars that get rave reviews worldwide (Ford I speak of their European branch, and GM through Vauxhall and Holden). All made in RHD. Common sense would tell you that if the cars were available in Japan for a reasonable price, you would see a greater market share for the "imports" just based on the sheer number of models available.
Bermuda has the same type of roads you speak of for Japan, except I don't think Hamilton is any more congested than say Boston downtown, yet the variety of cars driven there would make your head spin.
You'd be hard pressed to convince me that the Japanese government doesn't have the heaviest hand in the low number of imported cars.
Is 30 mpg hyped? My 6600 mile a year commute costs $1.88 less a month in a 31 mpg car than in a 29 mpg car. If gas were to return to $3 a gallon, the monthly difference grows to $3.65 less in gas for the car getting 2 more mpg.
All circles back to not supporting America for whatever reason, now including $1,88 a month in gas costs by not getting over 30 mpg.
The cost of gas even when it hit $4.50 here in CA was not the reason for dropping GM vehicles after nearly 20 years of being pleased with GM. It was going to cheap materials and poor build quality. I wanted a QUIET large SUV. You would think that GM could handle that. My 2005 GMC PU had wind noise that nearly drowned out the great Bose sound system. It was due to fitting the doors properly. If I pulled on the door handle while cruising down the highway at 75 MPH it would quiet down. The dealer was unable to fix it. Even then I would have bought a new Denali if the dealer had treated me decent.
I say let GM DIE and the sooner the better. There are companies building good vehicles in the USA that are quiet when cruising down the highway.
All circles back to not supporting America for whatever reason,
Mine was wanting an AWD mid-size sedan (mazdaspeed6), w/270hp 4-cyl, stability control, Bose stereo and Xenon headlights, and temp. control for an OTD price of $22,200 after rebates. Mazda had it; the Big3 had nothing comparable.
If all Americans thought this way, we would still be driving cars with 80's technology.
What's wrong with that? I still do! I have no problem with either my 1988 Buick Park Avenue and 1989 Cadillac Brougham! I know somebody on Edmunds who still drives cars with 1950s, 1960s, and 1970s technology. :P
I understand the Japanese people love potato chips, but their government tariffs them like a confection - thus making U.S. potato chips prohibitively expensive.
GM could build a small car for the Japanese market that makes a Corolla or a Civic look like a 1948 Crosley assembled at the Zastava works, and they'd still be forbidden to sell it in Japan or it would be tariffed so high that the average Japanese might as well spend the money on an S-Class Mercedes.
Well, they were buddies in WWII and, by the looks of it, they never let go of their global ambitions. They couldn't beat us in a military conflict, so they're destroying us faster in an economic conflict faster than you can print a counterfeit five pound banknote.
Heck, if I had the power, I'd toss Toyota, Honda, and others out, confiscate their U.S. plants and divide them among the Big Three. I'd also forbid the Japanese from ever selling another one of their vehicles here again. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Heck, they won't let us into their market, so they don't get into ours! Let's see how fast and how far they fall without the NA market! Will they go to China? The Chinese hate their guts and for good reasons! There are plenty of anti-Japanese rallies going on in China as I type.Will they go to Europe? I think Europe cares more and has more pride in their auto industry than the U.S. than to let this foreign horde pollute their automotive landscape with their bland transportation capsules. :mad:
If it were only so. I think people will default to one of the imports. When Oldsmobile folded, former Olds buyers didn't necessarily go to another GM division, but rather to Honda or Hyundai. I can't see the die-hard Chevy fan ever considering a Ford or a Mopar. As for me, I'd go to Chrysler, but feel they're already a dead duck. That would only leave me two unpalatable choices - Ford or the imports. Ford would be like forcing me to eat Brussels sprouts, which I hate with a passion. The imports would be like forcing me to swallow a couple of cyanide capsules with an arsenic chaser with a spritz of strychnine.
GM could build a small car for the Japanese market that makes a Corolla or a Civic look like a 1948 Crosley assembled at the Zastava works
Why don't they build them for sale in the USA with UAW labor? The only small high mileage car GM sells is built in Korea. The tariffs are the same for Germany as they are for the USA. Japanese have seen what we have and are not interested.
I looked at Buicks at the GMC dealer where I bought my PU truck. There were a couple Buicks I liked if I was in the market for a nice car. I just do not like cars. I like PU trucks and SUVs. I don't see my tastes changing. I liked the 2006 and older Escalade. Sadly my wife thought they were ugly. Nice riding SUVs. I can see how they pulled Cadillac out of the pit they were in. Without the Escalade Caddy would be on the same pile as Olds, which I liked better than Buick or Pontiac. Just not enough to buy one.
If GM goes away there is always BMW and MB built or assembled in the USA.
Well, I'm the opposite. I love cars and only see trucks as utility vehicles. If I were to buy a truck, it would probably be the plain jane work truck with rubber floor mats and vinyl seats and a cardboard headliner. It would be a 2wd vehicle powered most likely by a six.
For me to even consider a Mercedes or BMW, I'd have to go all the way to the S-Class or 7-Series as they're the only cars that come close to the size and plushness of my Cadillac DTS.
The imports would be like forcing me to swallow a couple of cyanide capsules with an arsenic chaser with a spritz of strychnine.
Do you have these items handy? Maybe you should put them on your shopping list.
I also don't like trucks. I have one, for when I need it. I have been driving Accords (2 of them) since 91. One for 12 years, and the current one for 5 years and counting. If GM had anything comparable, I would have bought one. Not even a reasonable imitation. I've owned enough GM cars to know Honda cars are much better built. If you are willing to drive inferior cars, because they are so called "American", that's your unfortunate choice.
Uh, I drive GM cars because I've had enough of them to know they are good and I have no need to look elsewhere. Twelve years on your Honda? Well, that's cool. My Buick Park Avenue and Cadillac Brougham are 21 and 20 years-old respectively and both still run very well. Heck, my Grandpop's 1989 Chevrolet Caprice Classic Brougham is still with our family.
I've had a few Ford cars and they were average. I've had one Chrysler car - a 1985 Fifth Avenue - and it turned out to be one of my best. I sold it to my brother in 1993 and he's still driving it.
For all I know, a Honda can be all you say it is and more, but I just can't get past their looks. I really really do not like their styling - a combo of the bland and bizarre. Japanese styling just turns me off.
I do agree with you. So many Asian cars have that "Stink Bug" look to them. And they have huge blind spots. In cars I prefer station wagons. I like looking to the right when I change lanes to make sure no one has sneaked into the blind spot in the mirror. Same reason I prefer PU trucks and SUVs over cars. Though so many of the new CUVs have large blind spots. My Suburban was probably the ultimate vehicle for me. If it had a diesel that would get 25 MPG on the highway I would have never sold it. The biggest issue is resale. PU Trucks hold their value better than most any car will. At least up till this last Oil bubble.
Sadly the Big 3 have put most of their efforts into BIG cars, trucks and SUVs. This last oil wake up changed all that.
Wait a minute. You just posted that the Toyota dealer gave you the best deal, and that the GMC dealer wanted top dollar. Are you saying if they wanted top dollar for the Toy, and were dumping GMCs you'd still be driving the Toy???
Believe me lem, if we allow the Big 3 to die, I'll NEVER buy another new car again as long as I live. I'll blow my $25-35K every 7 or so years on my Wildcat, and drive it forever.
".....The only small high mileage car GM sells is built in Korea. The tariffs are the same for Germany as they are for the USA. Japanese have seen what we have and are not interested."
Yes, tarriffs are the same, but with all the worldwide competition out there, why are there so few cars imported into Japan???? Because the GOVERNMENT won't let them in in any significant quantities. Go to Bermuda and look at the cars there. You will find far more European cars there than you would in Japan.
Are you saying if they wanted top dollar for the Toy, and were dumping GMCs you'd still be driving the Toy???
Not at all. If I had not gotten $10k off the loaded Sequoia limited MSRP, I quite possibly would have bought a Denali, Acadia or Mercedes GL320 CDI. When a dealer gives me the line that a particular car is really hot. I walk out the door. It has to be a great deal or I am not interested. I have never bought a vehicle I just had to have. I have never found a vehicle that really turned me on. Well maybe a 930 Carrera. Then my practical side takes over and I get something useful. I have bought 4 new vehicles in the last 3 years. I have sold 3 of them and none of them are really what I want. When I say our choices in this country suck I am serious. When I think about GM going belly up it does not bother me. I am hoping some other companies will come in and I will find a vehicle I really like.
Any reason you didn't get one of those diesel Suburbans they made in the '90s? One of those with a 2.97 gear or something should net you 25 mpg in straight highway cruising.
why are there so few cars imported into Japan???? Because the GOVERNMENT won't let them in in any significant quantities. Go to Bermuda and look at the cars there. You will find far more European cars there than you would in Japan.
I guess my response is so what? There are hundreds of models that are not allowed into the USA also. Some like small PU trucks kept out with our 25% tariff. Some are kept out with crazy safety regs and crash tests. Some are kept out with emission laws that are designed to keep out competition in especially the high mileage cars. We are so far from being a free market here in the USA that we have no right to point fingers at Japan or any other country.
Your own statement on go to Bermuda should make you see what we are not allowed to buy here. They have small vans in the rest of the world that get 35 MPG and better. Small very practical PU trucks that get 45 MPG. Much of those restrictions are a result of deals made to protect the Big 3. Even with all the protectionism afforded GM they are not able to make a profit. Let them DIE NOW. Not after we waste another $25 billion.
And that's fine. My point is that GM, through the DAT division can build products for the Japanese market. The Aveo is LHD, but the Barina is RHD. The Astra, which is an Opel, is also made in RHD. But none of them sell because not of tarriffs, but Japanese red tape.
When I bought my Suburban it was June of 1998. I hit a deer in Sun Valley Idaho and traded my wrecked 3/4 ton Chevy truck on the Suburban. I was lucky to find a dealer that had any Suburbans as the GM strike had just started. Mine was a 1999 built in April 1998. They told me GM had reached its limit and had already started building 99 models in the Spring of 1998. Something to do with CAFE I am sure. I called around to other dealers and they were all sold out. The dealer in Hailey did match the deal I could get from a fleet manager friend in Seattle, where I had bought the truck. I would have bought the diesel model if I could find one. I was kind of pressed for time being on vacation.
"....Some are kept out with crazy safety regs and crash tests. Some are kept out with emission laws that are designed to keep out competition in especially the high mileage cars."
Yes, but those regs are meant to protect you and me. Even GM can't sell some of their own products here (Euro cars w/ small diesels). So, in essence those regs hurt our own companies as well. BTW, do you think Japan would allow GM, or any other company to build a plant in Japan???
do you think Japan would allow GM, or any other company to build a plant in Japan???
Why would we want to? It has the most expensive land on earth. The most restrictive laws. GM cannot make money here. What makes you think they could do any better if they tried in Japan. Now Japan is up against Korea and China. At least we have a presence in China. They are going to pass up our buying in just a short few years. There GDP has already passed Japan and Germany. India is just about to pass Japan for the number 3 spot. Your love for America is wonderful. Where were you when we gave away all the Electronics & appliances in the 1960s and 70s? Automobiles are the next to go. We should be thankful that we have some foreign nameplates willing to build in the USA.
Twelve years on your Honda? Well, that's cool. My Buick Park Avenue and Cadillac Brougham are 21 and 20 years-old respectively and both still run very well. Heck, my Grandpop's 1989 Chevrolet Caprice Classic Brougham is still with our family.
Yes, well my father has a 71 Impala, and it still runs pretty good. Still runs good, is about all you can say good about it though. The A/C never did work for very long, and he finally gave up on that. He barely drives it any more, because whenever he does, something else needs fixing. Just finished repairing the exhaust last week. In 2001 he bought a Malibu, against my better judgement, and has had more problems with it in 3 years since the warranty ran out (manifold gaskets, brakes, electrical problems galore), than I had with both my Accords combined over 17 years. I certainly wasn't going to buy a Malibu after his experience. He has now seen the error of his ways, and will not buy another GM car. It takes some people a lot longer to learn. Maybe one day you will get it too. Hard to teach an old dog new tricks.
And when the big 3 go, so will they, as there will be no incentive to remain.
Why would they leave? The Germans, Koreans and Japanese have a US work force that are building good cars at less cost than at home. Within a year we are going to have at least another 12 million once illegal immigrants that will be legal and looking for a job like the Japanese and German car companies are offering. If Ford can get through to the thickheaded UAW that building state of the art manufacturing in the USA is a good thing. I don't think GM has the management that knows how to handle success. It has been too many decades since they were successful. At least 40 years of poor leadership.
Where are all the electronics manufacturers??? They don't build them here. No incentive to. They don't have to go home, but they can go where the labor is cheap. That is, unless labor isn't as big a deal as we make it out to be.
Heck, my Grandpop's 1989 Chevrolet Caprice Classic Brougham is still with our family.
Really? Hey, if he ever wants to get rid of that car Lemko, you should try to snatch it up! It would make a nice replacement for your '88 Park Ave, although you'd probably feel guilty driving that Caprice downtown and into bad neighborhoods and such.
Yes, well my father has a 71 Impala, and it still runs pretty good. Still runs good, is about all you can say good about it though. The A/C never did work for very long, and he finally gave up on that. He barely drives it any more, because whenever he does, something else needs fixing. Just finished repairing the exhaust last week.
When I was a kid my grandparents had a 1972 Impala, 4-door hardtop. Forest green with a white vinyl top. I loved that car. I vaguely remember, around 1978, asking them to hold onto it, because when I reached driving age, I wanted that car! Mom and Granddad both laughed at that comment, and explained to me that there was no way in hell that car would still be around when I turned 16, which was 1986. It ran well, but was rusting out pretty badly. They kept it until 1982, when it had a little over 100,000 miles on it. Sold it to some friends of the family for $600. They kept it a year, put a new vinyl top on it, and sold it for $700.
I'm sure it would've still been driveable by the time I got my learner's, but it would've been a rust bucket. Still, I thought it was a neat car.
He has now seen the error of his ways, and will not buy another GM car. It takes some people a lot longer to learn. Maybe one day you will get it too. Hard to teach an old dog new tricks.
Oh it'll be a cold day in hell when Lemko turns his back on GM! In his defense though, he's never been burned by a GM car. He tends to go for the bigger GM vehicles though, and bigger cars is something that GM still knows how to do, for the most part.
I'll admit, I've had a few GM cars that were less than stellar, but when you're talking $800 '82 Cutlass Supremes and $400 '69 Bonnevilles, so at those price points, I can't really hold GM too much at fault! :P
The only car I ever bought new was a 2000 Intrepid. It was pretty reliable up until 2007 and 130,000+ miles. That's when it started needing suspension work and the a/c started to fail. And then in 2008, around 140,000 miles, it needed a new camshaft and crankshaft sensor. So it hasn't been ultra-reliable, but it hasn't soured me to Chrysler. If anything has soured me to Chrysler, it's their current lineup! I don't like the Avenger/Sebring. The 300 is a bit too blingy for my tastes, which some might find shocking considering some of the pimpy 70's cars I've had. I do like the Charger, but don't like its cheap interior or fuel economy. But then, who buys a car like this for fuel economy!
If I were in the market for a new car, I'd consider something like an Accord or Altima...not because the domestic experience has soured me, but more because the Japanese are getting really good at building decent bigger cars. I'll admit though, that I'd also consider a Malibu or Aura. And I want to see what Ford's doing with the 2010 Fusion. Supposedly they're improving the 4-cyl model considerably.
Yeah, my dad had a 72 Impala in an awful dark brown but it was a great car.
Hey, if I wanted cars the size of the one lemko likes I'd be buying GM, too! Makes perfect sense for him - and they are the things that GM does consistently well.
I'm with you on the Chrysler lineup. Chrysler always had - even when their mechanicals weren't great they still looked great. Now they aren't great mechanically AND they aren't attractive.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
Yeah, my dad had a 72 Impala in an awful dark brown but it was a great car.
I wouldn't mind getting ahold of one of those old beasts, especially a convertible. Heck, if I could find one that's in good shape, and just use it as a fair weather car, it would probably last forever!
your talking about Amererican cars just reminded me of a rig that is All-American that I love.
The 1964 Ford pickup. Yep, if I were to step out of reality for a while and want to buy a pick-em-up truck, it would be this one. Simple, great design that looks good every time I see one.
For me the same goes if I were to buy a new pickup truck. It would have to be a Ford pickup truck. Although I would look closely at a Chev pickup before I bought Ford.
Doesn't matter, though, I'll probably never buy a '64 Ford pickup or a 2009 Ford pickup. Good thing I'm not the one to decide about loaning billions of dollars of cash to the Big 2 1/2...I might just along with it. :surprise:
The 71 Impala my dad has has less than 100k miles on it. It was my grandfather's and his brother's car before that, and they drove very little. It would be a great classic to fix up, if it were not for the metal termites eating away at it. The rust is around the edges of the rear windshield and the gutter above the windows, which would be very hard to get rid of. Other than the rust, it doesn't even have a door ding in it. Too bad rust-proofing was not very good in those days.
Yeah, the 1964 Ford pickup is a nice looking rig. My only problem with buying an old pickup though, is that I would need it to actually do WORK. And most old pickups these days have been restored, with tons of money sunk into them. Not exactly something that you're going to haul firewood or brush in, or take a load of junk to the dump, etc.
Every once in awhile, I get the idea of buying a new (or newer used) pickup to replace my aging '85 Silverado. But then last week I finally broke down and decided to put some money into the thing. It's in the shop now, getting the power window on the driver's side and radio fixed. And as soon as he has the space in his shop for it, my mechanic is going to fix the one serious rust spot that it has, on the lower passenger side rocker.
So, it'll probably be with me for the indefinite future. But unfortunately for the domestics, that means I won't be buying a new truck from them anytime soon. Although I gotta admit, I'm starting to feel this unhealthy attraction to the 2009 Ram! :surprise:
I just sold my '87 chevy that was still running great. No leaks and original EPA matching mpg at 183,000 miles. It had a history very different than you describe, hardly ever needing repair.
I've known Honda owners who just got their car back from a 100,000 mile checkup that cost them $1200 and then they said that nothing has ever gone wrong with it. All the 150k+ mile Hondas I've rode in were falling apart where the drivetrain attaches to the frame.
I'v kept GM cars to 19, 22, and 22 yrs and sold them in great running condition.
I wouldn't mind getting ahold of one of those old beasts, especially a convertible. Heck, if I could find one that's in good shape, and just use it as a fair weather car, it would probably last forever!
One of my great regrets was seeing a light green 73 Impala convertible back when it was maybe 4 years old and not jumping on it. Oh, well...
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
Comments
I fully believe the U.S. government should give the big 3 the money they need. However there should be stipulations. Invest the money into re-tooling plants here in the U.S., invest in new drive train technologies. Build the next generation of automobiles here in the U.S. Start a new revolution in car building and technologies.
One revolution would be to manufacture efficiently. The Detroit 3 have been hobbled by UAW requirements for job banks and work rules. The loan should require that these change in a big way.
I recall that the jobs bank was created as a by-product of GMs move to robots. We can't get more efficient when we pay people to do nothing.
A better question would be (and I honestly don't know the answer to this one), which car company could advertise the following?:
X (GM, Toyota, Honda, etc.) sells more cars which get over 30mpg than any other car company.
Well unless the UAW agrees that isn't going to happen without bankruptcy. And if you give them a loan they're not going bankrupt until that $25B is wasted. They need to go bankrupt first, get rid of all the bad contracts and agreements they have, and then set new competitive work-rules and wages.
As fas as building cars for the masses ever again in the U.S., it would take something huge in bringing GM to it's once-mighty knees. They need to build even more smaller cars that (Chevy Beat), like the Chevy Cruze, get good ghastly mileage. But you're right, they should concentrate on new drive technologies. But not just the same raspberry jelly donut and Starbuck's coffee approach that's putting them in an early grave.
If the masses of people in the U.S. can't afford a fuel cell/hydrogen/all-electric car developed by GM, they've effectively shot themselves in the foot.
And right now there's too many of them(UAW members)to clothe and feed and rape the GM coffers with. Too many money-grubbing clubheads and not enough good brainpower left over from those glorious car-building days of the 60's.
I don't see them surviving another year, even with Obama cash in their jelly-stained hands.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Realizing of course that none of this will change anything -- the government will do what the government wants anyway, with total disregard to the objections of the people, but if we must bail them out, then I say we negotiate a better deal than what we're getting - which is basically nothing! Where's the justification in helping those who won't help us? In order to get something, they have to give a little - and they could start by bringing the manufacture of American products back home to America where it belongs. .
See this article: Corporations Doubled the Number of Jobs Sent Overseas in Three Years
link title
and this one: Outsource domestic car manufacturing to India?
link title
What if the $3-4 gas was part scam, part wake up call. Look at the aftermath around the world. The people behind it probably lost more than they made, when you look at the last 3 and next 3 years in total. Even the guy who still has a V8 is driving it less and will continue some habits formed over the last 8 months.
Most people have needs that an electric vehicle will not fulfill. When will we have a serious selection of electric vehicles that can tow boats, haul 1000 load 1000 miles each way in a day or two, and double as a daily commuter.
I find it hard to believe that even $10 a day is a catastrophe in fuel costs for the average working family. An ICE will get the job done. An electric car will be expensive to launch. The gas price that makes electric cars seem affordable have been shown to sink the entire world, economically.
The "Fit is Go" is still hard to argue with. The wake up call is to keep spending R&D to bring down the cost of the electric car, but competing with $1.75 gas for a new $17,000 34 mpg ICE car is tough. Nobody's going to 'make' money doing it.
I can only guess, but these are the likely reasons :
1. Gas prices are high in Japan, parking is cramped, and the roads are usually narrow and twisty (due to mountainous terrain). So smaller cars are more popular.
2. Japan is very strong in small cars, so hard for other countries to compete. Inside Japan we even have 600cc cars, which very few countries make. And the price points are very competitive (so hard to import such a low price car and compete).
I guess if the "market share" at the high end is calculated, the imports would have a much bigger market share. For instance, Lexus is still way below BMW. You can see the inordinately high percentage of Hummers in the total GM sales in Japan.....
Bermuda has the same type of roads you speak of for Japan, except I don't think Hamilton is any more congested than say Boston downtown, yet the variety of cars driven there would make your head spin.
You'd be hard pressed to convince me that the Japanese government doesn't have the heaviest hand in the low number of imported cars.
All circles back to not supporting America for whatever reason, now including $1,88 a month in gas costs by not getting over 30 mpg.
I say let GM DIE and the sooner the better. There are companies building good vehicles in the USA that are quiet when cruising down the highway.
Mine was wanting an AWD mid-size sedan (mazdaspeed6), w/270hp 4-cyl, stability control, Bose stereo and Xenon headlights, and temp. control for an OTD price of $22,200 after rebates. Mazda had it; the Big3 had nothing comparable.
What's wrong with that? I still do! I have no problem with either my 1988 Buick Park Avenue and 1989 Cadillac Brougham! I know somebody on Edmunds who still drives cars with 1950s, 1960s, and 1970s technology. :P
GM could build a small car for the Japanese market that makes a Corolla or a Civic look like a 1948 Crosley assembled at the Zastava works, and they'd still be forbidden to sell it in Japan or it would be tariffed so high that the average Japanese might as well spend the money on an S-Class Mercedes.
Why don't they build them for sale in the USA with UAW labor? The only small high mileage car GM sells is built in Korea. The tariffs are the same for Germany as they are for the USA. Japanese have seen what we have and are not interested.
I looked at Buicks at the GMC dealer where I bought my PU truck. There were a couple Buicks I liked if I was in the market for a nice car. I just do not like cars. I like PU trucks and SUVs. I don't see my tastes changing. I liked the 2006 and older Escalade. Sadly my wife thought they were ugly. Nice riding SUVs. I can see how they pulled Cadillac out of the pit they were in. Without the Escalade Caddy would be on the same pile as Olds, which I liked better than Buick or Pontiac. Just not enough to buy one.
If GM goes away there is always BMW and MB built or assembled in the USA.
For me to even consider a Mercedes or BMW, I'd have to go all the way to the S-Class or 7-Series as they're the only cars that come close to the size and plushness of my Cadillac DTS.
Do you have these items handy? Maybe you should put them on your shopping list.
I also don't like trucks. I have one, for when I need it. I have been driving Accords (2 of them) since 91. One for 12 years, and the current one for 5 years and counting. If GM had anything comparable, I would have bought one. Not even a reasonable imitation. I've owned enough GM cars to know Honda cars are much better built. If you are willing to drive inferior cars, because they are so called "American", that's your unfortunate choice.
I've had a few Ford cars and they were average. I've had one Chrysler car - a 1985 Fifth Avenue - and it turned out to be one of my best. I sold it to my brother in 1993 and he's still driving it.
For all I know, a Honda can be all you say it is and more, but I just can't get past their looks. I really really do not like their styling - a combo of the bland and bizarre. Japanese styling just turns me off.
I do agree with you. So many Asian cars have that "Stink Bug" look to them. And they have huge blind spots. In cars I prefer station wagons. I like looking to the right when I change lanes to make sure no one has sneaked into the blind spot in the mirror. Same reason I prefer PU trucks and SUVs over cars. Though so many of the new CUVs have large blind spots. My Suburban was probably the ultimate vehicle for me. If it had a diesel that would get 25 MPG on the highway I would have never sold it. The biggest issue is resale. PU Trucks hold their value better than most any car will. At least up till this last Oil bubble.
Sadly the Big 3 have put most of their efforts into BIG cars, trucks and SUVs. This last oil wake up changed all that.
Yes, tarriffs are the same, but with all the worldwide competition out there, why are there so few cars imported into Japan???? Because the GOVERNMENT won't let them in in any significant quantities. Go to Bermuda and look at the cars there. You will find far more European cars there than you would in Japan.
BTW GM DOES have cars that could be sold there:
http://vauxhall.com/vaux/home.do?referrer=#vehicleTabs:NewAgila
and:
http://www.holden.com.au/www-holden/action/vehicleentry?vehicleid=1
Not at all. If I had not gotten $10k off the loaded Sequoia limited MSRP, I quite possibly would have bought a Denali, Acadia or Mercedes GL320 CDI. When a dealer gives me the line that a particular car is really hot. I walk out the door. It has to be a great deal or I am not interested. I have never bought a vehicle I just had to have. I have never found a vehicle that really turned me on. Well maybe a 930 Carrera. Then my practical side takes over and I get something useful. I have bought 4 new vehicles in the last 3 years. I have sold 3 of them and none of them are really what I want. When I say our choices in this country suck I am serious. When I think about GM going belly up it does not bother me. I am hoping some other companies will come in and I will find a vehicle I really like.
I guess my response is so what? There are hundreds of models that are not allowed into the USA also. Some like small PU trucks kept out with our 25% tariff. Some are kept out with crazy safety regs and crash tests. Some are kept out with emission laws that are designed to keep out competition in especially the high mileage cars. We are so far from being a free market here in the USA that we have no right to point fingers at Japan or any other country.
Your own statement on go to Bermuda should make you see what we are not allowed to buy here. They have small vans in the rest of the world that get 35 MPG and better. Small very practical PU trucks that get 45 MPG. Much of those restrictions are a result of deals made to protect the Big 3. Even with all the protectionism afforded GM they are not able to make a profit. Let them DIE NOW. Not after we waste another $25 billion.
Yes, but those regs are meant to protect you and me. Even GM can't sell some of their own products here (Euro cars w/ small diesels). So, in essence those regs hurt our own companies as well. BTW, do you think Japan would allow GM, or any other company to build a plant in Japan???
Why would we want to? It has the most expensive land on earth. The most restrictive laws. GM cannot make money here. What makes you think they could do any better if they tried in Japan. Now Japan is up against Korea and China. At least we have a presence in China. They are going to pass up our buying in just a short few years. There GDP has already passed Japan and Germany. India is just about to pass Japan for the number 3 spot. Your love for America is wonderful. Where were you when we gave away all the Electronics & appliances in the 1960s and 70s? Automobiles are the next to go. We should be thankful that we have some foreign nameplates willing to build in the USA.
Because that's the only way in.
"....Where were you when we gave away all the Electronics & appliances in the 1960s and 70s?"
In diapers and Little League.
"...We should be thankful that we have some foreign nameplates willing to build in the USA."
And when the big 3 go, so will they, as there will be no incentive to remain.
Yes, well my father has a 71 Impala, and it still runs pretty good. Still runs good, is about all you can say good about it though. The A/C never did work for very long, and he finally gave up on that. He barely drives it any more, because whenever he does, something else needs fixing. Just finished repairing the exhaust last week. In 2001 he bought a Malibu, against my better judgement, and has had more problems with it in 3 years since the warranty ran out (manifold gaskets, brakes, electrical problems galore), than I had with both my Accords combined over 17 years. I certainly wasn't going to buy a Malibu after his experience. He has now seen the error of his ways, and will not buy another GM car. It takes some people a lot longer to learn. Maybe one day you will get it too. Hard to teach an old dog new tricks.
Why would they leave? The Germans, Koreans and Japanese have a US work force that are building good cars at less cost than at home. Within a year we are going to have at least another 12 million once illegal immigrants that will be legal and looking for a job like the Japanese and German car companies are offering. If Ford can get through to the thickheaded UAW that building state of the art manufacturing in the USA is a good thing. I don't think GM has the management that knows how to handle success. It has been too many decades since they were successful. At least 40 years of poor leadership.
Where are all the electronics manufacturers??? They don't build them here. No incentive to. They don't have to go home, but they can go where the labor is cheap. That is, unless labor isn't as big a deal as we make it out to be.
Really? Hey, if he ever wants to get rid of that car Lemko, you should try to snatch it up! It would make a nice replacement for your '88 Park Ave, although you'd probably feel guilty driving that Caprice downtown and into bad neighborhoods and such.
When I was a kid my grandparents had a 1972 Impala, 4-door hardtop. Forest green with a white vinyl top. I loved that car. I vaguely remember, around 1978, asking them to hold onto it, because when I reached driving age, I wanted that car! Mom and Granddad both laughed at that comment, and explained to me that there was no way in hell that car would still be around when I turned 16, which was 1986. It ran well, but was rusting out pretty badly. They kept it until 1982, when it had a little over 100,000 miles on it. Sold it to some friends of the family for $600. They kept it a year, put a new vinyl top on it, and sold it for $700.
I'm sure it would've still been driveable by the time I got my learner's, but it would've been a rust bucket. Still, I thought it was a neat car.
He has now seen the error of his ways, and will not buy another GM car. It takes some people a lot longer to learn. Maybe one day you will get it too. Hard to teach an old dog new tricks.
Oh it'll be a cold day in hell when Lemko turns his back on GM! In his defense though, he's never been burned by a GM car. He tends to go for the bigger GM vehicles though, and bigger cars is something that GM still knows how to do, for the most part.
I'll admit, I've had a few GM cars that were less than stellar, but when you're talking $800 '82 Cutlass Supremes and $400 '69 Bonnevilles, so at those price points, I can't really hold GM too much at fault! :P
The only car I ever bought new was a 2000 Intrepid. It was pretty reliable up until 2007 and 130,000+ miles. That's when it started needing suspension work and the a/c started to fail. And then in 2008, around 140,000 miles, it needed a new camshaft and crankshaft sensor. So it hasn't been ultra-reliable, but it hasn't soured me to Chrysler. If anything has soured me to Chrysler, it's their current lineup! I don't like the Avenger/Sebring. The 300 is a bit too blingy for my tastes, which some might find shocking considering some of the pimpy 70's cars I've had.
If I were in the market for a new car, I'd consider something like an Accord or Altima...not because the domestic experience has soured me, but more because the Japanese are getting really good at building decent bigger cars. I'll admit though, that I'd also consider a Malibu or Aura. And I want to see what Ford's doing with the 2010 Fusion. Supposedly they're improving the 4-cyl model considerably.
Hey, if I wanted cars the size of the one lemko likes I'd be buying GM, too! Makes perfect sense for him - and they are the things that GM does consistently well.
I'm with you on the Chrysler lineup. Chrysler always had - even when their mechanicals weren't great they still looked great. Now they aren't great mechanically AND they aren't attractive.
I wouldn't mind getting ahold of one of those old beasts, especially a convertible. Heck, if I could find one that's in good shape, and just use it as a fair weather car, it would probably last forever!
The 1964 Ford pickup. Yep, if I were to step out of reality for a while and want to buy a pick-em-up truck, it would be this one. Simple, great design that looks good every time I see one.
For me the same goes if I were to buy a new pickup truck. It would have to be a Ford pickup truck. Although I would look closely at a Chev pickup before I bought Ford.
Doesn't matter, though, I'll probably never buy a '64 Ford pickup or a 2009 Ford pickup. Good thing I'm not the one to decide about loaning billions of dollars of cash to the Big 2 1/2...I might just along with it. :surprise:
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Every once in awhile, I get the idea of buying a new (or newer used) pickup to replace my aging '85 Silverado. But then last week I finally broke down and decided to put some money into the thing. It's in the shop now, getting the power window on the driver's side and radio fixed. And as soon as he has the space in his shop for it, my mechanic is going to fix the one serious rust spot that it has, on the lower passenger side rocker.
So, it'll probably be with me for the indefinite future. But unfortunately for the domestics, that means I won't be buying a new truck from them anytime soon. Although I gotta admit, I'm starting to feel this unhealthy attraction to the 2009 Ram! :surprise:
I've known Honda owners who just got their car back from a 100,000 mile checkup that cost them $1200 and then they said that nothing has ever gone wrong with it. All the 150k+ mile Hondas I've rode in were falling apart where the drivetrain attaches to the frame.
I'v kept GM cars to 19, 22, and 22 yrs and sold them in great running condition.
One of my great regrets was seeing a light green 73 Impala convertible back when it was maybe 4 years old and not jumping on it. Oh, well...