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Comments
That is not true for me at all. I would love to have a PU that gets 45 MPG. The State of CA has virtually blocked that type vehicle from being sold here. I can now get an SUV that will get 30 MPG if I want to spend $60k and lose a bunch on my current 15 MPG SUV. It is not the consumer that has kept out high mileage vehicles. It is the Feds and CARB. The impasse is between the consumer and the regulators. Adding more tax will not make it easier to use less.
http://www.api.org/statistics/fueltaxes/upload/January_2009_gasoline_and_diesel_- summary_pages.pdf
That is even creepier than the photo radar. Hi government, can you do me a favor and track my whereabouts and comings and goings. Maybe charge me more if I used roads during peak periods (adding to congestion) and also if I am in a bad part of town late at night you can charge more because of the necessary police presence, and track what vehicles are close to eachother...
Yeah, no thanks.
That makes Oregon even more weird then California. No wonder everyone in CA and WA pick on them.
Maybe Oregon can go in with Progressive and not only will you pay your gas tax by the mile, but you can pay your insurance by the mile too (with a hefty surcharge for repeated speeding).
You should be sure to tell Larsb about that part.
Can I just have them track my whereabouts at all times and if I am not in my assigned region it can have the police from sector B come and try to kill me with laser beams? That'd be hawt.
Pay As You Drive
I only drive my Outback about 5,000 miles a year, so the idea does have some appeal. But it's not available here. But they do offer it next door in Oregon. The gizmo hooks up to your OBDII connector and transmits speed, time of day and number of miles the car is driven. There's no GPS tracking.
PS
My Farmers gives my a big discount for driving less than 7000 miles per year.
On the other hand, I am fine with flight recorder/black boxes in vehicles. I feel like once you screw up and impact someone else's life, then you lose some of your rights to privacy, etc. I think that is also why I am a fan of secondary enforcement for driver distraction related issues.
So yeah, you could take that info and generally figure out where people have been driving, even though Progressive says they don't do that.
WA gas tax is high to subsidize their magnificent ferry system. It should be self supporting, but it is not.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
January 5, 2009
PORTLAND, Ore. — For years, Oregon has been diligent about reducing the state's dependence on fossil fuels, but its environmental consciousness has come at a big price—gas tax revenues are down $4.8 million a year compared with 2006.
A state task force will look at equipping every new vehicle in the state with a Global Positioning System tracking device to quietly record every mile driven and where. Motorists would pay at the gas pump based on how much they drove, no matter how fuel-frugal their vehicle.
While Oregon appears to be out in front in looking at a mileage fee, several other states, including Ohio, Pennsylvania, Colorado, Florida, Rhode Island, Minnesota and Texas, have also expressed an interest in phasing out the gas tax in favor of charging motorists for how much they drive.
The Oregon proposal already is running into opposition from some drivers who say it would discriminate against rural residents who may have to drive several miles just to get to the grocery store and raise inevitable privacy concerns with Big Brother keeping a satellite watch over where everyone is driving.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-oregon-gasjan05,0,6018141.sto- ry
Wonder how Oregon citizens/drivers feel about this issue and ramifications of misuse of data to track peoples's movements.
Gas tax, to extent a state wants it, is easiest to run. States already do it, no new technology and extra costs are needed.
So there will never be a situation where they would be lying if they said "no tracking information is being kept" if they can merely explain why it's not.
Besides - who cares if my insurance company knows "where" I drove to? If I'm not doing anything illegal, what harm could come from some clerk at Progressive knowing:
Lars drove 16 miles on Chandler Blvd
then turned left onto Dobson Road
then stopped at 1517 Dobson for two hours.
then drove 14 miles north on Dobson Road
then stopped for 10 minutes at 18715 Dobson Road
Who gives a darn about that information?
Over a number of gas purchases, the State database/software would determine if miles driven and gas purchases are within bounds for MPG ratings of vehicle. If significant mismatch indicating lots of gas purchased, but small amount of miles travelled, then car/vehicle owner will get letter asking to bring vehicle in to some kind of State dot for inspection.
Well if you're in sales, or an executive in business, you've then given your schedule (especially who you visited) to a 3rd party. What's in the law to keep them from selling that information? Also, even if they can't sell the info., do you think Progressive's computer security system is impervious to hacking?
I can see my next vehicle might need to be a kit-car that I build myself.
So they'll be bringing in every landscaping company in Oregon regularly? Or anyone with a snowmobile, boat (most people who tow fillup at stations not marinas), or ATV? It sounds already like it's getting really complicated, and a lot of records need to be kept. The time people would need to divert to answer these questions and the state workers asking them is WASTE.
Also: You really need to consider if you think more and more questioning and rules from government is the way you want to go. Or do you think it's no big deal that the DOT can tell you to come down to their office M-F 8-5 (take time off from work?), wait in line, and bring records with you to prove that you used gasoline legally and did not alter the tracking device on the vehicle? No big deal right? As long as it doesn't conflict with the city inspector coming out to your house to see if you haven't tampered with the temp. limit controls on your HVAC?
Thats' your choice; I don't want anyone making that choice for me. You can put your schedule, credit card numbers and social security number all over the Internet; that's your choice, not mine.
I give info. to the government, insurance and banks only as needed. I applied for automatic deleivery of heating oil last week at a small local dealer, and they asked for a SS#. NO WAY, as they may lay the clerk off next week, who has previously downloaded the database onto a portable drive (doesn't get paid enough, or has a drug addiction and needs $), and 1-2 months later you'll find your identity was sold.
In this day and age your really stupid for giving out any information not absolutely necessary and required. It's not that you're doing something criminal, it's that people can use information to make you a victim of crime.
Simplest method to collect taxes for roads/bridges is present method of paying tax when you buy gas. A supplementary method to get more funds is to tax by vehicle weight. In Illinois, one pays $78/year for license plate tag renewal regardless of vehicle weight. So, a gargantuan 5000+ pound Suburban pays the same as a tiny Honda Fit. The Fit barely touches the pavement while the Suburban pounds away and causes more pavement wear. The more your vehicle weighs, then the more you should pay in yearly license fee. If you can afford a Suburban, then you can afford to pay substantially more in yearly license fee.
Might also come in handy at divorce time. I prefer a simple reading of the odo when you renew your license. Add the charge on at that time. If they plan on charging 1.5 cents per mile that is $225 for the average 15k mile per year driver.
KISS :shades:
But for the more paranoid of you: this technology has been around for years, and I have never heard of any instances of the data getting into the wrong people's hands. Have you?
I've HAVE seen it used for GOOD, like when the cops tracked that dude who murdered his wife and found out where he had dumped the body.
Don't really care if using "Preferred Card" at food store and they are tracking my bread, milk, coffee, vegetable purchases. Obviously, all would agree about some store asking for SS#. Some years ago, when switching to a new cell phone provider, the clerk in an authorized cell phone provider store asked me to fill in my SS on application form. I refused, got up to walk out, the clerk called the owner of store, and owner said that I did not have to provide SS.
Here in land of Blago, Rezko, Daley, the Messiah, Illinois Tollway users can pay cash or open an account and put transponder on windsheild and get one-half the toll rate. Tolls debited to account as you drive through toll stations. Then, you can view your account details at Tollway website. It shows complete details: location of toll station, lane number, date, time of day, amount of toll debited.
Sometimes I wonder if there are not some people at Tollway office or otherwise in the State mulling how they can use this data beyond simple accounting.
It's a series of location tracking information, which when "untied" from the person would be useless.
We at my company could set up an internal database, completely detached from the Internet, which would keep the identity of the person completely separate from the insurance policy number.
The key of the file would be setup where even if a hacker got both databases, they would have a hard time matching up the tracking data to the right person.
And if we decided to keep the person's name and address in a different database from the policy number, NEVER would a hacker be able to put the data together in a usable form.
Keep the files in different file systems with different access permissions.
If a little company like mine has the personnel and system capability to do that, surely the insurance companies also do.
The largest population base lives on the WA border. Just cross over the bridge and fill up. Same goes for WA drivers, many who cross over to Portland because Oregon has no sales tax. Think like a politician and you will come up with a sleazy way to avoid taxes. Just ask Tom Daschle.
Every time I'm asked for a SS#, I give them a nine didgit number I've made up at the time. Who says it has to be accurate? They want a number, they get a number.
How would these gas tax devices work for someone who spreads 21k miles a year across 5 vehicles with an avg age of 12-13 yrs old? How is the tax assessed? per person, per tax return, per houshold? Seems like it would cost the gov't. the first ten years of tax intake just to get me 'hooked up'. Then can I just pull the power wire out and call it a dead battery? The Feds can't even afford the $40 coupon program for DTV.
And whats $140k in back taxes owed? An honest mistake for a guy making 5 million a year.
Hey, you and I agree on something! :-)
This is much the best way. All that other stuff is needlessly complicated.
The next question becomes: since the insurance companies and the DMV are tied together by computer these days, would these odo readings then go back to the insurance companies? If so, and the actual miles driven exceeded your previous estimate, could they raise your rates?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
All that other stuff is needlessly complicated.
All the proposals presented here have loopholes, and are needlessly complex, requiring a lot of bureaucracy.
Here's my tax proposal for the nation, following the KISS principal: use the current colection, set the gas tax = to the amount needed to maintain the roads and bridges, only use the gas tax for roads and bridges (no diversion to the General Fund). And eliminate the waste of administering tolls and the toll-workers nationwide. Eliminate every toll, tollworker, and their overhead nationwide. No more EasyPass transponders, bills, paperwork, no more tolls at the George washington, the Mass Pike ...
Have 1 simple collection at the pumps that payys for every road and bridge.
And if the security camera at your work catches you eating a donut every snack-time, and a Big mac w/fries for lunch, maybe that could be forwarded to the health insurance provider and they'll raise your rates? Or do you think the insurance provider will demand you come in once a year to get weighed?
For anyone who's single and using Match.com or other dating service, maybe we need to forward our dating plans and schedule to the insurance companies for approval, to keep the risk of contracting a disease down. I'm sure someone here would argue that there's nothing wrong with that as it is for the good of the individual and society (keep a person healthy, working, and not having medical bills).
Do you get the idea I'M SICK OF HEARING THESE IDEAS of having to provide information and possibly control of our lives over to some self-inflicted, wasteful bureaucracy! :mad: :mad:
I have been doing road construction for 13 years. I remember one interstate crack sealing job, we sealed all the cracks and the state inspector told us to "make some cracks." In other words, "Waste the rest of your material and the state will pay you for it, if we don't spend all the money that our county was given for maintenance we won't get as much next year."
I was shocked. I couldn't believe they throw money away like that. That was the stupidest thing I had ever heard. But it kinda makes sense from the states point of view, after he explained it to me
The whole tax system is screwed up from the way it is collected to the way it is handed out.
This is probably the best argument I have read so far against raising the gas tax.
Well, the majority of people in that situation are ALREADY on welfare.
And people can adapt, too. Think about what retirees have to do, retirees without a nest egg, of which there are many retiring every year: My mom went from making about $2500 a month down to $806 a month when she retired and went on social security.
She adapted. Fewer frills. Moved into low-cost housing. Cut back on expenses.
I know the term "you can't get blood from a turnip" and some folks will hit that wall at some point.
But you can't, as a guvmint which needs money to survive and to pay it's social obligations, just say, "OK We are broke, America. Deal With It."
You gotta keep the revenue flowing in.
No new taxes, cut spending like everyone else in America is doing, and will continue to do for a long time!!!!
Hopefully your Mom built up a savings &/or investment account during her productive years because the first word of the Social Security Act is Supplemental.
The news is telling us one of the ways they are adapting is by giving 18 Billion in Bonuses. Our increased fuel tax would have to go to help pay that first 350 Billion in bailout that allowed them to pay such bonuses because they were broke and couldn't afford it before. But it is ok because some in here trust that the taxes will go to help people afford a new fuel efficient car.
I guess we learned nothing from 1929.
loses safe driver discount.
If my calculations are correct "only 1%" of 850 billion is approximately only about 85 billion. I think he might be trying to minimize just a little. :sick:
I cannot believe anyone could want to give them more money to waste.
There was a very funny commercial a few years ago where a bunch of midevil men were sitting around a table talking about a giant sloth attacking the village. when the leader asked for suggestions on how to fight it one of the men tossed a large sack of money on the table. Everyone looked at him like he was a fool. It was supposed to be funny but that is just what is being done today. And some want to toss more tax money at the problem?
I guess these suggestions are just depressing at a time when we as a nation have real problems far in excess of who is driving what. People are losing their jobs and their homes and people simply aren't interested in getting a new car. And we would even entertain the idea that we hit someone with a tax to try and get them to buy what they can't afford anyway? When did we turn into a nation that hates our neighbors that much? When did we turn on ourselves?
At least so far we have a chance to vote on most of these things and we can vote against the people that suggest these things.