Does the current situation affect hybrid sales more?

larsb

Gary says, "What will a Prius do that a $12k Yaris won't do?"

Lots of stuff.

You get what you pay for. A $12K car is a $12K car, and a $26K car is a $26K car.

Never the twain shall meet.

andre1969

What will a Prius do that a $12k Yaris won't do? They get easy 40 MPG highway.

Well, by the time you equip a Yaris nicely, that $12K car is more like a $16K car. And it's easy to get a Corolla up over $20K these days. The Prius, even in base form, is pretty well-equipped, so once you factor in the added content that narrows the gap.

Then consider the fact that the Prius, despite its awkward proportions and small-ish dimensions, actually is a midsized car. It doesn't have the shoulder room that your typical intermediate would, so forget about squeezing three across in back and having them comfortable. But for four good-sized people, it's probably about as comfortable inside as most intermediate cars, and better than the Corolla or Yaris. And the Prius's trunk volume, at 16 cubic feet, is actually generous for a midsize car these days. Some of them are only 13-14!

As for fuel economy, a Prius and Yaris might be close out on the highway, but in local driving, I'm sure the Prius would win out by a fairly wide margin.

So yeah, it comes at a price premium. But the Prius also gives you more standard equipment and more interior room, in addition to the improved economy.

gagrice

I expected a smoother quieter ride for my $10k difference from the Yaris. Unless you are hauling lots of stuff the Yaris will do the job. If you want more room and 50 MPG, the new Jetta Sportwagen TDI will beat the Prius in every category that most people are thinking about for the same or less money. And their sales in this down market agree.

I would say hybrids have peaked and are headed down hill. Nothing from GM is worth buying. Ford Escape is a decent over priced hybrid.

larsb

Gary says, "I would say hybrids have peaked and are headed down hill"

Wishful thinking, Oh Great Diesel Sniffer. (LOL)

Hybrid sales are not directly linked to lower gas prices. Hybrids were selling just fine with low gas prices three years ago.

What has changed is "the ECONOMY, stupids." (Stupids with an "S" on the end to include all of us, myself included.)

Not just hybrids, but ALL vehicle sales are basically on the downturn. People are just not buying new cars when their homes are in foreclosure or they just got laid off or are worrying about keeping groceries on the table and a roof over their kids heads.

The downturn in sales will happen to the Jetta TDI also, once all the initial Diesel Worshippers get their cars.

nwng

I don't think VW has shipped a lot of tdi cars over from the motherland this year. I have yet to see a new golf/jetta tdi on the road and I live in the birkenstock central of the eastern seaboard.

One thing the yaris can do and the prius can't: heel and toe shifting! And for that I will take a yaris 5 dr over a prius any given day. Car sat a prius for 3 months and hated every minute when I have to drive it.

joshuag

At my job we have 5 Prius's and they get used to run all of our errands. For that they do a great job. But, if I were out buying a car right now, I have to say I would prefer a 14k dollar Elantra, and pocket the other 12k. I would never make up that difference in gas, plus I would get a 10 year warrantee over the Prius's 8.

jaicar

Ready to buy a 2009 Prius Pkg. # 6. Got a price in So. Cal. of $27,900. Anybody do better? If so, dealer?

kdhspyder

Right now no vehicle above $25000 is moving. Nothing. Everything is backed up on the lots. It takes about 6 months to slow the flow of shipments or to speed them up when demand changes. Remember in the spring when demand went out of sight and every Prius in the US was sold and waiting lists went to 6 months. Suddenly BLAM !! the market stops buying. All the efforts to catch up with those unfilled orders started flowing in here in Oct. That's when the public stopped buying. Fun business to be in at this time aye?

As regards the currency issue here is the data. See for yourself.

A $25000 Prius MSRP is shipped from Japan and sold to TMS here for about $20000 ( round numbers ). When that sale was made over the last 5 yrs with the Y/$ at about 110-120 : 1. That sale in the US returned about 2.3 MM JY to Toyota in sales revenue.

Today at 94 JY / US$ that same sale returns 1.9 MM JY. That's about a 20% loss in sales revenue. Why ship these to the States when they can be sold at home or in Europe or SE Asia with no currency loss?

kdhspyder

The Yaris is fine for short trips of a few miles and/or for the young of body and budget.

Under no circumstance will I ever consider owning/driving a Yaris given my personal situation. Thus in this case it is not even an option. The new Corolla, with certain amenities, is as small as I will go.

If I want to hold down purchase costs to be in the Yaris price range than I'm looking at a 3-4 year old Prius with 40000 miles or so on the clock. In this case I get the best of all options. The problem is finding one now. After getting 48 mpg in relative comfort these past 3 yrs there is no way I can go backwards in room, amenities, safety features and fuel economy.

kdhspyder

Ah Ha. You first must decide a few priorities.

Are you speaking of buying only NEW vehicles? Then yes the base model Elantra is a bargain and a logical choice. Personally I will not drive in anything that small. Just a personal choice.

But if your priority is minimizing the total cost of transportation then you have to open up the possibility of buying a used (xxx) ( Civic, Corolla, Prius, Elantra, Fusion ). Then it's just a matter of how cheap do you want to go? The baseline choice is a bicycle. Why not in good weather for short distances. I do that here on the Outer Banks in summer.

gagrice

Are the Prius selling well in the EU or Asia?

I do see the good side. With Toyota building a Prius factory in the USA, it will strengthen our weakening auto industry. When GM and Chrysler bite the bullet. Toyota should buy Jeep now that they are dumping that POC FJ Cruiser. Corvette would just about fill out the roster for ToyLex.

Kirstie_H

This discussion is a better place for your question (and to look at others' previous comments):
Toyota Prius Prices Paid and Buying Experience

railroadjames

Addressing the issue presented here, I'd say that any vehicle is subject to this downturn recession. This period, that has all of us guessing just when will we hit bottom, is scary and no one is exempt. Well, maybe CEO's with huge parachutes. The industry as a whole is undergoing a stagnent period. Motorcycles, R.V.'s and automobiles and the like are in a tail spin. Indiana has record breaking unemployment due to R.V. no sales.and it's still rising. The steel industry too is also going thru dire times. Steel production falling off. Everyone looks to the Government to bail out Banks, Federal Corp.'s and now the Automakers. Tighten your seatbelts this is going to be a rough ride. I & many of my friends are still glad we own our Prius's as gas prices tumble. It was a tollerable ride thru the ups & downs of high gas prices.

larsb

Gary says, "Toyota has put all its marbles into the wrong markets. The US buyer is fickle. And the meager Prius sales when gas is cheap, attests to my belief."

Gas prices and Prius sales do not have a direct correlation:

Sales in 2004: 53,991 Avg gas price 2004: $1.895

Sales in 2005: 107,897 Avg gas price 2005: $2.314
Gas prices went up, and so did Prius sales.

Sales in 2006: 106,971 Avg gas price 2006: $2.618
Gas prices went WAY up, and Prius sales BARELY dipped.

Sales in 2007: 181,221 Avg gas price 2007: $2.843
Gas prices went up, Prius sales went WAY up.

Sales in 2008: 158,884 Avg gas price 2008: $3.299
Gas prices went WAY up, Prius sales went DOWN.

There is no direct relationship between gas prices and Prius sales. People do not ONLY buy Priuses when gas prices are high.

People stopped buying Priuses when ALL car sales dropped. Not for any other reason.

gagrice

Prius sales were off 61.5% last month. That is even worse than GM SUV sales. Heck Sequoia sales are only down 36% for the year. Compared to Prius being down 50% for the first 4 months. You are a dyed in the wool hybrid fanatic. That is the bottom line. People quit buying Prius last year when the price of gas dropped. You can try and spin it all you like. It will not change the facts.

larsb

I gave you the facts, and you are trying to spin it into something it's not.

Facts are facts and your opinion is your opinion. They do not become facts just because you opine them, mi amigo.

explorerx4

poor lars,
the reason sales did not incease as gas prices went up was due to supply.
this was well documented. unit prices were way up.
eco 101.

larsb

Hybrid Sales 101:

People don't STOP buying hybrids just because gas prices go down. Sales might dip a LITTLE, but they don't fall off a cliff.

Prius sales, just like all car sales, fell off a cliff because of the economy. Not merely because of lower gas prices.

lemko

Strange! You'd have thought Prius sales would've peaked last summer!

gagrice

How about a compromise. Prius sales are down 60% because they are over priced for what you get!

I know my pastor friend is having a horrible time getting anyone to take over his Toyota lease that cannot be transferred to Hawaii. That still boggles my mind that you cannot move when you have a Toyota lease. A good reason not to buy from them. And another chink in their armor. What part does their ambitious hybrid plans have in their enormous loss the first quarter. Even worse than bankrupt GM. Maybe they have lied to US and they are selling every hybrid at a loss. No way to know the truth with their closed society.

andre1969

People don't STOP buying hybrids just because gas prices go down. Sales might dip a LITTLE, but they don't fall off a cliff.

Sure they do. Remember, people panic, and follow every little trend like it's going to go on forever. Then when it changes, they quickly forget.

Although you are right, the crashing economy was probably the primary factor in Prius sales drying up. However, when gas prices were shooting up, I imagine a lot of Prius sales were "pulled forward", and the market eventually got saturated.

Also, didn't the currency exhange rate between Japan and the US make the Prius unprofitable to sell in the US, so they purposely started cutting back the supply?

larsb

Oh, God, Gary, how many times do we have to hear about your Priest friend who had a problem with Toyota FINANCE?

Toyota is not the only company who does not allow cars to move. They are not alone in anything they do.

larsb

See my post #66 in this Forum about the Prius sales statistics. Proof positive that there is no linear relationship between Prius sales and gas prices.

andre1969

See my post #66 in this Forum about the Prius sales statistics. Proof positive that there is no linear relationship between Prius sales and gas prices.

What I'd like to see is a month-by-month breakdown. 2008 was a very wild year with fluctuations. At its worst, I was paying over $4.00 per gallon. But towards the end of the year, I was paying as little as $1.49 per gallon, which was the lowest I'd seen since perhaps May of 2003. Heck, I still remember the very first fill-up that I gave my Intrepid, way back in November of 1999, at $1.39 per gallon.

Also, I'm not saying that fuel prices are the ONLY factor in determining Prius sales. But they were a factor.

larsb

andre1969 says, "Also, I'm not saying that fuel prices are the ONLY factor in determining Prius sales. But they were a factor."

No more of a factor than it was a factor for any other fuel-efficient car - not just the Prius.

When gas prices go down significantly, fickle American car buyers have historically gone for luxury and size, and that has changed a little bit.

People understand now that we are not going to have cheap gas all the time, forever. And I think 5 years ago the majority of Americans DID believe that cheap gas was here forever.

larsb

Sales not being affected by recession for the new Insight in Japan:

Insight Becomes First Hybrid Vehicle to Rank as Best-Selling Vehicle* in Japan

gagrice

And why didn't the Prius get their first? Someone posted an article that Toyota is not highly regarded in Japan like it is here in the USA.

kdhspyder

You can't look at one month and tell anything. That's a typical forest/trees issue.

Last April was one of the greatest months in sales for all hybrids as the public realized that gas prices were going to go out of sight. In March of last year an astute buyer could and did get a 'deal' on a Prius. 45 days later by May 5th every Prius in the US was gone. Pffttt snapped up during the month of April.

Thus to compare any month to last April is disingenious, last April was an aberation. It's not worth looking at any figure except the year over year totals. That's all the matters. I've been doing this for 35 yrs in three different industries. The shortest time frame that matters is a quarterly comparison. Even that's too short. That's the way sales are.

See my post above about why total sales are down last year and this year. IT'S INTENTIONAL!!!!! No spin those are the facts.

kdhspyder

poor lars,
the reason sales did not incease as gas prices went up was due to supply.
this was well documented. unit prices were way up.
eco 101.

Yes this is precisely the case. The sudden spike in fuel prices caught every maker unawares and autos/trucks are not products that you can turn on and off at the whims of the marketplace. The sudden spike in fuel prices sucked every last unit out of every dealer in the US and supply never caught up with deman until Oct 1....when the market suddenly turned 180 deg and headed south falling off a cliff. All during last summer when there was hyper-demand every store was short of supply meaning every store missed sales.

This was exacerbated during the summer by a dollar that fell like a rock so Toyota didn't try to ship anything extra to meet the hyper-demand.

Then buyers stopped buying when the banks began failing and credit dried up temporarily. Weird year.

larsb

Gary says, "Someone posted an article that Toyota is not highly regarded in Japan like it is here in the USA."

I have never heard THAT before. I tend to doubt that source. Maybe they just found a few owners in Japan who are not happy and made an assumption for the whole country? Where is that link?

But if true, it's reasonable in a WAY, because of the style of driving and the roads in Japan, and probably the pricing issue. Most Japanese people don't need a midsize car - they get along with smaller cars.

The Insight got there first because it's:

1. New
2. Cheaper

kdhspyder

They would have if the vehicle makers had any advance notice that fuel prices were going to go through the roof. But like everybody else in the world they were caught flat-footed. The lead time on increasing demand is 4 months minimum and 6 months typically. I was in that business for 30 yrs.

On top of that the US$ fell like a rock versus the JY so Toyota pulled back the supply of exports for the 2nd half of last year and all of this year.

kdhspyder

The Prius was always scheduled for production in April 09 with sales starting in May/June. Again forest/trees. The only figure that counts is year-end total sales.

The Insight II has had a free playing field for these last two months and next as the Gen 2 Prius winds down and the Gen 3 ramps up. Revisit this at the end of the year.

gagrice

I am agreeing with you. The fuel prices were the main impetus in the sales of the Prius last year. It is Larsb that hates to believe that could be the main reason that hybrids sell well.

larsb

How many times I have to post this?

Gary says, "Toyota has put all its marbles into the wrong markets. The US buyer is fickle. And the meager Prius sales when gas is cheap, attests to my belief."

Gas prices and Prius sales do not have a direct correlation:

Sales in 2004: 53,991 Avg gas price 2004: $1.895

Sales in 2005: 107,897 Avg gas price 2005: $2.314
Gas prices went up, and so did Prius sales.

Sales in 2006: 106,971 Avg gas price 2006: $2.618
Gas prices went WAY up, and Prius sales BARELY dipped.

Especially notice the data in the last two years:

Sales in 2007: 181,221 Avg gas price 2007: $2.843
Gas prices went up, Prius sales went WAY up.

Sales in 2008: 158,884 Avg gas price 2008: $3.299
Gas prices went WAY up, Prius sales went DOWN.

There is no direct linear relationship between gas prices and Prius sales.

And people do not ONLY buy Priuses when gas prices are high.

People stopped buying Priuses when ALL car sales dropped. Not merely because gas prices came down.

gagrice

"Have it your way Toyota!"

dave8697

Tax incentives
pay a lot to not pollute
save gas
when gas was at $4, they said it will soon be $7
stop oil imports
I have to drive very far
availability
additional dealer margin
the health of the economy

these are 9 of the many factors affecting Prius sales.

gas prices ramped down from late Oct thru mid Dec 2008

what is the aug 2008 to jan 2009 prius sales look like as high gas ended?

larsb

Yes, I agree on many of those factors.

I'm just pointing out that Prius sales don't fall off a cliff when gas is cheap.

A lot of Priuses sold BEFORE the gas spikes started.

newyorker6

How does it look for leasing a 2009 Prius these days. I understand they may be hard to find. ??

larsb

Wait a few weeks and lease the greatly improved 2010 model....:)

gagrice

They are overflowing the lots in CA. Take a vacation and drive one home. The dealers in San Diego list 60 available today. Use the Edmund's inventory feature for all the dealers in your area. I am sure the 2010 will be in short supply most of this year. Dealers will not have to deal on them to sell.

larsb

Slam Diego is such a tiny Burg.

Here in Phx we have 212 listed for sale.

They are not short in supply.

Our New York friend's first post was this one....interesting....????

larsb

Apparently, not with the 2010 Prius:

REPORT: Toyota already has 75,000 orders for 2010 Prius

gagrice

75,000 cars world wide will not shake the losses from the Toyota bottom line. They had to drop the price of the Prius to compete with the Honda Insight. And they are still butt ugly. If they only planned on 40,000, will it leave 35k disgruntled people with a car on order? They only sold 73K Prius all last year. So I would say the economics and cheap gas have impacted hybrid sales. I don't think Toyota really cares. They probably make more money on a non hybrid Camry built here in the USA.

archer1

I bought a 2009 Prius w/#2 package $21K out the door. Sticker was $24,500. I have put 350 mile on it and absolutely love it. I can't say enough good about the car. I drove the Honda insight and felt the Prius was a better car. Quieter, roomier feel, handled better, and a little more pep. MPG currently 45.

newyorker6

I was looking and sitting in the Prius this past weekend in South NJ and being 6' tall I really felt cramped. Not enough left leg room for my long drives down to the shore each weekend. I was very disappointed and not sure what to do. I guess when in doubt do nothing. Has anyone else felt the same way? Does anyone know of a new car with all the high mileage that gives driver comfort too??

gagrice

Try the VW Jetta TDI. Many are getting 50 MPG on the road. They are much better handling than the Prius. Better quality materials overall. I think you would really like the Sportwagen if you haul lots of stuff to the beach. My few rides with a friend in his 2009 Prius was not very impressive. Noisy and rough riding.

larsb

2009 Jetta TDI interior specs
Internal dimensions:
front headroom (inches): 38.4,
rear headroom (inches): 38.1,
front leg room (inches): 41.1,
rear leg room (inches): 35.5,
front shoulder room (inches): 54.8,
rear shoulder room (inches): 53.1
and interior volume (cu ft): 91.7

2009 Prius interior specs
Internal dimensions:
front headroom (inches): 39.1,
rear headroom (inches): 37.1,
front hip room (inches): 51.0,
rear hip room (inches): 51.6,
front leg room (inches): 41.9,
rear leg room (inches): 38.6,
front shoulder room (inches): 55.0,
rear shoulder room (inches): 52.9
and interior volume (cu ft): 96.2

Prius bigger for the driver than the Jetta TDI

gagrice

I can tell you your figures are a myth. Go sit in both then get back to me. I have and the numbers do not match reality. Same goes for the Accord and Civic that my head touches the headliner. I don't like driving with the seat tilted back to have enough headroom. Besides he already said HE DID NOT LIKE THE PRIUS. He is looking for an alternative that gets equal mileage. Maybe you have some other options in that price range and MPG.

PS
Luggage space in the Sportwagen is over double the Prius.

larsb

Math is not a myth. Those are actual measurements.

larsb

Gary screamed, "HE DID NOT LIKE THE PRIUS."

He said he thought the driver position was cramped - not that he "did not like" the Prius. But I was not pushing him into a Prius at all.

I was just letting him know that if the thought a Prius driver position was cramped, that the Jetta will be more cramped. That's the extent of the advice I was giving him.

If he thinks the driver positions on those two cars are too cramped, then there ARE no "high-mileage" options for a man his size, at least ones which I know about.