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Subaru Outback VDC

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  • nygregnygreg Member Posts: 1,936
    Congratulations! I have an 01 OB in Winestone. It's the base model though, so I can't blast my neighbors away with the sound system. :) Welcome.

    Greg
  • tidestertidester Member Posts: 10,059
    Welcome aboard! We're glad you finally came out of the darkness to join in and contribute to the great discussions here!

    tidester
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  • theobtheob Member Posts: 148
    The 7.9" number was in the '01 Owners manual that we got with our VDC last Feb (1/19/01 build date). However, all of the brochures and spec sites said 7.3" at the time. I queried about it at the time, and everyone thought it must be a misprint in the manual, but they had a separate section for the H-6 clearance. From crawling around under the car, depending on the tire pressure, I would say the 7.9" is closer to reality than the 7.3" for an empty car. The lowest point in the center of the car is definitely the exhaust pipes. Toward the sides, the lower members of the suspension do come down further, but that is right next to the wheels.
    BTW, my exhaust has made contact with rocks doing a little offroading where there were some relatively protruding rocks. They wouldn't have been a problem for my '86 4Runner, but that's a different class of vehicle.
    HTH,
    Theo in Colo.
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    I don't think the problem is with the clearance of the subies. In my experience offroading with a # of outbacks, the overhangs are what kills them. My cousin's OB went a lot of places I didn't think it would go, we just needed to take her slowly and spot her on the rocks extra carefully. Pics here http://caroga.net/misc/07-04-00/subaru.html


    -mike

  • troccotrocco Member Posts: 19
    mind explaining?
    thanks:)
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    When offroading, generally the subarus will get hung up when going over obstacles because the front or back of the car the part that overhangs past the wheels in the nose and rear sections will get stuck on a rock or ledge. It's called the angle of approach or departure, the higher the angle the better for offroading because your wheels can get up on the obstacle rather then you hitting the obstacle with the bumper or body.

    -mike
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    If you look at *traditional* SUVs, they have very little front and rear overhangs (angles of approach and departure), as well as a good breakover angle (the relationship between ground clearance the wheelbase). In fact, most trucks are good in all these areas. Pickups, as a rule, have long rear overhangs, but because they generally have good ground clearance, their angle of departure is often less of an issue than you may think.

    A big problem with Subarus—because the boxer engines hangs out in front of the front axle—is the angle of approach. Even the Forester, which has less front overhang than the Outback is still pretty lousy as compared to other SUV in this area.

    Bob
  • esqknightesqknight Member Posts: 78
    I figured this would be the right group to ask in. I have a WRX Sedan auto (on order) which comes with the the Variable Torque Distribution (VTD) All-Wheel Drive System, the same system that comes with the VDC Wagon and Sedan. I am wondering what the actually equipment different is between plain VTD and VTD with VDC: computer, computer chip, sensors, etc?

    Mostly just curious.

    Thanks,
    Eric
  • subearusubearu Member Posts: 3,613
    (non-mechanical answer)

    VTD allows for a 45/55 front/rear default torque split, whereas the normal AT gets 90/10 and the MT gets 50/50.

    VDC is vehicle dynamics control - corrects oversteer, understeer, drift, and spin. All controlled by the computer.

    -Brian
  • hunter001hunter001 Member Posts: 851
    The Auto-WRX and the VDC-Outback, have the exclusive VTD-AWD system of Subaru. No other Subaru is equipped with this sophisticated AWD system.

    In addition to the VTD-AWD, the VDC-Outback has the brake-based VDC stability assist system, which the Auto-WRX does not have.

    On the other hand, the Auto-WRX has the Limited-slip-differential (in addition to the VTD-AWD), which the VDC-Outback does not have.

    IMHO, I would prefer the VTD-AWD with the Limited slip. Of course, having the VDC would be an added plus.

    In addition to the above 45/55 torque split (of the VTD-AWD), which is achieved by using a Torque-sensing true planetary gear center differential, the VTD-AWD also has a 6-plate heavy duty electronically controlled, continuously variable clutch pack for rapid torque distribution.

    The "Other Auto-Subarus" have a 4-plate clutch-pack of a lighter duty kind, in addition to lacking the Torque-sensing Planetary gear center differential. The 45/55 front/rear torque split (in normal driving of the VTD-AWD equipped Subarus) is achieved by varying the pitch of the planetary gear. It could as well have been set at 35/65 or whatever.

    Later...AH
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    ATs use weight shift sensors to determine which wheels have more grip and als "learns" a drivers pattern and puts more power to a particular axle in a situation it has previously learned to pre-vent splipage before it happens.

    -mike
  • dukephotodukephoto Member Posts: 49
    I have an '01 VDC.

    When the heater is on, even though the panel shows it should be blowing out of only the floor vents, there is a considerable amount of heated air coming out of the ac ducts. It is VERY annoying to have it blowing right in your face. I have to close the ducts to keep it from blowing on me, but there is no way to shut off the 2 center vents.

    Do you have the same thing happening? I'm wondering if I'm having a problem with the ac ducts not closing properly.

    Thanks- DUKEPHOTO
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    If you regularly need more than 7.9" of clearance, you may be buying the wrong vehicle, to be honest.

    The Outback will take a bit of punishment and keep going, but if you do that type of thing all the time, consider taller springs (Lovell or iSR) for a 2" lift. They're about $400.

    If I set my vents to floor, the two center ones get no air. Mine's a Forester though.

    -juice
  • subearusubearu Member Posts: 3,613
    Our 'regular' Outback H4 also does what juice's Forester does. The side vents always put out some air flow, regardless of how the vent switch is set. Those side vents also have a open/close dial, whereas the center vents don't.

    I believe it works this way so that the side windows can get some air flow at all times, for visibility. But, I could be wrong.

    -Brian
  • theobtheob Member Posts: 148
    If your center vents are blowing hot air in Auto mode, I would bet there is something wrong with the air-gates for the center vents.
    FWIW, Theo
  • troccotrocco Member Posts: 19
    juice: "If you regularly need more than 7.9" of clearance, you may be buying the wrong vehicle, to be honest."

    i agree

    I think, outbacks are great for snow, and the occasional offroad. Like if you go fishing, camping or biking somewhere.
    Specially if you need to hit the slopes after a big storm, i think the VDC is the best there's out there for that.

    matias
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Yep, great for what people really need, basically. That's why I own one. :-)

    -juice
  • lpattislpattis Member Posts: 5
    I own a 2001 VDC, and am wondering if anyone else has had any trouble with the "heat shield", a flimsy piece of metal located midway on the car, between the muffler pipe and undercarraige/frame of the vehicle.

    I drove through some fairly deep snow on a recent trip, and the shield ended up push down (!) and wrapped around the muffler, which caused quite a bit of rattling. The front of this shield is basically "open" (and hangs down slightly) to snow (or other debris).

    A Subaru dealer bent the shield back into place, and then 2 days later the same damned thing happened. The shield was also torn, and required replacement. The part was cheap ($45 for the part, for a cheap piece of molded tin), but I made enough "noise" that they did it for free...although they required me to sign a document that states this not something covered under my normal warranty, and was "one time" work.

    It appears that the '02 model has a slightly better arrangement, and that the 4 cyl. models even better yet.

    I am now reluctant to tackle snowy conditions with this vehicle....oh yes, I happen to live in Utah!

    So again, anyone have a similar experience?

    Anyone want to buy a 4 month old '01 VDC wagon?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    They probably suspect you were off roading. ;-)

    I imagine it wasn't installed properly in the first place. Shouldn't it be above the muffler? How could it bend/tear that easily?

    If it happens again, I'd ask the dealer to install the shield from the 2002 (though I'm surprised it's different after just one year).

    I wouldn't worry about it, much. The VDC should be fine in the snow. And the answer to your last question is yes, but I'm nowhere close to you. :-(

    -juice
  • lpattislpattis Member Posts: 5
    ateixeira, I appreciate your comments.

    It was clear that I was not off-roading, because there were no other marks of any kind under the car...8-)...we all looked!

    This occured during freeway driving, pretty heavy snow, but with minivan soccer moms on the road along with an assortment of other vehicles!

    The shield was installed correctly, and is between the muffler pipe and undercarraige. The new '02 system attaches differently (better!), and can not be used on the '01 (I was under there, saw an '02, and that is my opinion, I didn't ask the dealer about this).

    The dealer (and a regional manager that happened to be on-site) also assured me that I shouldn't worry. Right. Two times driving through some heavy snow, and two times with the same problem.

    I guess I'll wait to hear about other common experiences here (or not), and then decide what I am going to do.

    I believe that it is a design flaw, albeit small (and not really mechanical in nature), but one that has me concerned about continual repeat experiences in snow.
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    I still don't understand how it could have caused a problem. I mean snow is pretty soft compared to the metal. I bet a muffler shop could probably weld it up so that it doesn't happen.

    -mike
  • lpattislpattis Member Posts: 5
    The metal of this heat (or exhaust) shield is little more than tin, and bends easily with little pressure. I can bend it easily with my fingertips.

    I am, ahem, not trying to be argumentative...(I promise!)...any of you that own an '01 VDC can find this out for yourselves.

    It's a cheap piece of easily bent metal, and "secured" to the car in a way that allows it to be pushed up or down under what appears to me to be less-than-ridiculous situations. I wasn't attempting to leap chasms, or anything silly, just freeway driving in some deep snow.

    If it's something that a welding shop could (or would need to) fix, I would hope that the folks at Subaru would recognize this and implement some larger solution. I'm not holding my breathe.
  • sbcookesbcooke Member Posts: 2,297
    I drove a 2002 VDC the other day. Really nice. It handled great and I liked it better than the feel of the bean model (AWD vs 4WD). It may be a little small for my needs so I haven't pulled the trigger, but I was impressed.

    Re: heat shield...You could just remove it? On my older Nissan, when the flimsy heat sheild's clamps rusted off, the muffler shop told me to just pull it off, it basically does nothing (they said). I know that isn't good news on a new car (you shouldn't have any problems) but a thought. Have you ever had any issues with the VDC in the snow? That is another concern of mine regarding purchasing the car.
  • lpattislpattis Member Posts: 5
    Regarding removal of the shield, the dealer says "no."

    I will say that the VDC drove magnificently through the deep snow. Handling, stability, power, etc., were just what I had expected/hoped for. I was on major freeways between Salt Lake City and Seattle, crossed many snow covered passes, and I'm sure went over some black ice during non-daylight portions of the drive. Around town here in SLC the last week has been just dandy with areas of packed snow and/or ice on some of the roads. I'm always looking out for the other guy, and driving conservatively based on what the VDC can do. The VDC has given me a good (but not unrealistic) sense of security in terms of maneuverability and stopping.

    Being forced to visit a dealer during the long trip (the heat shield thing!) got real old real quick however, after the second time in 2 days. The third visit for replacement wasn't any easier.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Cool, I wasn't implying that you did off-road, just that the dealer may have thought you did.

    They won't remove a heat shield because if there is a fire they would be liable. I can understand that.

    Let's hope this new one holds up better, or perhaps the next dealer you visit tries harder to find you a different solution. It is the first I've heard of the problem, though, and lots of VDCs were on the road last winter.

    -juice
  • lpattislpattis Member Posts: 5
    I'm pretty sure they didn't believe me at first, but when we all looked at the underside of the car it was obvious there was no other damage, rock hits, dents, etc. I knew what you were hinting at, BTW, and not implying that I had been having some "illegal" fun off-road. 8-)

    I don't think the new shield will perform any differently, same cheap metal, and no design or mounting change to prevent snow from getting behind it, if conditions are just right (wrong?).

    Interestingly enough, a regional manager for SOA was on premise when my car was up on the lift, and he and I (and the local svc. manager) toured around under several cars that were also up. The regional fellow seemed to be a pretty nice guy (he authorized the free repair), trying to assure me that this was a unique occurence (uhhm, twice in 2 days...unique?). He got real quiet real fast, however, when I pointed out how the front of my shield mounted quite differently from what was a H4 model...where the front of the shield was "enclosed" on the H4 model ('01, I think, could have been an '02 I suppose), but with side/front edges exposed on the '01 VDC/L.L. Bean models. The '02 H6 models only look slightly improved...but they did look a little sturdier in terms of mounting bolt location...the front edges were still mostly exposed, however. It was just too obvious that the '01 shield design was trouble waiting to happen. He simply quit talking. Had I not just dropped $30K on the car 3.5 months ago I would have been amused.

    The regional fellow also mentioned the fact that a lot of VDCs were on the road last winter, and as I mentioned above, this was the first he had ever seen with this problem. I tend not to believe folks that are towing the company line, however...and all I did was drive through some relatively deep snow.

    As you can tell, my hot button has been pushed with this problem, but if I am to believe the regional guy, nothing will be done about it from the SOA side.

    All I can do is simply drive the car the way I normally would (including through snow), and hope for the best. I will not be recommending this vehicle to anyone, and now wish that I had waited for the '02 Passat 4Motion wagon. Sigh.
  • smithda1smithda1 Member Posts: 15
    Sorry to hear of your heat shield problem. It could be that the one on your vehicle was defective (bent?) to begin with. I have read every post here for six months and have never heard of that problem. As annoying as it is there are much worse things that could go wrong with a car. I would be surprised not to encounter some sort of minor problem on such a complex machine.

    To get another perspective on build quality check out the recalls and technical service bulletins listed here at Edmunds. The 2001 VDC has no safety recalls but the Passat 4motion has 2. Historically Subaru's have had relatively few recalls which shows they have higher on-average long term quality. Based on what I have heard for some time now I am confident you have made the better long term choice.

    Of course I am biased, having just taken delivery of an 02 VDC wagon 4 days ago. Right on cue the seasons first real snow fall started to come down as we arrived for pick up. If it wasn't for other commuters I would have enjoyed the drive a lot more.

    My minor problem is that the passenger side rear door requires an extra hard push to close properly. Granted this is more minor than your heat shield problem.

    Best of luck.
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    1) It's a first year model. If the heat shield is the *ONLY* problem you have count your blessings. Or try to buy a Escape or Focus from the first year

    2) The original could have been faulty from the factory, not mounted sturdily, etc.

    3) If you don't recommend this car based on the heat shield problem, then you have some problems and should seek counciling...

    -mike
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Well, Subaru isn't perfect, but at least they came up with a better design for the next year. I guess that's a risk you take with v1.0. I have the first year Forester, but I've been luckier I guess.

    I seriously doubt a Passat would be perfect. In fact, I'd bet by now you would have had more problems, not less. Dave beat me to it, there have already been two.

    Ford Escape had 5 recalls in the first few months. The BMW X5 has had a whopping 14 recalls already, several for possible engine fires. Now that is the type of problem that would keep me from recommending a car!

    Also, since the '02 is a better design, why not just recommend avoiding the first year model?

    The rep said it was unique, but I'm sure he meant unique to your car. As far as I know, he's right, because I've read this thread from post #1 and yours is the first I've heard of.

    Enjoy your Subie.

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    and in talking to the service reps, they indicated that the VWs they see are far more troublesome than the Hondas.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    But even Hondas have fallen from their high horse a bit. The Odyssey ranks only average, as does the new Civic. Significant drops from their predecessors.

    Some Hondas are better, but Subarus are actually more consistent per CR's data.

    Another thing is that Honda has the industry's worst warranty, 3/36 with no roadside assistance. Subaru's and VW's are much better.

    -juice
  • smithda1smithda1 Member Posts: 15
    Been checking into the KN filters and one is specifically listed for the H4 but not the H6 engines. I was checking at http://www.knfilters.com/default.htm and located a couple that look like they would be correct:

    33-2031-2 and 33-2075


    Does anyone tried one or have better information on this?

  • revkarevka Member Posts: 1,750
    In addition to the feedback here, you may also want to check out this Aftermarket & Accessories discussion: K&N Air Filters. Good luck.

    Revka
    Host
    Hatchbacks / Station Wagons / Women's Auto Center Boards
  • hunter001hunter001 Member Posts: 851
    But even Hondas have fallen from their high horse a bit. The Odyssey ranks only average, as does the new Civic. Significant drops from their predecessors.

    The Odyssey ranked average (as per Consumer Reports) only in its first year of production (1999 model). Issues with a new model ?? In all subsequent years, CR has rated it its top pick.

    Later...AH
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    In their 2002 Buying Guide, predicted reliability for the new model is still just "average". I know the 1999s were buggy, especially the trannies, but a few newer ones have similar issues.

    Still, even owners with problems think the vans are worth it, and that says a lot.

    CR's overall rating does not factor in reliability. They are kept separate, and a model is recommended if it does well overall and is at least average in reliability, which the Odyssey meets.

    -juice
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    A few friends who have been long-time hondah lovers have moved away since the mid-90s due to the Hondas not living up to their previous glories. I'd have to agree an 80s era Honda will be better than any post mid-90s one.

    -mike
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    There was a lot of cost-cutting going on in the mid-90s. Had to do with the exchange rates (Dollar vs. Yen).

    -juice
  • otis123otis123 Member Posts: 439
    You're right!

    My 96Accord needed new brake pads at 30K, new exhaust from cat. back at 50K, wheel bearings at 70K, and driver's side lock actuator last week (86K). My 92Camry was much more reliable (sold it at 161K with the original rear brakes, exhaust system, etc.) Hoping my 01 Bean (15K) stays reliable...
  • NSORICNSORIC Member Posts: 33
    Honda's are notorious for having smallish tires & brakes, using cheap rubber CV boots, plus refusing to use install stainless steel exhausts, so all this stuff wears out quickly. Your 'maintenance' intervals are pretty much standard from what I've experienced, and heard from others. The upside is a bulletproof engine & trani! I have a 97 Honda Accord LX 4cyl 5-speed, but am eyeing the Subaru Outback VDC...
  • nygregnygreg Member Posts: 1,936
    if we are getting away from reliable brands (i.e. Honda, Toyota) and moving to how reliable a particular car is (i.e. Accord, Camry). Although engineering plays the dominant role, it seems as the cars are being made around the globe now, problems are arising. An Accord made in country X may be less reliable than one made in country Y because the vendors there use less reliable materials / workmanship / etc. Just a thought.

    Greg
  • mikenkmikenk Member Posts: 281
    Greg, based on a lot of engineering experience within the automobile industry, here is my take. Short term reliability issues (first year of ownership) can be caused by workmanship standards between assembly facilities. I have seen no indication of significant quality differences across countries but certainly individual factories will have different results to some extent.

    Lont term reliability is primarily based on the specific engineering design of that platform and is based on the processes and philosophies between the different companies. Toyota, and to a somewhat lesser extent, Honda and Subaru, have been able to consistently design high reliability through out all their car lines. I think BMW is approaching that level also. It is more hit and miss (mostly misses) with the other companies, based more on the individual chief engineer, than on the fundamental core design processes.

    I am sure I commented more than you really wanted, but I really like this stuff.

    Mike
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    You guys make good points.

    One thing that surprises about BMW is the number and the troublesome nature (engine fires) of some of their latest recalls. The X5 has been plagued with 14 of them.

    -juice
  • mikenkmikenk Member Posts: 281
    Juice,
    I know that BMW has really been putting a lot of effort into long term design reliability, probably not there yet. As far as I know, Nippondenso which is Toyota's primary supplier and partner still has never had a U.S. recall on any of their designed components. That is consistency.

    While I am knowledgeable of Toyota's design practices, I really don't know that much about Subaru's processes. Would like to.

    Mike
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I went to the BMW Ultimate Driving event earlier this year, and they make some fine cars. You can really tell all the effort that goes into the design.

    The recalls are a shame because I think the fires were the result of a silly little thermostat. Still, I saw photos of BBQ'd X5s that were a little off-putting to say the least.

    -juice
  • dan2001dan2001 Member Posts: 17
    The climate control, in manual mode, on my 2001 LLBean starts the A/C all by it's self sometimes.
    And at some very odd temp conditions.
    Shouldn't that only happen when I have it in AUTO?

    Thanks a ton,

    Dan
  • ffsteveffsteve Member Posts: 243
    Mikenk,

    Toyota had an "Ignitor" problem in the mid-80's, that I think resulted in a recall. This part was really an integrated distributor cap and capacitor, as far as I was able to determine. Don't know if it was explicitly made by Nippondenso (a lot of things in Toyota engine compartments are!), or that a recall actually took place (a long time ago). But the general failure of the ignitors was widely reported in the press at the time, affecting Tercels, Camrys and Celicas, but I might be making an incorrect statement about there actually being a recall.

    I remember this because my ignitor failure caused a stranding on the side of Highway 8 in the desert west of Yuma. Further, a hotel night in Yuma, a rental car back to San Diego on Monday because a replacement part could not be had for three days, and then a return trip to Yuma the next weekend to pick up the car was required before all was well again.

    Loved my Toyotas (4 in all before the Outback, still have 2), point as usual is that even the mighty Toyota suffers from the occasional failure so I have come to expect almost anything to happen in the typical mass-produced automobile.

    Steve
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Dan: is it on defrost? If so, it may be using the compressor to de-humidify the interior and clear up the windshield.

    -juice
  • dan2001dan2001 Member Posts: 17
    juice: Thank you for responding. No just regular vent or feet. I look down ant the A/C indicator is on. Like it thinks it's in Auto, but Auto is not displayed.

    Thanks, Dan
  • dukephotodukephoto Member Posts: 49
    It was a great day yesterday in my new life as a Subaru-ian.
    Had our tree trimming party, and 3 of the 4 guests had Subarus. My driveway looked like a row of Subies! A '99 base, a '00 limited, and my '01 VDC. I took pictures, and if I could ever figure out how to post them on here, I'll put one up.

    THEN- I was walking out of the local grocery, and another VDC drove by. I almost ran over and tapped on his window, but being originally from NYC, I know how dangerous that can be. I've been looking for one since July when I decided to buy one, and this is the first one I've seen on the road other than my own.

    A great Subaru day!

    Have a great holiday to one and all and thanks to all of you for being on this board in such a friendly, helpful fashion.

    DUKEPHOTO IN WV
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