Jackson came up in here back in January for making similar comments. First post in fact. He's proposed a gradual increase to wean people off gas guzzlers and to make it easier for automakers to plan - he's not happy that the HUMMER sells like gangbusters one year followed by Prius shortages the next I guess.
The article also quoted him as saying "With a combination of fuel-efficient cars and cheap gas, Americans will opt for big vehicles, choose homes located farther from their workplace and drive many more miles.
It would be “an environmental and economic disaster for America,” he said."
All in all, interesting comments from someone making his living selling cars. AutoNation is the biggest chain of car dealers in the US.
Twelve million of stimulus money has been requested by same folks in downtown Cincy wanting to build, build a street car line from the riverfront to the zoo area, about 3 miles. So they will have a huge cost overrun before it's done. They'll use right of way that could be available for cars out of the streets. Their justification is same as the Cleveland, Columbus, Cincinnati roadway with high speed train in that if we build it they will come. No. The only people who might use it would be those commuting twice a day to work in the hospital area AND most of those people DON'T live downtown, they live spread out in suburbs and remote towns.
Twelve million. It all reads just like Pelosi's bill. Spend. Waste. Spend. Waste. And someone wants to give these people more tax money from gasoline just to punish poor folk paying for gasoline?
All in all, interesting comments from someone making his living selling cars. AutoNation is the biggest chain of car dealers in the US.
Yes but we are hearing these things from people that have no plan on how that transition can be financed. And until it has an alternative in place it is going to hit the working class right between the eyes. That is why we don't get to vote CEOs into or out of office.
You can't blame the consumer for buying what they want if what they need isn't available. There were those that suggested we would have been better off if we never had cars but it has also been pointed out that our cities would have ended up three feet deep in road apples if we were still using horses.
We have a lot of non elected experts telling us that all we need to do is hold our breath and click our heels together and the problem is solved. High fuel prices haven't solved the problems in Europe have they? The economy is still hitting the skids there. And think about it, most of europe has a public transportation system already. People can't sell there houses and move into the cities because at least on the West coast the jobs aren't in the big cities. They are out in the urban sprawl.
So any suggestion that taxing the consumer at this time will benefit America in Myopic at least. Because it will cut back on the limited income people already have. It will contribute to falling prices of houses and increase the pressure on banks and the stock market. The butterfly effect may only be a theory but in this case it does show cause and effect. If you want to tax fuel tax fuel when people can afford to pay the tax. Otherwise once they kill the goose forget about any eggs in the future.
Heh, the economy seems to be on the skids everywhere so I'm not sure that you can hang high fuel prices on Europe as a sole reason for their problems. The quality of life in the old world EU countries seems pretty high still.
The other tactic to get people out of gas guzzling SUVs and trucks seems to be working. I'm not sure that wiping the D3 out of business is such a good way to do that though.
What ever the reason for the problems even they aren't talking about taxing themselves out of their problems. And some of them are a bit more socialist than we are. The President was on TV just the other night and he said this was no time to increase taxes and he promised if elected to decrease the taxes of 95 percent of Americans. The Prime Minister of the Brits was on BBC and said it was no time to increase taxes.
Yet there are a few that act as if it is business as usual and that something like a $4.00 fuel tax will not be a problem. I don't know where you live but I do know that many people in the north east use hundreds of gallons of heating oil just to survive. Can you imagine the difference in their heating bill if the price of fuel increases by $4.00? I have talked to some that say their winter heating bill is over $2500.00. I don't know how true that might be because I don't live where we use heating oil. But you add $4.00 tax on that fuel and then put the state income tax on top of that and those same heating bills hit $5000.00 easy. Soon those people can decide of they want to stay warm or eat but not both. But then we would be more like Europe as far as personal income goes. :P
I lived under socialism for twenty years and it wasn't so bad. The State of Alaska has a share the collective wealth system that helps keep their economy running (the Permanent Dividend). Getting a $500 to $1000 check every fall was nice perk of living up there.
Can you imagine the rush to find cheaper alternates to oil if there was a $4 gas tax? $3 a gallon gas certainly helped push hybrid car tech.
The quality of life in the old world EU countries seems pretty high still.
They are also allowed to buy high mileage diesel cars, SUVs and small PU trucks to save on fossil fuel. Something that is virtually blocked in this country. Tariffs and crazy regulations have kept US driving 16 MPG trucks, mini-vans and SUVs.
You are right that $4 gas tax would be the death knell for at least two of the D3. And why would the CEO of any big corporation care if gas was $9 per gallon? They write it all off for their Maybachs and Rolls Royces.
"...cities would have ended up three feet deep in road apples if we were still using horses..."
You only need to read a little history to learn the horrible conditions which existed in cities before the auto replaced horses. Filthy, disease ridden streets that smelled so bad in the summer that those who could afford it would flee to "country homes". The poor people could only hope to get jobs shoveling the waste and try not to come down with typhoid..
But to some folks, this is "natural".
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
While relaxing with my Sunday morning paper and bagel this morning I almost gagged when I read this story.
"...Despite opposition from the White House, a proposal to tax motorists on the number of miles they drive each year is gathering speed on Capital Hill. Pep. James Oberstar D-Minn. rushed to it's defense, saying "Weather they want it or not, they are going to get it". Sen. Barbara Boxer called the milage idea a brilliant idea..."
Where are we living, Russia? Even if we don't want it and the president opposes it, these clowns are going to force it on us? I think I'll move to Cuba where at least they make no pretense of democracy. :mad:
Another thing that makes me crazy is the need for a GPS system in every car to track you. Why not just read the odometer each year and tax accordingly? :confuse:
I think there is more behind this than gas taxes. :sick:
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
You only need to read a little history to learn the horrible conditions which existed in cities before the auto replaced horses.
I am reading Crabgrass Frontier that covers that subject in minute detail. By the late 1700s the middle class were moving further out of the cities to avoid all the things that were bad with the cities. Much of that exists today in major cities. Crime, smell and noise. None of which I could live with. The only thing that held the people back was transportation. The steam ferries solved the problem for NYC and 100,000 people per day were crossing the river by ferry each day in 1830. Talking to some of the jurors that took the trolley when going downtown, it was because of the lack of parking near the Courthouse. It makes a 20 minute drive a two hour bus and trolley ride for those in the outer suburbs.
So here is the question. We add $4 Federal fuel tax. How does that impact the buses that are still diesel? It costs $500 per year now for our children to ride the bus to school. Those buses are all diesel. That is why there is a line of SUV and mini-vans half a mile long going into most CA schools.
If you're talking about my school bus my school district has several banks of pumps. They are exempt from most taxes when they buy their fuel (don't know about federal tax). I do remember seeing something on the bulletin board asking drivers to not drive too fast because the school was paying $.87 per gallon for diesel. IIRC, diesel was going for about $1.40 per gallon at that time.
Our district provides free bus service for all kids but there are still hundreds of SUVs and cars blocking the entrance to all our buildings every morning. Some parents feel that their children are just too good to ride with "those" people. :confuse:
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
Or the parents might be voting against management being 10 percent of the work force and getting 25 percent of the funding. Perhaps they aren't willing to reward a district with falling student test scores?
The real point is an increase in fuel tax will increase the cost of transportation period. It will increase the cost of food housing and medical care. There are no exemptions that cover trucking, Air Transportation or Shipping. And the tax will not help build the funds necessary for the working class to purchase new vehicles. And in case someone wants to mention hybrids as benefiting from high fuel prices. When the hybrids we see today came out fuel prices were low. In fact the hybrids we got in 2000 were exactly what Toyota and Honda tried to get CARB to agree to more than 30 years ago when it was proposed that we have EVs. And as soon as the hybrids came out the EVs were dropped.
At least here in California we discovered two proven truths. All taxes to promote schools don't go to Schools. This in direct violation of prop 98. All taxes from fuel don't go to road repair.
I have no faith that increased taxing of fuel will do anything but decrease the economy of America. I also have a suspicion that is exactly what the ones that propose it at this time have in mind. Because there is no practical way in will improve the life of the American worker.
Thanks, yeah, the bus fill-ups was what I was interested in.
Boaz, I don't think fuel taxes (and registration fees, etc.) has ever covered all the road building and maintenance costs. Otherwise, there'd be little need for all those earmarks.
Boaz, I don't think fuel taxes (and registration fees, etc.) has ever covered all the road building and maintenance costs. Otherwise, there'd be little need for all those earmarks.
How would they know? If they spend any of the money for anything other than what is was collected for why do we think they would spend any additional tax for roads. Still as I said the Prius and Insight were developed when gas we less than it is today. so high fuel prices had less to do with it that people say.
Lets say you are like me. You have no car payment. You own your own home. You don't live on credit. You save money each month. All things we were told to do by the experts and the government. Add to that you have decreased your fuel useage by 50 to 60 percent over the last year and a half. What incentive would $4.00 tax give me? Support my local business less maybe? Don't visit the dentist as often? Cringe at the increased cost of air fare? This is the reward we get for doing the right thing? Or you can be like our governor. Fly in a lear Jet from home to the office every day. Have a fleet of hummers in the yard or garage. A housing compound only slightly greener than Al Gore, who has a carbon foot print bigger than the business I used ot work at. And they suggest we need more taxes on fuel?
By the way, in many school districts in Southern California school busses are serviced by Laidlaw. They do not get a fuel break and the tax payer will be asked to fund the transportation cost. Laidlaw bills the district for equipment, drivers, and fuel based on a bid. You can look it up. And some of those districts are pretty big, like San Bernardino, number six in the state.
what everyone tries to avoid is just what will this do to the Restaurant worker? what will it do to the student worker? what will it do to the family man who is out looking for work? How will he directly benefit today and in the next two years from paying $4.00 more a gallon? Or is the suggestion that they should stop driving and stay home and collect welfare and unemployment till it runs out? Because I can't believe the suggestion would be to go into more debt and finance a new car? Isn't it exactly that thinking that got us in this mess? Buy a home you can't afford and in the future things will be better? Because so far that seems to be what i am hearing the tax people say.
that picture took me off topic a bit. as an aside I happen to be into American Indian art a bit. Finally I have found a place in the city close by where there is a Native Indian Store. I happened to pass it on the way to a doctors appointment. Collected my wife and over we went. Turns out the place is closing because the owner had his retirement invested in the stock market and he can't afford to keep the store open.
>re we to infer they were lazy by having done that?
They were opportunistic. I agree to turn it around and say cheap gas opened a boulevard to non-US brands in this market. I am not throwing stones against the 3 and I don't consider they were specifically ill-managed.
> Instead they were spent on fuel I am ready to stand corrected if expensive fuel is considered as the cause of the recession. This link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_crisis_of_2007%E2%80%932009 suggested it was another cause and I made this hypothesis mine
From september 2008, gas prices dropped and they reached sub $2 per USG, yet I don't feel the US crisis doing U turn or at least improving somehow.
>We already have a tax-and-spend administration
Looks like this administration is more spend than tax, which should translate in more deficit. Regardless on how the money will be spend or invested, a higher fuel tax looks like mandatory
>In California they even block the coastal bullet train
I understand from you, Eupho and Gary that Environmentalists should be blamed for blocking any alternative.
Although I value the quality of the environment and the idea of sustainable development, I don't consider myself as specifically being an environmentalist. Yet, I suspect the "environmentalists" you mention would rather belong to the Not in My Backyard movement.
For High Speed trains, everybody want a station but nobody wants the railtracks. For nuclear power, that is the same, to a greater scale... Add a few other environmental pressure groups funded by oil companies, and we get a picture of why those projects are so unpopular.
Please clarify; are you saying that the socialism you lived under for 20 years took place in Alaska? Would love to hear more about that. When we reach the point when there are more voters getting a check from the government than there are voters who are paying taxes, the American Dream is dead. I think this quote covers it: "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy; its inherent value is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill I don't think all of the gas taxes paid by drivers are even going to highway repair and construction. Mass transit and the general fund and a host of other "needs" most assuredly claim some of those funds. Gasoline taxes are regressive, meaning they fall disproportionally on lower income people. I don't care one whit what great purpose my tax money is supposedly going to be spent for, I can find a better use for it. Enough is enough.
I think you are right. We were on the brink with folks losing the homes they should have never been given loans for, and the spike in gas prices sent many more into the abyss.
To vchiu: Why not a big tax on Corn producers and users. It is highly polluting and draining our water aquifer? Or a 100% tax on consumer goods from China, India, Vietnam, Malaysia etc etc. As we are causing those countries to pollute at a much higher rate with all the added manufacturing. I am trying to think of anything humans or animals do that does not produce GHG and other pollutants. That goes for the birds that poop on my patio when I feed them.
Oil is just one of many natural resources we use to make our lives better. When it is gone hopefully man will have found an alternative. If not, the human race may just DIE.
Please clarify; are you saying that the socialism you lived under for 20 years took place in Alaska?
From the time Alaska was settled there have been schemes to keep people there. Lower taxes was one of them. The permanent fund was another. When you look at Alaska it is a State that has 8 months of winter and 4 months of bad weather. Without some incentive many of the working class would move elsewhere. It could be considered a Welfare state as much of the population does not work and it gets a larger than average amount of Federal funds. Though it also produces more than its share of tax revenue via oil taxes. The state is dependent on oil to keep the government running. I believe to the tune of 85% of the state's income. So No state income tax, No state sales tax just very high property tax on the working class. So it is pretty much like every where else that the worker bees get screwed.
There's a storm abrewin'. What happens when good, responsible people keep quiet? Washington has forgotten they work for us. We don't work for them. Throwing good money after bad is NOT the answer. I am sick of the midnight, closed door sessions to come up with a plan. I am sick of Congress raking CEO's over the coals while they, themselves, have defaulted on their taxes. I am sick of the bailed out companies having lavish vacations and retreats on my dollar. I am sick of being told it is MY responsibility to rescue people that, knowingly, bought more house than they could afford. I am sick of being made to feel it is my patriotic duty to pay MORE taxes. I, like all of you, am a responsible citizen. I pay my taxes. I live on a budget and I don't ask someone else to carry the burden for poor decisions I may make. I have emailed my congressmen and senators asking them to NOT vote for the stimulus package as it was written without reading it first. No one listened. They voted for it, pork and all. O.K. folks, here it is. You may think you are just one voice and what you think won't make a difference. Well, yes it will and YES, WE CAN!! If you are disgusted and angry with the way Washington is handling our taxes. If you are fearful of the fallout from the wreckless spending of BILLIONS to bailout and "stimulate" without accountability and responsibility then we need to become ONE, LOUD VOICE THAT CAN BE HEARD FROM EVERY CITY, TOWN, SUBURB AND HOME IN AMERICA. There is a growing protest to demand that Congress, the President and his cabinet LISTEN to us, the American Citizens. What is being done in Washington is NOT the way to handle the economic free fall. So, here's the plan. On April 1, 2009, all Ameicans are asked to send a TEABAG to Washinton , D.C. You do not have to enclose a note or any other information unless you so desire. Just a TEABAG. Many cities are organizing protests. If you simply search, "New American Tea Party", several sites will come up. If you aren't the 'protester' type, simply make your one voice heard with a TEABAG. Your one voice will become a roar when joined with millions of others that feel the same way. Yes, something needs to be done but the lack of confidence as shown by the steady decline in the stock market speaks volumes. This was not my idea. I visited the sites of the 'New American Tea Pary' and an online survey showed over 90% of thousands said they would send the teabag on April 1. Why, April 1?? We want them to reach Washington by April 15. Will you do it? I will. Send it to;1600 Pennsylvania Ave. Washington , D.C. 20500 ... Forward this to everyone in your address book. Visit the website below for more information about the 'New American Tea Party'. I would encourage everyone to go ahead and get the envelope ready to mail, then just drop it in the mail April 1. Can't guarantee what the postage will be by then, it is going up as we speak, but have your envelope ready. What will this cost you? A little time and a 40 something cent stamp.
What could you receive in benefits? Maybe, just maybe, our elected officials will start to listen to the people. Take out the Pork. Tell us how the money is being spent. We want TRANSPARENCY AND ACCOUNTABILITY. Remember, the money will be spent over the next 4-5 years. It is not too late. :mad: :mad:
Just printed my label and will have it ready for April 1st. Fitting day as our Congress and President are all FOOLS.
I still cannot believe thinking people would advocate more taxes with all the stinking taxes we already pay. We already paid for the roads. We keep paying yet they get more and more potholes in them. We hit one the other day driving the Sequoia that would have destroyed the suspension on my wife's Lexus. If the State is not going to repair the roads we need to send them a tea bag as well.
Boaz, you'd probably like my Athabascan mocassins. My wife wore her pair mostly out and now has a Blackfoot pair from Oards Indian Art Museum (really a small garage and trading post). Recommended if you ever get over that way. The trading post in Bluff UT is good too, heavy on rugs which is our main interest.
Euphonium, when I search for that Europe on the Ropes title in the local library system I get one hit for a climbing guide.
Newdavidq, Gary touched on it (although a lot of us moved up there by choice). See the Alaska Permanent Fund or Wikipedia for details on one form of sharing the collective wealth. There's lots of different definitions of socialism, and it's really beyond the scope of discussion here.
Ok, more potholes means it's more expensive to drive too. So people will drive less to save wear and tear on their cars, thus paying less gas tax. Potholes do make an effective traffic calming device.
we only have one small rug that my wife bought at the Wheelwright Museum trading post. Two Laguna Indian Pots two Acoma pots. A horse hair bear sculpture. Some route 66 kachinas and some Zuni Needle point jewelry. So mostly we have Hopi, Zuni and Navajo and Acoma things so far.
I am willing to send my tea bag to congress as well.
But I do believe you have hit on an idea. Leave the pot holes and people will drive less or at least they will drive on other streets. That was a method they must have come up with in Kenya. There were plenty of places where it was smoother to drive in the dirt.
Gary, that's really just a major problem in CA, where the "environmentalists" have a tendency to be on the "wacko fringe" and not centrists.
In most states, the green movement is NOT a severe hindrance to alternative energy, but instead are the movers, shakers, and drivers behind the adoption of alternative energy.
In most states, the green movement is NOT a severe hindrance to alternative energy, but instead are the movers, shakers, and drivers behind the adoption of alternative energy.
And what percentage of alternative energy is produced in Arizona, arguably the sunniest place in the USA?
I have no problem with alternative energy. My complaint is the Legislature that is controlled by the fringe kooks, have mandated a percentage of alternative energy to the producers. That same bunch of whacko nut cases have blocked attempts to use alternatives. Then the state wants to fine the producers for not meeting the mandate. Which is just passed on to the consumers. The best place for solar is the desert. The only way to get the power to the people is with a power line. So we have one bunch of environmentalist blocking the power line and another stopping the construction of a solar generator in the desert. And the governator just twiddles his thumbs because the loudest eco terrorist are his Hollywood buddies.
So why not tax oil for more and force people to use alternatives that the same tax and spend bunch are blocking. This is becoming a very divisive issue that could lead to a civil war. I believe the military is on the right side. Most don't even consider Obama a legitimate leader.
Hundreds of protesters gathered at the Capitol in Harrisburg on Saturday afternoon to throw a "tea party" against President Barack Obama's $787 billion economic stimulus package.
"You are called to a new revolution today," conservative talk radio host Gary Sutton, of York's WSBA-910, told the crowd, estimated to have numbered around 1,000 by the State Capitol Police.
The consensus among protesters was clear: The stimulus plan won't lift the country out of its economic crisis.
"This bill is going to reward people who are grossly irresponsible," said David Nace, a Lititz resident and co-owner of Wickersham Construction & Engineering Inc.
The president has also called for an additional $75 billion to stem home foreclosures.
Blasting Obama's proposals, protesters clamored for more tax cuts and reduced government spending to solve the country's economic troubles.
Less taxes and less spending is the only chance for recovery. Those of you that want to pay more for gas, will likely get your wish. Oil prices are headed back up as the dollar is diluted by the stimulus.
The wheels are coming off But that is not the whole story. It is not even the most worrying part of the story. For the true horror to emerge, we need to turn to Eastern Europe for a minute or two. Nowhere has the credit boom been more pronounced than in Eastern Europe. And nowhere is the pain felt more now that credit has all but dried up. One measure of the credit fuelled bonanza is the deterioration of the current account across the region. Credit Suisse has calculated that in four short years, from 2004 to 2008, Eastern Europe's current account went from +6% to -6% of GDP2. That is a frightening development and is likely to cause all sorts of problems over the next few years.
Meanwhile Western European banks, eager to milk the opportunities in the East after the iron curtain came down, have acquired many of the region's banks (see chart 1). Now, with many Eastern European countries in free fall, ownership could prove disastrous for an already weakened banking industry in the West.
The problem is widespread To make matters worse, the problems in the East are beginning to look systemic. Credit Suisse has produced an interesting scorecard where they rank a number of countries around the world on factors usually taken into consideration when assessing the credit quality of sovereign debt (see chart 2). At the top of the tree (i.e. the worst credit score) you find Iceland – hardly surprising considering their current predicament. More importantly though, of the next 14 countries on the list, 8 are Eastern European – not what you want to hear if you are an already undercapitalised European bank with huge exposure to Eastern Europe.
Swedish banks are already reeling from their exposure to the Baltic countries. Austrian banks are in even worse shape, having been the most acquisitive of any European banks. Some Italian banks could be dragged under by their Eastern European exposure and even the conservative banking sector in Switzerland doesn't look like it can escape the mayhem.
Worst of all, the problems in the East are just about to unfold at a point in time where the European banking industry is bleeding heavily from massive losses already incurred in other areas. With no access to private funding, banks find it virtually impossible to re-build their capital base with anything but tax payers' money.
But Arizonans are learning that it takes more than blazing rays to make Phoenix the "solar capital of the world."
The Sonoran Desert is among the most efficient spots on Earth for solar power plants and rooftop solar arrays. Click here to find out more!
State requirements for utilities to get 15 percent of their energy from clean sources by 2025 also would seem an opportunity for solar manufacturing.
But most solar panels, mirrors, frames and other equipment are made elsewhere. In case after case, the state has fallen short of the competition. At least 10 companies have looked at Arizona in the past two years but decided to move their factories and about 4,500 workers to other Western states.
Business experts say the state needs to use some of the tax credits and other tools used by those other states to diversify its housing-dependent economy and deliver the state high-paying manufacturing jobs.
Some business leaders and politicians have made it a mission to grow Arizona's solar industry, saying it could anchor a strong economy.
"Just because it's sunny doesn't mean we are going to get solar companies here," said Rep. Michele Reagan, a Scottsdale Republican who is co-sponsoring a renewable-energy manufacturing-incentive bill with Sen. Barbara Leff, R-Paradise Valley.
"We have not capitalized on any industry in the solar arena or renewable energy at all.
But it's not the Environmentalists stopping it here. It's higher corporate tax rates.
Still the government screwing up the works. Either over taxing or over regulating. I am going to win you over sooner or later. This country is in deep doo doo and it is over regulation and over taxation at the root of the problem.
I was curious what percentage AZ has of alternative energy. The CA mandate is 20% by 2010 and 33% by 2020. We are not even close to reaching that level by 2010. SDG&E was hoping to reach 12.5% with that solar project in the desert. That is on hold until the Supreme Court decides on the power line project to San Diego from the desert. SDG&E signed a contract with that AZ company to build that high powered solar collector and it is on hold also. So the utilities will have to pay fines to the state and cap and trade to the Feds all passed onto the customers.
I support the idea of taxing polluting activities or activities that are doing bad to the country. I don't support taxing income as there is nothing bad in legally making money (this is a good think actually). The overall increase of tax burden burden should be limited as much as the situation allows, but healthy activities should be supported while unhealthy ones bearing more tax.
I don't mention other specific activities because I am not knowledgeable enough to saw how much doing X or Y is good or bad, but it would be interesting to make a global reassessment.
Saying we should 100% tax products from China is as precise as saying we should tax all non US products. As nearly everything is made in China, and that you have some very good suppliers as well as very bad ones, there is no miracle solution. Moreover, who would finance the US debt...? Japan is not able to do that anymore and Germany has other challenges by the plenty.
>We keep paying yet they get more and more potholes in them.
I agree with the principles of transparency and accountability. While I support building alternative infrastructures, I also support keeping roads in good repair order. Bad roads increase fuel consumption, reduce average speed and increase the likelihood of traffic accidents.
Overhauling roads was one objective of the new administration, but, while a necessity, this is as dramatic as paying a long overdue bill
Unless you agree to let the deficit flow unchecked, I don't see any other practical way to pay for this than to raise gas tax.
There is not going to be a large conversion in this country to mass transit.
I dunno, gagrice, check this out:
Transit Use Hit Five-Decade High in 2008 as Gas Prices Rose
Published: March 9, 2009
More people rode the nation’s public buses, subways and commuter trains last year than in any year since 1956, when the federal government created the Interstate highway system, according to a report by a transit association.
......Use of public transportation in the United States has risen 38 percent since 1995, the report said.
Ridership surged after gasoline prices hit $4 a gallon last summer and held steady in the fall after gas prices fell, the report found.
........Transit officials were especially heartened that Americans continued to turn to public transportation in the last quarter of the year, even after gas prices dropped
Certainly, it isn't all smooth sailing. But the consumer interest in public transit is clearly there. I think yours is a fairly San Diego-centric view. Here in the Bay Area, plenty of people that could afford to drive ride the train and bus instead. And we're not the only ones, other big east coast cities are the same. It's just that we haven't put anywhere near enough effort into developing mass transit in many areas of this country, including yours.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
>the high fuel prices were the "straw that broke the camel's back".
I am going to further my view a litte. In Europe, where tax represent 80% of gas price, the Gas liter was about 1.5 Euro in summer 08 while it is down to 1.1 now , a 40% difference. in the US, the Gallon Price went from nearly 5 USD to less than 2 over the same time frame.
What does it mean ?
1) High tax diluted the gas increase, which contribute to make the situation easier to handle for business and people. On the contrary, such highs and lows disrupted businesses and household in the US
2) European economies were less dependant from gas than the US (they are still too much though). People could turn to alternatives easier or had already fuel efficient vehicules that softened the spike. This relative advantage did not just fall from the sky
If a single straw could break the camel's back, it is because US economy is unreasonably dependant from cheap oil and that something should be done about it.
Should gas become expensive as in Europe, trust me , people would find serious ways to lower the bill
I am also pretty unimpressed by this stimulus package that will be mainly burned into spendings.
Just throwing money into people's hands wil end up in a straw fire and nothing else after.
My vision for Us to go out from this recession would be to invest (not spend) all this money into rail infrastructures. All those programs would create an activity comparable to when Insterstates were created.
Instead of money flowing to buy foreign made consumer goods, funds would go to a project that would bring its benefits for many decades. Workers, engineers, architects, specialists, electricians, managers, assistants, helpers, directors, secretaries.... many serious jobs would be created locally
I think it is high time for the US to launch long term initiatives that will bring real wealth instead of focusing on short term profit
Massively investing in R&D could allow the US out of recession. The next frontier would be to master fusion, a far more promising technique -and far less polluting- than fission. Manhattan project 2 would be a strong way to restart the economy.
I'm not a big fan of the grid, and not just because the high tension powerlines are an eyesore. Grids fail and go down, whether they are electric, internet or gasoline pipelines (we have umpteen miles of those crisscrossing the country - leaking, occasionally blowing up and they make ripe targets for nefarious folks).
Better I think to scale it down so that communities or subdivisions or individual properties are self sufficient. All we need is a battery break-though or a garage nuke that generates no waste, or Vchiu's tabletop fusion generator. Or even scale it down to the appliance level, like Lennox is doing with their solar assisted heat pump.
Look at the gasoline grid - if one refinery goes down, the pipelines shut down for a big part of the country, and you're left with trucking fuel all over.
But little projects don't appeal to the pols like grandiose schemes - who wants their photo taken at a ribbon cutting of a new home heat pump?
The head of the committee that was set up to oversee the TARP was on NPR this afternoon. She was very very very precise to point out that Paulson lied to the press, to her and to all of us when he had his sock puppet get on TV last fall.
He adamantly refused to tell her and her committee anything that he was doing and where any of the first $350 Billion went. He did tell her that the US taxpayers paid $350 Billion for $350 Billion 'worth' of value for the money invested. 'Par for $100 invested'.
In fact it actually turned out that none of that was true. At the best case we got $92 of value for $100 invested and in some cases ( like Citicorp ) we got $50 worth of value for $100 invested. The rest was a gift, no strings attached. Until he left office he refused to tell her or the committee anything else.
gagrice: you suggested that it was over-regulation and over-spending that got us here. I'll agree on the latter but it was lack of oversight that let the thieves and crooks have access in the first place. Even the patron saint of 'let the market sort it out', Greenspan himself, has admitted that he was very very wrong. His latest is nationalize Citi and BoA.
While at it...to try to save GM nationalze it as well. Kill off Chrysler and give Ford a fair shake in gifts.
I can see your point and have always liked the idea of being off the utility teat. The real downside now is the Internet. I have become addicted and will have to go for treatments to break the addiction.
Realistically I would have gone solar or may still on this house. The back side of the roof is a natural South facing and large. I may have to force my neighbor to cut down about a dozen large pine trees to get the best results. That and the $30,000+ price tag is a tough choice. I can squeeze about $100 per month out of a $30k investment. My electric bill before it gets Obamanated averages about $100. That and my experience is with any technology today it is no longer covered when it fails or the company has gone out of business. I am fighting with HP on my wife's new computer with Vista. It is not compatible with my Office 2000 Professional. HP and MS says spend $300+ for a new version of Office.
That solar heat pump is not all that great. It just runs the fan. The refrigeration unit is where the electricity is used. I doubt it would come close to paying for itself. Same as all solar today. Give us some Federal tax credits, not CA tax credits. They are no good as CA is not paying tax refunds this year. Maybe never.
Just thinking my car insurance should be going down. Far less people driving around. People driving more sanely. Claims have to be going down. Side air bags. All the pickup trucks are parked. The news yesterday said that the city was going to pull 10% of the cops off of ticket writing and have them patrol high crime neighborhoods as a major change in policy. I'm thinking 'who runs gov't? and what morons they are'. 98% of our cops are trying to ticket people driving to work? While crime areas are unpatrolled? Actual cost of a ticket? $300 to courthouse, $700 to ins. co.
The roads are empty compared to 2 years ago. We can't afford a new car or to even drive so hit us with a huge gas tax? The roads are empty enough to allow swerving to go around potholes.
taxes are 35% of my income already. Insurance is 9%. The other 56% we get to spend on things we consume. However, if any of that is valuable or lasts, we need more insurance and may generate more taxes to pay.
I'm all south facing and above any trees. There's about a dozen passive solar water heaters in my older subdivision. The entry fee for panels is a bit much up front though.
I'm using an Office 2000 component under Windows 7. I'm sure there's a fix somewhere.
The Lennox unit has a ways to go, but around here the fan in the outside compressor unit runs a lot almost every day.
Now, back to the topic:
Alaska rolled back gas taxes a while back. Not sure if the rollback is still in place. My bud up there says that gas prices didn't really change. RUG at the Anchorage Costco is $2.33.
Everyone, how about we give the politics a rest and stick to gas taxes? Thanks.
Everyone, how about we give the politics a rest and stick to gas taxes? Thanks. I was about to say I am pretty much tosted on this subject. But you did manage to make me smile. What other that politics can taxes at this point have?
Comments
Jackson came up in here back in January for making similar comments. First post in fact. He's proposed a gradual increase to wean people off gas guzzlers and to make it easier for automakers to plan - he's not happy that the HUMMER sells like gangbusters one year followed by Prius shortages the next I guess.
The article also quoted him as saying "With a combination of fuel-efficient cars and cheap gas, Americans will opt for big vehicles, choose homes located farther from their workplace and drive many more miles.
It would be “an environmental and economic disaster for America,” he said."
All in all, interesting comments from someone making his living selling cars. AutoNation is the biggest chain of car dealers in the US.
Twelve million.
It all reads just like Pelosi's bill. Spend. Waste. Spend. Waste. And someone wants to give these people more tax money from gasoline just to punish poor folk paying for gasoline?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Yes but we are hearing these things from people that have no plan on how that transition can be financed. And until it has an alternative in place it is going to hit the working class right between the eyes. That is why we don't get to vote CEOs into or out of office.
You can't blame the consumer for buying what they want if what they need isn't available. There were those that suggested we would have been better off if we never had cars but it has also been pointed out that our cities would have ended up three feet deep in road apples if we were still using horses.
We have a lot of non elected experts telling us that all we need to do is hold our breath and click our heels together and the problem is solved. High fuel prices haven't solved the problems in Europe have they? The economy is still hitting the skids there. And think about it, most of europe has a public transportation system already. People can't sell there houses and move into the cities because at least on the West coast the jobs aren't in the big cities. They are out in the urban sprawl.
So any suggestion that taxing the consumer at this time will benefit America in Myopic at least. Because it will cut back on the limited income people already have. It will contribute to falling prices of houses and increase the pressure on banks and the stock market. The butterfly effect may only be a theory but in this case it does show cause and effect. If you want to tax fuel tax fuel when people can afford to pay the tax. Otherwise once they kill the goose forget about any eggs in the future.
The other tactic to get people out of gas guzzling SUVs and trucks seems to be working. I'm not sure that wiping the D3 out of business is such a good way to do that though.
Yet there are a few that act as if it is business as usual and that something like a $4.00 fuel tax will not be a problem. I don't know where you live but I do know that many people in the north east use hundreds of gallons of heating oil just to survive. Can you imagine the difference in their heating bill if the price of fuel increases by $4.00? I have talked to some that say their winter heating bill is over $2500.00. I don't know how true that might be because I don't live where we use heating oil. But you add $4.00 tax on that fuel and then put the state income tax on top of that and those same heating bills hit $5000.00 easy. Soon those people can decide of they want to stay warm or eat but not both. But then we would be more like Europe as far as personal income goes. :P
Can you imagine the rush to find cheaper alternates to oil if there was a $4 gas tax? $3 a gallon gas certainly helped push hybrid car tech.
They are also allowed to buy high mileage diesel cars, SUVs and small PU trucks to save on fossil fuel. Something that is virtually blocked in this country. Tariffs and crazy regulations have kept US driving 16 MPG trucks, mini-vans and SUVs.
You are right that $4 gas tax would be the death knell for at least two of the D3. And why would the CEO of any big corporation care if gas was $9 per gallon? They write it all off for their Maybachs and Rolls Royces.
You only need to read a little history to learn the horrible conditions which existed in cities before the auto replaced horses. Filthy, disease ridden streets that smelled so bad in the summer that those who could afford it would flee to "country homes". The poor people could only hope to get jobs shoveling the waste and try not to come down with typhoid..
But to some folks, this is "natural".
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
"...Despite opposition from the White House, a proposal to tax motorists on the number of miles they drive each year is gathering speed on Capital Hill. Pep. James Oberstar D-Minn. rushed to it's defense, saying "Weather they want it or not, they are going to get it". Sen. Barbara Boxer called the milage idea a brilliant idea..."
Where are we living, Russia? Even if we don't want it and the president opposes it, these clowns are going to force it on us? I think I'll move to Cuba where at least they make no pretense of democracy. :mad:
Another thing that makes me crazy is the need for a GPS system in every car to track you. Why not just read the odometer each year and tax accordingly? :confuse:
I think there is more behind this than gas taxes. :sick:
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
I am reading Crabgrass Frontier that covers that subject in minute detail. By the late 1700s the middle class were moving further out of the cities to avoid all the things that were bad with the cities. Much of that exists today in major cities. Crime, smell and noise. None of which I could live with. The only thing that held the people back was transportation. The steam ferries solved the problem for NYC and 100,000 people per day were crossing the river by ferry each day in 1830. Talking to some of the jurors that took the trolley when going downtown, it was because of the lack of parking near the Courthouse. It makes a 20 minute drive a two hour bus and trolley ride for those in the outer suburbs.
So here is the question. We add $4 Federal fuel tax. How does that impact the buses that are still diesel? It costs $500 per year now for our children to ride the bus to school. Those buses are all diesel. That is why there is a line of SUV and mini-vans half a mile long going into most CA schools.
Where do you fill up Oldfarmer? I assume the school district's motor pool handles fueling. Do they pay the same tax as private vehicles?
If you're talking about my school bus my school district has several banks of pumps. They are exempt from most taxes when they buy their fuel (don't know about federal tax). I do remember seeing something on the bulletin board asking drivers to not drive too fast because the school was paying $.87 per gallon for diesel. IIRC, diesel was going for about $1.40 per gallon at that time.
Our district provides free bus service for all kids but there are still hundreds of SUVs and cars blocking the entrance to all our buildings every morning. Some parents feel that their children are just too good to ride with "those" people. :confuse:
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
Those will be parents voting against increased funding levies for the school because they cost too much, right! :P
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
The real point is an increase in fuel tax will increase the cost of transportation period. It will increase the cost of food housing and medical care. There are no exemptions that cover trucking, Air Transportation or Shipping. And the tax will not help build the funds necessary for the working class to purchase new vehicles. And in case someone wants to mention hybrids as benefiting from high fuel prices. When the hybrids we see today came out fuel prices were low. In fact the hybrids we got in 2000 were exactly what Toyota and Honda tried to get CARB to agree to more than 30 years ago when it was proposed that we have EVs. And as soon as the hybrids came out the EVs were dropped.
At least here in California we discovered two proven truths. All taxes to promote schools don't go to Schools. This in direct violation of prop 98. All taxes from fuel don't go to road repair.
I have no faith that increased taxing of fuel will do anything but decrease the economy of America. I also have a suspicion that is exactly what the ones that propose it at this time have in mind. Because there is no practical way in will improve the life of the American worker.
Boaz, I don't think fuel taxes (and registration fees, etc.) has ever covered all the road building and maintenance costs. Otherwise, there'd be little need for all those earmarks.
How would they know? If they spend any of the money for anything other than what is was collected for why do we think they would spend any additional tax for roads. Still as I said the Prius and Insight were developed when gas we less than it is today. so high fuel prices had less to do with it that people say.
Lets say you are like me. You have no car payment. You own your own home. You don't live on credit. You save money each month. All things we were told to do by the experts and the government. Add to that you have decreased your fuel useage by 50 to 60 percent over the last year and a half. What incentive would $4.00 tax give me? Support my local business less maybe? Don't visit the dentist as often? Cringe at the increased cost of air fare? This is the reward we get for doing the right thing? Or you can be like our governor. Fly in a lear Jet from home to the office every day. Have a fleet of hummers in the yard or garage. A housing compound only slightly greener than Al Gore, who has a carbon foot print bigger than the business I used ot work at. And they suggest we need more taxes on fuel?
By the way, in many school districts in Southern California school busses are serviced by Laidlaw. They do not get a fuel break and the tax payer will be asked to fund the transportation cost. Laidlaw bills the district for equipment, drivers, and fuel based on a bid. You can look it up. And some of those districts are pretty big, like San Bernardino, number six in the state.
what everyone tries to avoid is just what will this do to the Restaurant worker? what will it do to the student worker? what will it do to the family man who is out looking for work? How will he directly benefit today and in the next two years from paying $4.00 more a gallon? Or is the suggestion that they should stop driving and stay home and collect welfare and unemployment till it runs out? Because I can't believe the suggestion would be to go into more debt and finance a new car? Isn't it exactly that thinking that got us in this mess? Buy a home you can't afford and in the future things will be better? Because so far that seems to be what i am hearing the tax people say.
"Taxation is theft"
"A politician is someone who has never met a tax that he or she did not like"
Wasnt the US revolution over a 1 % tea tax?
Wasnt the US income tax only supposed to be no more than 2% on the highest income earners in 1913.
Politics is the systematic organization of hatred pitting one group against another to gain political power.
According to IRS.gov the bottom 45 percent of filers now pay no income tax.
The top 1 percent pays 41 percent of all taxes and earns only 20 percent of the total income.
Atlas is in the process of Shrugging.
by Niels Jensen
It is worse over there than you know.
They were opportunistic. I agree to turn it around and say cheap gas opened a boulevard to non-US brands in this market. I am not throwing stones against the 3 and I don't consider they were specifically ill-managed.
> Instead they were spent on fuel
I am ready to stand corrected if expensive fuel is considered as the cause of the recession.
This link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_crisis_of_2007%E2%80%932009
suggested it was another cause and I made this hypothesis mine
From september 2008, gas prices dropped and they reached sub $2 per USG, yet I don't feel the US crisis doing U turn or at least improving somehow.
>We already have a tax-and-spend administration
Looks like this administration is more spend than tax, which should translate in more deficit. Regardless on how the money will be spend or invested, a higher fuel tax looks like mandatory
I understand from you, Eupho and Gary that Environmentalists should be blamed for blocking any alternative.
Although I value the quality of the environment and the idea of sustainable development, I don't consider myself as specifically being an environmentalist. Yet, I suspect the "environmentalists" you mention would rather belong to the Not in My Backyard movement.
For High Speed trains, everybody want a station but nobody wants the railtracks. For nuclear power, that is the same, to a greater scale...
Add a few other environmental pressure groups funded by oil companies, and we get a picture of why those projects are so unpopular.
The one who pollutes should be the one who pays.
When we reach the point when there are more voters getting a check from the government than there are voters who are paying taxes, the American Dream is dead.
I think this quote covers it:
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy; its inherent value is the equal sharing of misery."
Winston Churchill
I don't think all of the gas taxes paid by drivers are even going to highway repair and construction. Mass transit and the general fund and a host of other "needs" most assuredly claim some of those funds. Gasoline taxes are regressive, meaning they fall disproportionally on lower income people. I don't care one whit what great purpose my tax money is supposedly going to be spent for, I can find a better use for it. Enough is enough.
DQ
To vchiu: Why not a big tax on Corn producers and users. It is highly polluting and draining our water aquifer? Or a 100% tax on consumer goods from China, India, Vietnam, Malaysia etc etc. As we are causing those countries to pollute at a much higher rate with all the added manufacturing. I am trying to think of anything humans or animals do that does not produce GHG and other pollutants. That goes for the birds that poop on my patio when I feed them.
Oil is just one of many natural resources we use to make our lives better. When it is gone hopefully man will have found an alternative. If not, the human race may just DIE.
From the time Alaska was settled there have been schemes to keep people there. Lower taxes was one of them. The permanent fund was another. When you look at Alaska it is a State that has 8 months of winter and 4 months of bad weather. Without some incentive many of the working class would move elsewhere. It could be considered a Welfare state as much of the population does not work and it gets a larger than average amount of Federal funds. Though it also produces more than its share of tax revenue via oil taxes. The state is dependent on oil to keep the government running. I believe to the tune of 85% of the state's income. So No state income tax, No state sales tax just very high property tax on the working class. So it is pretty much like every where else that the worker bees get screwed.
MY responsibility to rescue people that, knowingly, bought more house than they could afford. I am sick of being made to feel it is my patriotic duty to pay MORE taxes. I, like all of you, am a responsible citizen. I pay my taxes. I live on a budget and I don't ask someone else to carry the burden for poor decisions I may make. I have emailed my congressmen and senators asking them to NOT vote for the stimulus package as it was written without reading it first. No one listened. They voted for it, pork and all.
O.K. folks, here it is. You may think you are just one voice and what you think won't make a difference. Well, yes it will and YES, WE CAN!! If you are disgusted and angry with the way Washington is handling our taxes. If you are fearful of the fallout from the wreckless spending of BILLIONS to bailout and "stimulate" without accountability and
responsibility then we need to become ONE, LOUD VOICE THAT CAN BE HEARD FROM EVERY CITY, TOWN, SUBURB AND HOME IN AMERICA. There is a growing protest to demand that Congress, the President and his cabinet LISTEN to us, the American
Citizens. What is being done in Washington is NOT the way to handle the economic free fall.
So, here's the plan. On April 1, 2009, all Ameicans are asked to send a TEABAG to Washinton , D.C. You do not have to enclose a note or any other information unless you so desire. Just a TEABAG.
Many cities are organizing protests. If you simply search, "New American Tea Party", several sites will come up. If you aren't the 'protester' type, simply make your one voice heard with a TEABAG. Your one voice will become a roar when joined with millions of others that feel the same way. Yes, something needs to be done but the lack of confidence as shown by the steady decline in the stock market speaks volumes.
This was not my idea. I visited the sites of the 'New American Tea Pary' and an online survey showed over 90% of thousands said they would send the teabag on April 1. Why, April 1?? We want them to reach Washington by April 15. Will you do it? I will. Send it to;1600 Pennsylvania Ave. Washington , D.C. 20500 ...
Forward this to everyone in your address book. Visit the website below for more information about the 'New American Tea Party'. I would encourage everyone to go ahead and get the envelope ready to mail, then
just drop it in the mail April 1. Can't guarantee what the postage will be by then, it is going up as we speak, but have your envelope ready. What will this cost you? A little time and a 40 something cent stamp.
What could you receive in benefits? Maybe, just maybe, our elected officials will start to listen to the people. Take out the Pork. Tell us how the money is being spent. We want TRANSPARENCY AND
ACCOUNTABILITY. Remember, the money will be spent over the next 4-5 years. It is not too late. :mad: :mad:
I still cannot believe thinking people would advocate more taxes with all the stinking taxes we already pay. We already paid for the roads. We keep paying yet they get more and more potholes in them. We hit one the other day driving the Sequoia that would have destroyed the suspension on my wife's Lexus. If the State is not going to repair the roads we need to send them a tea bag as well.
Euphonium, when I search for that Europe on the Ropes title in the local library system I get one hit for a climbing guide.
Newdavidq, Gary touched on it (although a lot of us moved up there by choice). See the Alaska Permanent Fund or Wikipedia for details on one form of sharing the collective wealth. There's lots of different definitions of socialism, and it's really beyond the scope of discussion here.
Ok, more potholes means it's more expensive to drive too. So people will drive less to save wear and tear on their cars, thus paying less gas tax. Potholes do make an effective traffic calming device.
I am willing to send my tea bag to congress as well.
But I do believe you have hit on an idea. Leave the pot holes and people will drive less or at least they will drive on other streets. That was a method they must have come up with in Kenya. There were plenty of places where it was smoother to drive in the dirt.
In most states, the green movement is NOT a severe hindrance to alternative energy, but instead are the movers, shakers, and drivers behind the adoption of alternative energy.
And what percentage of alternative energy is produced in Arizona, arguably the sunniest place in the USA?
I have no problem with alternative energy. My complaint is the Legislature that is controlled by the fringe kooks, have mandated a percentage of alternative energy to the producers. That same bunch of whacko nut cases have blocked attempts to use alternatives. Then the state wants to fine the producers for not meeting the mandate. Which is just passed on to the consumers. The best place for solar is the desert. The only way to get the power to the people is with a power line. So we have one bunch of environmentalist blocking the power line and another stopping the construction of a solar generator in the desert. And the governator just twiddles his thumbs because the loudest eco terrorist are his Hollywood buddies.
So why not tax oil for more and force people to use alternatives that the same tax and spend bunch are blocking. This is becoming a very divisive issue that could lead to a civil war. I believe the military is on the right side. Most don't even consider Obama a legitimate leader.
"You are called to a new revolution today," conservative talk radio host Gary Sutton, of York's WSBA-910, told the crowd, estimated to have numbered around 1,000 by the State Capitol Police.
The consensus among protesters was clear: The stimulus plan won't lift the country out of its economic crisis.
"This bill is going to reward people who are grossly irresponsible," said David Nace, a Lititz resident and co-owner of Wickersham Construction & Engineering Inc.
The president has also called for an additional $75 billion to stem home foreclosures.
Blasting Obama's proposals, protesters clamored for more tax cuts and reduced government spending to solve the country's economic troubles.
http://articles.lancasteronline.com/local/4/234780
Less taxes and less spending is the only chance for recovery. Those of you that want to pay more for gas, will likely get your wish. Oil prices are headed back up as the dollar is diluted by the stimulus.
But that is not the whole story. It is not even the most worrying part of the story. For the true horror to emerge, we need to turn to Eastern Europe for a minute or two. Nowhere has the credit boom been more pronounced than in Eastern Europe. And nowhere is the pain felt more now that credit has all but dried up. One measure of the credit fuelled bonanza is the deterioration of the current account across the region. Credit Suisse has calculated that in four short years, from 2004 to 2008, Eastern Europe's current account went from +6% to -6% of GDP2. That is a frightening development and is likely to cause all sorts of problems over the next few years.
Meanwhile Western European banks, eager to milk the opportunities in the East after the iron curtain came down, have acquired many of the region's banks (see chart 1). Now, with many Eastern European countries in free fall, ownership could prove disastrous for an already weakened banking industry in the West.
The problem is widespread
To make matters worse, the problems in the East are beginning to look systemic. Credit Suisse has produced an interesting scorecard where they rank a number of countries around the world on factors usually taken into consideration when assessing the credit quality of sovereign debt (see chart 2). At the top of the tree (i.e. the worst credit score) you find Iceland – hardly surprising considering their current predicament. More importantly though, of the next 14 countries on the list, 8 are Eastern European – not what you want to hear if you are an already undercapitalised European bank with huge exposure to Eastern Europe.
Swedish banks are already reeling from their exposure to the Baltic countries. Austrian banks are in even worse shape, having been the most acquisitive of any European banks. Some Italian banks could be dragged under by their Eastern European exposure and even the conservative banking sector in Switzerland doesn't look like it can escape the mayhem.
Worst of all, the problems in the East are just about to unfold at a point in time where the European banking industry is bleeding heavily from massive losses already incurred in other areas. With no access to private funding, banks find it virtually impossible to re-build their capital base with anything but tax payers' money.
Funny that you ask:
AZ Not a Solar Leader (but should be)
Yes, it's sunny here.
But Arizonans are learning that it takes more than blazing rays to make Phoenix the "solar capital of the world."
The Sonoran Desert is among the most efficient spots on Earth for solar power plants and rooftop solar arrays. Click here to find out more!
State requirements for utilities to get 15 percent of their energy from clean sources by 2025 also would seem an opportunity for solar manufacturing.
But most solar panels, mirrors, frames and other equipment are made elsewhere. In case after case, the state has fallen short of the competition. At least 10 companies have looked at Arizona in the past two years but decided to move their factories and about 4,500 workers to other Western states.
Business experts say the state needs to use some of the tax credits and other tools used by those other states to diversify its housing-dependent economy and deliver the state high-paying manufacturing jobs.
Some business leaders and politicians have made it a mission to grow Arizona's solar industry, saying it could anchor a strong economy.
"Just because it's sunny doesn't mean we are going to get solar companies here," said Rep. Michele Reagan, a Scottsdale Republican who is co-sponsoring a renewable-energy manufacturing-incentive bill with Sen. Barbara Leff, R-Paradise Valley.
"We have not capitalized on any industry in the solar arena or renewable energy at all.
But it's not the Environmentalists stopping it here. It's higher corporate tax rates.
I was curious what percentage AZ has of alternative energy. The CA mandate is 20% by 2010 and 33% by 2020. We are not even close to reaching that level by 2010. SDG&E was hoping to reach 12.5% with that solar project in the desert. That is on hold until the Supreme Court decides on the power line project to San Diego from the desert. SDG&E signed a contract with that AZ company to build that high powered solar collector and it is on hold also. So the utilities will have to pay fines to the state and cap and trade to the Feds all passed onto the customers.
I support the idea of taxing polluting activities or activities that are doing bad to the country. I don't support taxing income as there is nothing bad in legally making money (this is a good think actually). The overall increase of tax burden burden should be limited as much as the situation allows, but healthy activities should be supported while unhealthy ones bearing more tax.
I don't mention other specific activities because I am not knowledgeable enough to saw how much doing X or Y is good or bad, but it would be interesting to make a global reassessment.
Saying we should 100% tax products from China is as precise as saying we should tax all non US products. As nearly everything is made in China, and that you have some very good suppliers as well as very bad ones, there is no miracle solution. Moreover, who would finance the US debt...? Japan is not able to do that anymore and Germany has other challenges by the plenty.
I agree with the principles of transparency and accountability.
While I support building alternative infrastructures, I also support keeping roads in good repair order. Bad roads increase fuel consumption, reduce average speed and increase the likelihood of traffic accidents.
Overhauling roads was one objective of the new administration, but, while a necessity, this is as dramatic as paying a long overdue bill
Unless you agree to let the deficit flow unchecked, I don't see any other practical way to pay for this than to raise gas tax.
I dunno, gagrice, check this out:
Transit Use Hit Five-Decade High in 2008 as Gas Prices Rose
Published: March 9, 2009
More people rode the nation’s public buses, subways and commuter trains last year than in any year since 1956, when the federal government created the Interstate highway system, according to a report by a transit association.
......Use of public transportation in the United States has risen 38 percent since 1995, the report said.
Ridership surged after gasoline prices hit $4 a gallon last summer and held steady in the fall after gas prices fell, the report found.
........Transit officials were especially heartened that Americans continued to turn to public transportation in the last quarter of the year, even after gas prices dropped
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/09/us/09transit.html?ref=us
Certainly, it isn't all smooth sailing. But the consumer interest in public transit is clearly there. I think yours is a fairly San Diego-centric view. Here in the Bay Area, plenty of people that could afford to drive ride the train and bus instead. And we're not the only ones, other big east coast cities are the same. It's just that we haven't put anywhere near enough effort into developing mass transit in many areas of this country, including yours.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I am going to further my view a litte.
In Europe, where tax represent 80% of gas price, the Gas liter was about 1.5 Euro in summer 08 while it is down to 1.1 now , a 40% difference. in the US, the Gallon Price went from nearly 5 USD to less than 2 over the same time frame.
What does it mean ?
1) High tax diluted the gas increase, which contribute to make the situation easier to handle for business and people. On the contrary, such highs and lows disrupted businesses and household in the US
2) European economies were less dependant from gas than the US (they are still too much though). People could turn to alternatives easier or had already fuel efficient vehicules that softened the spike. This relative advantage did not just fall from the sky
If a single straw could break the camel's back, it is because US economy is unreasonably dependant from cheap oil and that something should be done about it.
Should gas become expensive as in Europe, trust me , people would find serious ways to lower the bill
Just throwing money into people's hands wil end up in a straw fire and nothing else after.
My vision for Us to go out from this recession would be to invest (not spend) all this money into rail infrastructures. All those programs would create an activity comparable to when Insterstates were created.
Instead of money flowing to buy foreign made consumer goods, funds would go to
a project that would bring its benefits for many decades.
Workers, engineers, architects, specialists, electricians, managers, assistants, helpers, directors, secretaries.... many serious jobs would be created locally
I think it is high time for the US to launch long term initiatives that will bring real wealth instead of focusing on short term profit
Massively investing in R&D could allow the US out of recession.
The next frontier would be to master fusion, a far more promising technique -and far less polluting- than fission. Manhattan project 2 would be a strong way to restart the economy.
I'm not a big fan of the grid, and not just because the high tension powerlines are an eyesore. Grids fail and go down, whether they are electric, internet or gasoline pipelines (we have umpteen miles of those crisscrossing the country - leaking, occasionally blowing up and they make ripe targets for nefarious folks).
Better I think to scale it down so that communities or subdivisions or individual properties are self sufficient. All we need is a battery break-though or a garage nuke that generates no waste, or Vchiu's tabletop fusion generator. Or even scale it down to the appliance level, like Lennox is doing with their solar assisted heat pump.
Look at the gasoline grid - if one refinery goes down, the pipelines shut down for a big part of the country, and you're left with trucking fuel all over.
But little projects don't appeal to the pols like grandiose schemes - who wants their photo taken at a ribbon cutting of a new home heat pump?
He adamantly refused to tell her and her committee anything that he was doing and where any of the first $350 Billion went. He did tell her that the US taxpayers paid $350 Billion for $350 Billion 'worth' of value for the money invested. 'Par for $100 invested'.
In fact it actually turned out that none of that was true. At the best case we got $92 of value for $100 invested and in some cases ( like Citicorp ) we got $50 worth of value for $100 invested. The rest was a gift, no strings attached. Until he left office he refused to tell her or the committee anything else.
gagrice: you suggested that it was over-regulation and over-spending that got us here. I'll agree on the latter but it was lack of oversight that let the thieves and crooks have access in the first place. Even the patron saint of 'let the market sort it out', Greenspan himself, has admitted that he was very very wrong. His latest is nationalize Citi and BoA.
While at it...to try to save GM nationalze it as well. Kill off Chrysler and give Ford a fair shake in gifts.
Realistically I would have gone solar or may still on this house. The back side of the roof is a natural South facing and large. I may have to force my neighbor to cut down about a dozen large pine trees to get the best results. That and the $30,000+ price tag is a tough choice. I can squeeze about $100 per month out of a $30k investment. My electric bill before it gets Obamanated averages about $100. That and my experience is with any technology today it is no longer covered when it fails or the company has gone out of business. I am fighting with HP on my wife's new computer with Vista. It is not compatible with my Office 2000 Professional. HP and MS says spend $300+ for a new version of Office.
That solar heat pump is not all that great. It just runs the fan. The refrigeration unit is where the electricity is used. I doubt it would come close to paying for itself. Same as all solar today. Give us some Federal tax credits, not CA tax credits. They are no good as CA is not paying tax refunds this year. Maybe never.
The roads are empty compared to 2 years ago. We can't afford a new car or to even drive so hit us with a huge gas tax? The roads are empty enough to allow swerving to go around potholes.
taxes are 35% of my income already. Insurance is 9%. The other 56% we get to spend on things we consume. However, if any of that is valuable or lasts, we need more insurance and may generate more taxes to pay.
I'm using an Office 2000 component under Windows 7. I'm sure there's a fix somewhere.
The Lennox unit has a ways to go, but around here the fan in the outside compressor unit runs a lot almost every day.
Now, back to the topic:
Alaska rolled back gas taxes a while back. Not sure if the rollback is still in place. My bud up there says that gas prices didn't really change. RUG at the Anchorage Costco is $2.33.
Everyone, how about we give the politics a rest and stick to gas taxes? Thanks.
I was about to say I am pretty much tosted on this subject. But you did manage to make me smile. What other that politics can taxes at this point have?
But you are right, there is no place left to go.