Subaru Outback VDC

dill6

I gather there were some teething problems w/ the VDC system - have these all been worked out now in the 2002s?

Just curious - Edmunds says they've added a switch for the system so you can turn it off - when and why would you want to do that?

Finally - what kind of mileage are you all getting in your VDCs after break-in?

Thanks for any replies!

ateixeira

I used to joke that my ideal house was a 3 car garage with a small apartment attached.

At least I have a garage at work and a car port at home. Time to close it in and make a garage? Maybe.

The VDC was pretty reliable from the get-go, and the only two common problems (brake squeel and tranny hesitation) seem to have been addressed already.

The off switch is for driving on gravel and sand, where you may need to spin the tires to get a little momentum going.

-juice

dill6

Think of all the great cars you could buy for what an ordinary house costs. Priorities...

Here's a stupid question: is the VDC worth the extra $2,400 over what the LLBean costs? I think I'm correct that the VDC system is the only significant difference between the two, no?

I checked the on-line inventory of our three Subie dealers here in Salt Lake and none of them have a VDC. Either its selling really well, or hardly at all.

smokeybaer

Does it really take about 15,000 miles for the engine to level out? My power did not feel anything near to 212 hp until just recently. Just about the 14,500 mi mark there was a dramatic power increase. Now I'd say that the 212 is about right. The mileage has gotten worse however. Just getting about 18 -19 in town, used to be about 21. Highway is about 23 - 24 and it used to be 25+. Guess the power is worth the mileage hit though.

Warren in Portland

dill6

If the engine is producing more power as a result of break-in, that is, moving parts wearing slightly so they move past each other more freely, thereby increasing efficiency - you'd think mileage would improve as well.

You sure its not just your right foot getting heavier?

evilizard

I'd go for the VDC over the bean. Is the system worth it? I think so. The only other real difference is the stereo system. Everything else is cosmetic.

nygreg

I have a question. From what I have been reading, the VDC does not engage much. This means that the standard AWD system with LSD does an excellent job on it's own. So is it really needed for the price?? Personally, I would love to have that peace of mind, especially for my wife and kids. It was just outside my price range when I was ready to buy. I hope to have VDC on my next Subie. But the question remains - if you drive conservatively (and correctly) in bad weather with good tires, do you need to spend the extra cash?

Greg

evilizard

If you drive correctly in bad weather will you need VDC? Probably not, the existing AWD system is actually quite good. The main time I imagine the VDC would come into play is on slick roads, poor visibility when you have to dodge something, especially if the driver is prone to over correct. Rather than flipping or spinning out your likely to remain in control.

The way that most traction control systems work is that they first make sure each wheel is getting the maxium traction it can and then overide driver inputs that would put the car out of control. Of course this won't break the laws of physics. If you have to do a 90 degree turn at 100mph to avoid going off a cliff its just not your day. On a "normal vehical" you would skid, roll and possibly go off the cliff sideways. On a TCS enabled vehical you will go off at about a 15 degree angle.

Depends on where you are and how you drive I suppose. My philosophy was to buy the safest car most reliable car I could afford. I got the VDC. But if I hadn't had the extra 2K on the down payment I would have gotten the Bean.

BTW the McIntosh and the extra sound insulation are nice...

dill6

extra sound insulation, eh? so the VDC is even quieter than other OBs? That'd be nice.

My use for VDC would be snow packed/icy winter conditions- does it excel at that? I read one review where the writer said he thought it would be a disadvantage in deep snow because it *wouldn't* let you spin the tires. Not sure what he was thinking there...does that make *any* sense??

luishl

This is my very first Subaru and the reason I bought it is because I needed an all around car but did not want an SUV. I live in Colorado and ski a lot in the winter and in the summer do plenty of outdoor activities. So far I have 7500+ miles on it and it seems that the power is really coming on now. But the thing that annoys me a bit is the handling. Ironically, driving on the interstate I can feel that the car "sways" and I don't know if this is because of the AWD system or the VDC or both. I also thought that maybe because OB's have raised suspensions or that the springs might be soft that this could also be the reason. Anybody out there with similar experiences with this car? Otherwise, I like it's interior styling and it's McIntosh Sound system.

paisan

Well you know even the VDC @ 100mph on the freeway will sway a little... :)j/k

In all seriousness, it is likely do to the softer sprung higher center of gravity of the VDC. Although it does seem kinda strange that there is a sway.

-mike

pdubois

Anyone knows how to reset the ECU on 2001 VDC? I disconnected the battery overnight but it did not seem to reset it. The car started on first try in the morning and the alarm system still remembered that I don't want to hear the beeps... (I am not sure whether the alarm is part of the ECU system or not, though).

With my 2K OB I would disconnect the battery for a couple of hours and then the car would be difficult to start on first try, indicating the ECU was reset (no user driving habits data).

Also, I read a few posts saying that they saw another VDC on the road. How do you recognize a VDC from a LLbean? My VDC only shows H6 3.0 on the back, no VDC indications.

Any VDC owners in Lower Mainland area in BC (Canada)? Just curious!

Thanks,

Pat.

pnwskier

Just picked up my 02 VDC after waiting 8 weeks for the order to come in. Initial impression - still grinning after putting in the garage a half hour ago. Thanks to all who posted here and steered me towards this car!

happyh6

If you are talking about the car not "tracking" and drifting off to one side or the other I had the same problem. I did have to go back to the dealer twice to get the alignment corrected and the wheels balanced. Solved the problem. As far as HP I did not get the 200+ until about 6000 miles. I then switched to 100% synthetic oil. I also started to see the mileage suffer but it turned out to be me having more fun than I used to. I tested this out by taking identical trips with the cruise on. My mileage actually improved. I have only had the VDC engage once and I really had to push the car to do this. I can put the car into a mild 4 wheel drift without it engaing. It will engage if you start a gentle turn and then make an abrupt and drastic change in the corner. If it comes on only once during an emergency then it has paid for itself.
Paul H.

revka

and congratulations on your new Subaru Outback VDC. We look forward to hearing more about your ownership experience. Happy Motoring! ;-)

Revka
Host
Hatchbacks / Station Wagons / Women's Auto Center Boards

paisan

The alarm may or may not get reset when the ecu is reset. If you left it off overnight, my guess is that it is reset. Don't forget, the H6 is a different engine than the H4s.

Paul, I'm curious how you knew you weren't making 200 hp before the breakin? Did you dyno it? Also I believe there are VDC badges on the VDC, on the back lift-gate.

-mike

dukephoto

On my 2001 VDC, the only place it is badged is a gold VDC between the front door and the wheel well on the front quarter panel. I believe that is where the Beans have the L.L.BEAN logo. There is nothing on the rear gate, other than an H6-3.0 badge under where it says OUTBACK.

ateixeira

VDC gives you the stereo, the VDC system, and don't forget, a 45/55 instead of a 90/10 AWD split. That means it feels more like RWD instead of FWD.

The Bean manages the rear axle with the mechanical viscous LSD, but the VDC manages both axles. So even if only a single tire gets traction, you can get going. Few cars can do that.

Then toss in stability control, to keep you out of trouble under any conditions. Is it worth it? Depends, I guess.

-juice

evilizard

From what I understand the extra sound insulation is so you can appreciate the stereo. The car is very quiet.

I don't quite understand the whole TCS supression on snow ice concept myself. Something about needing to spin your tires to get going at low speeds. Thats why the 02 has the VDC suppression switch. Only works at low speed.

TCS seems to mainly be intended for 40+MPH

kens

FWIW, my 98 Forester has never stumbled on startup after going through the whole "disconnecting the battery to reset the ECU' method.

The way I tell if the ECU is reset is to look at gas milage. When the ECU is reset, it will run rich until it starts learning your driving habits and then gradually leans out the mixture over the next few tanks. The sudden surge of power people sometimes experience after an ECU reset is probably due to this behavior.

Ken

theob

A simple understanding of physics discredits a reviewer that suggests that you should spin the wheels to get going on snow or ice. Total bunk. Rocking, maybe, but NOT spinning.

1. The static coefficient of friction is virtually always dramatically greater than the dynamic coefficient. I.e., a spinning wheel has LESS traction than a non-spinning wheel. (on the order of one over V squared with a discontinuity at V=0)

2. If you spin a wheel on any ice or snow, it melts the top layer, thus lubricating the contact surface and further lower the friction coefficient between the tire and the surface it is contacting.

The ideal maximum conversion of torque to forward (or reverse motion), i.e. acceleration, is when all four tires are at maximimum non-slipping (or spinning) torque or horizontal force.

The only use I see for the VDC-off switch is to play on the edge a little. A reminder: the VDC was the only AWD TCS auto that was not "accidentaly inserted" into snow banks by reviewers last winter.

The major VDC differences are:
1. VDC system (unique in the Subie line)
2. VTD (on VDC and WRX only)
3. 55/45% Rear/Front torque split, giving it a RWD feel (unique in Subie line) (Bean is like the Ltd)
4. McIntosh stereo (unique...)
5. Additional sound proofing required by McIntosh as part of the stereo installation done by McIntosh (unique...)
6. No LL Bean advertising
7. VDC badges on back side of front quarter panels.

HTH,
Theo in Colorado

dill6

Thank you for that - makes a lot of sense.

Its still a lot of dough for a Subie, but maybe pretty soon Subaru will lose the budget tag and people like me will look at the technology and the build quality and not the image! If the VDC were available with a manual trannie I might already have one. I like to row my own, even though that auto is supposed to be fine. Well, I need to go drive one - I've driven a Bean and a GT wagon/stick, but not the VDC.

Also, without wanting to spread it around, theres some pretty bitter stuff going on over at the other Sub.Wagon board about pinging? What's up w/that?

pdubois

Thanks for all the replies. The clarification about no stumbling at start-up and richer mixture makes sense. So, I did reset the ECU after all! Great.

As for the VDC badging I had missed the side badges completely, as I was expecting a rear badging. It shows I have not washed the car once yet, otherwise I would have noticed them!!!

Interestingly, I am finding that the timbergreen color does not show dirt as much as the dark blue OB I had before (and the dark blue was much better than the black Avalon I had before). I took the timbergreen as it was the only color available in stock. I was not too crazy about it at first but it grew on me and I now really like it.

Pat.

outback165

Pat

The first time I saw timberlinegreen I wasn't mad about it, but after I saw it a couple of times, I too grew to really like it. If I might be so bold, tint the windows -- the car looks SOOOOO sharp with charcoal windows!

-OB165

axmeat1

The manual mention there is a valet key, but I was only given two keys by the dealer, no valet key. Does the car come with a valet key or not?

bill_ca

You are definitely supposed to get 3 keys--I just bought mine, and had the difference explained, etc (bascially, the valet key can't open the glove box).

Re: is VDC worth it? I thought long and hard about this, drove the Bean and VDC multiple times, and bargined hard. Basically, I really think I can feel a difference between the drive of the two. The VDC has a 45/55 bias F/R, while the rest of the Legacy line is more like 90/10 F/R or something. The VDC feels more neutral to me--less annoying front wheel drive understeer on curvy roads. Maybe I'm more sensitive to this because my other car is a BMW...

Also, the sterer=o is truly awsome...my wife is not one to care much about such things, and she LOVES it!

Now, as to price...well, if you try hard, the difference is not too bad--I think I paid about a $1000 premium for the VDC (the dealer I bought from seems to have no trouble selling Beans, but lots of trouble selling VDCs, so I got a better deal on the VDC--under Invoice by a fair bit). The way I fugure it, the stereo is worth $500, so the VDC is for sure worth $500. We go skiing every year, and one avoided snow bank or fender and the thing pays for itself...

I agree with the previous poster about how to get the VDC to engage in the dry--I tested it before buying by entering a gentle curve at about 45 mph, then wiggling from side to side at speed--trying to get it to drift. The VDC engaged at what felt like way before the limit to stop me form skidding. It was actually a weird feeling--me stomping on the gas, and the car selectively braking one, then another wheel. The salesman was freaked out--he'd never felt the VDC engage--had him gripping the door handle...that was a fun prelude to negotiating!

Finally, color. I originally was not a fan of the Timberline--looked too "plain" to me..now, after a couple of weeks,Iit's relly growing on me..looks classy, doesn't show dirt. I am thinking of tinting, BTW--the Bay Area sun is bright!

bill_ca

I agree with the post re: friction, spinning, etc. Yet, Subaru claims the VDC off switch does help when getting started from a stop in deep snow or mud (part of the reason for the speed cutoff). My guess is that it's not that you WANT to spin a wheel to get started (of course you don't), but rather that the VDC kicks in so early that if you have all 4 wheels with little or no traction, the system would prevent you from even having a chance to get going-once the turn rate got even a littel high, it would brake any wheel). My guess is that's the only circumstance--if even one wheel was dry and had good traction, the power would simply go to that wheel. But if all were wet, the system might brake all for wheels and you'd never have a chance to try before calling AAA.

tos

So do I go buy a 2001 VDC now or wait until November hits with all new incentives? I expect the dealer to still have some as they took the liberty to order them with every silly option you can get and they had four left a week ago. Am I a fool to wait?

So what is the real price differential between the 2001 and the 2002 VDC? If I trade in both cars 3-4 years from now the 2002 will have a higher trade-in value. Does that wipe out any difference I'd be getting by buying the cheaper car now?

One other question. Would you rather buy a car sitting on the lot untouched for months or a car sitting on the showroom floor?

My parents are buying a 2001 Volvo XC this weekend with a $3000 incentive this month. They have a rough driveway, I hope it makes it up.

tos

Well, to attempt to answer one of my questions I priced out the trade-in value on my Outback Limited as a 1998 and as if it were a 1999 and came up with a $1070 difference. To me that means the 2001 must be at least $1200 less than a 2002 to be worth considering. I don't know how to gage the amount of damage a car might have received after being left unstarted on a lot for 9 months, nor can I estimate what the incidental damage of a car being on the showroom floor might be; but in both cases it's probably greater than zero. Call it a $1500 difference in value and I don't have to 'order' the stupid add-ons they put in.

paisan

Juice, the LL Bean doesn't have a mechanical viscous coupled AWD system. The LL Bean has an electronically controlled clutch-like system and it's std power split is 80/20. I agree the VDC is much better though.

-mike

kens

Mike,

I think juice was refering to the rear limited slip diffy in the Bean. The VDC has open diffys on both ends because the VDC system can apply the breaks independently on any one tire.

Ken

pdubois

The windows were already tinted in the model I bought. Not as dark as I would have wanted but still very nice.

hypov

Silly isn't it. No one can get to the glove compartment, but in the meantime help yourself to the rest of the wagon. ;-D

-Dave

ateixeira

Thanks, Ken, for clarying for me. :-)

2001 or 2002? If you can wait, get a 2002 once the rebates arrive for that model. I bet it'll only take a month or two (just a guess, no guarantee).

The stupid CEL is on once again in our 626. I'm going to change the O2 sensor and maybe ask the dealer to check the codes, but this is getting tiring. If the VDC sedan gets a rebate soon, I'll have to get the wife to check one out.

-juice

dill6

the 'conventional wisdom' on buying year-end vs. next year's model is: if you're keeping the car for most of its useful life, save the money and buy the year-end model. If you'll be keeping it 5 or 6 years or less the savings are not worth the lower resale value.

pnwskier

My 02 VDC came with a light window tint as a standard feature. Any information out there on the amount of UV protection this provides? I'm considering doing an after market tint in order to help preserve the interior. Of course I'd like to avoid this if the standard tint is already providing some protection.

Alan

ateixeira

Very little, I bet. Pretty much all car windows have at least some tint, but I imagine the amount is tiny.

Tints are stated in the amount of light that passes. So a 35% tint is basic, 20% pretty dark, and 5% limo black. I'd guess the windows on a Chrysler minivan are about 30% (since they are a little darker than my 35% tint), but the windows on the Subie are about 75%.

Good question for SoA, though. Patti - you have any idea?

-juice

pnwskier

Here's some info from SOA on the factory window tinting:

All Subaru vehicles have UV tinted glass. Here are the percentages:

All models windshield glass: 0% UV penetration

Legacy & Outback models:

Sunroof: 0% UV penetration
Front door glass: 29% UV penetration
Side windows: 10% UV penetration
Rear gate: 10% UV penetration

Feel better knowing that there is a signficant amount of UV protection even though the windows aren't all that dark.

Alan

ateixeira

Sounds like they're blocking ultra-violet light but not visible light. Too bad, I think it would be a useful factory option.

-juice

llbean30

Hi all, I'm a new member to this board,although I've been reading it since I got my new 01 LL BEAN in june of 01.I also tested the VDC back then , but the choice was made for me when my wife said it was the two tone LL BEAN interior or nothing.They both felt the same to me anyway so I really didn't care.The car came with the upgrade cd changer and subwoofer, and cargo net.I paid 27843.00 +tax,and tags.(seemed like a good deal).The dealer also promised to sell to me a gate bar and rear spoiler at his cost. (He never fulfilled that promise , quoted me one price and when the time came to sell it to me the price was higher).The car was delivered in poor condition to me .It was at night , and I didn't look to closely (my mistake).The interior was dirty and also had a small cut on the face of the rear armrest. The exterior still had the adhesive tape marks on it and one wheel had an imperfection in the paint.I have installed the gate bar and the rear spoiler(got them from liberty toyota, great prices, and did the work myself.)Have had the windows(rear doors and tailgate)20%tinted(great improvement).Had an allignment and rebalancing of the wheels(had slight shimmy at 68 mph right from the factory), now smooth as silk at any speed,actually have grown to like the firestones.
Have the brake squeak backing out of the garage after 4 hours or more.Also feel that the trans needs to be programmed to shift at a slightly higher speed on normal driving.(Feels like a lag at 11 mph when it upshifts at normal throttle.)
Been getting 21 mpg city and had a 28 mpg tankful solid road driving.Used a half dozen tanks of regular , the only difference was about 1/2 mpg less on reg,the power felt the same.Took the car into a different dealer(not the one I bought the car from,won't go back to someone who doesn't keep his promises) for the 3 mo. checkup , he had ordered a wheel to replace the imperfect one,the new one was also scratched,I still have the old one(don't care at this point.
The car has a lot of nice things about it and I really enjoy it, don't know if I'd buy another though,the dealers are not first rate, and the quality control seems a bit poor.
Sorry for the long post
Luck to all-jack

tidester

Welcome to the board! We hope you become a regular!

tidester
Host
SUVs

ateixeira

Jack: sounds like that original dealer fell asleep during the pre-delivery inspection.

Remember you have a one year adjustment period. Get those minor issues fixed now, while it's free, and before they become long-term problems.

-juice

popgun

Would like to participate in this board more frequently but have had no negative experiences to share after 1500 trouble free miles. The VDC was clean, waxed and free of any complaints when I picked it up. I've looked hard for something that was not as it should be since then but found nothing so far. We love driving it for the smooth ride, wonderful sound system and great gas mileage, both regular and premium. We still look back at it admireingly when we park it and yeah, I'm still grining.

tidester

Would like to participate in this board more frequently ...

We'd like that too! Positive, negative, personal experiences, technical ... anything will do!

tidester
Host
SUVs

doppelbike

Does anyone know about the side-to-side
traction characteristics of the VDC.

in the old days we used to talk about
positraction, which would distribute at
least some torque to all drive wheels, in
the even that one wheel was spinning.

If the VDC is in a high-center situation,
how many wheels will spin? If one wheel
is in a good traction situation, is there any
way to apply torque to it?

DB

popgun

When I picked up my VDC I was given an owners manual for the "Outback". It was packaged in a tan plastic cover that was imprinted with "LL Bean" but no reference to VDC on the cover. I was concerned at the time that I had been given the wrong owners manual but have since discovered the Outback manual does cover features relative to the VDC model as well as others. My question to you VDC buyers is; did you get the same cover as I did or is there one specific to the VDC? Just curious.....

popgun near the CA/OR border

paisan

DB,
on the VDC it's electronically controlled system. If it detects that only 1 wheel has traction, the brakes will be applied to the other 3 and thus diverting more power to that 1 wheel that is stuck. The use of brakes on the VDC mimicks what us older folks know as rear LSD or Posi-traction. Also on the vdc I believe it will also cut engine power in certain situations as well.

-mike

mikenk

Mine says legacy; I think the plastic cover is like a box of chocolates. I am sure all the manuals are the same.

BTW, at 7000 miles, my mixed gas mileage is now averaging 22mpg and I think my overall performance keeps improving (running all synthetics). Regardless, car is doing great with no problems, except for the "early morning back up brake squeek" syndrome, which really doesn't bother anybody except for my dogs.

Mike

crawdadking

We have an 01 Bean with 11k and couldn't be happier. The morning brake squeak was annoying so as soon as I heard about the fix I contacted the dealer and made an appointment to have it installed. It took about 1 1/2 hours to install. I suspect most of that time was to resurface the rotors (which I didn't really want done but it was part of the fix). I'm pleased to report not a sound since the fix. Didn't realize how nice silence sounds. I guess this fix is only for the 01 models (not sure about that) but it is available so all dealers probably have it by now and it's installed at no cost.

BTW checked the gas mileage last week and got 23.5mpg mixed driving (no interstate). I also tried regular gas a while back and didn't see any difference in performance but am still using premium. Can't convice myself that it doesn't make any difference. Am also now using Mobil 1 but will still change at 3k. Old habits die hard.

Guy

tos

Just found out the 2.9% is extended through the rest of the year:

http://www.cars.com/carsapp/detnews/? srv=parser&act=display&tf=/features/incentives/makes/incentives_subaru.tmpl

I had to cut the above link into two parts due to a board limitation so you will have to manually paste the URL.

My '98 Ouback has a broken glass plate in the back where it says Subaru. The dealer wants a silly $300 for it. Any idea where I could get one cheap?