Photo Radar

13468938

Comments

  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    There you go again, accusing people who don't think as you do of merely being "gullible and uninformed." ( you really need to reign in that behavior - it's neither attractive nor effective in helping you make your point - you just irritate people when you say that. )

    Can't post a link, but an editorial today in the Tempe Republic news was written by a local who passes through the most-strictly-enforced photo radar areas in Tempe every day.

    He says he "has noticed people driving slower" in the areas where most of the cameras are. He himself makes sure he slows down in those areas.

    That's the second recent article ( the other one was a freeway driver who drives
    daily in the photo radar freeway areas ) which was commented on by a local that they appreciate the slower-moving traffic and the reduced number of speed demons on the roads.

    That's all the cameras need to do. Slow down excessively speeding drivers. They are serving the intended purpose, AND taxing the excessive speeders to help with revenue.

    For those who drive according to the posted laws, nothing will change. For those who drive anyway they want, smile and wait for the flash. For those who ignore your photo radar ticket, don't complain later when things get worse for you.

    The laws are there to govern us because speeders cannot be trusted to do it ourselves. Speeders have no one to blame but themselves.

    Blaming the guvmint for sending you a speeding ticket is like blaming someone else for anything YOU YOURSELF have done - immature and an indicator of lack of character.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,545
    "commented on by a local that they appreciate the slower-moving traffic and the reduced number of speed demons on the roads. "

    Probably a Buick driving retiree, or an self-righteous hybrid pseudo-motorist....
  • euphoniumeuphonium Member Posts: 3,425
    My opiinion is that initimidator will not be able to go faster than I am, and I will usually not move over for this situation.

    And why should you? I agree with your opinion.

    Have you noticed the proponents of driving too fast use all kinds of non applicable reasons for you to get out of their way? They resent you playing "speed cop", expect you to "get out of their way". They imply it is discourteous to prevent them from breaking the speed limit law. They mention "lane discipline" while ignoring "speed discipline".

    Well, their attitude gives me courage to stay at the speed limit in the Left, fast, lane.

    If you don't do your duty by blocking the speeder and he crashes down the road and kills himself, you have aided and abetted his reckless driving by contributing to his selfish and reckless driving style.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,545
    "If you don't do your duty by blocking the speeder"

    I'll do my duty by calling in the LLC as a suspected drunk driver ;) ...luckily most 90s Ford products don't have an exceptional amount of passing power, so there's only so much "blocking" they can do. Have fun talking to the cop who nabs your piece of vehicular cholesterol.

    If Americans blindly followed all laws simply because they are laws, the United States would have never been born.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    Intimidators lack self control and are in need of more than lane discipline. Would be great if some new invention/technology photo or whatever would document and send ticket/fine to all intimidators. This could be mounted on all overpasses and on all tall light standards and without signs warning of same.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    There were no Americans (US citizens) before the US was born.

    Age-old procedure: if one does not like a law, work to get it changed or repealed.
  • euphoniumeuphonium Member Posts: 3,425
    "I'll do my duty by calling in the SPEED DEMON as a suspected drunk driver.

    Works both ways, eh?
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,062
    I'll do my duty by calling in the LLC as a suspected drunk driver

    LOL, I actually did that once, on my way to PA. For the most part, the speed limit on I-83 is 65 mph up north of Baltimore. Well, this guy decided he wanted to roll around 55-60, in the fast lane. He'd pick some slow-moving vehicle like a big truck, RV, or bus in the slow lane, and pace it. People started getting miffed and passing on the shoulder and such. And drivers were starting to pack in tighter and tighter as they got frustrated, closing the gaps between the cars, and making it harder for drivers to merge in at the entrance ramps.

    There were several near-misses as people tried to get around this guy. As soon as whatever slow-moving vehicle he was pacing turned off, he'd punch it, speed up, and find some other slowpoke to pace. He also swerved a little too close to a tractor trailer.

    At that point, I called 911 and reported him. Scary thing was, the cop on the other end said "Is it a gray Cavalier?" Yep! Evidently, I wasn't the only one who had called in! Unfortunately, this idiot was able to get away with it for about 40 miles, and I doubt if he ever got caught. My exit came up, and just beyond, I-83 did a split, where you went East towards Harrisburg or West towards Carlisle.

    There have also been a couple cases where someone in a private car would cut me off. I'd honk the horn at them, and they'd flash a badge at me. At that point, I called the cops and reported a reckless driver impersonating a police officer. :shades:
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,545
    I'll have a few of my friends do it too...multiple complaints

    "We've got a distinguished looking older gentleman in a blue 90s Town Car on I5 in the left lane going 59 mph and pacing cars to his right...we don't want him to fall victim to some thug's piece, better pull him over and see if he's coherent" :P
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,545
    That's the dangerous situation the self-titled traffic deputy creates, every bit as dangerous as someone going 30mph above the flow of traffic, as it creates chaos behind the slowpoke that he simply can't fathom. It's a shame someone didn't brake check him into a ditch or shoot out a tire.

    Should speed cameras also get people going too slow for traffic conditions? Or maybe have a broken society like England where CCTVs are everywhere, and someone could simply watch cameras 24/7 and mail tickets both to the speedsters and the slowpokes. Interesting....
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,545
    The old patriots considered themselves Americans before 1776 or 1787...

    Massive amounts of civil disobedience, or less than civil disobedience, can also have an effect...that is, if the coward neocons like Paulson don't get their martial law dreams...

    With laws made by sucks who are appointed by irresponsible fools who are appointed by cronies who are appointed by a committee who is chosen by someone who is allowed to be elected, it isn't an efficient process.
  • dtownfbdtownfb Member Posts: 2,918
    You just described my old commute from York to Towson. Riding the left lane is very common on I-83.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    Speed limit laws are handled fairly well in the county I live in. In all the years here, they have been adjusted when conditions warannted. There are still some that are too high on roads running in the big commercial/business areas of the county.

    Heard that WASH state has some weird politicians, maybe not as infamous as Illinois and its Crook County though. Didn't the Dems steal a Gov or Senate election within last 8 years in WASH?

    Politicians, highway dept and our county dept people are very level headed and in stark contrast to Crook County where I lived many years ago.

    Don't expect photo radar in any of nearby towns though. Police do a good job of enforcing mostly 30 mph limits, schools 20. I think mostly non-local drivers get nabbed for speeding and maybe younger drivers who have not yet learned to not exceed the limit. Locals know to tow the line and more importantly usually take it easy in town.
  • andys120andys120 Member Posts: 23,674
    There is no such thing as a Fast Lane. The leftmost lane on a multilane highway is legally designated as the Passing Lane and is to be used for that purpose only except in cases of high traffic volume..

    2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,545
    Speed enforcement in my area is usually built around cherry picking. Other than school zones, there is little rhyme or reason to enforcement and many of the speeds themselves. It's not entirely bad to tax the inattentive, but these laws must be built around the most hazardous roads, not the easiest places for well paid tax men to issue citations. But hey, no traffic cameras in my suburb, yet. I've been waiting for them to put one up at the light I have to run every now and then in the early morning, due to negligent programming by my fair city. Then maybe I can put together a class action suit against the city for all the time and gas wasted at their ignorantly managed lights.

    If you knew how hopeless both gubernatorial choices were in WA, you wouldn't parrot things heard on Rush. Nothing was stolen, but the victim mentality neocon right around here are pretty bitter about their man, a puppet of property developers, inheritance elite "businessmen", and religious fanatics being beaten twice by a wicked witch, yes. No matter who you choose, you lose. But that's beside the point... None of them have any ability to deal with traffic issues.

    Around here you can zip around like a madman on city streets and probably have less of a chance of being fined than cruising at 10 over on a wide open dry empty suburban road. The moderately busy road in front of my place is posted at 30mph...every now and then racers will fly up and down my hill at an easy 80+. I've lived here almost 4 years and have seen a cop speed trapping exactly twice. There's a road I know of a couple miles a way, wide open and underposted at 35mph, where many like to go 45-50, and it is perfectly safe. There is almost always a revenue enforcer hanging around in a certain spot.
  • vinnynyvinnyny Member Posts: 764
    "f you knew how hopeless both gubernatorial choices were in WA, you wouldn't parrot things heard on Rush. Nothing was stolen..."

    Enough with the lefty revisionist history. Rossi and Gregoire are both stooges, but that doesn't give King County lefties the right to stuff ballot boxes with votes from dead people, convicted felons, and provisional ballots that were never verified. FACT: More ballots were counted in heavily-democrat King County than actually voted on election day. In spite of their efforts, Rossi won the real ballot count, followed by the machine recount. It took King County election officials "finding" ballots they hadn't previously counted before they got over the top by 133 votes. Even the democrat judge who ruled against Rossi admonished KC election officials. He called them "incompetent", but most honest people would call them "thieves". We're seeing the same thing in the Minnesota election. It's time for the federal government to take over all federal elections and states to take over state-wide elections. If King and Cook County want to keep electing political criminals to local offices, I don't care. But governorships and senate seats are too important. We don't even have to mention Presidential elections--there should never be any doubt that an election has been fair.

    Back to photo radar: the same people who complain about others not obeying speed limits fail to acknowledge that impeding the flow of traffic is illegal as well.

    As for the self-appointed speed enforcers: please don't whine when one of those overly-aggressive drivers road rages you into a ditch (or worse). If you want to help public servants do THEIR jobs and fight crime at the same time, try picking up some trash from the streets. You will be doing something you can brag to the other Prius drivers about and actually do the country some good at the same time.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,545
    It's a liberal conspiracy! Enough with the copied and pasted victim mentality Faux News inspired claptrap...I suppose the en masse discarding of the legal challenges was a conspiracy too. Not that it matters, the public loses no matter who is in office...a shady fundie crony capitalist or a tax and spend stereotype. Governors and senators matter little in the long run, other forces control the nation.

    But hey, someone of that ilk who isn't addicted to random speed limits, selective and asinine law enforcement, and adherence to any law simply because it exists. Refreshing :P
  • vinnynyvinnyny Member Posts: 764
    Wow. Do you hear black helicopters circling overhead when you close your eyes? ;)

    Blind obedience to the law is just stupid--I'm glad all those tea drinkers in Boston weren't afraid to break a few idiotic rules.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,545
    I don't support right or left conspiracies...both sides are crap. ;) :sick:

    Supporting laws simply because they exist is what the wannabe authoritarians always fall back on when their desires aren't able to be defended. We all know that doesn't produce progress or justice. 235 years ago, some men understood this.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    More nonsense. Maybe some folks should just find and buy an island somewhere in the Pacific where they can then make their own rules. Is WASH really screwed up with bad laws? If so, get the aclu to help out or move to common sense, rock solid areas in the midwest.

    Maybe Obama and Democrat stimulus plan for infrastructure can fund needed photo radar in WASH. But wait, maybe the next huge volcano some are predicting in WASH will make all matters there moot.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,545
    Nonsense yourself...other than in high risk areas such as school zones or perpetual accident areas, there is no such thing as "needed photo radar" at all - and an actual LEO is still superior there. WA isn't screwed up with bad laws, the western world is screwed up with bad laws. The UK, with easily the most speed cameras of anywhere, is a disaster in the making. Don't follow down their path. Those who make these rules lack the valid knowledge and credentials to do so, and their supporters do likewise.

    For all the problems of this area, I'd still take it over the smarminess of some in "rural" Illinois, and the entitlement minded neocon loving over-leveraged shoddily built face brick mcmansion attitude that calls it home.
  • vinnynyvinnyny Member Posts: 764
    Yup, you're right. All the non-lemmings should move somewhere else. But once we all leave, who will run the country for you? Big brother? Have fun in your Orwellian wonderland!

    "Common sense, rock solid areas in the midwest"? Isn't Illinois, the most screwed up politically of all the states, still in the midwest? Isn't that where Blogo, Jesse Jackson (x2) and the "Rahminator" hail from? Please!

    You should try getting on one of those newfangled things they call an "airplane" sometime and visit something beyond the corn fields (oops, I forgot that they're now called "gold mines" since those rock solid midwesterners sold the morons in DC on the ethanol scam). There's a world out there where people sometimes jaywalk and drive a little fast. A world where we still realize that politicians work FOR US and that laws should be written "by the people for the people".
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    Yes, Illinois is hurting politically, but hurt caused by politicians from Chicago/Crook County. The messiah from Chicago worked vigorously on Blago 2002 Gov campaign and supported Blago in 2006. That is the "wisdom" of the messiah. Daley machine put in huge effort to get Emanuel elected in the Blago vacated US Rep Distict. Daley selected stooge Crook County President Todd Stroger who then implemented 10 percent sales tax, highest in nation.

    Other persons of ill-repute also from Chicago-Crook are Rezko, priest Pflaeger, minister Wright, terrorist Ayers. One of the messiah's godfathers, Rush, was a terrorist who helped lead 68 Chicago Dem Convention riots. Illinois is a fine state if political part of Crook County were not considered.

    On photo radar, more red-light camera being put in at busy intersections in business/commercial areas in my county. Recent newspaper article pointed out reduction in accidents at those intersections. Drivers inattentive or immature who get caught running red lights deserve heavy fines.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    Only 9 adjectives for attitude?

    Does WASH have folks not qualified with "valid knowledge" and "credentials" putting in photo radar? How would a citizen determine if highway dept personnel are qualified or not? The places in my area that I have seen signs stating coverage by photo radar for red lights all made sense to me.

    Anyone getting a ticket for a red light or speeding offense when signs are posted should not only get an appropriate fine, but maybe should be required to take an iq test to determine level of stupidity. Should driver's license require a minimum level of iq?
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,545
    Nope, the people in charge of photo enforcement are as clueless as can be, no matter their locale - as it is always about revenue generation with a self-righteous lie made about safety. The haphazard way traffic controls are created and maintained here speaks volumes for those who do the management.

    Voters should also face IQ hurdles, then...I believe it takes more mental capacity to drive competently at a decent speed than to slowly blunder around at an artificially low speed as one blindly defers to pointless laws made by thieves and criminals.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    Maybe clueless in WASH, like sleepless in Seattle. I suppose that Seattle so prominent for coffee drinking because folks in that climate always drowsy.

    Disagree that it is "always" about revenue in what I observe. Traffic controls I see are generally ok. Speed limit adjustment around here makes sense, sometimes takes too long after citizen protest to get some lowered. Do not ever recall any local newspaper articles where citizens asking for higher speed limits. It is always about getting them lowered.

    Photo radar signs I have seen as well as aircraft traffic control signs are prominent and fair.

    Is definition of "decent speed" one that is higher than posted? Greater mental capacity to be able to go faster competently than posted limits? Seems that the need to exceed speed limits is immature and adolescent.

    Would agree on IQ level threshhold to vote. If we had same, then messiah would never have been a senator let alone pres.

    Don't see that "thieves and criminals" make traffic laws. Don't know to what extent politicians such as Blago, state sen messiah, etc., passed any traffic laws. Would guess that Illinois House and Senate upped 55 to 65 mph for overall state many years ago. Would hope that our State passes overall state ban on driver cell phone use. But, believe that day-to-day changes in traffic laws, speed limits, traffic signs and conrols are handled by state, county and township dots.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,545
    I'd say people are no more clueless here than elsewhere, including your neck of the woods. A lot more innovation comes from here than most places.

    Lowering speed limits is usually not progress. Of course the dumbed down masses want lower limits, some here think 55 is more than plenty on open highways. These people lack the insight to have a right to an opinion, IMO. Let the stupid have control, see what it brings you. We are experiencing it now.

    "Seems that the need to exceed speed limits is immature and adolescent"

    Traffic controls such as random speed limit changes, unsequenced lights, bizarre intersections, speed traps based on ease vs problematic roads - these are not "ok".

    It seems the need to adhere to undefendable laws simply because they are laws is mindless and regressive. The US doesn't need more sheeple - if that's possible. Simply because the gubbamint makes a rule doesn't mean it is just - in fact for the past generation or so, the rulemaking capacity can be argued to be as free from credibility as possible.

    If IQ was a measure for voting, there's also no way the Geezer/Dingbat ticket could have attained victory :P

    DOTs as a whole are seldom the most logical and accountable organizations. Let's see them put up private sector levels of budgets and services, and see how long they last.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    "'The video evidence the CPS sent me was just appalling. They are just picking on innocent motorists. It makes you wonder how many people say, "Fine, give me the points", when they are not guilty."

    Motorist beats 98mph speeding charge (Daily Mail).
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Obviously that system is inferior to the ones we have in Phoenix.

    Here, there is a camera in front with radar which takes the front picture, and signals a camera behind to take an almost-simultaneous picture, so the driver and the license plate pic are captured at the same instant, leaving zero opportunities for mistakes like this. The software pairs these two images together.

    You will not get sent a ticket if another car is blocking either the license plate shot or your face shot when the snaps are taken, which sometimes does happen.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    A more accurate method perhaps then photo radar is the "Open Road Tolling" on Illinois Tollway system. With this system, you register with the Tollway, then get a transponder with $ deposit and minimum opening $ amount for account. Transponder mounts in upper inside windshield. Tolls are subtracted from your account when you pass beneath sensors suspended overhead at toll stations. You can set up a logon/password with Tollway web site to view particulars of your account. Details show toll station location, date, precise time.

    It would be simple software program to compute average speed travelled between toll stations and determine if speed limit was exceeded and then levy appropriate fines. Am surprised that previous Illinois Gov, now in jail, and present Gov Blago, headed for jail perhaps, have not tapped into this huge revenue stream.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Let's just do away with photo radar systems and human-based speed enforcement and do this :

    1. Put GPS "black box" in every new car sold.
    2. Track where the car goes, and the roads, and the speed limits on each stretch of road.
    3. When the system determines the driver is at any time driving 11+ MPH over the limit, issue a ticket right then.

    This way, we could track people's speed WHEREVER they went and keep them in line at all times.

    I'd vote for this, even if it added $500 to the cost of a new car.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    That's good. Oregon State is thinking of requiring GPS installed in every new vehicle for assessing taxes for miles travelled. Extend that technology a little to also track speed. 11+ miles leeway is plenty generous. Initially could set this up for interstates, then extend later to suburbs, city streets.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,545
    And make the politicos defend and prove their traffic control devices and regulations, and if they don't, there can be a gallows waiting for them.

    It boggles the mind that those who claim to oppose big government embrace a scheme where the least competent people in society (government policymakers) have a perpetual surveillance grid over everything.
  • oldfarmer50oldfarmer50 Member Posts: 24,306
    "...Keep them in line at all times..."

    Lordy, you are scaring me to death. :surprise: Tell the truth now, you have a little uniform and jack-boots that you march around the house in.

    2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible

  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    What is a good reason (other than an obvious "emergency" situation) for anyone to be driving 11+ miles per hour over the speed limit?
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,545
    For what good reason are American speed limits usually some of the lowest in the developed world?

    If speed is going to be tracked like that, why not just make cars with speed governors that max out at 11mph over the highest posted speed? Why not lower limits to 40-45? And govern police cruisers to that level too, so they can't speed to the local diner or donut shop as they do now, and never face accountability as usual.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    fintail says, "For what good reason are American speed limits usually some of the lowest in the developed world?"

    Because in America, we as the governing people, CARE about other people dying !! Safety of your children and my children, my granny and your granny, is considered important. Some countries and cultures value human life less than we do.

    And if you let people drive as fast as they want to with improper and incomplete driving education (which we DEFINITELY have in this country) the logical result will be excessive accident and death rates (driving health insurance rates up ) and more severe damages to homes and property (driving vehicle insurance rates up).
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,545
    "Because in America, we as the governing people, CARE about other people dying"

    The "people" have little true control...and by your logic, the US would then have lower casualty/death rates than others, but it does not. Countries and cultures in the developed world do not value human life less than "we" do, and if you have some examples to disprove that, I would love to see them.

    Americans and the moral high ground...think about why the world hates you.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    For what good reason are American speed limits usually some of the lowest in the developed world?

    Seems like we've had this discussion before and the upshot was that our speed limits are typical.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    It is Oregon, on the left coast, that is proposing to charge by the mile travelled. Give them the credit or blame.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    It's not taking "moral high ground" to care that people around you might die.

    It's just caring.

    ( C'mon, you're gonna make me teer up, man !! )
  • grbeckgrbeck Member Posts: 2,358
    larsb: There you go again, accusing people who don't think as you do of merely being "gullible and uninformed."

    If you aren't gullible and uniformed, it shouldn't bother you. ;)

    Government press releases and articles in local newspapers tend not to tell the whole story, and are usually slanted to convey a particular point, which may be at odds with reality. Or attempt to credit photo radar with a trend - reduced accidents and fatalities - that is occurring throughout the nation.

    larsb: Can't post a link, but an editorial today in the Tempe Republic news was written by a local who passes through the most-strictly-enforced photo radar areas in Tempe every day.

    He says he "has noticed people driving slower" in the areas where most of the cameras are. He himself makes sure he slows down in those areas.


    So, we've gone from attempting to credit photo radar with a trend - reduced accidents and fatalities - that is occurring throughout the nation, to the experiences of one letter writer.

    larsb: That's the second recent article ( the other one was a freeway driver who drives daily in the photo radar freeway areas ) which was commented on by a local that they appreciate the slower-moving traffic and the reduced number of speed demons on the roads.

    I'd like to know what this writer considers to be a speed demon...I hate to break it to him or her, but not everyone who exceeds the speed limit on a limited access highway is a "speed demon."

    It's called, "driving at a safe speed for conditions, which is usually higher than today's ridiculously underposted speed limits."

    Most of the people who write these sort of articles tend to be the kind who leave the retirement village once a year, and get their undies in a knot when someone passes their Century at 75 mph on the highway...

    larsb: The laws are there to govern us because speeders cannot be trusted to do it ourselves. Speeders have no one to blame but themselves.

    If today's speed limits on limited access highways actually had some relationship to safety, and if slower drivers were actually safer than drivers who exceed the speed limit on limited access highways, you'd have a point. But, since they don't, and they aren't, you don't.

    larsb: Blaming the guvmint for sending you a speeding ticket is like blaming someone else for anything YOU YOURSELF have done - immature and an indicator of lack of character.

    Character is being able to think for yourself, and having enough intelligence and experience to know that what one reads in the newspapers and government press releases should be regarded with a healthy does of skepticism, especially when it involves revenue raising, oops, I mean "traffic safety." ;)
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,545
    It's not only the far left who is supporting such inanity...
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,545
    If you "care", then you would fully support a national 40-45 mph speed limit, right? Think of the lives saved - you have to be really unfortunate to perish at those speeds in a modern car.

    These regulations have nothing to do with caring or with lives or anything else. It's all about the money.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,545
    I don't recall that, sorry.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    fintail says, "then you would fully support a national 40-45 mph speed limit, right?"

    I would do that if it became the law.

    I am a LAW-ABIDING CITIZEN in every phase of life. Including driving. I have kids and need to provide for them a good example of how to be a proper American citizen.

    Speeding "just because I want to get there faster" is not in my repertoire. If I want to get somewhere on time, I merely leave early enough to make it while not speeding.
  • grbeckgrbeck Member Posts: 2,358
    People who support bad ideas tend to span the ideological spectrum...
  • grbeckgrbeck Member Posts: 2,358
    I'd rather be an informed citizen who thinks for himself...
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,545
    So no matter what becomes law, you'll support it. That's really all I needed to know. Thanks.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,545
    Indeed...a good reason why the end results of the desires of those who lead both sides of the spectrum really aren't very different.

    Let's all just blindly defer to government mandated idiocy, aka regressive speed laws. That'll make a great future, we can be "proper Americans".
Sign In or Register to comment.

Your Privacy

By accessing this website, you acknowledge that Edmunds and its third party business partners may use cookies, pixels, and similar technologies to collect information about you and your interactions with the website as described in our Privacy Statement, and you agree that your use of the website is subject to our Visitor Agreement.