Subaru Legacy/Outback

web3

Has anyone with the 5spd transmission had any luck with getting a chattering clutch fixed? I took our 02 OB to the dealer and after leaving the car overnight, to my surprise, it did it for him. He ordered an auxiliary clutch cylinder which he thought was sticking. He called the Subaru Tech line and they said that would not fix the problem. They said they problem was that when the car sat over night rust formed on the clutch as it does on disk brakes and that the chattering occurred until the rust was worn off. I find this hard to believe and at best unacceptable. Does anyone have any suggestions?

barc

My 1044 mile trip I had 2 passengers and some baggage.avg 29.8(U.S.MPG). No roof accessories. Used cruise cont. a bit. Avg speed was probably about 60 MPH.Light traffic and minimal passing. The trip was through the rockies Calgary to Vernon B.C. Always fill tank till pump clicks, then reset trip odo. Also did a drive up to silver star ski hill (big elevation gain), and back down the hill(all brakes). Brakes squeaked a bit after the downhill drive, but squeak stopped. I'll post some city stats later... Car has 3600 miles on it now. Stock tires no modifications at all.

idahodoug

Just bought a '96 Legacy Wagon for my Mother and discovered the dash lights behind the temp and fan speed are out. Basic non climate control HVAC controls. The green LED-like vent indicators work as does the blue A/C indicator. Anyone know what I'll find when I pull this apart? Anyone fixed them? Tips?

Thanks in advance!

IdahoDoug

idahodoug

Wow, this looks like a well organized and heavily populated site. Perfect, as I bought my first two Subarus on the same day a couple weeks ago and I have some questions.

The vent dash light question I just posted, but I also have a question on my '97 Legacy Wagon. I went to look at options to mount cargo tie downs and discovered a change to the '97 that raises the cargo floor with foam slabs vs the '96 simply having carpet laying right on the steel floor. This raises some challenges to putting in cargo hooks as there's an awkward space in there under the floor. The steel floor has 4 threaded holes and the foam slabs have molded holes in place. Has anyone retrofitted cargo hooks in their Legacy? Did you just buy factory hooks from the Outback (guessing that model has them standard)? Any tips or hints?

I only found one search function here and it pulled from ALL the boards - getting me tie down discussions from Chevrolet boards and such. Any better way to search the Subaru boards only? Thanks in advance.

IdahoDoug

grahampeters

G'day

Not only is there space for two kids, even as they grow through the various car seat combinations, but the dog fits in between.

Kids shoving their feet in your back is an issue even with a bus - its something kids have to do until they discover that Dad does a really good imitation of a Vicious Lion. You only need to hit the brakes hard once and leap out, threatening to make them walk home, to ensure no more feet in the back. They understand even when only two years old.

Reliability of Subarus is excellenet and whole life maintenance costs pretty low. In Australia, the Forester is the cheapest mid size 4wd by a long way. Not sure where Liberty/legacy fits but last year's survey had it much cheaper in whole life than any competitors. I am surprised at just how few problems I am having after 75000km.

Many owners run Subarus 300,000km plus (about 190,000miles plus), often pushing them fairly hard. They are extremely robust, possibly a little heavier than equivalent Japanese offerings. Also very crash safe. I have been slammed from behind twice without damage. Other cars were seriusly dented.

Hope that helps

Cheers

Graham

bkaiser1

I now have nearly 30K on my 01 OBW and the clutch has shuddered pretty bad since new. I used to think that it was just a cold weather phenomenon, but now that it's 80-90 degrees and the clutch is still shuddering, I'm thinking that weather may not play much of a role. The dealer just says it's "normal" and there's nothing they can do to correct it. I opened a case file with SOA and they were planning to send a rep out to look at the car, but they cancelled the appointment and I never rescheduled because it was warming up and I hoped the problem would subside until next winter. Since it's getting worse, I may call and have the regional rep look at it anyway. The car's a year and a half old with almost 30K on it, but I still feel like it's a "new" car and should absolutely drive like a new car at this point in its life. Good luck -- you're not alone with this problem, even though Subaru wants you to think you are!
Brian

rob999

Can anyone recommend an aftermarket clutch/pressure plate combination for the Legacy/Outback - one intended for everyday driving but with greater pressure plate spring pressure.

I've been keeping a gas mileage spreadsheet for my 2001 Outback 5spd since day one (currently have 20K miles) and have averaged 24mpg - typically more in summer, less in winter as you would expect. Unfortunately, have never had the pleasure of taking a major highway road trip with the car yet where I can evaluate full "highway" mileage. My daily usage involves a commute of a few miles of suburban stoplight driving followed by 70-75 mph blasts down the expressway for 15 miles or so.

peterson10

Brian,
I'm curious about this growing clutch-chatter complaint. To date I haven't had any significant problems with either my OB or Forester, but perhaps my time will come. What are your engine rpms like at take-off (that second or so that you let off on the clutch pedal)? I'm wondering to what degree differences in driving technique effects the clutch chatter problem.

YetAnotherDave

rob999

I'm also curious as to when the clutch chatter occurs.

When I started driving my OB I had a bit of trouble at first (compared to other manual trans cars I've driven) but found I needed to give it a little more throttle to avoid the shuddering. Haven't experienced it since the early days, and this was my driving technique. Starting from a complete stop in 1st gear, my RPM's are typically at 1000-1200 rpm when the clutch is fully out. My wife still has the dickens with shifting, but she doesn't drive the OB much.

Does the chatter occur when the clutch is being let out or does it occur when the car is fully in gear with no foot on the clutch?

bat1161

I too have been keeping a spreadsheet record of my gas mileage since I have my 00 OBW. After 102 tanks of gas, with mostly city/a little highway driving , I average 21.179 MPG. The best I have ever gotten was 26.70, the worst 17.44. I ususally do 65-75 on the highway. While this can be frustrating considering what SOA says we should get, I still enjoy the car. I'm trying to see if there is any change since I switched to Mobil 1 oil.

Mark

fibber2

I also roll my eyes when I hear of people getting close to 30mpg. My '02 OBW (H4/auto) delivers pretty consistent 22-23. But I live in hilly country, and have a heavy foot - not a good combination.

Steve

fibber2

I know that some have knocked the basic system, and gone aftermarket for better. But to my possibly lame ears, it sounds pretty good for stock.

It sounded particularly good to me after spending time in our other new vehicle, an '02 Honda Odyssey EX. That is a truly poor excuse for factory sound, especially given that the vehicle is considered one of the flagships of the Honda line.

Steve

nygreg

My H4/auto mileage averages 23.5 mpg over 8 months on mixed driving - twisty, hilly roads. I should have data in a few weeks with my new Dunlop Sport A2s, however, indications are it is about the same. I will then move to synthetics in the diffys and tranny.

As for room, we have 3 kids, one in a car seat. With the car seat in the middle, all three fit fairly comfortable. Our little one kicks the drivers seat in our minivan, so that is a problem on all cars.

Greg

oclvframe

I am smiling becuase my '01 Bean with 29000mi on it averages 23mpg consistantly. I fill up at BJs, they just opened up around the corner from my house, and I pay $1.30 for premium....sweet.

-r

ccampbell4

I experience the clutch chatter sometimes as well, usually when the car is "cold", regardless of air temp. I have found that if I use higher rpm's, like 2000 or higher, or a lot of feathering, the problem is minimized. Unfortunately that behavior will probably also mean a shorter clutch life.

ateixeira

My Forester has averaged 25mpg since I've tracked in (April 1999). Our new Legacy, which is heavier but has the Phase II engine, is getting 24mpg so far, but it's not broken in yet so that may improve. Both are 5 speeds.

A gradual launch helps the clutch. In other words, don't add throttle until the car starts moving forward.

HVAC lights? Well, I took my Forester's dash apart to swap the single cup holder for a dual one. I started at the arm rest extension, in the center console, and worked forward from there. All bolts were visible that way and I didn't have to pry anything.

Tie down are a tough one, I think you'll have to fabricate a custom solution for that.

rob: I think paisan got an ACT clutch. Maybe he can share more details?

-juice

paisan

I got it from Primitive. 6-puck Copper with upgraded pressure plate. The XT6 also has a mechanical instead of a hydrolic clutch. It is what most people who have driven stick say is on or off, no slippage at all. Since I just learned to drive stick, it seems normal to me.

-mike

lateralg

Loose engine mount fasteners, or failed mount will cause this,

bkaiser1

It's a weird problem...it only occurs when taking off from a stop in 1st gear, usually when the car is cold, and is worse with low rpm starts. I did have to adjust how I drive the car as I was used to launching the car with about 1000 rpms or so on level ground. Since I started feeding in more gas to start it seems to have minimized the shudder, but certainly not to an acceptable point. I routinely have about 1400 to 1800 on the tach by the time my foot is off the clutch when starting from a dead stop -- yes, I know this will affect the long term durability of the clutch, but at this point, "long term" is not the issue. In the long term, the shuddering is going to shake the whole goddamned car apart so I'll take my chances with a shorter clutch life. When the car is warmed up and behaving normally, it will launch beautifully from 1000 rpms or so with a perfectly smooth clutch takeup and no shuddering whatsoever. But you never really know when the car does not want to play ball with you -- I feel like my technique is not really the root of this problem as I've been driving manual cars for over a decade and never had this kind of trouble. Also, if I haven't figured this Subaru out after 30K miles of starts and stops, it's not going to happen. On a closed road one morning I experimented with different rpms and ways of getting the car going, but there was no conclusive result other than slipping the clutch severely through 3-4K rpms. That's a surefire way to put a temporary end to the shuddering, but it will return later, and it's not something I want to do to a $25000 car with years to go on the loan. My dealer suggested "burning" the clutch and I've read several posts online about momentarily burning the clutch to solve the problem. Yes, it solves it for a while, but is that really sound advice? It's maddening because it seems to be "normal" every time the dealer looks at it. I do think that it's getting worse as the car ages...when it was new, it only happened during the winter months, now it doesn't appear to care how cold or hot it is outside. Great car, though, but a crummy clutch.

Brian

pica1

Juice: I dug out my VIP voucher this morning and noticed at the bottom that it's "not good with any other SOA promotion," etc.

How did you get your dealer to add the incentives on to the VIP price?

I'm really leaning toward the Legacy L (can't afford a GT, and the base Outback is at the fringe of our budget), but I'm not sure when I'll be buying. The S10 has started emitting a screachy whine from underneath the hood; bad things may happen soon.

Then again, like loud Uncle Frank, the truck may stick around for a few more weeks. In which case, I may not buy until August. When do the 2003 models come out, and are there any significant changes for the Legacy L?

hypov

Mark-
Could you elaborate this VIP voucher. Is this the MBNA Subaru points voucher?
At the risk of being shot. The Subaru VIP Program Juice was refering to is a 'benefit' extended to select group(s) [I use the term 'select group' loosely] and it is not a promotion. Moreover, the Program provides for the dealer invoice be reduced by any incentives in effect.

-Dave [bulletproof vest on]

ateixeira

It's the relatively weak pressure plate that makes some clutches do that. Mine had 46k miles though, and only occasionally isn't smooth to engage. Plus I've towed and driven off road, so I abuse it about as much as anyone would.

To be honest, the dealer just gave me that price. It's a no-haggle dealer and they were very up front about it. Fitzmall.com is where I started.

The 2003 will get a new grille, and chrome rings around the dials (on the GT, at least). The 2.5GT gets shiftronic and VTD on automatic models, but the L will likely be pretty much the same.

Just join the IMBA and you can get VIP pricing, it's not difficult to qualify. At Fitzgerald, the price was about $300 lower, so not a make-or-break different IMHO. I would have bought one anyway.

-juice

dcab

Can you get IMBA VIP pricing and use MBNA coupons too?

Fitzmall.com is pricing 2002 Foresters, Legacies and Outbacks $800 to $1500 below invoice now. Does this make the IMBA program unnecessary?

Does anyone know if the IMBA VIP pricing excludes newer models (like '03 Foresters)? I noticed that the fine print allows Subaru to exclude certain models from the program.

hypov

Can you get IMBA VIP pricing and use MBNA coupons too?
Since the Subaru VIP Program isn't a promotion and the MBNA points aren't discount or promotion voucher, I'll say yes the MBNA coupons too.

Fitzmall.com is pricing 2002 Foresters, Legacies and Outbacks $800 to $1500 below invoice now. Does this make the IMBA program unnecessary?
Yes, unless their invoice aren't truly invoice. :-)

Does anyone know if the IMBA VIP pricing excludes newer models (like '03 Foresters)? I noticed that the fine print allows Subaru to exclude certain models from the program.
Newer models inclusive unless otherwise stated. Subaru will inform you which model is off limits.

-Dave [bulletproof vest still on]

leeduncan

If this link copies ok, it will take you to the The Ultimate Subaru Message Board! >The New Generation Of Subarus > SOA didn't fix my clutch-shudder problem! I posted the quote from Mike Shields of SPD. It is getting increasingly difficult to accept the behavior as 'normal'

Greg in IN

http://pub1.ezboard.com/fultimatesubarumessageboardsthenewgenerationofsubarus.showMessage?topicID=3533.topic

pica1

I joined IMBA last June (easy to do, though a high tolerance for dirt and pain is recommended ;-]). Subaru and IMBA require you to be a member for six months in order to use the VIP Partners program.

The authorization form is good for 45 days, although my IMBA representative told me if it expired I could always ask for a new one.

The plan also asks you to pick a dealership. If you don't, it appears they'll pick the closest participating dealer.

Dealer participation, in fact, seems key to this. Although all new, unused Subarus are included in the program, "dealer discretion" plays a big role. I suppose if a dealer wanted to exclude, say, the 2003 Foresters, (s)he could.

Here's what confuses me (and I'll quote from the authorization form). "For vehicle purchases, the price is further reduced by all applicable SOA regional dealer or customer incentives."

Yet larger type at the bottom of the form states: "The special pricing under the VIP program is non-transferable and cannot be combined with any other SOA promotional offers or vouchers."

idahodoug

I have a background in vehicle development with GM and Lexus and just joined the list via 2 Subarus I bought on the same day a couple weeks ago.

I have a couple thoughts on the clutch chatter. Since the chatter seems to be cold startup related, consider that it may not be a clutch problem at all, but a rough running engine during the warmup cycle. Since many of you are able to eliminate the chatter by using higher throttle, it points directly to the engine. Here's why:

An automatic with cold start issues will exhibit a 'flat spot' when accelerating. It will idle fine, come off idle fine. But when you apply throttle it hesitates or has a rough running condition briefly until you keep pushing on the gas pedal and the throttle application is high enough that it's dumping enough fuel in to get the rich mix in the cylinders it needs when cold. On the auto it will simply be an annoying flat spot.

On a manual, this will often manifest itself as a feeling just like clutch chatter because the stumble is directly transferred into the drive train and will make it rock on it's rubber mounts (vs being absorbed in the torque converter on the autos). If this throttle condition happens during clutch engagement it can really get things shaking. Every drivetrain has it's natural vibration frequency - that frequency at which the rubber mounts that support it will rebound and sustain a repeat cycle of drivetrain rocking. This frequency is determined by the manufacturer's choice of rubber durometer and the drive train's mass and center of gravity. It's a range of RPMs - not a specific RPM though there is always a peak at which it is worst.

What's fairly uniform about this rocking is that it occurs at the low RPM's of clutch engagement on almost all vehicles because the rubber mounts are chosen and tuned to eliminate higher frequency vibrations from the passenger cabin. This is a good idea because we all want our engines to feel smooth at the normal driving RPMs of 1000+ which make up 99% of motoring.

If there are times when you're astonished at how much shaking is going on when this happens, it is because the natural resonant frequency of the drivetrain is matching the shuddering of the engine and things can get pretty crazy. This would be a pretty good sign that what I'm suggesting is happening. Continuing with this vein of thinking, you might also note that if you change nothing (gas, clutch) the violent shaking tails back off as engine RPM's increase. What happened is simply that you moved to a frequency above the engine and it's mounting system's natural frequency (sometimes called the sympathetic frequency). Again, reinforces my theory if you experience this.

I suspect that the cold blooded (an industry term for a cold engine) running issues might be due to a bit of engine deposits over the miles causing an already difficult engine phase to get outside the ECU's parameters. The cure for this would be to get either a bottle of Techron Concentrate 20oz (Not the Fuel System cleaner which is a dilute) or Red Line Fuel System Conditioner (harder to find by far, but slightly superior). Most people are surprised at how much deposit matter they have on injectors and valves with low miles like 20k and this is worth doing every year or so.

Also, be sure your engine's air filter is not old / dirty.

Since it only happens with a cold engine, my theory that it is a cold start cycle issue with engine roughness is supported. If it were truly a pressure plate or glazed clutch as some have suggested, it would happen all the time. What changes after the cold start is that a warm engine can operate well even in the presence of combustion chamber deposits. A cold engine's combustion chamber is already difficult to manage, and poor cold behavior is often simply the canary in the coal mine that something is not quite right.

For those of you with new vehicles experiencing the chatter, this does not apply at all. It may simply be that there was an unfortunate confluence of the engine's cold behavior that matches the drivetrain's sympathetic frequency and it was not designed out during the NVH stage of development

In either case, changing the engine's sympathetic frequency can be used to check this. I have done this before with prototypes and the like. It's a bit tough to manage unless you're mechanically inclined. Find where the drivetrain mounts are and see if there's opportunity to put wooden wedges alongside the rubber mounts to restrict drivetrain movement. If there is, be sure they're secured with duct tape or zip ties after tapping them in so they're restricting drive train movement. Then see if eliminating the engine's rubbery jiggling on clutch takeup the next morning changes things completely. Of course remove the wedges after the experiment, and expect to hear a bit of vibration and noise as the wood will transmit some that is normally isolated well by the rubber mounts.

If things go smoothly with the clutch on cold starts, you could check to see if there are stiffer mounts available that would change the drivetrain's sympathetic frequency. I'd suggest harder mounts directionally. If the same drivetrain is used in other vehicles, they will frequently be different rubber durometers (hardness measure) for each application.

I only offer this advice because I'm new here and sensed some frustration at what seems to be a chronic issue with no resolution. As a quicky in the old days, we used to use a chain to pull the mounts down snug to eliminate this drivetrain chatter. It's a common design achille's heel in the industry. In fact, if you've spent much time under cars and trucks you will often find what looks like a heavy steel weight simply bolted to the transmission. It has no particular function, you're thinking. This is called a harmonic stabilizer - a fancy term for a weight bolted onto the drive train to change it's mass and thus it's sympathetic resonance. Computer analysis told them where to put it and what it's weight should be to get rid of some annoying drivetrain wobble. Look under the right side of a new LandCruiser and you'll see such a device just inboard of the rocker panel.

Anyhow, my thoughts on the matter. Nice board by the way - hope someone addresses my question on the dash lights and cargo tie downs a couple pages back up. Juice - thanks for the input.

DougM

jfl

Welcome aboard. Fascinating write-up.

oclvframe

If you are an IMBA meamber and purchase a subaru, you can also get a free yakima roof rack.

Go to...

http://www.imba.com/tcc/subaru.html

for details.

-r

fibber2

Dynamite write-up. As an engineer, I appreciate your analysis of the problem, description of root cause & corrective action. Well done.

Fortunately, I have the 4eat, so one less thing to deal with...

Steve

rob999

Doug: Indeed, a fascinating analysis of the "clutch" problem. I guess this leads to another question - does anyone know if there are stiffer "performance" drivetrain mounts available that might favorably affect the sympathetic frequency?

On a completely different subject - when using a hydraulic floor jack on an OB, what are the optimal front and rear jacking points? Any place on the inner subframe "tubes"? I know the standard jacking points are clearly marked on the welded body seam for the scissors jack, but I don't really want the floor jack to bear on the vertical underbody seam and the plastic cladding. Any thoughts?

jfl

For a floor jack, it's a block of wood and front cross member or rear differential gear. This is the wording per the service manual.

But this doesn't help if I'm rotating tires front to back!?! 8~(

rob999

JFL - So for the rear, place the jack on the rear diff. unit itself (or the skid plate, if present)?

I was actually going to rotate tires, and was going to borrow an additional floor jack.

eric102

Great post. Always wondered what that big weight was for hanging off the bottom off my diesel PU tranny.

Eric

paisan

I found that you can't jack using a floor jack on the X-member at least not on the XT6. It doesn't allow the jack handle to go up and down

-mike

ffsteve

Thanks for the great description. While, as you say it might not apply to everyone, it is enlightening to learn yet another detail of the automotive design process. Like Fib, I also have an automatic so am ont affected. But that doesn't mean I'm not interested in the outcome.

Welcome aboard!

Steve

oclvframe

When I rotate the tires I use a single jack but I place jack stands (a total of 4) at the standard jacking points...that way I can have all 4 wheels off at the same time...this allows me to clean/wax the entire wheel.

-r

ateixeira

At $800 to $1500 under, I honestly don't know how they do it. Skip the VIP, and use the coupons if you have them. Time to buy, folks, if you want a 2002.

I rotate tires F<>R only, not side-to-side, and so I use a long piece of wood under the side sills, basically from one jacking point to the other. I place the wood against the sheet metal so it doesn't slip out, and the jack bites into the wood so it doesn't slip. This lifts both tires, no trace of damage, piece of cake.

-juice

jay_24

So the hesitation problem that some of us have with the automatic tranny might be the same as the 'clutch chatter' that the others have?

Would make sence to me.

Doug, Great write-up.

--Jay

kmclean

Doug - a very insightful analysis of the clutch chatter problem (I, too, have a MT OB - 2K - and have experienced the problem, although I consider it fairly nominal).

If I follow your thinking, isn't there another way to confirm the "cold engine" theory? Perhaps a simpler way for us non-engineers? Would it not suffice to allow the engine to warm up to normal operating temperature before engaging the clutch - purely for a confirmatory experiment, not as a normal operating technique (presumably first thing in the morning)? I've noted my OB usually is in the "normal" range within the first couple of miles of driving (at least this time of year), so I don't think it would take very long to warm up even if it's sitting there idling without moving. Thoughts?

Ken in Seattle

bkaiser1

Thanks, Doug. That's an interesting theory -- and I don't feel like you're just blowing smoke here. I suspect, though, that I may be one of the unlucky ones who just ended up with a bad apple. My car has exhibited this trait since it was new, so I'm not sure it is related to dirty/clogged anything. With nearly 30K on it now, I do feel like it's getting more common though. The first year, it was mostly a cold weather thing -- I don't recall having any problem with the clutch during the car's first summer (2001). Now as summer approaches, the problem seems to be worse than ever -- but not consistently enough for the dealer to authorize any warranty work. At this point, after 16 months with the car, I'm willing to buy ANY explanation for the shuddering; the trick is getting my DEALER to buy into it and fix the car. [sigh]. Doug, I hope that neither of the 2 new Subies you bought have a manual transmission! This car has ruined my aspirations for owning a WRX wagon...

Brian

hypov

Mark-
Try not to read too deep, it'll definitely confuse you.
A note: SoA sells the vehicles to the Dealership(s) @ Invoice. The Dealership(s) in turn sells to the consumers @ MSRP or less.
"For vehicle purchases, the price is further reduced by all applicable SOA regional dealer or customer incentives."
In order words, when such incentives are in effect, the invoice amount the Dealership has to pay SoA is reduced by the incentive(s) therefore, should be reduced and sold to Subaru VIP Program participants at new invoice.

Yet larger type at the bottom of the form states: "The special pricing under the VIP program is non-transferable and cannot be combined with any other SOA promotional offers or vouchers."
A good example of what is not eligible (cannot be combined with any other SoA promotional offers or vouchers) with the VIP Program "If you are an IMBA member and purchase a Subaru, you can also get a free yakima roof rack."
Non-Transferable means only you can take advantage of the program.
MBNA Subaru Points are not promotional offers or vouchers. They are benefits/incentives like the VIP Program.

-Dave

peterson10

Doug, I like that deductive logic, glad to have you aboard! I'm going to flog this horse's carcass one more time: It sounds to me like those of us with the vibro-clutch problem prefer a low rpm technique for take-off (at or near 1000 rpm), while those without the complaint use a medium-high rev technique (1500-2000 rpm). As an advocate of the latter, I'm curious as to why, as some suggest, higher rev take-offs would necessarily lead to premature clutch wear. I've always believed that the key was to get the clutch engaged quickly (whatever the rpms), without any unnecessary slipping (which requires some two-foot coordination). In otherwords, wouldn't a low rpm take-off with a greater amount of slip cause as much or more wear?

Doug, as to the cargo tiedowns, I'll take a deeper look at my OB. Those in the Forester are the real thing (big steel D-rings), but the OB comes with these little plastic tabs which are purely ornamental. There must be some place to attach a steel fastener/threaded insert/etc.

YetAnotherDave

storyteller

is a good reminder that some long posts are useful, despite their length. This one could't have been shorter without being superficial. Thanks, and welcome.

Steve

rob999

re: "This car has ruined my aspirations for owning a WRX wagon..."

Remember - WRX has a different engine, possibly different flywheel, trans ratios and motor mounts so dynamics may be quite different than the Legacy/Outback.

ateixeira

Also, the new Impreza has a different wheel hub/bearing design that isn't as succeptible to premature failure due to incorrect installation. One less thing to worry about.

I believe the 2003 Forester got that too.

Remember, Subies already rate highly with CR, so fixes and updates like these only make them better.

-juice

pica1

For whatever reason, Yakima isn't offering free bike racks anymore as part of the IMBA membership package. Earlier this year IMBA had a Web page that explained this; now, aside from a brief note on their Subaru VIP FAQ page, there's no mention of Yakima at all.

Mark

bkaiser1

Yeah, I know it's a different animal than my OB, but my hesitation to buy another Subaru is more out of bitterness than anything else. I don't like playing russian roulette with a purchase of this size, gambling on whether the car will be a dud or not. Having to deal with this for 30K miles -- and knowing that I'll likely be dealing with it at 130K when the car is paid for in a couple of years -- is not the most rewarding feeling in the world. It's too bad, because I REALLY love this car otherwise. Oh well, there's always an H6/auto combo...
Brian

idahodoug

Good point that a cold start issue might be hard to separate without an automatic. We autos can simply note that upon driving off with a cold engine there's a hesitation or flat spot (identified as a nonlinear response to the accelerator - the car pulls, then more throttle doesn't pull much, then more yet finally gets more pulling from the engine). The cold start issue might be easily isolated or identified on a manual the following way.

As soon as you can after starting a manual with a cold engine, engage the clutch as normal. But don't drive off as normal. Use the brake to slow the vehicle until it threatens to stall (probably in the 500rpm range), then pull away as though it were an automatic without touching the clutch. Don't bother going beyond about 2500 rpm as you won't easily discern any untoward engine behaviour anymore at or above that. Also don't bother with full throttle acceleration. Still without touching the clutch, pull the vehicle back to near stalling with the brakes and do it again. If you have enough road, you might be able to do this until the temp guage needle begins to move. Test is over at that point because that' s the indicator the thermostat's opening and the fuel injection system will move immediately out of the cold start loop into normal running mode.

If you manage to do a dozen or so of these pulls, you might find a throttle setting that exposes a bit of poor cold running behavior. Do some light throttle pull aways, some mid throttle, some mid-upper throttle application pull aways, but don't bother with full throttle.

If you manage this test with no bucking or hesitation then you don't have a cold start issue and can be satisfied. If you do get some recalcitrant behaviour (flat spots, etc), strongly consider the cleaning solution and other suggestions in my post.

Peterson10 - the amount of wear on the clutch has two main components when you're pulling away. The amount (duration) of slippage and the amount (force) of pressure between the clutch face and the flywheel while it's slipping. You are correct to minimize the duration, but also try to minimize the force while slipping. In other words, the worst wear occurs when you floor it and slip the clutch so that you have simultaneous high pressure as the clutch is slipping but the engine's power won't let it grab even though the pressure plate's trying.

Another thought on the clutch chattering issue. It would be useful to know if this happens in reverse on cold starts as well. The drive train's mounting system is focused on containing the twisting forces of an engine while the car's going forward. If you can NEVER get it to chatter in reverse, then it again points to the drivetrain mounting.

Were we having this discussion on one of the offroad boards (I'm an avid offroader) I'd suggest people examine their motor mounts - often a victim of hard core offroad forces while in low range (doubles the twisting force on the drivetrain's rubber mounts). But unless you drive hard, this would be extremely unusual on a road car less than 10 years old.

By the way, I just got word that one of the two used Subarus I bought does not need huge mechanical work. Sorry for the bandwidth, but this is an interesting story with a kicker at the end.

I ordered a Toyota Sequoia to replace my '99 Montero company car. Then my mother back in Michigan asked me to find her a suitable used car to replace her aging car. Knowing Subarus only by reputation I began looking at Legacy AWD wagons for her. Over the 6 weeks, I looked at some real junk but began to appreciate their design and durability because they all still ran well despite obvious abuse. Could not find a nice one.

On the same day, I suddenly located 2 super clean low mile non smoker private party Legacy AWD Wagons. I called her and she picked the one she wanted so I bought it. Driving home, it bothered me that I'd located the other one - a '97 with only 23k on the clock owned by a retired couple. Spontaneously, I drove over and bought it also and called the Toyota dealer to cancel my Sequoia.

So, got Mom's car home. Last Sunday I totally went through it even though it had only 49k on the clock - Mobil 1 oil, Mobil 1 in the diffs, new drive belts, plugs, air filter, coolant flush, thermostat, DieHard battery, Techron to clean the injectors,etc. She lives 2000 miles away and I wanted it to run for years with no issues.

Incredibly, the next morning I started it and it started puffing out white smoke into a cloud literally as big as a house. What the??? I took it for a cautious drive and it quit after a half mile. Whew ! Next morning, SAME cloud. It was not oil burning, not fuel burning, not the sweet smell of anti-freeze. Stopped when the car warmed up and the car ran like a dream the whole time. Finally, I gave up and brought it to a qualified indepentent Subaru mechanic yesterday.

This morning he called me and confirmed it had puffed a huge cloud of smoke on cold start. He was puzzled and suggested he run a cleaner through the injectors, then do a leak down to see if one of them was leaking all night and filling a cylinder with gas even though we both agreed the cloud did not look or smell like flooded engine.

An hour later he called me back and asked a puzzling question: "where did you fill this car up last?" Turns out he had 6 cars in the week before from a local gas station whose ground tank had been accidentally filled with diesel. I had not put gas in it yet, so I called the previous owner (he is a kindly gent - filled the car for me to pick up. I wish for the considerate behaviour of his generation to reappear in America....). Bingo - he filled up at that gas station on that day and had the receipt to prove it. I just got home from dropping the receipt at the gas station and they're paying to have the tank drained and for a full tank of new fuel.

Unbelievable! I was so bummed. I thought the car had inexplicably blown a head gasket after I flushed the cooling system or something even though it didn't have that sweet smell. Color me much relieved!!

IdahoDoug

mrk610

Just turned 10k miles on my 02 outback .Purchased 10/01 .Car has been great no problems other then cold startup engine knock. Which I haven't heard since the weather has gotten warmer here in South Jersey. Have the day off and I'm going to spend the whole day on the subie.

Mike k