Subaru Outback VDC

oclvframe

My Bean has tweeters mounted in the rear most pillars of the cargo area...sound should be same front to back, but, maybe they cut power as well as the fade so as to not blow the rear speakers.

-r

theob

I noticed the same behavior on our 01 VDC.
Theo in Colorado

dukephoto

Thanks! Theo

I was hoping to hear that from another VDC owner (I appreciate the responses from the Beaners as well).

Have you seen another VDC on the road yet? I know I haven't.

Dukephoto in WV

llbean30

Been reading some past posts on the virtues of the VDC versus the LSD, and in all the posts I don't think I actually heard the proper explanation (at the risk of being jumped on), so here's my take on the subject. The VDC does not have a LSD because it uses the brakes to send power to the wheel that has the grip on all four corners. Whereas, the LSD works on the rear axle to try to send power to whatever wheels can grip, or possibly both if grip is minimal. Either system will work well, the Bean versus the VDC. But, if the VDC were in a snow or ice situation where there was no or very minimal traction to all four wheels, the system would hunt around trying to find a wheel with grip, constantly cutting power to the engine, and, if it were a slight uphill, it is possible that you could be sitting there and not be able to get up the hill. Hence the need for the off switch in the 02 VDC. Now I've heard it said that the Bean has an 80/20 torque split and therefore feels like a front driver. That's not entirely true either. In fact, the Bean, up until it shifts into third gear, has basically a 50/50 torque split and goes to an 80/20 or 90/10 third gear and beyond, so that on acceleration, you have a 50/50 torque split with a limited slip disk differential in the rear so that on ice or snow with minimal or no traction, you could see a situation where all the wheels would try to move the car, even in a light uphill situation, and probably would achieve it. Hope I didn't step on anybody's toes, but that's how I understand it from many different sources that understand the engineering of it all.

Best of luck to everybody.
Jack

popgun

I have a NEW 2001 Subaru VDC in pearl white and I'm wondering if it has a clearcoat over the paint? The waxed finish is very good but I've never asked anyone about clearcoating on these wagons. I'm planning to look into the Zaino finish products and need to know.
Doug near CA/OR border

tauyeung

Hello, all! My wife and I already own two Legacy L wagons, but a late experience makes me consider trading one (my wife's AT) in for a VDC. I was driving at 35mph or so on wet paved road when a car on a left-turn lane decided to pull in suddenly. My instinct kicked in and quickly turn to avoid the collision, but I turned back too quickly and the rear lost traction. The "fish tail" waved about three times before I got it back under control.

I am very worried that if the same thing happens to my wife she won't be able to get control back. She is currently driving a Legacy L wagon (AT, which splits power 90/10 normally).

Any comments or suggestions are most welcome!

--Tak

pattim3

What year is the Subaru? How many miles on the tires? I'm curious.

Patti

tauyeung

Mine is a 2001 Legacy L with 13,000 miles on the original tires. It's a stick shift (50/50 split to begin with). I don't think the tires are bad just yet because they have never lost grip until the near-accident.

--Tak

hunter001

Actually, the LLBean Version of the Outback with the H6 3.0, has an AWD system that is the exact same one as all other Auto Subarus (excluding the VDC and the Auto-WRX). The normal power split (except when more is needed front or back) is 90/10. The 50/50 lock is only in the first gear and gets released once the speed reaches 10mph or so.

The VDC Outback has a completely different and superior AWD system, which drives with a 45/55 split front/back in normal driving, unless more is needed front or back. In addition to various other things, it also has an incredibly sturdy true planetary gear center differential. It transfers power side-to-side with brake application, which works along with the speed sensors of the ABS system. The lack of an LSD is a weakness, from my perspective.

Incidentally, the Auto-WRX has the same VTD-AWD system as the VDC Outback and is equipped with a rear-LSD (like the LL Bean), which in my estimation is definitely better than the set-up in the VDC Outback. It has the superior AWD system of the VDC Outback and a rear-LSD (which according to me is better than the brake-application set-up of the VDC). The best of both worlds !!!

Later...AH

paisan

According to the engineers patti spoke to it's 80/20 not 90/10 split initially on the non VTD/VDC equipped 4EAT cars.

The VDC is superior than the WRX auto-trans for 95% of the drivers 90% of the time due to the skid control. The WRX AT doesn't have skid control, and the LSD will only come into effect in a situation where you are already stuck in a rut, heck you might even need to apply the parking brake slightly to get the rear LSD to engage.

-mike

eddiebaby

Hello all. First time here but love what I see so far. I just drove an 01 VDC at the dealer (didn't have any 02's) with 11,000 miles on it. It was awesome! But the salesman tells me he wouldn't spend the money on it and that the Bean is just as good. So I think maybe he's right and I take an '02 Bean out with 10 miles on it. I could tell right away that it was more FWD but here's the kicker - I step on it out of the lot and it just sits there hesitating. I pump the gas and it still won't go. A block or so later I stop and start out again and the same thing - no go. Anyone else experience this? Is it just too new?

Even though I think the VDC may not really be needed and an LSD would have been a better idea, I still think the 45-55 is a better drive than the 90-10 Bean and thus worth it. I drove the Passat wagon 4-motion and thought that was pretty nice and I think the VDC was very close to it.

But the weird thing was how the salesman actually said forget the VDC. In fact he insinuated that it might not even be around in the future because people aren't willing to pay for it. Anyone get this kind of treatment? Thanks for wading through all this!

Ed

tauyeung

Unlike the salesman Ed encountered, I think it is the Bean that should be canceled. Luxury-minded shoppers won't mind the difference between a Bean and a VDC, budget-minded shoppers will probably go for the Legacy L or base Outback. The Bean cannot compete with the WRX when it comes to performance, either.

What I want to see is a VDC option for the 2.5L engine. Forget the dual-moonroof, leather, and climate control, just gimme VDC on a base Legacy L!

--Tak

hunter001

My understanding of the LSD means that it is working 100 percent of the time, regardless of whether you are skidding or not. The LSD enables one to carry speed further into a corner and power out of it at a higher speed, due to its very nature. Unlike an open differential (which is partially compensated for by the VDC) that shifts power to the wheel with less grip, (through the path of least resistance), the LSD enables the biasing of power to the wheel with the better grip. The LSD does this continuously, without the user knowing about it. In a straight line, the LSD ensures a near ideal 50/50 split of power to both the wheels (on the axle equipped with the LSD), resulting in twice the grip of an open differential. In cornering, while accelerating out of a turn, the LSD biases power to the outside wheel, reducing inside-wheel spin. This allows the driver to begin accelerating earlier, exiting the corner at a higher speed. The VDC also strives to acheive the same through detection of slipping wheels through inputs from its speed sensors and applying brakes thus effectively transferring power to the side with better grip.

Of course, a skid control is pretty good to have around, especially if the driver is not very skilled and does adventurous moves with the car in adverse conditions. In fact, in cars like the Acura TL-s, which is equipped with the skid control (VSA in Acura-speak), people simply disconnect it, while they would give an arm and a leg to get a Limited slip device, in its place.

Later...AH

paisan

AH, sorry but an LSD doesn't work in the mannder you describe. It is a reactionary (and relatively slow reaction at that) device. If you have a car with an LSD, just go to a sand area (with a friend) or an icy parking lot or snowy one and test it out for yourself. You'll see that you'll spin on rear wheel with an LSD occassionally the other wheel will kick in and help, or if you crank on the e-brake 1 or 2 clicks the other wheel will kick in. An LSD definitely DOES NOT provide a 50/50 torque split between the rear wheels. That would be a rear locker, not a *limited* slip. The Limited part of LSD is quite apparent when you get down to it. Otherwise every time you made a turn on dry pavement your rear end would be binding since each 1/2 shaft would appear to be slipping to the LSD.

-mike

hunter001

Yes, the Viscous LSD is definitely slower (reactive) than clutch-based or torque sensing LSD systems. But the 50/50 split on the rear wheels occur only in a straight line, due to the LSD not having any slip happening. So the torque-biasing is equal on both the wheels.

Later...AH

paisan

Nope, on dry pavement you are not going to have a 50/50 split on either the viscous or clutch packed (I have both the viscous on a subie and the clutch type on my trooper) On dry pavement since there is no slip all your power will be going to one wheel or the other. In a non lsd car, once you get a wheel spinning, the diffy will not switch the power to the opposite wheel, you'll just keep spinning that one. With an LIMITED slip diffy, the diffy will be able to alternate the power to the opposite wheel, which will likely have more grip, and during the transisiton both wheels will have power. I've seen em in action on sand and snow, both the subie and the troopers LSDs act similarly and it's not the 50/50 split you speak of, theory is one thing, actual live tests with my own 2 eyes speak louder IMHO than any theories.

-mike

hunter001

My understanding is that the LSD works on the basis of slip happening and then compensating for it. In a straight line, there is no slip happening, which should result in a 50/50 split right ? In the curves, 50/50 is not appropriate, which the LSD compensates for, by biasing the power to the wheel with grip.

Later...AH

dukephoto

When I was shopping for my Subie, the first 6 cylinder I drove was a Bean (I hadn't considered getting a VDC yet). The salesman also said that if I was a "good" driver, the vdc wasn't really needed.
However the more research I did, the more the VDC looked like a good idea (even if it only came on once the entire time I had the car, that extra safety factor would be worth it, especially if I had my daughter in the car at the time).
When I went back to the dealer to price the VDC, his story mysteriously changed and he sang the praises of the VDC system over the regular AWD in the Bean. I guess whatever it takes to move the car off the lot.......

DUKEPHOTO IN WV (LOVING HIS VDC)

hunter001

Yup ! The dealer's judge the customer's purchasing power or gear preferences (manual/automatic) and modify their sales pitch accordingly. In your case, he misjudged you and thought that you may be un-willing to pay the extra money for the VDC, until you stated it up-front that you wanted it, when he dramatically altered his sales pitch and was all for the VDC.

Incidentally, the dealer salespeople have absolutely no clue, whatsoever, about the technical features of what they are selling (with a few rare exceptions).

Later...AH

llbean30

It does seem as though I've opened this can of worms again, and there is still a lot of misunderstanding about it. It was not my intention to say that the VDC was better than the Bean or vice versa, as I think each driver, according to his individual circumstances, will determine that for himself, but merely to explain it as best as I understand it. The LLBean may be the same as all other automatic Subarus (except the VDC and the auto WRX) and the normal power split, except when more is needed, may be the 90/10 or 80/20 depending on slippage, but it is totally my understanding from mechanics that work on these sytems (especially transmission mechanics) and the explanation given in the shop manual, that when starting out from stop, you have basically a 50/50 torque split front to rear until the trans shifts into THIRD gear, not second at 10 mph, and it is when it shifts into third gear that the clutch pack in the tail section of the trans cuts out and allows it to go to the 80/20 90/10 split. Therefore, giving you a neutral bias up until mostly highway speeds, as intended.

The LSD contains a clutch pack which allows the power to go from the wheel that slips to the wheel that grips (as Subaru says). It does this when it feels that one wheel is in fact slipping. It has a pre-set pressure point that determines at what amount of slip this will occur. Hence, when there is no slippage, only one rear wheel would be powered. When in turns, depending on the speed and conditions, you definitely could have power to both rear wheels.

As far as the VDC system being superior in all aspects, I know of one that it wouldn't be for sure. I've seen this on Mercedes Benz M Class sport utes which have basically the same system as the VDC. There were many complaints from customers who bought this M Class vehicle because of the commercials that showed three wheels off the ground and one wheel basically moving the vehicle quite handilly (which it does), but put it on ice or snow, add a little bit of an incline (such as your driveway), and many customers found they couldn't get up their driveways. And I reiterate, that is probably why Subaru felt the need to add an off switch to the VDC system, for situations of that nature.

Best of luck to all.
Jack

teslamania

Do these two systems work the same way? Audi has a locking torsen differential (what ever the heck that is!)

kullenberg

I normally just lurk on this board, as I no longer own a Subie, but am still interested. I've followed the discussion on the merits of the 2,6 cyl drivetrains, with interest. Jack's previous post was accurate in most respects except as to the traits of the M Class MB. Even here he is accurate, in as far as he goes; however what wasn't said was that if you turn off the ESP switch (MB speak for the stability system)you eliminate the power reduction feature, and the M Class will go up a snowy or icy driveway just fine. I know this to be true as I have a ML 430 in the mtns of NC and my gravel driveway is about 17% grade, and it goes up just fine with the ESP off. It still brakes the spinning wheel, which transfers torque, but it doesn't cut back the engine power.
Another type of diff. which hasn't been mentioned, is one that will do what most people really want; and that's the Torsen diff, that Audi used on the quatro systems. It senses where the torque was being applied ( the non spinning wheel) and feeds the power to it. The major drawback here was expense. Jeep's Quadradrive system, which uses gerotor pumps to sense wheel speed diferential, and provide variable locking front to rear and side to side, seems to be the best current solution.
Cheers
Pat in NC

hunter001

As far as the VDC system being superior in all aspects, I know of one that it wouldn't be for sure. I've seen this on Mercedes Benz M Class sport utes which have basically the same system as the VDC.

Unlike the VDC, there is an important component missing in the Mercedes M-class - the torsen center differential - unlike the true torque-sensing (torsen) planetary gear center differential present in the VDC Outback and Auto-WRX. This torque sensing center differential is not present in the LL Bean AWD system. Hence it is cheaper. The center differential in the M-class does not have torque sensing or limited slip capabilities, which compromises the system and places too much of a dependence on the braking system under unduly stressful conditions. In my opinion, Mercedes took cost cutting to extremes, when it came to engineering the M-class's AWD system, even though it performs well enough in pretty much all driving conditions.

The VDC AWD system and the AWD system present in the other Auto-Subarus are both built by Subaru. The VTD-AWD equipped Subarus (VDC Outback and Auto-WRX) cost 1000s of dollars more than the regular Auto-Subaru AWD system (eg.the one present in the LL Bean) due to a reason. And when you analyse it, the reason is pretty obvious (lack of a torque sensing center planetary gear differential in the LL Bean). But I do feel, that the system in the Auto-WRX (where there is no stress on the brakes due to absence of VDC) is the most ideal one, especially since it is coupled with the superior VTD-AWD system of the VDC Outback and the LSD present in the LL Bean Outback (the LSD is not present in the VDC Outback).

Later...AH

eddiebaby

Thanks for all your responses. There's definitely some good insight on this board. You may be right about the salesman thinking hey, I've got a Bean here so just sell him that (since we don't have and VDC's). But my concern is will the VDC be around? I don't want technology that's going to dissappear in a few years. Does anyone know if Subaru is committed to it? Does the 'Ask the Subuaru Crew' work? i.e. should I ask them?

Thanks, Ed

gshean

A little late, but better than never. If you have not already investigated the cig lighter adapter for your phone, you should do so. After upgrading cell phones, I noticed that although the phone brand was the same, the model difference required a different adapter. I was hard pressed to find any sales people that believed me, each trying to sell me a knock-off version with a higher markup. (Nokia 5100 requires LCH-8, and Nokia 3360 requires LCH-9) You may also want to get the phone looked at if it still doesn't work. As for the Subaru cig lighter in my VDC, it works great.

gjs

pattim3

we are very committed to the technology in the VDC. I'm sure it will be around for a LONG time and probably incorporated into more models as time goes on. You can quote me to your salesperson and direct him/her to me if he/she has more questions.

Thanks!

Patti

pattim3

Thanks for the information. It sounds like a combination of things may have caused the slide out, but without being there, it's hard to say. It doesn't sound tire related though.

Patti

ateixeira

The A4 Quattro/ESP is similar to the Subaru AWD/VDC because both systems let the AWD act first, and only then use the brakes to control wheel spin, effectively managing both axles.

The difference is that the A4's systems is mechanical, while the Subaru's uses ECU brainpower and can in theory be more proactive.

In practice, both systems will offer excellent traction. The A4 will lose in the snow only because it doesn't come close to the ground clearance offered by the Outback.

-juice

teslamania

for the info!

pnwskier

Just put on my winter tires along with new steel wheels and am experiencing some minor shimmy at highway speed. Discovered that the offset on the steelies is 42mm while the stock wheel is 48mm. I suspect that this is the cause of the shimmy since the tires are new and freshly balanced. How critical is the wheel offset and should I be concerned about the 6mm difference?

Thanks
Alan

ateixeira

A smaller offset puts the wheels farther out, so clearance is not a problem (for brakes, spring base, stuff like that).

Though I'm surprised the tire store sold you wheels with a different offset, given winter tires are not any wider or taller. That's probably all they had in stock or available.

6mm is almost nothing, though, it's just 0.236 inches, or a little under 1/4".

If it gets bad, I would go back and ask for wheels with a correct offset. If it's minor, I would just keep speeds down, since winter tires have aggressive tread and are noisier and less performance-oriented anyway.

Just my 2 cents' worth.

-juice

paisan

It's not entirely out of the question that they mis-balanced the wheel? Just a thought, it wouldn't be the first mis-balanced wheel.

-mike

pnwskier

Just got back from a test drive where I found a nice smooth stretch of highway and was able to run it up to 80 mph with no significant shimmy. Could be that the shimmy that showed up before was a result of the aggressive tread on a rough surface. (Running Arctic Alpins.) Think I'll go with these unless there's a chance that the 6mm variance could impact the VDC somehow.

Alan

ateixeira

My aftermarket rims have an offset 15mm farther out than stock. I've had no problems in 14k miles so far, and 15mm is a lot more than 6mm.

-juice

popgun

Does the paint on pearl white outbacks have a clear coat?

Doug at CA/OR border

ateixeira

My guess is yes, but I'm not sure. Call 800-SUBARU3 and ask a customer service rep.

-juice

dukephoto

Is this contagious from reading about it here on the board?
Last week I went and got an orbital buffer (I've never waxed a car in my life). I had seen my neighbor using one on his car, and ran in to my house yelling "I need to get a buffer- I need to wax my car". The wife of course thought I was nuts, especially when the following week she saw me take my mats out and use carpet stain remover to get them nice and clean.
After I bought the buffer, I told my wife I was going to wax her Volvo (which really DID need a waxing). She said I just wanted to practice on her car cause I didn't know what I was doing, and didn't want to work on my car without practice. I hate it when she's right like that, but waxed her car anyway. Came out great!
So (finally)- here are my questions:
Do I wax the lower cladding on my VDC? It doesn't seem to be made out of the same stuff as the painted parts of the car.
I got Meguiars Gold Class Liquid (not paste) wax.
I'll probably order some carnuba paste wax via mail order (probably Souveran), but the Meguiars seemed like the best I could find at the time.
I've only had the car for 2 months (not sure it really needs a waxing, but I figure it should help with winter coming up, and besides I feel the NEED........
Is this Meguiars some good stuff or no?
Is this OCD some good stuff or no?

Dukephoto in West Virginia

ateixeira

Practicing on her car? That's hilarious! She busted you, too.

The lower cladding is painted so wax away. I still use Meguairs despite all the new stuff on the market. I like it, though it does leave a dusty powder residue, and it also stains the black trim, so be careful applying it.

It's not too soon to wax. The paint was cured at the factory. Wax will help keep dirt and grime, not to mention those salty chemicals used to melt the snow on the roads, off your car.

-juice

sweet_subie

http://fitzgeraldautomall.com/

jenmc

Hi, All!
Just picked up my new 2002 black VDC sedan last night.
Felt I had to give a plug to the dealer... they were really great.
$550 over invoice... 4.9% financing for 60 months thru Subaru... very straightforward... no "games".
Jim Corbett @ Minooka Subaru in Moosic, PA (Scranton/Wilkes-Barre area) - 800-MINOOKA.
Also dealt w/ Clare Corbett on the paperwork end.
Both Jim & Clare were wonderful to deal with.
I highly recommend!

- Jen

dukephoto

Congtrats on your '02 vdc.
have the '01 in black myself (i liked the gray interior much better than the beige in the other colors).
Hope you enjoy it as much as i love mine!!!!!

DUKEPHOTO in WV

ps- you'll have to let me know if you're ever down in wv so I can see another VDC on the road- I haven't seen one yet in the 3 months+ that I have had mine.

n8wvi

We got our VDC sedan in late July, and I've only seen two other VDCs since, but both were wagons. I thought the sedans would be more popular. I thought the plain Outback sedans were slick enough, but when they offered VDC on it, I just had to have one!

Dave in MI

jenmc

Thanks for your good wishes!

We may be seeing more VDC sedans on the road here in PA if my co-workers have anything to do with it!
They are RAVING about this car... it has caused quite a stir this morning... they LOVE it!

- Jen

ateixeira

Congrats, Jen. I will test drive one with my wife once she's ready to trade in her 626.

-juice

irislvr

jenmc,

Funny you should mention co-workers raving.... I think I've converted at least one person since I got my VDC in July. It was funny when a couple ladies walked by and stopped to walk all around the car, then came in to ask me "What IS that?"

Most everyone who rides in my car is amazed. They all drive Hondas, or Explorers... They just never think about Subaru. I didn't either before purchase. This is the best car I've ever had.

Btw, I wonder if it's too late to ask Santa for a car buffer?????? I feel an OCD episode coming on! :-)

irislvr

I usually check in every week or so and finally signed up. So, I just wanted to say hello and Thanks for the Board. Since we got the VDC in July, I've become a 'car person'. My husband gets such a kick out of it. Previously, my cars always looked like I lived in them. This one is different because I LOVE this car. I've seen one other Winestone Outback, but no other VDC's since purchase. That includes 2 road trips to North Carolina. This car really shines on those long trips. Smooth, stable, quiet, great handling, great sound, plenty of space. What more could you ask for? :-)

Irislvr
2001 Outback VDC (Winestone)
Atlanta

ateixeira

Congrats, my dad has a 2001 Winestone but it's a Limited.

Join us for the chat tonight, and hop over to the most active thread - Subaru Crew - Meet the Members.

-juice

trocco

so i was looking at the brochure and it turns out that the H-6's have an extra .6in road clearance over the 2.5's , bringing them to 7.9 in!!

is this right, or is it a print mistake?

Anybody knows?

matias
(jealous of all you VDC owners)

sweet_subie

it is true..........not a mistake

ateixeira

The front cross member under the H4 is the lowest point on the Outback and Forester, so maybe the H6 routes the exhaust in a different manner, leaving more clearance. I haven't actually crawled under the H6, though I'm very familiar with the H4s.

-juice