Classic? Collectible? Special Interest? Just Old?
Mr_Shiftright
Member Posts: 64,481
in General
The term "Classic" has become a label for so many
different types of cars, that the word is rapidly
losing its meaning.
For this reason, many curators, appraisers,
collectors and writers are trying to creat more
accurate definitions for "old" cars.
What do you think? Should a 1930 Duesenberg and a
1964 Rambler both be called "classics"? Can a
"classic" be only ten years old? If everything is a
classic, then nothing is, right?
Here are some of the more common terms being used
in the world of vintage cars today. What do YOU
think they ought to mean?
Antique
Vintage
Classic
Collectible
Special Interest
Old Car
different types of cars, that the word is rapidly
losing its meaning.
For this reason, many curators, appraisers,
collectors and writers are trying to creat more
accurate definitions for "old" cars.
What do you think? Should a 1930 Duesenberg and a
1964 Rambler both be called "classics"? Can a
"classic" be only ten years old? If everything is a
classic, then nothing is, right?
Here are some of the more common terms being used
in the world of vintage cars today. What do YOU
think they ought to mean?
Antique
Vintage
Classic
Collectible
Special Interest
Old Car
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Comments
vintage = turn of the century old
Classic = old (historic) but popular (mustangs, camaros, etc.)
Collectible = one that has demand like the classics, but not necessarily as popular
Special interest = kit cars, deloreans, woodys, etc.
Old car = one that was just pulled out of the weeds
Also, certain aspects of a given car might be considered 'classic', while others are not.
"Classic" has to be something very special in my mind, a term reserved for the most interesting and inspiring cars.
There was a term used for a while called "Milestone" that I liked...it was for cars that achieved a certain notoriety for certain accomplishments, either technically, or in marketing even, but wasn't in the Duesenberg or Bugatti or Packard V-12 class.
So maybe the first "T-Bird" or "Corvette" could fit into that category, along with say the first BMW 2002, the first Mustang, etc.
I wouldn't call a 1959 Cadillac a "milestone' since it was definitely an evolutionary dead-end. Not exactly the Golden Age...that would be to my mind a "collectible"
"antique" to me means "brass era" type cars...pre electric lighting, pre starter motor...really old buggy-type cars.
"vintage" and "classic" could overlap...a vintage car could really go back to anything pre World War II...so some "classics" are "vintage" but not all "vintage" are classics.
Anyway, the point of my rambling is that you can't lump a magnificent V-16 phaeton with a Datsun B210 and call them the same thing..that's just stretching it too far for me!
"collectible" is also pretty wide-open, in that I guess if just one person collects Hillman Minx 4-door sedans then it is "collectible"...but I'd like to think the term meant that there is actually some demand country-wide, and a club and a registry, etc...something more than a pile of rubble in someone's back yard.
I like the term "milestone" because the word implies some kind of breakthrough or special feature that took hold and others copied...certainly the Mustang was a Milestone car, and the 49 Olds one of the first short-stroke, hi compression V-8s, which later dominated the 60s in America. But a 1949 Kaiser isn't a milestone, maybe just special interest. So there's the difference (the Kaiser was supposed to be radical but by the time it got to production, it was just another old design with a new skin).
I think the older Austin Mini Coopers are very interesting cars...not "classic" but certainly collectible...is it an "S" model? If so, it would be pretty valuable, and a total kick to drive! But if just a Cooper, a nice one (really nice one)would run you about $6,500 in the U.S.
If not a Cooper, but just a plain old Mini, one of the more modern Minis (850 cc I think), I don't feel that car is collectible, but still might be fun to have. I wouldn't pay much for it, though, with a whopping 37 hp!
You might want to have the car checked out...they can be a bit fragile, especially clutches and transmissions.
Classic (adjective): serving as a standard of excellence: of recognized value. Synonyms- traditional, enduring, authentic, authoritative.
Classic (noun): a work of enduring excellence: a typical or perfect example.
Antique (adjective): existing since or belonging to earlier times: made in or representative of the work of an earlier period. Synonym- ancient
Antique (noun): a relic or object of ancient times: a manufactured product (as an automobile) from an earlier period.
Vintage (adjective): of old, recognized, and enduring interest, importance, or quality: dating from the past. Synonym- classic.
Vintage (noun (without mentioning grapes)): a period of origin or manufacture. Synonym- age.
These are just the definitions that can apply to cars. I see now why there is so much confusion. It seems to be a matter of interpretation and perception. I believe that it is possible to identify a classic before it becomes an antique. For example, new Dodge RAM trucks. By definition, a Model 'T' Ford could be classic, antique, or vintage, but I think of it as an antique because it wouldn't appeal to me. A Model 'T' collector, however, would probably consider it vintage because of his special interest.
Where does this end?
good condition. I didn't know whether to look as
antique, classic, vintage, or just plain "junk".
From the definitions, vintage appears to be the
only category that fits. read each definition with
the vehicle in mind and it's pretty clear. thanks!
antique. Wishful thinking...does point out the fact that the definitions need to be understood
when discussing vehicles for collecting or of
interest.
The Model T would qualify as antique, at least if grouped with "car"...relative to the history of cars it's an antique...but since cars are 106 years old, I personally can't see how one 35 years old, only 1/3 the lifespan of cars, could be antique or vintage...
Also, I don't think anything mass-produced will ever be a true classic...I mean, people will be fond of them, certainly, but to hold them up as standards of excellence for all time? do you really think "classic" when you hear "Classic Coke"? The word gets watered down if one applies it to everyday objects, I think. That's why "collector" and "collectible" are such handy terms.
And back then, Cadillac was a very high quality car.
I think also that they put cars on the list not only for rarity but for the regard people attached to them. Cadillac had respect back then, and dominated the American car luxury market for many years.
So between the numbers produced and its status as a commercial vehicle, it's not likely any truck will make the classics list....but then, you never know, time is the real judge of what is revered and lovingly restored, not some bunch of guys in an office making lists. In a way, their job was easy, just to look at the past.
If we could think of a "classic" as a car that a) captured the imagination of the buying public on the day it was first introduced, and b)has stood the test of time and entered into American mythology, we'd have to include the '55-57 T-Bird, the '53-62 Corvette, the 55-57 Chevrolet (convertibles and hardtops and nomads)...these were the first modern and exciting American cars of the postwar era, and today you see them on everything from refrigerator magnets to t-shiirts.
After that, they seem to get uglier and too new for "classic status" (with notable exceptions perhaps). Can a muscle car be a classic already?
You often say that a given model "has little or no value to a collector" or words to that effect. That's the only kind of collectible I'd be interested in.
One that's already appreciated some, and that the whole world is expecting to appreciate more, is not where I'd put my money (let's pretend that I have money). I'd gamble it on cars that relatively few people want right now.
I used to want to buy cars that I thought would appreciate financially but they all went and appreciated. Some of the classic cars I used to dream about have appreciated almost a thousand percent. You've observed this too, no doubt.
So buying low and selling high is no longer possible, but buying low and having a blast is still feasible.
Of course if you bought it to make money on it, then you'd be stuck, like me with this piece of real estate. It'll never appreciate. I figure there best thing I can do is put in a go kart track - at least drown out the neighbors' dogs and car subwoofers.
A lot of the cars I like have little enough market value already, and I'd go and destroy what little they have by dropping a different engine or something in it, like a Miata drivetrain into a Midget. Who'd ever want that, besides the guy that did it? But he'd have fun.
I've done a few weirdo engine swaps, and its a lot of work but can be fun. Usually, you don't end up with the car you thought you'd get, but really, doing it is the whole point and not the result so much....now the question is---will a Mazda Rotary turbo engine actually fit in a Nash Metropolitan? And then, how do I stop the damn thing?
Which, seriously, brings up a related issue. Sometimes when you defy or ignore conventional wisdom in a particularly outrageous way, you might actually start a fad, trend, style, whatever you wanna call it. Obviously, much more often you just spend a lot of money.
The first guy who attempted to hot rod a Beetle, for example, must have been at best a curiosity among his hot rod cohorts; at worst a maniac, to be attempting to introduce power and handling to a machine that is incapable of ever taking advantage of the components. But in 1999, decades after the cessation of production of the German car (I don't know if they're still being made in Mexico but they're not imported), if you pick up a copy of Hot VWs, you see ads by companies that have been mining that vein for 30 yrs. There must be a fairly large base of support for it still.
Not that that first guy ever made a dime, but years later it's apparent that there was money there. What reasonable person would have guessed it?.
Also, while VWs do indeed have a need for power, they also have a great need for 'chassis' in order to utilize the power. Basically, they have a need for a complete redesign. Oddly enough, there's an aftermarket industry that completely redesigns them, while a lot of other models whose original versions came a lot closer to the mark have been ignored.
It seems that some people have such an emotional connection to the Beetle, they're willing to do whatever it takes to turn it into something like a real car.
You see so little of the 70's cars available any more I suspect a large portion of them have been junked already.
I certainly wouldn't pay much for either one or put much into them, unless it is strictly for pleasure and you don't expect any return. I sold a Hillman Minx convertible a few years ago--took ages to sell and could barely get $1,500 for it. Pretty dreadful car, I thought, but it was cute and odd and people liked the looks of it.
Nick
much NOS & lots used as good as new stuff
Can anyone help me with any pricing information regarding a 1968 Cord Convt. 90 k orginal miles, perfect body, runs and looks awsome two tone paint White/Blue fenders. 302 Ford block, Trans, Rear end. If you can help me with information regarding Cord Autos please e-mail me at drcav@rocketmail.com
Good one.
'68 Cord. That's great.
Ford running gear.
But seriously,...
what can I say? A fake is a fake, so you have to keep that in mind when you buy it. Also, safety is a factor (who designed it? who put it together?) and chances of apprciating value are not very good.
With a kit car, it's really a very subjective thing. If you enjoy it, well, okay, nothing wrong with that, but keep a sober head about what you have there...as the song goes..."there's nothing like the real thing, baby"..
The examples I think of as contemporary are often slightly impractical or of a specialized design. Hard to think of a Ford Galaxie as a CLASSIC until you make a convertible and add a big block. Mustangs are often thought of as "belly-button cars" because everybody has one, but make it a Shelby and now it is not only classic but collectible.
Fun topic but I would like to see other peoples lists. Personally I like the BMW 3.0CSI as a Classic European pre-smog coupe
Just ballpark, $25,000, but again, that may not relate to your car at all.
Since, as you know, my knowledge is confined to Packards, Franklins and Triumphs (oh my) I'm curious of ballpark values for two cars and engines/trannies that my father-in-law just mentioned he had in storage. The first car is a 1965 Impala SS Convertible with an automatic and "midnight orchid" paint. Assume it's average for a 65 condition. The other car is a 66 Caprice. He also has a "numbers matching" big block (427) that he was going to throw in the Caprice before he ran out of time to restore cars in the 70's. He also has 409 and 396 engines, both with "numbers matching trannies." I assume these were the engines for his Impalas.
I know the Impala is reasonably valuable, but are the Caprice and the engines worth enough to get excited?
No, in my opinion this car has no collectible car value and never will, so it's best for you to treat it as you might a good used car and hope for the best.
Rust is a killer on a Mercedes, since this type of car looks truly awful with such blemishes, however, if it runs decently it still has some value as what it was built to be...comfortable transportation.
Most cars are valued by society more on how they look, unfortunately, not how they run, so depending on your car's appearance you could figure a value of between $3,000-$5,000 dollars.
As for marketing the car, having receipts in hand for rebuilds is a good sales tool, even though it doesn't boost value very much. Cleaning the car meticulously is worth the trouble, even if it costs $200 to have it detailed inside and out.
Best bet for selling would be a) major metro newspaper and b) the Autotrader magazine, available at 7-11s and such.
Good luck with it!
If it's a 4-door sedan or 4-door hardtop, as I suspect, you should be careful how much money you spend to fix it up, since the ultimate value is not very great, perhaps $3,500-$5,000. These days, that's the cost of a really good paint job.
So if the car is driveable as is, I'd tend to leave it like that and just enjoy it, perhaps fixing those things that relate to safety and reliability. On the odd chance it's a Newport convertible, you're looking at a top, near-show car value of $12,000, which means it still isn't worth restoring to show condition, but that it will, in time, be worth doing something like that---early 60s convertibles will climb in value, but 4-doors will remain pretty stagnant, perhaps creeping up $100 a year or so, along with inflation.
As for workshop manuals, you might check Hemmings.com (Hemmings Motor News) and get a copy of that magazine. I feel certain that the book you need is out there, and it's just a matter of few phone calls and e-mails and perhaps a $50-75 check to someone who likes these cars as much as you do.
1966 Ford Mustang coupe. One owner vehicle with
125 thou miles on it.....Runs great.....powder
blue with Landau top.. Can someone direct me
to who I need to contact or what web page etc
to get approx value etc in order to sell....It
would be greatly appreciated....
>
Then, once you have the condition (you can add a plus or minus to the condition if it falls in between two numbers), list all the options, type of engine, trans, etc, whether paint is original and what modifications have been made (wheels, steering wheel, upholstery, paint color, are commmon mods).
With this info, we should be able to give you a good ballpark estimate that will be close to actual market value.
Host
or a book tittle that shows how to rate a classic car. What it's value should be depending on condition? I am interested in buying a 1971 Chevy Malibu SS convertabile.
Thanks Gary
E-mail Gaspareb@ibm.net