Subaru Legacy/Outback

viktoria_r

I am concerned not about "checking" fluids, etc, but about what actually has to be DONE at 15K. Any fluid changes (aside from oil). I had my oil change/tire rotation done at 14K. Do I really need to pay dealer for popping the hood of my car open and observing various dipsticks marked in "vivid yellow" and checking wiper blades. I was quoted as high as $299 for 15K service. It's a lot of money if all that they do (aside form oil change/rotation) is check fluid levels... I can find "vivid yellow" dipsticks myself, with your help, and save some money ))
Thanks

ateixeira

If you feel up to it, we can help out. I kept photos of my 30k maintenance, which covers everything done at 15k and more.

They are here.

-juice

viktoria_r

I called another dealer, and here is what they do:
-various checks and fluid top-offs
-oil change/rotation (already done)
-change air filter
-check cruise control (??? what's there to check? it either works or it does not, and i dont even use mine)
-inspect/clean brakes (might have been done alredy w/rotation, have to see the invoice)

I specifically asked whether anything else aside from oil+filter, rotation and air filter has to be DONE or REPLACED. He said no. Asked about price without oil/rotation - was quoted $195.

I still fail to unerdstand how (possibly) adding a little fluid here or there and air filter can cost $195... I probably can manage to change air filter myself, with the help of your pictures.

hypov

According to maintenance manual also included; front and rear axle boot, axle joint portions, steering and suspension.
I did my 15k service as recommended in manual plus AT fluid and front/rear diff oil change (synthetic), and replaced AT filter, fuel filter, and PCV valve.... whopping $500+ The hefty $$$ was the man hours spent on removing the AT fluid pan and putting it back.

-Dave

rob999

Instructions for changing the air filter ARE documented in the Legacy/Outback Owners Manual (at least for my 2001 model).

viktoria_r

Was AT fluid, front/rear diff oil change required? Or you just wanted to switch to synthetics? Was PCV change required?

Steering and suspension - do what with it? Look at it? Check steering fluid?

I am asking because I feel that sometimes mechanics take us all for the ride. How do I know what they really did for that amount of money? How do I know whether they did not just pop the hood open and check fluids with respective dipsticks? If levels/colors are ok (and likely are), they don't do anything and charge big bucks?
check hoses - how? try to pull it by the hand and see if it's attached tightly?

I think my husband is inclined to take it to the dealer fo service... I am still trying to find out what exactly am I going to be paying for...
Thanks.

lateralg

What "manual" are you looking at which specifies AT trans fluid change? Is it the Subaru manual, or one produced by the dealer? Look carefully, please.

viktoria_r

Was AT fluid, front/rear diff oil change required? Or you just wanted to switch to synthetics? Was PCV change required?

Steering and suspension - do what with it? Look at it? Check steering fluid?

I am asking because I feel that sometimes mechanics take us all for the ride. How do I know what they really did for that amount of money? How do I know whether they did not just pop the hood open and check fluids with respective dipsticks? If levels/colors are ok (and likely are), they don't do anything and charge big bucks?
check hoses - how? try to pull it by the hand and see if it's attached tightly?

I think my husband is inclined to take it to the dealer fo service... I am still trying to find out what exactly am I going to be paying for...
Thanks.

hypov

Viktoria-
The synthetic fluid, Fuel & AT filters and PCV valve were changed at my request (not part of schedule)
Steering and suspension, yes basically inspect them.
Mechanic(s) taking you for a ride... Yes and No. It's not so much as to what is performed, but how long it takes statistically. The bulk of the charges comes from the man hours.
Charges for service are levied based on minimum* man hours required to perform a specific task. i.e. 0.3hrs to perform an oil change, 0.5hrs for tire rotation/balance, etc. So, when you put those static time together and multiple by their going rate = the hefty service charge (parts, sundry, tax, misc. not included).
How do you know they did what they were to do?... without going to extreme like marking the tires or the likes, if you can, watch them at work.

* I might be wrong, it could be average.

-Dave

ateixeira

My air filter takes some work, since it's easier when you take the intake apart. But Phase II models are quite different, so I'm not sure. It took me an hour the first time, but now I can do it in a couple of minutes.

Nice thing about dealer service is that receipt will help you come time to re-sell. Plus there is never a question if a warranty issue comes up. If that gives you piece of mind, use a dealer. Alternatives are a mechanic you can trust, or doing it yourself.

15k is too early for changing tranny fluids. Flush the radiator, change the oil, rotate the tires, swap the wiper blades. Spray lithium grease on the sway bar bushings. Check all fluid levels. Clean the brakes? Sure, why not, once the wheels are off. You don't need to bleed them yet so no big deal.

30k is the first "big" service.

-juice

goosegog

Just got back from a one week cruise from Vancouver to Alaska (Celebrity on the MV Mercury - highly recommended) and we visited Ketchikan, Juneau and Sitka. My wife and I could not help noticing, during our 6 hour walkabout in Juneau, the very large number of Subarus. After a while we started counting but then lost count at about 36 or so after a visit to the Red Dog Saloon at lunch time. It seems that one can stand on any street corner in any part of town and see 3 or 4 Subes just parked or driving by. Or one can glance into some little parking lot and see 4 Subes and about 12 other cars. It looked as if 1 in every 5 or 6 cars were Subes! We were astonished. Mostly Legacys and Outbacks, with a sprinkling of Foresters.

Juneau has hills but there are no roads to anywhere else. Sitka and Ketchikan did not have anything like the same proportion of Subes.

ateixeira

Yep, they are popular in Alaska despite having only one dealer (I think). Some folks even go to the Seattle area to get better prices since there is competition.

-juice

nygreg

Is simple. Change oil and filter and rotate tires. Check all fluids and give the car a once over (torn CV boots, leaks, etc). I typically check things as the opportunity presents itself; i.e. while changing the oil I will check the whole front end, boots etc. While washing I will investigate underneath and the rear. When rotating my tires, I will check the brakes, etc.

Dave - I am toying with changing the AT fluid and differential fluids with Mobil 1 at 30K. Did you see any difference with the synthetics and what did you use? Thanks.

Viktoria - I don't get the expense either. I understand your point, Dave, but $195 is not "justifyable" for just checking the car.

Greg

ateixeira

Well, they gotta charge an hourly fee for labor, and it does take some time to check each thing off the list. I took half a day at a leisurely pace to do the 30k service. 15k is simpler, but $195 only pays for about 3 hours of labor at a dealer, if that.

-juice

ffsteve

Goose,

I concur on your observation of Subarus in Alaska. It was the high number of Subarus I saw in Anchorage a few years ago (plus my brother had bought a used Legacy wagon that he let me drive) that attracted my attention to the make. They do indeed rule in the northern state. More surprising to me at the time, was the greater proportion of OLD Subarus to old models of other makes that I noticed. Indicates they last, and their owners hold them in such high regard they continue to maintain and use them.

Now my brother has traded his Legacy for an Audi A6 (oh, the pain!) and now I am enjoying my still-new Bean.

Steve

hypov

Greg-
Ya, I know. I watch the guy change the oil on my OB, and every time I'll say to myself, "Man, I'm paying him $22.50 just to do that (0.3hrs @ $75.00/hr).

On synthetic AT fluid and front & rear diffs oil I used Amsoil, Mobil 1 for engine oil. Well, the AT does shift smoother (don't feel the AT abrupt shifts I get during the winter). Can't comment on the diff since I don't really know what improvement(s) to look/feel for.
I'd switch to synthetic engine oil first and notice some improvement with mpg - upped my mpg by ~1.
After the AT fluid and the diff oil, my mpg upped another ~2. My average mpg prior was 19 mpg mostly city and now its ~22mpg.

-Dave

jfl

Viktoria brings up a very good point. I'll have to check what I was charged for my 15k service when I get home. I fully agree with Greg on doing most of the checks during other maintenance. Now that I'm past my free oil changes I'll have to do all of these other tasks.

Hmmm...$195 for an oil and filter change, new air cleaner, rotate tires, look at and check off a list of items.

juice - Flushing the radiator is not part of the 15k service.

kmclean

Viktoria -

My two-cents' worth: Oil and filter change (I change mine every 3.5K in any event), rotate wheels (up on a rack - which presents the opportunity to check all that "under the car" stuff that's hard to do otherwise - exhaust, brakes (clean?), steering & suspension components, CV boots, diffs, any damage, etc.), check all fluids and top off if needed, spend a couple of minutes carefully looking through the engine compartment for anything amiss, and that's it if the car is asymptomatic. It can't hurt to change any/all other fluids, but why bother (and the environment doesn't really need the excess waste).

Changed the air filter myself (2K OB w/H4) - couple of tools and no more than 30 minutes - could do it in 10 minutes now.

I'd expect a professional shop/mechanic to do all that in under an hour for $100 - unless they're trying to take you for a ride, so to speak. And them's city prices.

Cheers from Seattle,

Ken M.

oregonman

I paid $168 for the "dealer recomended" 15k service on my Outback which included the Subaru required service (basically oil/filter change, tire rotation and the various inspections) plus changing the fuel and air filters. I paid $268 for the 30K service which is the same plus changing coolant and brake fluids. Yes it is a bit expensive, but for me it is worth it to have it maintained at the dealer while it is under warranty. If I kept it past the warranty period, I'd probably check the prices at good independent shops.

viktoria_r

Guys, $195 was WITHOUT oil change/rotation (as i posted before, I've done these at 14K). WITH these 2 items my dealer quoted $251 plus tax. Ouch! I understand that there's time involved, but basically, since oil/rotation is out of the way, they will only be changing air filter... our other vehicle is Isuzu Trooper, so I sometimes take both cars for oil changes to Isuzu dealer(at least Isuzu dealer sends me coupons and gave me 25% off service card when we bought Isuzu - not the case w/Subaru). So Isuzu dealer quoted me even more - $299! ouch again!

hypov

gschwartz Jun 3, 2002 11:19am

Gary -
The AT fluid change is not in the manual for 15k service. I specifically asked for it, cause I was changing them to synthetic.

Viktoria -
I went through the maintenance required minus oil change and tire rotation/balance,
and:
-Disc Brake Pads and Disc 0.3hrs
-Front/Rear Axle Boots and
Axle Shaft Joint Portions 0.3hrs
-Inspect Brake Line and check operation of parking and service brake system 0.5hrs
-Steering and Suspension 0.3hrs
Total = 1.4hrs
@ $75/hr = $105
I can't say the number is realistic for IL, it is as close as I can get using $/manhour from my dealer service. Hope it could help you in any way getting your service worth.

-Dave

porknbeans

I checked out the pics on your maintenance and saw some pretty clean hands and no skinned knuckles. Your wife, or neighbor, must be one helluva mechanic.

I at least expected a pic at the end of you standing next to the car with the hood open, grinning from ear to ear like a proud papa.

Seriously, of all the threads that I follow, this is one of the most helpful and informative to people who have questions without insulting them.

jfl

I paid $117 for my 15 k service w/o oil change and tire rotation. They charged $25 for the air filter. I purchased one recently at a dealer for less than $15.

The 30k was over $400 and that was w/o oil change, tire rotation, and spark plugs!

I will most likely do the 60k service myself.

Thanks Viktoria for raising awareness on this!

oclvframe

I recently posted about needing a 30k mile service real soon. I was trying to get feedback on wether or not $450 was a fair price considering all the work the dealer was doing for that price. I normally work on the cars myself, but, when it comes to radiator fluids, tranny fluids, differential fluids, etc, those are a little harder to dispose of. My dealer does all the fluids I just mentioned, plus pressure bleeds the brakes (not the traditional pump and bleed method) replaces the pcv valve, fuel filter (which I already bought!) and of course the oil/filter. So again the question is: Is $450 a reasonable price for this amount of work?

If it were all just inspections, the obviouse answer would be no, but the list of items they actually do is fairly extensive.

Juice,

I noticed in your fotos you show that you replaced the fuel filter...how hard was it to pull the hoses off the filter once you un-did the screw down straps? I was lead to believe they can be a bear to remove. Any special tools needed (hose puller? etc)?

Thanks for all the help!

-r

viktoria_r

Got quote from another dealer - $135 w/oil/rotation, $100 - without. Probably will go with this one... Also a chance to see how is this dealer...

sugardog

I am 63 years old and have been doing my own
maint since I was 15 when I worked at a neighbor
hood garage, I was doing tuneups before I was
old enough to drive. Later in the Navy, I did
all my own maint, including rebuilding two engines. I've never done tranny's or clutches.
My experience with these periodic maint checks,
is that they are a rip-off, but not to someone
who knows nothing about cars.
Most of the things they check, should be checked
by you everytime you get a chance, especially at
oil change time. I check all levels at oil change time which I do myself. I check brakes when I rotate the tires, again, I do myself.
I don't trust anyone else working on my cars,
I have some experience with dealer repair shops
I can't do it all myself, when I have had repairs done at dealers, they usually break something when they are working on the problem,
sometimes they give the car back with the problem not fixed, I will take my car to a dealer
only as a last resort. Consumer Reports did an article on Auto maint, and they found better satisfaction at independent garages than at dealers.
My advice to you is to learn where the things are that you need to check, and check them yourself.

viktoria_r

but my only concern is if you do it yourself and any warranty dispute arises, you'll have no proof that it was done. For example, I can check fluid levels myself (of course), but what if later something will go wrong what if they'll claim it's bacause i didn't do proper "maintenance" at authorized shop?

lateralg

Keep all receipts. Also, keep a log book in which you record every check & the date. It would be well to keep this in the same log as fuel fill-ups, in which you record date and mileage. This would protect you from their potential claim that you made all the entries after a warranty problem arose.

chuckb5

Your assessment of Subarus in Alaska is correct. I live in Juneau and they are indeed the most popular car. We have limited roads(forty miles north to south) but with the amount of rain(far more than Seattle) and the freezing ice in winter, it pays to be safe. There is a local Subaru dealer and they sell all the vehicles they can get. All over Alaska Subaru has the reputation of a dependable vehicle. I have had two and will purchase a new Bean in July from Seattle. VW's have made some inroads in Juneau but Subaru is still the king in Rain Country.

sugardog

The bottom line is:
If you are a person who knows little about cars,
and has no desire to learn, then the services provided by the dealers are well worth the cost.
It is the free enterprise system at work, you get what you pay for.
As far as warranty's are concerned, I have never had a problem with warranty repairs. I believe that federal laws protect us from that, in other words, the dealer cannot refuse warranty repairs because you did not get the periodic service, I am no lawyer, but I think that would be illegal.
Many of us complain about our governments, but they do protect us more than the business community does. (except on 9/11).

rangerron7

I have been much happier with the competence and level of service at an independent garage than at dealer service departments over the past 25 years.
Now let me clarify, I have had my OB for 2 years and have only had 3 "non-maintenance" repair problems. Two of the problems required multiple trips to the dealer and the other one was resolved in one trip. For me this doesn't represent enough datapoints to conclude that this particular Subie dealer is either "good or bad".
On the other hand, my wife's 02 Forester has been flawless since day one (we've had it nine months now).
Ron

kmclean

Just came back from my independent service shop after having the tires rotated, brakes and rear diffy (fluid) checked (only one I can't easily access from above), steering, exhaust, CV boots and suspension components inspected, underbody checked for any damage/etc. Total cost: $0. Took about an hour. Free to roam around the shop and watch/BS with the mechanics.

Guess where I'll go for the "real" service needed at 30K - and where I'll buy my next tires?

Business loyalty does count. Been using these guys since 1982.

Ken in Seattle

sayhey9244

Just picked up my Regatta Red Ltd wagon this afternoon, and the first question I can't easily find an answer to is: how much weight can you carry in the cargo area, incl. the folded down back seat. Nothing in the manual, and I've emailed Subaru, but if anyone knows....
Also- are there any good aftermarket accessory dealers out there? I'd like to get an extended higher armrest for between the 2 front seats.
Thanks.

hypov

Hmmm
Could this be a first?
I don't think anyone had thought of this question until now...
Oh, Len, you got me creally really really curious :-)
Let us, at least me, know what it is.

-Dave

paisan

You take the Gross Vehicle Capacity and subtract the Vehicle weight to get the Cargo Capacity.

-mike

jfl

On the driver's door is a label with the GVWR (Gross Vehicle Weight Rating). That's the maximum loaded weight (car+gas+oil+passengers+cargo, etc.)

This label is on the door and faces the tire pressure label when the door is closed. However, I didn't see the Vehicle Weight which, as Mike said, you subtract to get the passenger+cargo capacity.

The explaination is in the owner's manual but I didn't see the numbers in the manual.

pica1

After a sometimes rocky seven-year relationship, I'm seperating from my Chevy S10. Her motor is bad, her fenders are sagging and, sad to say, I just don't find her attractive any more (awful, aren't I?).

After some reading and a few test drives, I've shortened my list to a Legacy L or a Volkswagen Jetta wagon (I know, I know. A few on the Jetta board think I'm nuts, too.)

Anyway, I know the Legacy has a great reputation for being reliable and durable. But what about maintenance schedules? Does the Legacy require frequent preventative maintenance work that makes it expensive to own? What about parts (I'm thinking after-warranty work)? I've kept the Chevy running to 196,500 miles, and would expect the same from the Legacy. Is that realistic?

But wait, there's more.

As an International Mountain Bike Association member, I'm eligible for the Subaru VIP program, which entitles me to purchase a Subaru at dealer invoice cost. IMBA defines that as "the amount the Subaru dealer is invoiced by Subaru of America for the car."

Does this mean "invoice" as used with Edmunds True Market Value system, or "invoice" as in dealer wholsale?

If it's the former, it is possible to purchase a Legacy at below invoice? I plan on buying sometime between this weekend and the end of August (it all depends on how long the S10 lasts). Given the time of year and model availability (Legacy L, stick with keyless entry), is it possible to buy below invoice?

One last thing. Our second child is due in September. A couple people on the Jetta board thought the rear seat of the Jetta wagon would be too small for two car seats. I'm sure two car seats will fit in the Legacy -- my question is how comfortably?

Thanks for the help, and sorry for the long post.

hypov

Mark -
It is possible if you've got the MBNA Subaru points to use.

mike + James -
Thanks for the enlightenment.

-Dave

paisan

Check cars.com they have a good specs section where you can find the dry-weight of your vehicle.

-mike

jay_24

Mark,

I traded my s-15 jimmy (182,000 miles) for an Outback Wagon a year ago. Invoice probably would match the 'Kelly Blue book' invoice price. Edmunds list invoice as well as their TMV price.

Will they last 200,000? I hope so too.

For the car seats. I have two kids (3 and 5) the seats have plenty of room. A third car seat might be a little tight but I think somebody here has done it as well! We commonly take the the Subaru on trip(250 miles) an leave the mini-van home because the Subaru is more fun to drive and gets way better gas milage. (28 vs. 22)

--Jay

fudd2be

Hi! Congrats on your soon-to-be-second!!!

I have one car seat in my '00 OB Wagon, and it is installed in the middle of the rear seat. When our second child comes, it will be tight I can see for a few reasons:

(2) I always have the driver's seat all the way back, and for long trips, by wife does too, even though she is 'normal' sized (compared to my 6'6" height).

(1) There is more fore-to-aft room in the middle where there is no seat to obstruct little legs. You will definitely have little room to move the front seat back with a rear facing seat installed in the side positions.

With a toddler, or booster seat, take goodlook at how much leg room the child will have while in the child seat. Toddlers love to kick and push seats with their feet also, so if the front seat back is right on top of them, get ready for a loooooooonnnnnggggg trip!

I see a minivan in my future, once the second child is on the horizon.

Just my observations.

-Howard

hammersley

2 booster seats fit in my 97 OB, but there's not enough room left for a center-sitter, and my 2 smaller kids (4 & almost 6) are getting just tall enough that feet on the back of the seat are becoming an issue. There's a minivan in our *present*, and we're considering a Suburban, because kids have freinds, and friends have stuff, and it all multiplies as it sits in the car!

Cheers!
Paul

ccampbell4

I know this has probably been beaten to death, but... Is there anything I should be doing or reporting to improve my gas mileage? My 02 base wagon 5sp has around 4k on it and my best tank so far with mostly highway was 23mpg. My worst was 17. I saw someone post recently that they got 28 or 29 on a trip. How can there be such a discrepancy? I would be ecstatic if I was getting upper 20's.

paisan

23 isn't bad. There are several factors that will account for milage variances:

1) Load, is the car fully loaded? How many people? Adults?
2) Terrain, is it large hills? Mountains? Plains?
3) Altitude, high altitude v. low altitude will result in different milage
4) Interstate v. 2-lane blacktops, interstates you will generally get better milage on than twisty winding state roads
5) driving style, are you a gun-it type? how fast? there will be a significant difference between 65 and 80mph runs. Do you use cruise?
6) How was it calculated?

Also I think the other person said it was a legacy, maybe even a legacy L which has different gearing and weight than an OB.

-mike

bkaiser1

Your mileage isn't too far off my 01 OB with a 5 speed...I've never seen higher than 26mpg, and that was only ONCE...I consistently get 24-25 on the highway and 21 in the city, although I've seen the mileage go as low as 17 on the highway with a full load of bikes on the roof, gear in the back, and a good headwind for 250 miles or so. Want to improve the mileage a bit? Get the cross rails off the roof rack if you're not using them...my best mileage was with my roof rack (and cross rails) removed from the car. Or just drive really slow to improve mileage, but what fun is that?!

Brian

ccampbell4

Thanks for your input. My "normal" mpg is around 20. I've hit 23 once and 22 once. Otherwise it's been 17-21 over a couple dozen tanks. Most of our driving is with one or two people on relatively flat terrain (Missouri/Kansas). It's almost all city driving. In fact, we only put about 8k per year on our primary vehicle. I keep the crossbars off the roof because I think it looks more sleek without them. The two highest tanks I had were during short road trips. I usually drive 75 on the highway with cruise. The rpm's are around 3500 at that speed. I always feel like it's going to explode running like that for a long distance, but I keep faith in Subaru! I calculate mileage by writing down the trip OD miles, then filling up the tank letting the auto stop shut off the nozel, then divide.
Thanks again for your input.

ateixeira

For best mpg, remove the cross bars, make sure all 4 tires are at 32psi or higher, and drive as smoothly as you can, with shifts at 3000rpm. I've broken 30mpg with my Forester.

John: I've skinned plenty of knuckles and have scars and even stitches to prove it. My wife? LOL, she wouldn't dare harm her beautifully manicured nails! I can't even get her to help in the garden, "it's dirt".

The Fuel Filter is easy. The hoses come off in a snap. Remove pressure in the fuel system by removing the gas cap first, and I used clamps to keep leaking to a minimum.

Payload for the Outback is 850 pounds or so. So you can carry 850 minus the weight of the driver.

VIP program - I just bought with this. You get Edmunds' invoice price minus any incentives, which right now is $750 I believe. That means you pay $750 under invoice.

I bought at Fitzmall.com and according to my math they gave me $850 under invoice plus 6 free oil changes and a free service loaner for life. Sweet deal.

There is plenty of room for 2 kids in the back, leg room is better than the Forester. Head room is excellent sans moonroof. Both are far better than in the Jetta.

Other pluses? Rear disc brakes with ABS in this price range is unheard of. So is AWD. And the Best Pick safety rating from IIHS doesn't hurt.

We bought a 2002 Legacy L wagon with keyless and carpets for $17,827. Keep in mind that includes ABS, 4 disc brakes, 4 channel ABS, power windows, power locks, power mirrors, cruise, keyless, carpets, cargo cover, roof rack rails.

Cons? No cross bars and no CD player, but those are options. Donut spare, though I replaced mine and got alloys too.

Can't beat the value for the money. The Jetta is Impreza sized.

-juice

jay_24

I've posted a couple time that I normally get 26 to 28. My highest has been 30. Now for the 'astrick' **** my city driving is mostly interstate with a little stop/go. Then I get about 26ish. If I just drive highway with a constant speed of about 68-70 then I get 28 and one time 30. So I really never have true city driving other than about 4 blocks to get onto the interstate.

I've watched my mileage for the past 14 months and 20,000 miles. Lowest was 24 with cold temps and some idle/warm-up and highest was 30 with nothing but warm interstate driving.

Needless to say I'm very happy.

Like Juice posted a couple days ago, did the winter mix gas go away? My milage has jumped up about 1.5 mpg in the past 3 weeks.

--jay

jregen7243

I've been averaging about 340-380 miles per tank the last few months. However, in the winter I get betwen 275-315. I think its a mixture of the colder weather and the horrible oxygenated fuel we have to use in NJ.

Jon

ccampbell4

I get around 280 or 290 miles, on average.