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Comments
Greg
tidester
Host
SUVs
BTW, my exhaust has made contact with rocks doing a little offroading where there were some relatively protruding rocks. They wouldn't have been a problem for my '86 4Runner, but that's a different class of vehicle.
HTH,
Theo in Colo.
-mike
thanks:)
-mike
A big problem with Subarus—because the boxer engines hangs out in front of the front axle—is the angle of approach. Even the Forester, which has less front overhang than the Outback is still pretty lousy as compared to other SUV in this area.
Bob
Mostly just curious.
Thanks,
Eric
VTD allows for a 45/55 front/rear default torque split, whereas the normal AT gets 90/10 and the MT gets 50/50.
VDC is vehicle dynamics control - corrects oversteer, understeer, drift, and spin. All controlled by the computer.
-Brian
In addition to the VTD-AWD, the VDC-Outback has the brake-based VDC stability assist system, which the Auto-WRX does not have.
On the other hand, the Auto-WRX has the Limited-slip-differential (in addition to the VTD-AWD), which the VDC-Outback does not have.
IMHO, I would prefer the VTD-AWD with the Limited slip. Of course, having the VDC would be an added plus.
In addition to the above 45/55 torque split (of the VTD-AWD), which is achieved by using a Torque-sensing true planetary gear center differential, the VTD-AWD also has a 6-plate heavy duty electronically controlled, continuously variable clutch pack for rapid torque distribution.
The "Other Auto-Subarus" have a 4-plate clutch-pack of a lighter duty kind, in addition to lacking the Torque-sensing Planetary gear center differential. The 45/55 front/rear torque split (in normal driving of the VTD-AWD equipped Subarus) is achieved by varying the pitch of the planetary gear. It could as well have been set at 35/65 or whatever.
Later...AH
-mike
When the heater is on, even though the panel shows it should be blowing out of only the floor vents, there is a considerable amount of heated air coming out of the ac ducts. It is VERY annoying to have it blowing right in your face. I have to close the ducts to keep it from blowing on me, but there is no way to shut off the 2 center vents.
Do you have the same thing happening? I'm wondering if I'm having a problem with the ac ducts not closing properly.
Thanks- DUKEPHOTO
The Outback will take a bit of punishment and keep going, but if you do that type of thing all the time, consider taller springs (Lovell or iSR) for a 2" lift. They're about $400.
If I set my vents to floor, the two center ones get no air. Mine's a Forester though.
-juice
I believe it works this way so that the side windows can get some air flow at all times, for visibility. But, I could be wrong.
-Brian
FWIW, Theo
i agree
I think, outbacks are great for snow, and the occasional offroad. Like if you go fishing, camping or biking somewhere.
Specially if you need to hit the slopes after a big storm, i think the VDC is the best there's out there for that.
matias
-juice
I drove through some fairly deep snow on a recent trip, and the shield ended up push down (!) and wrapped around the muffler, which caused quite a bit of rattling. The front of this shield is basically "open" (and hangs down slightly) to snow (or other debris).
A Subaru dealer bent the shield back into place, and then 2 days later the same damned thing happened. The shield was also torn, and required replacement. The part was cheap ($45 for the part, for a cheap piece of molded tin), but I made enough "noise" that they did it for free...although they required me to sign a document that states this not something covered under my normal warranty, and was "one time" work.
It appears that the '02 model has a slightly better arrangement, and that the 4 cyl. models even better yet.
I am now reluctant to tackle snowy conditions with this vehicle....oh yes, I happen to live in Utah!
So again, anyone have a similar experience?
Anyone want to buy a 4 month old '01 VDC wagon?
I imagine it wasn't installed properly in the first place. Shouldn't it be above the muffler? How could it bend/tear that easily?
If it happens again, I'd ask the dealer to install the shield from the 2002 (though I'm surprised it's different after just one year).
I wouldn't worry about it, much. The VDC should be fine in the snow. And the answer to your last question is yes, but I'm nowhere close to you. :-(
-juice
It was clear that I was not off-roading, because there were no other marks of any kind under the car...8-)...we all looked!
This occured during freeway driving, pretty heavy snow, but with minivan soccer moms on the road along with an assortment of other vehicles!
The shield was installed correctly, and is between the muffler pipe and undercarraige. The new '02 system attaches differently (better!), and can not be used on the '01 (I was under there, saw an '02, and that is my opinion, I didn't ask the dealer about this).
The dealer (and a regional manager that happened to be on-site) also assured me that I shouldn't worry. Right. Two times driving through some heavy snow, and two times with the same problem.
I guess I'll wait to hear about other common experiences here (or not), and then decide what I am going to do.
I believe that it is a design flaw, albeit small (and not really mechanical in nature), but one that has me concerned about continual repeat experiences in snow.
-mike
I am, ahem, not trying to be argumentative...(I promise!)...any of you that own an '01 VDC can find this out for yourselves.
It's a cheap piece of easily bent metal, and "secured" to the car in a way that allows it to be pushed up or down under what appears to me to be less-than-ridiculous situations. I wasn't attempting to leap chasms, or anything silly, just freeway driving in some deep snow.
If it's something that a welding shop could (or would need to) fix, I would hope that the folks at Subaru would recognize this and implement some larger solution. I'm not holding my breathe.
Re: heat shield...You could just remove it? On my older Nissan, when the flimsy heat sheild's clamps rusted off, the muffler shop told me to just pull it off, it basically does nothing (they said). I know that isn't good news on a new car (you shouldn't have any problems) but a thought. Have you ever had any issues with the VDC in the snow? That is another concern of mine regarding purchasing the car.
I will say that the VDC drove magnificently through the deep snow. Handling, stability, power, etc., were just what I had expected/hoped for. I was on major freeways between Salt Lake City and Seattle, crossed many snow covered passes, and I'm sure went over some black ice during non-daylight portions of the drive. Around town here in SLC the last week has been just dandy with areas of packed snow and/or ice on some of the roads. I'm always looking out for the other guy, and driving conservatively based on what the VDC can do. The VDC has given me a good (but not unrealistic) sense of security in terms of maneuverability and stopping.
Being forced to visit a dealer during the long trip (the heat shield thing!) got real old real quick however, after the second time in 2 days. The third visit for replacement wasn't any easier.
They won't remove a heat shield because if there is a fire they would be liable. I can understand that.
Let's hope this new one holds up better, or perhaps the next dealer you visit tries harder to find you a different solution. It is the first I've heard of the problem, though, and lots of VDCs were on the road last winter.
-juice
I don't think the new shield will perform any differently, same cheap metal, and no design or mounting change to prevent snow from getting behind it, if conditions are just right (wrong?).
Interestingly enough, a regional manager for SOA was on premise when my car was up on the lift, and he and I (and the local svc. manager) toured around under several cars that were also up. The regional fellow seemed to be a pretty nice guy (he authorized the free repair), trying to assure me that this was a unique occurence (uhhm, twice in 2 days...unique?). He got real quiet real fast, however, when I pointed out how the front of my shield mounted quite differently from what was a H4 model...where the front of the shield was "enclosed" on the H4 model ('01, I think, could have been an '02 I suppose), but with side/front edges exposed on the '01 VDC/L.L. Bean models. The '02 H6 models only look slightly improved...but they did look a little sturdier in terms of mounting bolt location...the front edges were still mostly exposed, however. It was just too obvious that the '01 shield design was trouble waiting to happen. He simply quit talking. Had I not just dropped $30K on the car 3.5 months ago I would have been amused.
The regional fellow also mentioned the fact that a lot of VDCs were on the road last winter, and as I mentioned above, this was the first he had ever seen with this problem. I tend not to believe folks that are towing the company line, however...and all I did was drive through some relatively deep snow.
As you can tell, my hot button has been pushed with this problem, but if I am to believe the regional guy, nothing will be done about it from the SOA side.
All I can do is simply drive the car the way I normally would (including through snow), and hope for the best. I will not be recommending this vehicle to anyone, and now wish that I had waited for the '02 Passat 4Motion wagon. Sigh.
To get another perspective on build quality check out the recalls and technical service bulletins listed here at Edmunds. The 2001 VDC has no safety recalls but the Passat 4motion has 2. Historically Subaru's have had relatively few recalls which shows they have higher on-average long term quality. Based on what I have heard for some time now I am confident you have made the better long term choice.
Of course I am biased, having just taken delivery of an 02 VDC wagon 4 days ago. Right on cue the seasons first real snow fall started to come down as we arrived for pick up. If it wasn't for other commuters I would have enjoyed the drive a lot more.
My minor problem is that the passenger side rear door requires an extra hard push to close properly. Granted this is more minor than your heat shield problem.
Best of luck.
2) The original could have been faulty from the factory, not mounted sturdily, etc.
3) If you don't recommend this car based on the heat shield problem, then you have some problems and should seek counciling...
-mike
I seriously doubt a Passat would be perfect. In fact, I'd bet by now you would have had more problems, not less. Dave beat me to it, there have already been two.
Ford Escape had 5 recalls in the first few months. The BMW X5 has had a whopping 14 recalls already, several for possible engine fires. Now that is the type of problem that would keep me from recommending a car!
Also, since the '02 is a better design, why not just recommend avoiding the first year model?
The rep said it was unique, but I'm sure he meant unique to your car. As far as I know, he's right, because I've read this thread from post #1 and yours is the first I've heard of.
Enjoy your Subie.
-juice
Bob
Some Hondas are better, but Subarus are actually more consistent per CR's data.
Another thing is that Honda has the industry's worst warranty, 3/36 with no roadside assistance. Subaru's and VW's are much better.
-juice
33-2031-2 and 33-2075
Does anyone tried one or have better information on this?
Revka
Host
Hatchbacks / Station Wagons / Women's Auto Center Boards
The Odyssey ranked average (as per Consumer Reports) only in its first year of production (1999 model). Issues with a new model ?? In all subsequent years, CR has rated it its top pick.
Later...AH
Still, even owners with problems think the vans are worth it, and that says a lot.
CR's overall rating does not factor in reliability. They are kept separate, and a model is recommended if it does well overall and is at least average in reliability, which the Odyssey meets.
-juice
-mike
-juice
My 96Accord needed new brake pads at 30K, new exhaust from cat. back at 50K, wheel bearings at 70K, and driver's side lock actuator last week (86K). My 92Camry was much more reliable (sold it at 161K with the original rear brakes, exhaust system, etc.) Hoping my 01 Bean (15K) stays reliable...
Greg
Lont term reliability is primarily based on the specific engineering design of that platform and is based on the processes and philosophies between the different companies. Toyota, and to a somewhat lesser extent, Honda and Subaru, have been able to consistently design high reliability through out all their car lines. I think BMW is approaching that level also. It is more hit and miss (mostly misses) with the other companies, based more on the individual chief engineer, than on the fundamental core design processes.
I am sure I commented more than you really wanted, but I really like this stuff.
Mike
One thing that surprises about BMW is the number and the troublesome nature (engine fires) of some of their latest recalls. The X5 has been plagued with 14 of them.
-juice
I know that BMW has really been putting a lot of effort into long term design reliability, probably not there yet. As far as I know, Nippondenso which is Toyota's primary supplier and partner still has never had a U.S. recall on any of their designed components. That is consistency.
While I am knowledgeable of Toyota's design practices, I really don't know that much about Subaru's processes. Would like to.
Mike
The recalls are a shame because I think the fires were the result of a silly little thermostat. Still, I saw photos of BBQ'd X5s that were a little off-putting to say the least.
-juice
And at some very odd temp conditions.
Shouldn't that only happen when I have it in AUTO?
Thanks a ton,
Dan
Toyota had an "Ignitor" problem in the mid-80's, that I think resulted in a recall. This part was really an integrated distributor cap and capacitor, as far as I was able to determine. Don't know if it was explicitly made by Nippondenso (a lot of things in Toyota engine compartments are!), or that a recall actually took place (a long time ago). But the general failure of the ignitors was widely reported in the press at the time, affecting Tercels, Camrys and Celicas, but I might be making an incorrect statement about there actually being a recall.
I remember this because my ignitor failure caused a stranding on the side of Highway 8 in the desert west of Yuma. Further, a hotel night in Yuma, a rental car back to San Diego on Monday because a replacement part could not be had for three days, and then a return trip to Yuma the next weekend to pick up the car was required before all was well again.
Loved my Toyotas (4 in all before the Outback, still have 2), point as usual is that even the mighty Toyota suffers from the occasional failure so I have come to expect almost anything to happen in the typical mass-produced automobile.
Steve
-juice
Thanks, Dan
Had our tree trimming party, and 3 of the 4 guests had Subarus. My driveway looked like a row of Subies! A '99 base, a '00 limited, and my '01 VDC. I took pictures, and if I could ever figure out how to post them on here, I'll put one up.
THEN- I was walking out of the local grocery, and another VDC drove by. I almost ran over and tapped on his window, but being originally from NYC, I know how dangerous that can be. I've been looking for one since July when I decided to buy one, and this is the first one I've seen on the road other than my own.
A great Subaru day!
Have a great holiday to one and all and thanks to all of you for being on this board in such a friendly, helpful fashion.
DUKEPHOTO IN WV