Subaru Legacy/Outback

self_mechanic

Is there any difference between power split of front versus reel wheel for maual and auto transmission? According to the San Francisco Chronicle newspaper auto review, manual transmission gets 50/50 power split while automatic gets 90/10 power split between front and reel wheel. Is there any truth to that? I am just curious. Thanks for your response in advance.

A. Chee

paisan

MT: 50/50 initially, with up to about 90/10 and 10/90 when wheel slip occurs

AT: 80/20 initially, with up to about 50/50 split when wheel slip occures. The AT also uses weight sensors to determine which have more grip. Also it's electronic and learns your driving style so that it can anticipate slippage (for instance out of a stoplight) and put power to a different wheel based on that.

-mike

bkaiser1

Apparently you can add the Subaru tweeters to the doors [of a new OB] VERY easily because the wiring is already installed in the door, just pop off the panel and plug in the tweeters...and you can get them online at subaruparts.com or similar for about $75. That's way cheaper than you are likely to find aftermarket tweeters, plus you have to find a place to mount them. I replaced my stock door speakers with some Kenwood speakers from Crutchfield ($45/pair) and they do sound much better than stock, but the passenger door buzzes and rattles with any amount of bass (which is why I replaced the stock speakers to begin with). Still, for a $100 upgrade, I'm happy. Tweeters are next on my list.

kmclean

I had the tint job done at Auto Trim Design, 17219 Aurora N - right next to Carter Subaru on the south side. They do a lot of Subies there, so I figured that was a good place to go. I had the high performance (i.e., metallic) film installed that's called smoke tint, in the "factory style" - meaning the back 5.

Note to Steve V. - I agree that tinting can be over-done, but I've had no visibility problems in a location known for its long, dark winters - and I didn't get the front driver's or passenger's windows done for exactly that reason. Good tint film doesn't reduce outward visibility much at all. And my factory-installed stereo is there in plain sight for all to see through the untinted front windows. Some time I'll tell you how I won a new car because I had a stereo ripped off when I lived in Chicago.

Cheers and Merry Christmas!

Ken in Seattle

postmodern

Another newbie Outback owner checking in! I picked up a Timberline base 2002 OB AT with AWP, cargo net (really nice for small packages!), rear bumper cover and dealer added 6-CD changer and dog guard on Dec 12th. So far after 675 miles I'm definitely impressed!

Some background... I totaled my previous vehicle, a 1996 Taurus wagon with just over 90K miles, on Nov 29th, so research/shopping/delivery of a new car needed to be done quickly. I only started reading this board after putting the deposit down on the OB, so we definitely paid a little too much, but I'm happy with the deal (after all, I now have a Subie ;-). My previous 2 cars were both Taurus wagons (a 1990 and then the 1996). I was happy with them as far as comfort, size (room for a Labrador and a Lab/Husky mix, lots of family cargo, etc), fuel economy, reliability and SAFETY. You really appreciate a car's safety features when you can walk away from a 30+ MPH crash with only seatbelt bruising when you T-bone a 1976 Pontiac Catalina wagon! (The other driver had the stop sign and did't see me).

Number 1 on our short list of replacement vehicles was yet another Taurus wagon, along with Volvo (overpriced and snobby dealership), VW Passat (pricey and cargo space marginal for the dogs), Jeep Liberty (not crazy about SUVs), Dodge Caravan (ditto minivans), Chrysler PT Cruiser (my husband likes the retro look and he would take it over in 2003), and the base Subaru Outback (H6 is over budget). All but the Taurus and Outback were quickly eliminated. We already knew Taurus, but the Subarus were intriging for AWD in an affordable car and for fanatic owner loyalty. This is my 20th Winter reverse commuting to lower Dutchess County, NY from nothern Westchester on the Taconic Parkway, so AWD is a big plus. After reading several reviews I was concerned that the H4 OB with AT (my husband has foot problems) would be underpowered, but a good shot to the accelerator pedal while going up a hill during the test drive answered that question. (This is a family wagon after all, not a sports car.) After the Subie, the Taurus just felt mushy! Although the red is a nice color, after 2 successive red cars I opted for Timberline (only colors in stock).

I'm impatiently waiting for the end of the 1K break-in period so I can truly run the car through its paces on the Taconic's hills, but I've already experienced how well the car handles in rain, and a few trips on I-684/I-84 have shown how peppy this car is. Bring on the snow! Next winter I'll probably add studded Nokian Hakka 1's -- the Taconic can get very icy through Putnam county -- but I'd like 1 winter's experience with just AWD before doing this.

The only 'problem' with the car so far is some tappet noise under load when the car is cold, but this goes away within a few miles. Others on this board have mentioned the same noise so I'm not worried. There's been no brake squeal. (my 1971 Volvo taught me about disk brake squeal long ago!) Mileage over the first 2 tankfuls is about 22.5 MPG for a mix of local, Interstate, and hilly Taconic driving. This is about what the Taurus did for this mix, and the EPA ratings for both cars are similar. The 6-CD changer is a wonderous new toy, and the back windows are now full of doggie nose prints!

We've used Mobil 1 in all our vehicles since the late 70's so I'll probably switch at the 3K oil change, unless a convincing case can be made for waiting. Thanks for all the good info on this board!

Lyn

tidester

Welcome aboard Lyn and thanks for sharing your experience!

tidester
Host
SUVs

ateixeira

Congrats, Lyn, and welcome.

I had 35% SolarGard dyed window tint film installed on 7 windows for $170. It's not metallic, but hasn't faded after about 3 years, so I'm happy. It was installed at New Again in Silver Spring, MD.

35% is not that dark. Good enough to reduce the heat and give a little privacy, but 20% is significantly darker (5% is limo tint).

GAM2: what do you mean by 5/8" thick barstock? Is that a type of plywood? Pardon my ignorance, I'm just handy, not quite a handyman.

-juice

hondafriek

5/8 barstock is flat steel.

CheersPat.

ateixeira

Thanks Pat.

-juice

outback165

Lyn, congrats on your new Subaru. Sounds like you'll become one of the "fanatics" in short order! Signal- which Subaru dealership did you buy your Subaru from in Westchester? Love being in Syracuse this weekend and seeing all the Subarus handle the slippery roads!

Drove a front drive Chevy today -- miss my Subaru!!!!!!!

Pete.

c_hunter

Lyn and Signal, welcome! Lyn, you are right about the auto -- if you push it, it does fine. I have been a bit negative about the H4/auto combination, but you have to know how it drives (and I didn't until I got an H6/auto). If you don't engage the power mode by stomping on the gas, the car accelerates pretty leisurely (even with the H6). Engage the power mode, and it goes.

Alland and Mike (paisan): The auto's split is 90/10 to begin with, not 80/20. It seems to vary torque quite a bit in everyday driving. I have noticed the torque shift on acceleration off the line -- you can definitely feel the rearward bias.

Paul: definitely get the Subaru tweeter kit. The price is reasonable, the placement is about perfect, and they look good. It would be difficult to integrate aftermarket tweeters that well.

Craig

postmodern

Craig,

Whether it's manual or auto, one of the joys of a new car is learning about the power curve of the drivetrain. How else can you ever feel safe merging into traffic or making left turns? My rental car was a Saturn L200 -- a major reason it didn't make the short list was that it didn't respond when I kicked it at low speeds even though it was okay at higher speeds. Overall, it could best be described as just a car. The OB is so much more -- and fun to drive! Can you tell that I'm rapidly becoming a fanatic?

Lyn

oselles

Last evening we got our first snowfall and I was glad to try out my Outback (5 sp). I was not prepared though when I braked before a red light and the car hit a patch of ice and began to slide--fortunately I was able to turn the car right and avoid the car stopped infront of me.
I've learned the lesson that AWD doesn't mean you can avoid being careful in icy conditions! At the same time, would the car perfom better with snow tires (I have the Firestone ATs)--or is that over doing it?

thanks,

Otto

paisan

Snows would definitely help a little, but ice is ice is ice. Remeber AWD will help you get going, but doesn't help at all when stopping.

-mike

cptplt

definitely help, you will be surprised how much more secure the handlingand traction is. Some snow tires are better on ice than others eg Blizzaks but ice is ice and you will slide on ice! CR did a report maybe 2 or 3 years ago, with good snowtires they could stop their car in significantly less distance than with regular all seasons.

canadatwo

Nokian Hakka-1's with eco-studs.

last forever + great in snow/ice/slush

cons: noisy & expensive.

dzn

I will post this message on both Outback and Forester boards so I can get unbiased input. I am considering a used Outback or Forester. The Outbacks seem easier to come by and therefore seem to be priced a little more aggressively. If anyone has any opinion regarding this decision please let me hear it.
By the way I am seriously considering a 2001 Outback with 6,000 miles (options: as far as I can tell ....a CD, heated cloth seats(does that mean heated mirrors too?) and roof rack) for about $19,500. How does this price sound?

gam2

Juice: I used 5/8" thick steel barstock from work.
I drilled one hole for clearance at the existing location and tapped a 3/8-24 hole about an 1 inch apart (we had an english tap available). This raised the seat enough for me.

Otto: Just my 2 cents, snows will help, but they
are not the cure. I wish I could disconnect the
anti-lock brakes for driving in snow or ice. I know from previous experience that I can stop quicker without the ABS in snow or ice. Like you, the first time I needed to brake hard in an ABS car it scared the wee out of me. Same for driving on gravel. You can maintain directional control
but you can't stop as fast. Just for kicks, I tried an experiment in a snowy parking lot. I got
going about 15-20 mph and hit the brakes. The ABS kicked in and I came to a slow stop. I then went the same speed, engaged 1st gear and popped out the clutch. This effectively locked up all 4 wheels until the engine could catch up. I slowed MUCH quicker than with the ABS. No, I don't recommend doing this, but being an engineer type I had to try. Like I said, my 2 cents.

GAM2

paisan

Just yank the relay or fuse for ABS. This will turn them off.

-mike

mechanicruss1

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to All !

Russ & Hilda

c_hunter

Lyn: glad you're becoming a fanatic! Subarus will do that to you. Like Macintosh computers, this is one of the few products I know of that really makes customers into fanatics. And like Mac people, Subaru fanatics can get pretty zealous about their choice! So, enjoy the car and know you will fit right in here!

Otto and others: right, AWD won't do a lot for you on ice. 4 X traction still doesn't help when the traction is near zero to begin with!! Under braking, there is not a whole lot that will help other than good winter tires or studded tires.

GAM2: I agree that you will brake better without ABS in deep snow, and many vehicles give you the option of shutting of ABS for this very instance. In all other cases (especially ice), ABS is very hard to beat. Only the most skilled drivers can manage to beat ABS on dry pavement (using threshold braking), and it's almost impossible to beat ABS on wet pavement or ice. Snow yes, but not ice.

I have heard (on this forum) that the ABS will be disabled if you lift the parking brake lever up one click (so that the light comes on). I do not know if this has been verified, however. I have never tried it.

Finally, watch out for the 5-spd models in slippery conditions. I played with mine in the mud a year ago, and found that it got really tail happy when the going got slippery. It essentially behaved like a RWD car to me. If you're used to FWD (which plows in the snow), this will be a whole new experience. You get a whole lot more traction to begin with, but when you push the car into slipping the tail swings out first. With some practice, it's not an issue (and you can have some fun).

Craig

gam2

Snow AND gravel are bad for ABS. There is no doubt it helps in most other cases. As far as fun in the snow, give me an empty parking lot full of snow and I can have fun for hours (ask my wife).
Going backwards really can make doughnuts fun!
Happy holidays to all!
GAM2

paisan

Fun like this

http://isuzu-suvs.com/xt6snow.html

-mike

eric102

I don't know if 19,500 is a good price for a used 01, but I paid about 22,500 for a new 02 with the same options, except the CD. The heated mirrors and heated windshield come with the heated seats option. Roof rack is standard.

tompaine01

Hi, folks -- I am in the tail end of shopping for a 2002 car and have narrowed down my choices to the Forester S premium (S+), Outback Base and CR-V EX but am still struggling to decide which one to choose.

I have been following the posts on this message board and the ones for the other vehicles and thought I would ask for general impressions which you all might have about the three vehicles. I also have some specific questions.

Here are my basis requirements and specific questions:

I need to drive an automatic. (I currently own a '92 5-spd. Acura Integra and love it but need more space and can't get my wife to learn manual transmission). I need enough space for two small children with car seats in the back and a vehicle that will do well in the snow but don't need serious off-road capability. (We live in Colorado).

I am favoring Subarus generally and the Forester specifically because it appears that the Subarus have the best AWD systems among my narrowed choices. I like the Forester because of the sense of better visibility and the moonroof that comes with the premium package (but which the CR-V EX also has). What I don't like about the Forester is its less refined interior and its front seat cupholder location (over the radio and other controls) and the small rear seat room and cargo space compared to the other two.

I have driven both Subarus and seen but not driven the CR-V.

The big issue for me about the CR-V is that, according to my research, the AWD system really only works when the front wheel drive slips and there is no option for a limited slip rear differential. Otherwise, I like the look of the CR-V and it seems to have more room than the Forester and at least comparable room to the Outback.

My basic questions re: the CR-V are these: are these engineering differences in the drive train, etc. in reality, significant enough to favor the Subarus over the CR-V? Do folks see any other real disadvantages of the CR-V over the other two? (I read on one board that rear view visibility was an issue with the CR-V.)

Re: the Forester S+ my main concern is the rear seat space and cargo room. In the experience of others, will there be enough room to handle to small (but growing) kids? Do folks see any other real disadvantages of the Forester S+ in comparison to the Outback or the CR-V?

Re: the Outback Base -- are there any significant advantages, in your views, over the other two? Any significant disadvantages?

Finally, re: the Subarus -- both models seem to have enough standard equipment to suit me in the basic trim lines I am shopping. However, when I view the cars on the lots around here, they include a lot more options than I would like. Any hints on how to get the basic trim line with limited options? Would an internet site like carsdirect.com be the best way to go? (A sales rep for one of the dealers said that I would simply be referred to a dealer who would offer what's on the lot and would have to factory order the car if I wanted only limited options.)

Apologies for the length of this post. I have also posted it on the Forester board and will try to post it on a CR-V board as well.

Any replies would be greatly appreciated. Many thanks.

hondafriek

I seriously doubt than anyone can stop quicker on ice without abs than with it.

No matter how quick you are there is no way you can pump the brakes to prevent lockup than the computer can.

However the main point of abs is it allows you to steer while your hard on the brakes,therefore you can safely steer around an object you cannot do that when the brakes are locked up.

Cheers Pat.

c_hunter

I have shopped all three vehicles you mention. My experience with the CRV is limited to the previous generation, when I test drove 2000 models, but I will fill in the blanks with info I have learned about the newer model. By the way, I ended up with the base model Outback after considering the Outback, Forester, and CRV.

The CRV's AWD system is not as good as the one on Subaru's automatic models -- it only transfers torque aft when the fronts actually slip, and the response is a bit slow. In addition to reacting to slippage (quickly), the Subaru system can transfer torque proactively to avoid slip in the first place. That makes it among the most advanced systems around.

I agree with your assessment of the Forester's interior and room. It's what drove me into an Outback. No question, the Outback has much more space in the rear seat. As far as cargo, the Forester has a taller cargo area, but it is shorter by quite a bit. With the seats up, the Outback is probably better. With the rear seats down, it's more even, and the taller space in the Forester may give it the edge. What is better depends on your cargo needs, I guess.

I have heard that the newer CRV has better handling than the old one (which had horrible handling), but both the Outback and Forester will still run circles around it. To me, car-based handling and ride are the biggest benefits of Subarus over traditional SUVs. Even though the CRV is based on the Civic platform, it is very tall and the CG is up there. When I drove a 2000 model, it felt like it was going to tip over all the time, and the tires squealed at the slightest sporting move. Both the Forester and Outback handle very well.

Finally, I think the Outback has a better interior than the CRV, which has questionable fabrics and a plasticky "hose-out" look in my opinion.

To me, the most compelling thing about the base Outback is what you get for the price. It is one of the best bargains around. I didn't feel that way about the Forester or CRV.

I had a hard time finding a base Outback -- my local dealer only stocked well equipped Limited models. I had to drive about 50 miles to find a larger dealer, and they had plenty of base models. For a "baseline" check out www.fitzmall.com and look at their inventory and prices. Any good dealer ought to be able to match this.

Craig

paisan

Yep on Ice you can't really steer with the ABS engaged IMHO so with or without Ice you will have no stopping or turning power. But usually associated with ice is snow, and in snow, ABS does hinder your stopping ability IMHO.

-mike

rsholland

about the lower center of gravity with the Subarus boxer engine. It makes for a better handling car.

Bob

ateixeira

paisan: nice pics, love the ones where you can see both front and rear wheels tossing the white stuff up in the air!

And that full time AWD is key in places like Colorado, so that alone would put me in a Subie instead of the Honda. Also, Honda's 3/36 powertrain warranty is the shortest in the industry. I don't get why they don't stand behind their (usually reliable) products, it seems like it would cost them almost nothing to match Toyota and Subaru's 5/60 warranty.

Now, 2 kids? As much as I love my Forester, I will point you to the Outback. I have 1 kid and a nanny, plus a small dog, and we're pretty full for trips. The extra space would be welcome. We have a 2nd child on the way and I may buy an LL Bean Outback for the wife soon.

There is a curve ball in the equation, which is the 2003 Forester is coming very soon. Wait just a month and you'll know how big it'll be.

-juice

bkaiser1

Hi Ernie,
I've got an 01 Outback (base, 5sp, no options) and my girlfriend has an 01 CRV...we bought them the same weekend last year. They are both great cars, but I refused to buy an SUV and she refused to buy a wagon, so we got one of each! Comparing the 2 vehicles, there are high points (and lows) to each. First, the AWD: yeah, the CRV system is FWD until slip is detected, and, yes, it is a little slow to engage the rear wheels, but the system is very effective and has plowed through some seriously deep snows this year on unplowed logging roads. Plus, the CRV gets better gas mileage than my OB due, in part, to its part time AWD. The standard limited slip rear end on the Subies are a real plus in my opinion and one of the reasons I prefer the Subie's setup to the Honda's. Interior space in the Honda is simply amazing -- room front, rear, and cargo is gigantic for a "small" SUV. My OB feels positively cramped by comparison, and the Forester is smaller still. Handling-wise, I love driving my OB, but it certainly feels "heavy" to me compared to my Civic. Looking for sporty? Look elsewhere. The CRV handles well, even in emergency manuvers. It feels much lighter to me and responds quickly to the steering wheel. Sure, it's more top heavy than the 'roos, but it always feels secure. The 02 CRV will behave much the same and promises to be even more refined. What I do not like about the older CRV is the engine -- the car is reasonably quick, but you have to rev the bejeesus out of it, and it makes a droning noise at all engine speeds. The Subie motors are much, much nicer in this respect -- I love the low, growling sounds the 2.5 makes. The new CRV has a much better engine than before, and the power is comparable to the Subie's. Another CRV "minus" is the amount of road noise that penetrates the cabin -- it's much louder than Outback. For 02, I think the CRV's value is hard to beat: an EX with standard AWD, CD changer, moonroof, keyless entry, etc etc for less than my base Outback. Either one you choose, you will end up with a great automobile that promises to be trouble free for years to come.

c_hunter

Why the month wait for details on the Forester? Are we waiting for a particular auto show? I am kind of excited to see what it looks like -- everything I have heard says it's going to be more SUV than before, and about the same size as the Outback wagon. I bet they will offer the H6 too. Sounds like it will be a great vehicle.

Craig

otis123

Lyn,
Welcome! (Just catching up on the postings since last week.) Drove from Rt. 55 to Rt. 202/35 on winding Taconic last night at 70/75mph in my LLBean... Fun (especially the hill after Peekskill Hollow Road)! Can't wait for the first snow! You'll love it in the snow (not that you can drive 70/75mph, but you will drive with an unbelieveable sense of security)!
Ralph

gam2

I drove a '02 CRV. Nice vehicle but ugly both inside and out. My wife begged me not to consider one as she thought it was a girls car. Even the EX
lacks features availible on the the base Outback
(heated seats/mirrors/windshield, variable intermittent wipers, limited slip diff, etc.). You will also pay full list for the CRV while an Outback can be had around invoice. The Outback is a much more comfortable hi-way cruiser, quieter and less susceptible to cross winds. With the financing now availible, I bet your monthly payments would be less. Drive 'em both, then decide.

GAM2

hammersley

My kids are growing almost faster than I can keep them in shoes that fit... no way in the world they were going to fit in the Forester without loud complaint. We chose our Outback over a Forester - all other things being equal - and that was probably the #1 reason.

Hope everyone had a fabulous holiday - we sure did!

Cheers!
Paul

aprilg

O.k. I am looking for a car that is awsome in bad snowy conditions. Suburu Outback seems to be the way to go. What should I look for in a price, and pro's and con's? I am looking for a 2000 or a 2001. I am looking to sell my 1997 Dodge Intreped also. Anyone interested?

ateixeira

Patti was looking into exactly what auto show would have the 2003 Forester debut, so we'll see. Detroit is a lot sooner than NY. A couple of people who have heard rumors are very excited about it, but I can't confirm this.

April: look for year old models to lose about 10-15% of the original value, and two year olds to lose 20-25%. The powertain warranty is for 5 years/60k miles, so you still ought to have plenty of warranty left.

If you prefer new, consider a Legacy L. It has a little less equipment, but the price will be similar to a used Outback. Good luck.

-juice

revka

Please use Edmunds' Used PowerShopper, a free service that will enable you to sell your used vehicle. Also, please be aware that unauthorized advertising is not allowed in any of our Town Hall discussions. Thanks for your participation. ;-)

Revka
Host
Hatchbacks / Station Wagons / Women's Auto Center Boards

paisan

I don't think he expected a bunch of subiefiles to be interested in an intrepid! I was going to offer him $500 for it though!

-mike

99gs

I drove a '97 CRV for four years. It ran perfectly for four years. If I had driven a Subie when I origionally purchased the Honda, I would definitely gotten the Outback at any trim level. The newer CRV's may be better cars, but the difference between the two cars was huge. Aside from the engineering which by itself puts Subaru ahead, the overall driving and feel of the car is like a luxury car compared to the Honda. I was really taken by the Subaru when I drove it for the first time. MHO Jack

carseeker4

I have been seeking my real "muscle" car (not that I have the muscle, but the car does) to replace my faithful 96 Lumina. I started my search with the Subarus and liked them, but felt I might want a tad more ground clearance. So I looked at the Fazda Tribscape (reliablity problems as evidenced by the used Tribute sitting in the used car section of our Honda dealership!), the Saturn VUE (minivan like) and the CRV (still thinking). I'd like a 6, but the Outback 6 is rather pricey, so I test drove a 4 today and generally liked it (rough idle, though). My question is... how do these things do in the big snows? (Anyone from Buffalo?! ;-) ) Or in other inclement weather? Has anyone had them offroad (I know, not built for it, but I know there are some sneaks out there!)? How do they do? Is the extra inch or two ground clearance worth it on the CRV? And when can we see details on the new Forester? Thanks in advance for your input!
Ted

paisan

my cousin lives about 50 miles Northwest of Albany in the heart of the adirondack mountains. We generally get 5-10' of snow a year or more. She has a 2000 Outback 4-banger and loves it to death. She has never gotten stuck at all with it even in the deepest of snows. It just plows through the snow like it's on rails.

-mike

cptplt

my 98 GT which has less road clearance than the OBs has gotten me from Des Moines to Chicago twice in storms when they pulled all the plows off the freeway.(Please do not try this at home, professional suicidal idiot at controls!) That good enuff for those wondering how it does in snow? Off road is another matter, never tried that. They have a saying in MN, offroading with 4WD is just a way to get stuck twice as far from the main road! Have had Subes almost a decade now in MN and IL, nothing like it. Had an Audi before that, pain in the back end, things always going wrong.

outback165

Does anyone use a ski rack on their 96-99 OB? If so, is it the Subaru one? Does it have to be the Subaru rack, or has anyone had good luck with another model? My sister and brother in-law want one and don't know which one to buy.

Thanks.
Pete.

carseeker4

Thanks for the responses! I guess that takes
care of the SNOW question! I will probably
have to put the OB back on the wheel after
having in off the wheel for a few weeks...
Thanks again!
Ted

ateixeira

Pete: Subaru resells Yakima racks and accessories, so you could shop at, say, REI, instead of your dealer.

Ted: I had some cool pix of Dave Chen taking his Outback off road. The thing is you have to practice common sense, the driver is what matters most. He went on a trip with a 4Runner and another Outback, and guess who got stuck?

Luckily for that 4Runner driver, Dave was able to help pull him out of that pile of mud. He was also smart enough to drive around that obstacle.

-juice

signalk

Hi...I've been on vacation so this is the first time in several days I've gotten on the boards. Just wanted to address a few questions that came up since my post on price of my 2002 OB base 5-spd (at invoice).

The dealer....Curry Subaru, Rte 202 in Yorktown Heights, Westchester county. Since I dealt strictly with the "internet rep" (via Stoneage) and didn't even meet her until we agreed on a price, the negotiation was pretty painless. However, I had to sit through a 1/2 hour of the "finance guy" pitching all sorts of stuff, to which we said "no" and "are you done yet?" (trying not to be too rude, the guy was just doing his job). We also requested "NO dealer advertising on car" including plate frames, and Curry usually plasters their stuff all over the car, so we'll see when we pick it up Monday, 12/31.
As far as getting a car with no options (this one had only a cargo net) -- just ask! All dealers have access to other dealers' inventory, so if they don't have one in stock they can get one with exactly what you want (or don't want, as in my case). There were several I found in the NY area who had stripped-down versions.
Handling in snow....I used to live in Colorado, and have driven everything in snow and black ice from a RWD sports car (with studded tires) to a Jeep 5-speed to a front wheel drive Ford, etc. etc. It's my opinion...and only my opinion...that any 5-speed, even on a rear wheel drive car, helps in both snow and ice. I just don't trust AWD systems with an automatic as I've found them less responsive. Maybe I'm just a lousy driver, who knows....but that's been my experience.
Hope this helps.

gam2

My wife can't drive my 5-speed '00 Outback (medical conditions) so we drove a '01 automatic.
Every bit as nice as my 5-speed except the transmission. Here is a hint for Subaru, use your
partnership with GM and let them help you with programming your auto tranny. I was very dissapointed in the way the car performed with the automatic. It shifts out of first way to early under part throttle applications and is reluctant to downshift. GM may not build the best cars in the world, but their engine/tranny combinations are hard to beat. Subaru could learn
from them. A 5-speed automatic would sure be nice!

GAM@

subearu

is adaptive, so it would learn your driving habits over some time (not sure exactly how much driving it takes for it to do so). So, a fresh AT off of the lot would probably be conservative shifting until it gets some miles on it.

Our '00 OB AT downshifts with little throttle pressure. I do agree with you that it shifts early out of 1st. I believe some H6 owners notice this more (or at least I recall it being mentioned before here somewhere).

But, I digress. I sure wouldn't mind a 5 speed AT!

-Brian

taxman10

Anyone know where I can get info on that Fazda Tribscape ? I really want to test drive one myself; heard lotsa good things.