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lol
Dubya still hasn't figured out how to read polls, has he?
Fair statement there.
A few parting words for the senators who squashed the auto rescue
By MITCH ALBOM: DETROIT FREE PRESS COLUMNIST, December 13, 2008
Do you want to watch us drown? Is that it? Do want to see
the last gurgle of economic air spit from our lips? If so,
senators, know this: You'll go down with us. America
isn't America without an auto industry. You can argue
whether $14 billion would have saved it, but you surely
tried to kill it. We have grease on our hands.
You have blood on yours.
Kill the car, kill the country. History will show that when
America was on its knees, a handful of lawmakers tried to
cut off its feet. And blame the workers. How suddenly did
the workers - a small percentage of a car's cost -
become justification for crushing an industry?
And when did Detroit become the symbol of economic
dysfunction? Are you kidding? Have you looked in the mirror
lately, Washington?
In a world where banks hemorrhaged trillions in a
high-priced gamble called credit derivative swaps that YOU
failed to regulate, how on earth do WE need to be punished?
In a bailout era where you shoveled billions, with no
demands, to banks and financial firms, why do WE need to be
schooled on how to run a business?
Who is more dysfunctional in business than YOU? Who blows
more money? Who wastes more trillions on favors, payback and pork?
At least in the auto industry, if folks don't like what
you make, they don't have to buy it. In government, even
your worst mistakes, we have to live with.
And now Detroit should die with this?
In bed with the foreign automakers
Kill the car, kill the country. Sen. Richard Shelby, Sen.
Bob Corker, Sen. Mitch McConnell, your names will not be
forgotten. It's amazing how you pretend to speak for
America when you are only watching out for your political
party, which would love to cripple unions, and your states,
which house foreign auto plants.
Corker, you've got Nissan there and Volkswagen coming.
Shelby, you've got Hyundai, Honda, Mercedes-Benz and -
like McConnell - Toyota. Oh, don't kid yourself. They
didn't come because you earned their business, a subject
on which you enjoy lecturing the Detroit Three. No, they
came because you threw billions in state tax breaks to lure them.
And now you want those foreign companies, which you lured,
and which get help from their governments, to dictate to
American workers how much they should be paid? Tell you
what. You're so fond of the foreign model, why don't
you do what Japanese ministers do when they screw up the
country's finances?
They cut their salaries. Or they resign in shame.
When was the last time a U.S. senator resigned over a
failed policy? Yet you want to fire Rick Wagoner?
Who are you people?
More money for the lords of Wall Street
There ought to be a law - against the hypocrisy our
government has demonstrated. The speed with which
wheelbarrows of money were dumped on Wall Street versus the
slow noose hung on the auto companies' necks is
reprehensible. Some of those same banks we bailed out are
now saying they won't extend credit to auto dealers.
Wasn't that why we gave them the money? To loosen credit?
Where's your tight grip on those funds, senators?
Where's your micromanaging of the wages in banking? Or
do you just enjoy having your hands around blue-collared throats?
No matter what the president does, history will not forget
this: At our nation's most uncertain hour, you senators
stood ready to plunge hundreds of thousands of American
families into oblivion. Leave them unemployed, with no
health care, on public assistance. And you were willing to
put our nation's security at risk - by squashing the
manufacturing base we must have in times of war.
And why? So you could stand on some phony principle? Crush
a union? Play to your base? How is our nation better off
today now that you kept $14 billion in the treasury? Are you
going to balance the budget with that?
Don't make us laugh.
Kill the car, kill the country. You tried to slam a stake
into our chest; you don't realize how close you are to
the nation's heart. Shame on your pettiness. Shame on
your hypocrisy. This is how lawmakers behave two weeks
before Christmas? Honestly. What has become of this country?
http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/with-economy-in-shambles-congress-gets-a-rai- se-2008-12-17.html
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
The government is not and will not be responsible for "plunge hundreds of thousands of American families into oblivion. Leave them unemployed, with no
health care, on public assistance." THAT responsibility rests squarely on the shoulders of the largely failing domestic manufacturers who got the companies in the positions they're in now.
You know, I have mixed feelings about the bailout, but this hostile, demanding, biased article that comes off as though the manufacturers are ENTITLED to taxpayer money makes me less likely to support a bailout, not more so.
kirstie
visiting host
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It sure doesn't sound to me like what the Dem's (who are now in charge) dear leader calls "spreading the wealth!" :mad:
Kill the car, kill the country.
You'd have to be a socialist to buy into this trash.
Please explain to me how that is different then what is going on now??? Most cars are discounted to Employee pricing plus a rebate. Can't imagine any manufacturer is making a profit with sales this month. January and February are not looking any better....
I am with kirstie, this only makes me less likely to support a bailout, in theory. In reality my support for a bailout was already zero, so it couldn't get any lower.
If Bush had any vision, or if he and the Congress had ever been able to work together since the elections two years ago, all of them would have had the pre-packaged bankruptcy of GM already figured out and set in motion by now. Instead, we have to wait until March 31 before that occurs, and $17 billion more of taxpayer money goes down the drain? Some leadership we see displayed here by both branches of the government.
I'm not convinced that Chrysler even deserves a government-managed bankruptcy, they should just throw that company on the mercy of the court and be done with it.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Definitely less likely. I'm a lifelong import driver, but I'd been warming up to cars like the CTS. Unfortunately, the excessive whining from the B3 and their fan boys these days shows very clearly that they are not ready for the 21st century.
He meant spreading the tax payers wealth into bigger government. The whole business of bailouts, are pay backs to corporations, Unions and fellow politicians. It has nothing to do with the hard working tax payer, except getting into your wallet.
Hey, they can call me on that press request. I'll tell them - I'll buy a car when the car itself impresses me and I have at least an inkling that the company will survive the warranty. Thus a Ford Fusion hybrid might make the cut while a Malibu right now might not.
A history of poor reliability takes a long time for consumers to forget, even after it's improved. Being late to the hybrid show didn't help. Neither did putting a bunch of their eggs into the large truck & SUV market. One could argue that they couldn't see the gas price hike coming, but failure to maintain a diverse line of well-built, desireable products was never going to be to their benefit.
During the early 90's, I bought a Chrysler minivan. I was sold the extended warranty because the salesperson told me it was a given - not questionable, but a certainty - that my transmission would go out at about 60K. These things weren't even secret, nor were they necessarily something that anyone was apologetic for. People accepted this garbage for years, largely because there was no serious competition from imports in certain vehicle classes.
Sadly, I think they're reaping the results of decisions made many years ago, and I'm not sure how they'll come up with a plan to dig themselves out of this ditch by March. I'll be impressed if they do (excluding Ford here).
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
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Well at least we'll have 3-4 months of this soap opera, with all the crying, arrogance, sad-sack stories, and such; to continue to pity this bunch of overpaid cry-babies.
In many ways the B3 remind me of my GF's son who's 18 now; he calls us when he goes somewhere and has no ride home or no money to get a cab, and he gets belligerent if we tell him - that's his problem - of how he got where he was without any money.
You've written the best lines that I've read all week. (I rented a Caliber for a few days last year. My memories of that experience added some punch to your comment.)
Joking aside. Detroit, cut the crap. Perfect the basics. And I don't want your boy, JD Powers, to tell me about "initial" quality. I want long term quality. If you can't build cars and trucks equal or better than the Japanese...don't expect me to buy one.
the Wheelman
The Maxx should've been the wagon that toyota is offering. The H3 should've been sfa and or a second ifs with higher gearing for non rockcrawlers. Next vehicle that can fit in the garage, F100?, ?, , ?, Wrangler JK just for the frame and sfa and after market support. And if ford had offered a regular cab with short bed 213" -12" = 201" that would've been my present.
WheelMan
".....What I can't figure out is why the Germans even adopted a red headed [non-permissible content removed] step child in the first place???? Why did they even pay more than $1 for Chrysler in the first place? Why did Cerebus? "
I can't figure this out either. If you look at the J3, in the late '80's they developed their upscale luxury brands. That filled a hole in their lineups. Mercedes was just the other way around. Below the 190/C models, they had nothing. Chrysler would have provided a good established company in which to "trickle down" Mercedes' technology, as well as established assembly plants in which to build Mercedes' and have a greater foothold in the US. I feel it was the German's superiority complex that kept them from doing this. They punted away a good opportunity to fill that "hole" in their lineup.
Replies to this message:
explorerx4 (Dec 18, 2008 6:06 pm)
wheelman (Dec 19, 2008 2:28 pm)"""""
Looking in hindsite, what did mb do in America. Some of us thought for sure that a jeep diesel from a company with german diesel background was a no brainer. Fool me (and others) once. Keep your modern diesel with its egr. What a raw deal. Owners continue to violate federal emission laws, spend time and money (a lot) to do what daimler didn't do. What about the ml line's quality out of the shute-crap (don't bring it to europe). Pacifica - orphaned. What was mb real reason if something other than cheap parts is to blame. Oh and yeh "trickle down" crap again.
Simply unbelievable that GM took until 2008 to make the CTS even close. Tantamount to greed and utter loss of car passion. Now we bail out the bums!
Regards,
OW
Without improvement in parts quality, build quality, service capability, respect for the customer and desirable product, this could cost almost 10 times more than the quick fix of $17B and then still wind up in C11 or C7 liquidation.
Regards,
OW
Nice try. Maybe later. Eventually, even the cossacks turned their horses one hundred and eighty degrees. Maybe the south will get educated look out for all their individual citizens forget about the pablum propaganda they've been fed forget color and rise again - naw that won't happen.
Invest in America - browse - beautiful
http://catalog.usmint.gov/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=100- 01&storeId=10001&productId=14353&langId=-1&parent_category_rn=10120
Toyota has around 30Bn USD of cash in hand, so on its own, it is should be OK.
But it seems (as per some local papers here) Toyota is planning to finance (read bail out) its smaller parts suppliers who are hurting now. If that happens, then not sure how long Toyota's cash will last.
I think we should all quit buying from GM and Chrysler. If you buy any D3 iron at all, make it a Ford.
Gas money spent to drive the half million miles on those cars:
$42,000 estimated.
Cost of the recent downturn in the economy for me:
About 1/2 a years gross salary in investments and home value losses.
I'm trying to figure out how to help our economy by spending on things that help. Real People. Real Jobs. 6400 people in Kokomo are losing their jobs today and they may not come back. Think non-Chrysler Kokomo residents are shopping at Toyota?
For Asian car owners, there is a new reason to kill our economy. Warranty.
Have you test driven a non-import this year?
Toyota republicans oppose bailout but offer Toyota $500 million incentive to 'Come on over'.
How does the $17B bailout cost compare to our 14th aircraft carrier?
I think the bailout costs less.
14th carrier?
Yeah, we have to put one between China and Japan. that way Japan's gov't can spend more to subsidize their auto industry with their defense budget savings.
google is a good place to start. :surprise:
But people are buying Mazdas, and not G5s, and I am sure there is a reason. One being that they are way down the list for reliability. Save $1500 bucks now, or spend $5000 later.......not to mention depreciation :sick:
Mazda 3 reliability:
Overall: 8.7
Performance: 8.1
Exterior: 7.8
Interior: 7.4
Safety: 7.3
Reliability: 8.0
G5 reliability:
Overall: 6.6
Performance: 6.6
Exterior: 7.7
Interior: 6.3
Safety: 8.8
Reliability: 6.0
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
or how about one guy screwing others out of 50B, as in BILLION.
about a third of the auto 'bailout'.
at least a lot of families will feel confident enough to buy their kids something for christmas this year.
now saying they won't extend credit to auto dealers.
Wasn't that why we gave them the money? To loosen credit?
NO! It is not intended to "loosen" credit. It is for lending to people who can actually repay the loans. LOOSE CREDIT is what got us into this mess. Now that everyone's credit is at the limit, there is none left to spend. Detroit was loosing $$$ before the credit crisis, when people were still buying. They are in deep trouble now, and there is no simple way out. What will Detroit do between now and March, to convince anyone they can make a profit any time soon? Chapter 11 is the ONLY solution to a mess like this. By the end of 09 GM and Chrysler will no longer exist, as we know them today.
Blaming Detroit's problems on the government (or whoever) is not going to make the $$ bleeding stop. It doesn't matter how much loan $$$ Detroit gets from the government, it will only put the problem on hold. What are the Big 3 going to do? Beg for money every quarter?
What has become of this country?
It's still a free country, and you are free to leave any time. Maybe France needs some more girlymen.
I'm sure you could buy a Buick pillowy experience instead.
A couple months later, I test drove a G5 with an automatic, sunroof, and a 2.4 liter that had much less road noise, probably because it weighed near 3000 lbs.
Oh, the 2-door Cobalt. If you don't care about reliability or handling and want mass instead, that would be a good car.
I think I could have had it for about a thousand less than the Mazda3, though it msrp's for about 1500 more than the Mazda
Up front cost is more important if you're on payments. If you're looking at total cost of ownership then the Mazda is cheaper. But the monthlies may be cheaper on that
CobaltG5.Toyota still does extremely well in quality ratings. And, it is almost impossible for a company to grow so quickly and not experience some gliches. GM has been making the same cars for about 10 years and they don't do as well in over all quality.
Another thing to consider is, there is a lot of new models and new R&D in Toyota/Lexus models, and that can lead to some gliches too. This is not an excuse, but seems to be the way business flows.....when demand surpasses your plans, you scramble to keep up, and a few things fall between the cracks.
Very little technology in Buicks and Impalas, so they have been perfected over the years...you would think even better than they are!
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
So their choice seems to be either to make acceptable wage concessions immediately, which is something they seem reluctant to do, or torpedo the loans by standing firm and forcing possible bankruptcies, which will force the same concessions, or worse, on them anyway.
Either way, we are going to witness a big change in the way a lot of things are done from now on.
The $17.4 billion federal loan agreement does keep the domestic auto industry alive. But the terms of that loan also insist that the wages and benefits for union workers be lowered to "equal" the average of nonunion workers, specifically, those at the U.S. plants of Nissan, Toyota and Honda.
Those and other concessions would essentially erase the significant distinctions between union and nonunion auto workers, and the lack of such union worker advantages would render moot the union's fundamental purpose, some industry analysts and labor experts said.
And because our Uncle shelled out the big bucks, I think we all should attend the next stockholders meeting of the Big Three because we get to rant and rave "Can you hear us now ?" from the Part Owners' Box.
WheelMan