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Full Sized Vans

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  • midasgoldmidasgold Member Posts: 65
    Basically, full-sized vans are manufactured (by GM/Ford/Dodge) either as cargo vans, with no side windows (except possibly in the rear and side doors), and seats only for the driver and front passenger, with the rest of the van left bare for cargo; or as passenger vans, with OEM windows all around and OEM seating for 5-15 people. Conversion vans almost always start out as cargo vans (with a special "conversion package" to facilitate customization), and the conversion companies add their own "custom" windows, seats, etc.
  • llounge125llounge125 Member Posts: 7
    Thanks for the answer. First, what is OEM? Second, in a passesnger van, do the back seats fold flat into a bed, or do you get that only with a conversion van? Third, with a conversion van, do you buy the empty van and order the conversion, or do you buy a pre-converted van?

    Let me explain what I'm looking for generally. I have always liked the feel of driving up high with plenty of room (I'm 6'2''). Also, I want to start taking long driving trips with one other person, sometimes my girlfriend, other times my dad. When I'm not driving, I would like to be able to lie flat. I don't require a big comfy bed feel. Ever lie back in a recliner as far as it would go? For awhile that's comfortable, but at some point you just have to lie flat on the couch. Take that analogy over to travel.

    I also will use the vehicle for day-to-day city driving. My original thought was a minivan with removable seats. I could take out all seats but the front two for a trip, and put a twin air mattress in the back to lie flat. But it would be manageable for city driving, and I had this notion it would be much cheaper than a full-size van.

    i'm just into my research, and I'm stunned that minis and full-sizes seem to cost about the same. Not knowing anything about their prices, I would never have imagined that.

    I have no children and no plans to have any, so the primary purpose of a minivan does not apply to me. So given pricing, I am interested in a full-size, but I'm thoroughly confused. Buying a car, you deal with just the dealer, and when you drive it off the lot that's the end of the story. But with vans, I'm confused by the conversion company / manufacturer / dealer relationship, and all these differences and terms that I've read at this website. I can't even remember now how I got to this site in the first place!

    Any help anyone could give me would be greatly appreciated.
  • twc_detwc_de Member Posts: 10
    You have several options when it comes to a van. I will briefly explain each option with the easiest one listed first.

    1. Go pick a fully customized van off the dealers lot. Drive it away. This way you will get a top notch van, but you may have to compromise on some things. You may have to compromise on things like color, or you may have to buy some things you don't realy want. Maybe you didn't want a TV, or you wanted blue not gray carpet, etc. (just like when you buy a car off the lot)

    2 Go to a dealer, tell them the chasis (1/2 ton, 3/4 ton, long wheelbase, standard wheelbase and color) you want. Then decide on the "fancies" you want (folding bed, center captains chairs, TV,VCR, wet bar, etc.) they will then order the van and arange for it to be customized to your EXACT specifications. It gets shipped from the factory to the upfitter, customized, then shipped to the dealer where you take delivery just as you do any other car. The dealer will handle all repairs at their shop. You get exavctly what you want, nothing more, nothing less. It will take anywhere from a few weeks to a few months until you get your perfect dream van.

    3. You can go to a dealer and purchase a passenger (window) van or a cargo van and have them arrange to have the "fancies" installed at a local upfitter. They can handle 99% of any repairs there at the dealer and they can send it back to the upfitter for anything serious (after all, it's probably only a few miles from the dealer) With this method, you get a les expensive vehichle and a good vehichle.
  • twc_detwc_de Member Posts: 10
    There are 2 more options you have which I forgot to mention in my last note. They are...

    1. You can buy a van from the dealer (passenger or cargo) and then take it to an upfitter and have them install a sofa-bed (and any other goodies you may want). If and when you need repairs, you can get the van worked on at the dealer, but you would have to go back to to your upfitter for any repairs to your sofa-bed (or other items you had them install)

    2. Buy a van and then contact J.C.Whitney and Sears and request a truck & RV accessory catalog. Order a sofa-bed and other accessories you want and install them yourself. J.C.Whitney also lists many more items (curtains, insulation, tables, etc.) in their regular catalog (though the pictures aren't as good)

    Did I explain everything, or just confuse you more?
  • llounge125llounge125 Member Posts: 7
    You explained it perfectly. Thank you very much.
  • llounge125llounge125 Member Posts: 7
    I didn't follow the phrase "with OEM windows all around and OEM seating for 5-15 people" in post 116. I don't know what OEM means, and 5 to 15 is a big difference!
  • C13C13 Member Posts: 390
    Original Equipment Manufacturer. That is, 'stock'. As opposed to 'aftermarket' or 'custom'.

    As for the 5 to 15 thing, that's just the range that the vans fall into. You can get seating for 2, 5, 8, 12 or 15 depending on your needs and wants.

    One odd layout that I think I might like is a long wheelbase window van with minimal seating - probably 4 captains chairs. You'd probably have to buy it with all the bench seats and take them out yourself.

    I know. I have kinky tastes.
  • twc_detwc_de Member Posts: 10
    It's not an odd configuration at all. I saw 1 converted at a dealer last fall. It had the 2 front captains chairs, 2 in the middle, a LARGE table next, a sofa-bed, then 2 captains chairs in rear. It had been ordered by a local corporation as a rollong conference center/shuttle between corporate branch offices throughout the state.

    I once had a regulare lenth window van with 4 captains chairs (if you turned the front ones around each one made a small bed) and a sofa-bed in the rear. I loved the van except when we used it as a camper it was cold (because of all the glass) and curtains were hard to find.

    If you are considering something like that, check out http://www.customcraft.com. They do that type of conversion all the time. They look realy sharp but I don't want that much glass again.
  • llounge125llounge125 Member Posts: 7
    "I once had a regulare lenth window van with 4
    captains chairs (if you turned the front ones
    around each one made a small bed) and a sofa-bed inthe rear."

    That's exactly what I want!

    I tried that link you posted, and got some message like "directory not found."
  • llounge125llounge125 Member Posts: 7
    The exact message was "unable to retrieve directory."
  • C13C13 Member Posts: 390
    Their server's down or something.

    Yeah, I like that layout. The glass has its good and bad aspects. I might choose to skip it too.
  • midasgoldmidasgold Member Posts: 65
    Oops - sorry for not defining OEM, and thanks to whomever stepped up to the plate and fielded that for me in my absence. :-)

    Anyway... so, here we are - waiting for our 12-passenger (short wheelbase) Savana to be built... We ordered it with 12 seats because we have a large family and occasionally need to carry extra passengers; and we chose the shorter length so we can dock our barge in our garage and in (most) parking spots.

    ...So, now I'm wondering... what *else* can we do with this van? Behind the driver and front passenger, it's going to have 2 3-seat benches and 1 4-seat bench. We anticipate taking one or more of the benches out occasionally when cargo needs exceed passenger needs - what options do we have? Can we find a bed that could be exchanged with one or more of the benches? What about an itty-bitty porta-potty to "eliminate" desperate searches for filty public restrooms during long trips? Is there a way to put a potty in the 'way back of the van and have some kind of removable privacy wall around it?

    It just seems that we have a concentration of van expertise here right now (a commodity that's hard to find anywhere else) and I'd like to take advantage of it while I can... ;-)
  • midasgoldmidasgold Member Posts: 65
    You mentioned getting a large van with few seats - and assumed that you'd have to buy it with all the seats and take them out. Actually, you *can* specify fewer seats. For example, our Savana 2500 comes with 12 seats standard, but there are option codes to delete one (possible more?) benches, with the cost subtracted, and order it with 8 (and maybe even 5) seats...
  • llounge125llounge125 Member Posts: 7
    First, thanks to all of you for answering my questions in detail - I'm starting to understand all this.

    Here's what I think I would want. Two captain's chairs up-front. A bench seat the first row back. Then a sofa-bed. Regular size van. Pretty much what twc described, except the bench seat instead of the captain's chairs on the second row.

    Now, where do you put the luggage? Also, to order this, do I start at a dealership or with a conversion company? Could someone walk me step-by step through the process I should go through to get this van? One thing that concerns me is, will I be able to "see" this configuration, even if only from pictures. I lack the ability to accurately visualize things.
  • JonceJonce Member Posts: 2
    I am looking into a full sized 1994-1996 Ford Econoline - will it fit in my garage (height of garage door=82.5")?

    I haven't brought one home yet. I found the height of the 1998-9 models (80.6").

    Any help?

    Thanks,
    Rick
  • chairmakerchairmaker Member Posts: 7
    Rick,

    I have a '97 Club Wagon Chateau and can get it into my garage with the same door opening height as yours. I did, however, have to remove the inside lift handle from the bottom of the door just for my peace of mind, though I have about 3 inches to spare.

    Chairmaker
  • JonceJonce Member Posts: 2
    Thanks alot guys. Carpoint had the dimensions for the older model years while Edmunds did not.

    Again, Thanks,

    Rick
  • C13C13 Member Posts: 390
    So does it fit? Are you gonna have to dig trenches in your garage floor? Raise the roof? Let air out of the tires? Go to 40-series tires? (That always looks sharp on a van.)
  • midasgoldmidasgold Member Posts: 65
    Can't wait to see if that Savana is gonna fit in our garage... on paper, it does - but who knows what we'll discover when we bring "baby" home...
  • C13C13 Member Posts: 390
    You could probably set up a system where you carry some empty drums in the van, pump water in before you pull in to get the suspension all the way down on the stops, pump em back out into a holding tank after you pull out to go to work in the morning. You'll just have to allow a few extra minutes.

    Hell, if you happen to have a forklift you could just load a 1-ton pallette through the van's side door. Piece o'cake.

    I was working on a magnetic system too, but I'm afraid it could render you sterile.
  • jeff84jeff84 Member Posts: 13
    Llounge, If your are going to all that trouble to design the perfect van for you get it made to order or find a close fit used. I just bought a used Sportsmobile camper van for just my wife, me, and my ugly dog. We found it on the internet at www.sportsmobile.com They can make just about any style you want. e-mail them and have them send you information. I bought a 95 in Texas but I looked in California too. I didn't want tv's or running boards. I wanted a back road camper and thats just what I got. Good luck. Jeff
  • C13C13 Member Posts: 390
    Good point. Conversions are a steal for the second buyer and a big loss for the first. Their value on the used car market is no more than a stock, unconverted van.

    I'd consider it myself if I weren't allergic to particle board.
  • ViperggVipergg Member Posts: 24
    I bought a conversion last year and the funny thing was it was less than a mid size car . I bought a Dodge 2500 extended length van . It had everything I need , 4 captain chairs , sofa bed in back , power locks, windows , cruise, front and rear air and heat , chrome wheels and white letter tires , 318 V8 engine and it cost all of $18400 . You can't beat this deal . I'm pretty happy with it so far , some minor leaks that had to be taken care of otherwise it has been good , nice to travel in , taking our first really long trip to Florida soon so I'll see how it is after that .
  • jeff84jeff84 Member Posts: 13
    C13 somehow the smell of particle board isn't that bad when your sitting on the shore of lake powell having a glass of wine, cooking in the van and listing to some mellow music. I don't seem to dwell on the construction materials. Jeff
  • C13C13 Member Posts: 390
    It's not the smell of the stuff; it's the principle of the thing. Making things out of a material that's both heavy and weak is against my religion. It does make good speaker cabinets though.

    I have to agree with the rest of your post. I aspire to obtain a similar portable living room.
  • mrh3108mrh3108 Member Posts: 41
    Most good quality vans use a thin sheet (about 1/4") of plywood covering fiberglass insulation. The cheaper vans will often use a strong posterboard/cardboard type material for their walls.

    Steer clear of the cardboard but don't knock the plywood--sawdust is full of good natural fiber should you happen to breath it in.
  • C13C13 Member Posts: 390
    I got nothin aginst plywood. Hell, if you're handy, you could build a whole van out of it. That'd be some custom, eh? Might be just the justification I need for a new table saw.

    There've been lots of good airplanes with plywood airframes and skins.
  • jeff84jeff84 Member Posts: 13
    Saw a full length motor home ( 35') today in town fully shingled with cedar shingles and it even had the 8"x18" with a 1/2 round on the bottom all across the front. The side door was a solid core oak with stain glass and.... I swear I saw Jerry Garcia get out and go into a print shop. Mrs. Garcia was still in the mobil cabin with Granny Garcia in the back working on a quilt. Some how My day seemed a little bit lighter. It was the most flat front I have ever seen on a motor home. They were on the road and I was working. They win. Jeff
  • twc_detwc_de Member Posts: 10
    You can get everything you want for your van in the J.C.Whitney catalog.

    You can get the captain chairs and matching sofa-bed. They sell a mounting kit for the sofa-bed that allows you to remove it and leave a flat surface for cargo or your factory bench seat.

    From what I have been told and have read, you CAN NOT get swivel pedistals for the front seats. Aparently they do not pass crash tests. You MAY be able to purchase swivel pedistals and install them yourself with a few modifications, but I can not find anyone around here that will do the installation for you. Just be sure of what is under the seats. My Chevy van has the airbag controler under the drivers seat (they CAN'T be moved)

    You can even get your porta-potty. the privacy curtain may require a little imagination, a pair of scissors and a bunch of velcro. I rigged a curtain behind the front seats using snaps (like a tonneau cover on pick-up use) and a heavy duty shower curtain. This allows you to drive at night while the passengers in the back, use the lights without blinding glare.
  • midasgoldmidasgold Member Posts: 65
    Thanks, twc_de! I'll check out JC Whitney...

    I'm not interested in changing the factory front seats, but the sofa bed is interesting... IF, as you say, it can be interchangeable with the factory benches.

    Thanks again!
  • C13C13 Member Posts: 390
    For my own purposes, a good air mattress is ideal: lightweight, and it stows. Anything else takes up an awful lot of space. Add a large sleeping bag and you're set.

    There are lots of nice, quiet, small compressors on the market that you can plug into a cigarette lighter.
  • midasgoldmidasgold Member Posts: 65
    Good point, C13 - I seem to recall one be hawked on late-night (or is it early morning?) infomercials...
  • rvillersrvillers Member Posts: 1
    I'm new to full-size discussion area, and am happy
    to see dedicated area for these. I use a full-size
    van which has been converted into a wheelchair driver van. this is a 1998 Ford E-150 Club Wagon,
    7000 GVW, 4.6 V-8, 3.55 Traction-Lock. I'm curious if anybody has a vehicle similar to mine: 4" dropped floor w/2" body lift kit, raised doors, swivel drivers-seat for transfer from chair to seat. Also, does anybody have comments about overall durability of Econoline/Club wagon, and quality of Triton V-8's, transmissions, rear ends, cooling, etc. This cost enough, and I hope to get 200K out of the van (I only have 10K now). Again, nice site!
  • C13C13 Member Posts: 390
    Welcome, Ralph. Interesting rig.

    As for the info you seek, I know nothing about it. Maybe the others here have some experience with it.

    PS To all:
    I might be close to actually buying mine. I need it for work. I might sell the Civic and buy a 10-yr old basic box. Basics's my preference. I'll slowly, gradually get it set up the way I want it. First step is a good stereo.
  • smp1smp1 Member Posts: 1
    hi,
    im dan and i own a 96' club wagon it kicks [non-permissible content removed]!
    it has the 5.8 bronco engine and I am hoping to lower it and but a s.c. in the engine bay
  • 99999999 Member Posts: 2
    Nice to see some full-size talk.
    I'm from sweden and i'm planning to import a full-size van from 1990-1993. I think it will be a chevy van, but i don't no. Is there anyone out there who know where to goto? I've heard about goverment auctions, but i don't know. I'm happy for any help i can get. Sorry for my bad english.
  • C13C13 Member Posts: 390
    Your English is better than that of most Americans.

    Are you talking about buying one in the states and shipping it to Sweden?

    I'm interested in getting into auctions myself but it's a long, slow learning curve. I certainly wouldn't plan on buying something at the first auction I go to.

    There are classified ads on the net. Infoseek has a bunch. It's easy to navigate to from Infoseek's home page. I'd also look at the paper classified publications we have in the states: Auto Trader, etc. They're available at the ubiquitous Quickie Marts. Newspapers can be good too.
  • 99999999 Member Posts: 2
    Yes, i'm talking about buying one and take it to Sweden. Do you have an adress to anyone? (wwww.?)
    What's Quickie Marts? I'm looking for a diesel van. What's the name of the newspapers ?
    I'm very glad for all the help

    Thank's very much.
  • C13C13 Member Posts: 390
    Try this:

    http://www.classifieds2000.com/cgi-cls/Display.exe?Infoseek+Auto+Car+Search

    Are you saying that you're planning to do this from Sweden? It's one thing to come here and find a van and ship it back, but if you want to do the whole transaction long-range, it seems like it's going to take an awful lot of work and money.

    If you must have a diesel, I'd get a Cummins engine, and means a Dodge van. Ford and GM use converted gas engines and they have a lot of problems. Others here may know more about it than I.

    'Quickie Mart' doesn't apply if you're not going to be here. It's a store where they sell a little of everything, and they have these classified ad magazines.

    I know I've seen full-size Ford vans in Europe. Aren't there any others imported? Are you willing to pay that much extra to import one, as opposed to buying what's available?
  • midasgoldmidasgold Member Posts: 65
    We saw many GMC Savanas in Israel - and I'm pretty sure they were predominantly diesel.
  • ernesternest Member Posts: 30
    With all this talk about options, I didn't hear anything about rear axle ratios. I am going to order a 2000 Chev Express passenger van with a 5.7 liter engine (unless they use the new engines for 2000)with a locking rear differential (I think, based on what I've heard here). There is a choice of 3.73 and 3.42, if memory serves. I was leaning toward the 3.73, figuring that the 3.42 would not save enough gas to offset the possible loss of power in the 3.73. Your views on options are invited.:)
  • C13C13 Member Posts: 390
    That's my impression too. You could even get the 4.10 if you really wanted to go nuts, but I think the 3.73 is a safe bet for a wide range of use.

    Are you gonna be towing much?
  • midasgoldmidasgold Member Posts: 65
    Check the specs, but I'm pretty sure you can't get a locking rear diff. with a 3.42 - it needs to be at least a 3.73. You might try going to Carpoint, building an Express there, and trying to include a locking diff. - see if it forces you into certain axle ratios.

    Our Savana 2500 (if it ever arrives...) is supposed to have a locking diff. and a 3.73 (and a 5.7L engine).
  • walshjwalshj Member Posts: 5
    On Feb 3 I ordered an Express 1500 with the 5.0 liter engine and a locking 3.42 differential. From other Chevy truck owners I've taked to you can expect a 5 to 10% decrease in milage with the higher ratio axel. If you tow frequently or tow heavy loads the higher ratio axel is a must. The disadvantage is operating at 10% higer RPMs than necessary when not towing.

    BTW finally got a build date for our van (12 Apr) which means about 12 weeks from order to delivery.
  • midasgoldmidasgold Member Posts: 65
    Then maybe we were limited to no lower than 3.73 because our Savana is a 2500...

    You ordered on 2/3 and you got a build date already? We ordered on 1/13 and STILL don't have a build date!

    Before posting this, I called my salesman (again) and asked him about our order. He said, "I told you last time that you're getting your van this month." I said, I know that, but it's 3/25 already and we still don't even have a build date. Then I told him that I met someone who ordered a Chevy Express on 2/3 and got a build date already, to which he replied that that's because the Express is a cargo van! I said, "No, it's a passenger van." He said, "ALL Expresses are cargo vans." I said, "No - until this year, the Chevy passenger vans were called 'Express' and the cargo vans were called 'Chevy Van' - but for 1999, they appled the 'Express' name across the board." "Well, anyway," he said, "I still don't even have an invoice on your van." It's been over 10 weeks now!

    So, please tell me: is your Express a cargo van or a passenger van?
  • ernesternest Member Posts: 30
    Midasgold,
    It's amazing how many GM sale people are ignorant about the products they sell. I went to two Chev.dealers who did not know what an Express van was. I went to a GMC dealer and he tried to show me a Safari, thinking that is what I meant - because he didn't know about Savana van. Maybe a good training exercise for them would be to look at their own web site or even read their brochures.
  • midasgoldmidasgold Member Posts: 65
    You said it, Ernest! All my salesman knows is GMC. *I'M* the one who's been researching both the Savana and the Express (for a couple of years!) - so I'm sure I'm much more knowledgeable about the Chevy Express than he is!
  • mrh3108mrh3108 Member Posts: 41
    Try calling GMC's or Chevy's customer service line to ask a question-- that's a real experience in futility. You'd think they would know what current incentives on their vehicles were but I was frequently misquoted, often getting '98 incentives for '99 vehicle prices. The same often goes for dealer sales staff.

    If you have a technical question the dealer's mechanics (I'm sorry, "technicians") are unable to answer you are completely out of luck.

    My experiences were scattered across numerous dealers over several months. Smart people do the bulk of their research outside of the dealer lot.
  • walshjwalshj Member Posts: 5
    The Express 1500 we ordered is a passenger van : ) Our salesman must be an exception. He is well versed on the various GM products. He did confess he had little experience with non-conversion full size passenger vans. However, he asked the right questions regarding our intended use for the van and helped us make logical choices regarding oprions and powertrain. He was familiar with the incentives and rebates.

    I used a speadsheet that included MSRP, Invoice, Holdback, Floorplan fees, Incentives, and Rebate information. It included 5% profit over the calculated dealer cost. The salesman was straightup with me and said the figures were valid. (Thanks Edmunds) Bottomline, we paid $24,600 for a van with a window sticker of $29,100.

    This is my first experience with a new vehicle from a US manufacturer. I hope I will continue to be as pleased after we take delivery.

    As for axel ratios, you may be right about the 3.73 being the standard ratio on the 2500. It's GVW is #8600 vs. #7100 for the 1500.
  • twc_detwc_de Member Posts: 10
    I am almost certain the 3.73 rear is standard with GVWR 8600....

    BUT not all 2500 vans have qan 8600 GVWR, it's an option on some models/options and standard on others. Some model/option configurations require other options or equipment to be added as well.

    REMEMBER...
    If you get the higher GVWR, it will ride a little rougher

    Conclusion...
    Get the 3.73 rear if you plan on doing any of the following on a regular basis...
    1. Carrying a full load (passengers, luggage, cargo, whatever)
    2. Towing anything larger than a couple jet ski's, snowmobiles, etc.
    3. Drive in mountain areas.

    Get the 3.42 rear if you only plan to...
    1. Drive mostly on flat open highways.
    2. Partly loaded (I mean weight not alcahol)
    3. Tow a jet ski or 2 short dist. (under 100 miles)

    Don't concern yourself with fuel mieage, when you are driving a "house" down the road, your mileage will be low. But seriously, when I tested the 5.0 engine with the 3.42 and 3.73 rears, there was less than 0.7 MPG difference in fuel mileage on the dyno. I would guess the 5.7 with the 3.73 would show about 1 MPG less than with a 3.42.
This discussion has been closed.