Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!

All-New 2010 Legacy/Outback

1568101126

Comments

  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 16,747
    I haven't been looking too closely, but it may have to do with the production schedules, if not demand. For the 3.6, the "premium" is the base model, isn't it? I would expect those to be in higher demand than the Limited version.
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250
  • curvecurve Member Posts: 20
    The 3.6R has base, premium and limited (just like the 4 cylinder). I think that here in New England most people would add heated seats $1000 to the Premium so it gets close to the Limited $2k higher price, which includes heated seats. Just a guess.
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 16,747
    Whoa! Heated seats (all weather package) is a thousand-dollar option?! MSRP is $400 on the Forester, I wonder what all that includes for the Outback. It must be more than the mirrors, seats, and windshield.
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250
  • jimbresjimbres Member Posts: 2,025
    Yeah, the aftermarket units represent much better value than the factory systems, which are overpriced by a factor of at least 2. I've got a foot in both camps; my wife's Lexus is equipped with factory NAV, while I have a 2005-vintage Garmin c330 that we move between our other 2 cars.

    Even if all of our cars had factory NAV, we'd still need a portable unit to cover those vacations that involve getting on a plane & picking up a rental car at the other end.
  • tee_el_ceetee_el_cee Member Posts: 20
    I prefer portable NAV because they're so much cheaper, they can serve more than one car, including rental cars, and you can walk with it when you get where your going.

    But there's an an option between factory and portable -- aftermarket in-dash. Recently I saw a double-DIN Kenwood NAV/Radio/CD/DVD/MP3 with a 7 or 8 inch LCD that had Garmin navigation. The NAV menus were just like other Garmins.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    http://blogs.edmunds.com/straightlin...tback-25i.html

    This is the first test I've seen of the 6-speed manual in a non-turbo model.

    Bob
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 16,747
    That was a darned good write-up, referring to this article:

    http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FirstDrives/articleId=153789

    This statement about sums it up for me:

    But if you were hoping this new Outback was going to remain a tidy AWD wagon made smarter for you and roomier for guests, you'll be disappointed with Subaru's newest SUV.
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250
  • red927red927 Member Posts: 118
    According to cars101.com, the 3.6 Premium has everything the 3.6 base has plus the All Weather Package, 10-way power driver's seat and leather wrapped steering whell with audio controls
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    One thing to keep in mind is that all editors reviewing vehicles do bring their own bias (often age-driven) to the table to some degree. Edmunds is no different. Most of their editors are 30-somethings, and their comments often reflect those of others in that age bracket. If you're 40+ or older (or 20-ish or younger), you may well disagree with what's been reported here.

    I know that I, now age 64, look at cars much differently than when I was in my 20s or 30s (even though I drive a WRX!). Something to think about...

    Bob
  • ssmintonssminton Member Posts: 155
    I am seeing lots of comments on lower cost of the portable units. I have factory installed in my everyday car, and I have a portable unit for travel so I am familiar with both camps. I would love to hear from someone on the board who actually uses a portable unit everyday. Since this is a Subaru board, I understand that it will be hard to get insights from people using factory units everyday. I hear lots of people recommending the portable, but I don't see how these are close ot equal to the factory. Operation while driving, having to remove the unit when parking, and short-lasting mounting systems for everyday use are just a few of the disadvantages of the portables.

    I just recently purchased a new Tom-Tom portable to replace my 5-year old Garmin, which I use while travelling. I find the new unit, a touch screen, to be very difficult to operate while driving. The older Garmin, with ATM style button control was much easier. Still, I find myself using my Nav almost daily to check traffic on the way to work, find a bite to eat, etc. Will I really be happy with the new higher-end portables? Has anyone seen a portable with weather service?
  • saedavesaedave Member Posts: 694
    I know that I, now age 64, look at cars much differently than when I was in my 20s or 30s (even though I drive a WRX!).

    Bob,

    You are still young. At 77 I know my automotive tastes have changed from Corvette,MGs motorcycles and engine-swap modifieds to wagons that permit good outward vision and hold large garden tools. But editors must attract young enthusiasts so youthful bias can keep automotive interest alive.

    Dave
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    9.4 seconds to reach 60, not slow but not at all quick. The Forester is lighter so I bet it's quicker with its 5 speed manual.

    How does the CVT compare?
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 16,747
    That is absolutely right, Bob, and is certainly reflected in this discussion (as can be seen only a score or so posts ago!). One of the reasons I liked the article so much is that it was very forthright in claiming that the car is well done, but is certainly not the same animal it replaced other than its nameplate. The author illustrated the car's strengths and changes from the last model year. So, for those wanting the previous generation's deficiencies addressed while retaining its strengths, this new model is not the car we wanted to see.

    I remain a fan but at this time am a disappointed one. :D
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I'll try to respond.

    My first exposure to factory Nav was in a loaner 06 Tribeca I had for a full week. That got me fascinated with it, but I also saw some limitations:

    * OE option cost was very high
    * could not even find gas stations while moving on a trip
    * touch screen was far away from the driver
    * no backup cam (fixed since, but Forester still lacks one)

    Since then I'll add several more:

    * map updates come seldom and cost a whopping $230
    * residuals are worse with than without nav, because they get outdated quickly
    * you cannot load custom POI databases
    * can't take the with you to use in rental cars, which I do
    * hard (impossible?) to transfer favorites from one car to the other

    Dennis from the Subaru Crew introduced me to his Garmin StreetPilot c340, and I haven't looked back since. I've owned a c320 (sold it), c340, Nuvi 200w, and Nuvi 260w.

    You list 3 cons, I'll react to each.

    Operation while driving - actually it's better, because you can operate while driving. Take it out of safety mode, and your passenger can find the nearest gas station. To re-enter a desination in the Tribeca we had to PARK! :mad:

    This is absurd. Subaru has a passenger detector in the seat for the airbags, so it knows there is someone there to use it, yet it locks you out.

    The screen and buttons are bigger, yes, but they're farther away, you have to reach quite a bit.

    What I did with my portables was I bought a vent-mount. On my mininvan and on my wife's Forester, this puts the GPS very close to you, within arm's reach, and much closer than the Tribeca's. That compensates somewhat for the smaller size. It is harder to see but actually easier to type on the closer touchscreen.

    Having to remove the unit while parking? With the vent mount I put a hat over the entire thing so it's disguised. I'm still taking some risk but less than a suction cup on the windshield, which draws attention from far away.

    Short-lasting mounting systems - I didn't like the suction cup because they would fall on those ultra-hot summer days, but the vent mount has resolved that problem and cost under $10. To be honest my wife still uses the suction cup and it has lasted for several years, but I prefer the vent mount.

    Garmin > Tom Tom, I agree there.

    Have not tried weather service or traffic service, but I'd like to.

    Keep in ming the price levels - I paid $179 for my fanciest Garmin, so we're talking 1/10th the price of the 6" screen on the Forester.

    We bought an 09 Forester and I sampled the Nav. 6" screen, no backup cam, no Bluetooth last year (fixed for 2010), can't use while in motion, can't take voice commands. No thanks. I'm not sure I would have bought it for half price, to be honest. It's very low tech and outdated for the price.

    The Outback's is much better, 8" screen, backup cam, bluetooth. So at least it's complete. That I would consider, at least. Plus it's closer to you than the Tribeca's touch screen was. I'd like to see traffic integrated and maybe voice commands.

    If I test drive an Outback I'll ask for one with Navi because I'm curious to see how much better it is compared to the Forester.

    tlc mentioned the Kenwood in-dash head units, and they sell for $600-800, with Garmin navigation. Those have 6.5" screens IIRC, and you can add backup cams for $99 more, though you'd have to have it installed by a pro.

    Still, for about 1/3rd the cost of the Forester's Navi, you'd be way ahead in technology. I think I'd do that.

    I'd consider the Outback's simply because it's more updated, but the price would still be hard to swallow.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    The screen on the in-dash Forester/Impreza NAVI is 7", not 6". The new Legacy/Outback unit is 8" as you say.

    Bob (being anal, as usual) :P
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Maybe it's 6.5" and they rounded up!

    You sure the visible image is 7"? It did not seem that big.

    I took a photo of my 4.3" screen right next to the factory screen. The portable is closer, so that helps, but the difference in practice was fairly small.

    I bet your 5" screen, mounted closer on a vent-mount, would be basically the same size.

    Lemme see if I can dig up that photo.
  • ssmintonssminton Member Posts: 155
    Thank you for the Nav insights. I agree with you that the Subaru Nav is a difficult one, with all the limitations. My Acura Nav has traffic, easy "i-drive" style joystick control, and I can locate my favorite food, etc... while driving:) I find that this system, along with the other luxury models are very capable, easy to use, and worth the extra money.

    I have not been able to personally experience the 2010 OB Nav yet, but I understand it is much improved from previous systems. Unless it can be used while driving and integrates to traffic (this should be a no-brainer since Subaru already works with XM!), it will unlikely meet my needs. I do also like the idea of a backup camera, a truly integrated bluetooth and ipod system that is also part of the OB Nav as well. As I have said before, I really want to buy a Subaru, but the techno gadgets or lack of them is worrying me. I appreciate that many drivers may not appreciate such conveniences, but I drive 25K + mi each year.

    One comment on updating maps... I have been using portable GPS since they came out. You can easily go 3-4 years, without updating and still achieve full usage. In fact, I tend to replace my portables, rather than update. I find that the changes in POI's usually cause me to upgrade before the road changes.

    Thanks again!
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Bingo! I actually found that post, with the photo:

    http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f178d36/987#MSG987

    Check it out closely. At the time I seemed to think the Forester's screen was 6.1", maybe that's the visible image size.

    Check it out, the Garmin screen is 4.3 or 4.4", depending upon who you ask (CR says 4.4"), but mounted closer the OE unit is only very slightly bigger.

    Honestly, Bob, I think your 5" screen would be the same size as the factory one in that closer position.

    For $430 and with many more features, not $1800.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Subaru advertises it in their brochures as 7". I checked on that, so I know that to be a fact. Whether it's a full 7"? Who knows...

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Depends...I drive to the beach a lot, and the older maps do not have the bypass in Bridgeville, MD, that I pass each time. It's just annoying I guess. Plus they're building the ICC here in MD, and that will change how I drive nearly everywhere (including to visit rsholland).

    For $65 an update, no biggie.

    For $230, ouch. At least you can split it in half if you find someone who wants the west coast DVD. $115 is acceptable, I suppose.

    Still, for that much you can get lifetime updates from Garmin.

    Like you, I replaced one of my GPS units, actually sold it to a friend, and bought a bigger screen.

    I may do the same with my nuvi 200W. They cost $149 new, if I can get $99 for it (with 2008 maps), it would make more sense for me to buy a new one rather than spend $65. If so I may get either a bigger screen (5") or one with traffic, or both. :shades:
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Doesn't look like it, check the photo in my link above.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    https://www.subaru.com/content/downloads/pdf/brochures/2010_forester.pdf

    Check out p.18 (I think?) on the specs page under "Optional Equipment." It says "7-inch high-resolution touch-screen."

    BTW, this is the brochure in which Lana is modeling. :)

    Bob
  • gmginsfogmginsfo Member Posts: 116
    I understand what you're saying about the 4AT being better in life than on paper, but the problem I have with it is that if I drive over 74 mph, I'll be driving over 3K RPM, which just drains gas. If the CVT can do 75 mph at 2K, surely Subaru could put a 5AT or add a simple overdrive to the Forester to get 75 mph RPM down to 2500 RPM or so. And that would make quite a big difference for me gaswise, with all the fast freeway driving I do.
  • eps105eps105 Member Posts: 216
    I have an Outback 3.6R Limited with nav on order and I spent a lot of time at the dealer playing with one and I actually read through the entire manual.

    To me, the integrated nav is worth the $2k (barely - $1400 seems more reasonable) strictly for the integrated nature of all the functions. That is, the audio mutes when the phone rings, the nav text-to-speach and Bluetooth phone plays through the speakers, the backup camera is integrated into the screen, etc.

    I only played with the nav while parked, and the manual does state that some functions are disabled while moving (but doesn't specify which ones), but you can control virtually everything using voice commands while driving. Seriously, there's an appendix in the manual with like 9 pages of commands it accepts. You can even say things like "I'm hungry" and it will show you the closest restaurants. While driving. There's like 200 commands, and you can control the radio and change songs from the USB hub too with the voice commands. (Unlike Acuras, I don't believe you can control the climate control though. Oh well.)

    That, and the fact that I'm sure someone will eventually figure out how to defeat the override anyway made me comfortable enough to go ahead and order it. (The Forester nav can be defeated simply by cutting one wire in the wiring harness which tricks it into thinking the e-brake is on. You can watch DVDs and all while driving (not recommended!))

    Also, I timed the delay between starting the car, putting it in reverse, and actually having the reverse camera screen pop up. It was something like 10-12 seconds. This is way better than some cars and most aftermarket units that make you wait until the whole system is booted up, like 30+ seconds. I was very pleased.

    As far as I know, the Outback nav does NOT have any support for traffic, but I could be wrong as I didn't research the XM Nav Taffic integration. However, I have not seen a single marketing mention of that being an available feature.

    Probably the only thing that bummed me out is that the system does not have a 3D view, but I was relieved to read it can be easily togged between North always up and the road ahead facing up, so the latter is almost as good as 3D to me.

    If anyone has more questions, I'll try to remember to post the answers when I take delivery in mid-October.

    Elliot
  • ssmintonssminton Member Posts: 155
    Elliot... Thank you so much for your insights on experiencing the Nav system. Until your comments, I did not realize the Subaru bluetooth did not play through the audio, unless you have it with Nav... a biggie! I am also happy to hear about the voice commands... as long as I can say find Starbucks along route, I'm half-way there. Perhaps the "traffic" capability has snuck in on the new system, along with the voice activation.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Nah, too pale and too frail. But I sent that to her, she'll get a laugh out of it.

    I know they say 7" but marketing materials are often optimistic. They could be rounding up, at least.

    I'm looking forward to the CVT also, supposedly the Outback is humming along near 2000rpm at 80mph! :shades:
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I agree about the integration issue. That's the next frontier, IMHO. Also glad to hear it accepts voice commands.

    I have traffic on my BlackBerry from Google Maps, portable Nav, seperate audio, and a fish-eye lens on the back window as my low-budget backup cam, but it would be nice to have one device tackle all of the above. $2 grand is still a steep price to pay, but as I said above, I would at least consider it.

    The Forester is missing half those things (no backup cam, won't accept voice commands), so it really doesn't offer nearly as much advantage.

    I don't get why Subaru has 3 systems (if you include the Tribeca). Time to standardize.

    The better portables do some of those things, but not all, no backup cam for instance. No integration with the in-car audio, either, though there's a mute button on the steering wheel of the Forester (my Mazda also, but not my Toyota).
  • curvecurve Member Posts: 20
    I have an Outback 3.6R Limited with nav on order

    Elliot,
    can you tell us the sticker/invoice vs. actual price?
    Did you have to order because of the nav?
    How long is the wait? 1-2 months?
    Any comments from the dealer about lack of nav availability?

    Thanks.
  • eps105eps105 Member Posts: 216
    All invoice details are on Edmunds. I got it at invoice because I was able to use the Subaru VIP program through my wife's company. Pricing varies widely around the Philadelphia area, with some dealers selling at or near invoice and others barely budging from MSRP. My wife's uncle claimed he had a verbal offer for $250 under invoice, but I don't know if there were any catches.

    I ordered it because I had a very specific combination of features I wanted (Azurite Blue, nav, trailer hitch, puddle lights, interior LED lights, cargo nets) and I don't mind waiting. In fact, I prefer waiting in the hopes that they work out any early production bugs before mine is built.

    Wait time for special orders is officially quoted at 6-8 weeks but I've been told to expect closer to 6.

    I did not ask about nav availability. It's typical that early production runs include high-end models to satisfy the early adopters as well as the mainstream models expected to be top sellers. The rest will come later. I have seen several models on the lot with navs. I imagine they're just selling very quickly.

    Elliot
  • moendmmoendm Member Posts: 8
    I recently purchased a 2010 Outback, with navigation...my question...is the navigation system always on when the car is running?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    My Forester came all the way from Gunma, Japan, in 5 weeks. I was surprised, too. :shades:
  • eps105eps105 Member Posts: 216
    You can choose what shows up on the screen, that is you toggle between radio station presents, music folders, nav screen, etc.

    So you aren't forced to look at the nav screen whenever the car is on if you don't want to, and I think you can completely power off the nav/head unit just like you power off the radio.

    I would guess that when the car is on, the GPS locator is powered so that if you do choose to use the nav, it already knows your location.

    Elliot
  • eps105eps105 Member Posts: 216
    ssminton:

    "Until your comments, I did not realize the Subaru bluetooth did not play through the audio, unless you have it with Nav... a biggie!"

    That's not what I said. All Outbacks with the Harmon Kardon audio upgrade (with or without nav) come with Bluetooth and play through the speakers. Only the base models that don't come with Bluetooth and are upgraded with the "BlueConnect" accessory have a standalone speaker. I'm not sure if the BlueConnect accessory can also play through the speakers, but in the pictures it sure looks like it has it's own dedicated speaker.

    Elliot
  • kmartinkmartin Member Posts: 427
    "I know that I, now age 64, look at cars much differently than when I was in my 20s or 30s (even though I drive a WRX!)."

    A VERY young 64, then, Bob ;)
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Some may say immature Karen, but thanks. :)

    Bob
  • ebroadedebroaded Member Posts: 12
    A salesman told me that the heated seats on the Forester and Outback only heat the bottom cushion and not the back cushion. He pointed to the little marks coming off the bottom cushion of the icon on the switch as proof. Other cars have heat in both the back and the bottom. Is it true that Subaru only heats the bottom cushion? I want heat in the back cushion as well, but don't want to rule out the Subaru if that salesman is wrong.
  • nickelnickel Member Posts: 147
    Sincerely, I don't know, but in my Tribeca the are more than I need (Minnesota cold). When I had an Outback they were more than enough too.
  • nornetnornet Member Posts: 24
    The 07 and 08 heated seats are for the bottom only not the back. The salesman is probably giving you the straight goods but I can't say for sure that the 2010 didn't change.
  • morin2morin2 Member Posts: 399
    My 09 Outback has the heated seats and they do heat the lower back part of the seat. I don't know about any other year and my wife's 07 Forester does not have heated seats, but the lower 1/3 of the upright (back) on the 09 Outback SE definitely heats. I wouldn't mind a little more heat, but it is much better than nothing. Note that the little heated seat symbol used near the switch shows heat rising from only the bottom cushion.
  • ebroadedebroaded Member Posts: 12
    Thanks. I went back to the dealer and found out that both the new Forester and Outback have heat in the lower 1/3 of the back cushion. Fortunately the first salesman was wrong about the backs not having heat.
  • prigglypriggly Member Posts: 642
    Thanks very much for the info. Very helpful as I am considering the 2010 Outback and definitely want heat in the seatbacks.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    You beat me to it, our Forester heats the buns and the back! :shades:
  • gjksngjksn Member Posts: 35
    Is there anybody else out there who thinks it's regrettable that Subaru has essentially abandoned station wagons? I love my 2003 Legacy wagon and chose Subaru specifically because it was a station wagon and had AWD. Wagons have always seemed like one of the backbones of Subaru's success -- similar to Volvo. I had a 2009 Outback recently while my car was being serviced, and it just didn't seem to have that hunkered down on the road feeling that my low-slung 2003 Legacy wagon has. And with the new 2010 Outback further into SUV territory, I wonder how many Subaru faithful out there lament the passing of wagons. The Forester is also much more SUV-like while the Impreza/WRX feels more like a hatchback than a station wagon.
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 16,747
    I am right there with you. I miss the wagons, too. Granted, I still appreciated the sub-2010 Outbacks as wagons, even though they did sit higher than the Legacy, but they were very much a wagon while also giving the versatility of decent ground clearance.
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    You are not alone.

    No hurry out and go find a cherry used 2005 Legacy GT wagon with a manual trans while there are still some left.

    That was the epitome of a Subaru.
  • gjksngjksn Member Posts: 35
    I agree. If I'd known that Subaru was going to be coming out with the Legacy GT in 2005, I'd've waited a couple years instead of buying my 2003 on this very date in 2002. Nonetheless, when I think about replacing my '03, I realize how much more I like it when compared to the models available now. Maybe it was all those childhood years in Kingswood Estates and Town & Country's, but the design of wagons just makes sense to me. Oh well, the heightened chassis of the newer models will probably make it easier for aging knees getting it & out.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Toyota Camry Hybrid.

    My old college roommate just bought one, it was very nice inside, like it in many ways, but I was surprised that it didn't have folding mirrors either.

    Not sure about regular Camrys.
  • eps105eps105 Member Posts: 216
    Regular Camry's don't either. When I found out at the New York Auto Show that the new Outback didn't have folding mirrors, I was cognizant of this decontenting while looking at other cars at the show and was shocked to find that much of the competition don't have folding mirrors either... Camry, Mazda 6, Altima IIRC, and many more.

    I haven't corroborated my theory very far, but my working theory is that decision is based on whether the cars are domestically produced in North America, which don't need the folding mirrors to squeeze closer together on the freighters from Japan. That's why the Forester and Mazda 3 do have folding mirrors.

    Anyone care to dig deeper into this to see if my theory holds up with most other mid-size non-luxury family cars?

    Elliot
  • samiam_68samiam_68 Member Posts: 775
    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090912/ap_on_re_us/us_masked_speeder

    Didn't know what thread to stick this into, but pretty funny...
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 16,747
    That is funny, and the quote by VonTesmar at the end of the article is absolutely correct.
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250
Sign In or Register to comment.