was about control from accross the pond. It wasn't about money. It gave the local Crown officials control of every aspect of American life, since any official transaction required a government stamp. These weren't postage stamps (there was no post office then) they were official stamps, like a notary stamp, and the stamp fee wasn't particularly onerous. But if you wanted to get married, or sell property, or ship a cargo, or collect a debt etc. you needed the permission of the King through his appointed representatives. Not only did the fees go to GB, but the control did as well. It was more an insult - the final one - than a cost.
But back to profits: Much of the super-high markup is the stuff of myths, fed by a lack of understanding of basic business pribciples. Very doggone few businesses in this country sell at prices much above what they need to stay in business. Even jewelers and rug merchants run close to margins - some sell at high margins most of the year and have huge sales now and then, others sell at fair value most of the time. Costs associated with an inventory that valuable are quite high.
The car business is a bit of an enigma to me. Any business that actually sells products at 2-3% GP is very marginal, and must be making better return elsewhere. I guess used car sales provided better money than new, and the F&I operation. Otherwise, why would someone invest the millions necessary to own one with that kind of return? You can beat invoice+$500 with the average 6-month CD!
I think I've figured out the car biz thing, but no dealer principles here will chime in.
While there is a big investment in the physical plant, the dealers don't really "buy" the inventory. They floorplan it. So the vehicle really only costs them the cost of money. As soon as the vehicle sells, they pay off the bank or whoever is providing that financing.
So it really isn't the new car dealers money. (Unless of course it all goes to HECK, and the bank comes and gets the cars and desks and phones, etc.)
It still takes a bunch of money, but the dealer is leveraging his or her money to borrow for the inventory.
So the percentage of what is paid in interest plus the share of the property and those costs are the REAL costs in selling the car. But I don't think it is correct to add the physical plant costs, labor costs, and the entire cost of the car if the dealership is borrowing the money to keep an inventory.
I may not have all the numbers right (nor should anyone expect that I do) but I probably have a pretty good idea of what is going on, that makes it so appealing to sell new cars.
Say I have 100K I want to leverage to buy inventory. In my example, let's say the bank wants 20% down, so I can borrow 500K to buy some cars.
I'll assume the average MSRP is 20K and the invoice price is 93% of the MSRP. I'll also assume I sell each car at exactly the midpoint of MSRP and the invoice price or about 96.5% of MSRP. (I don't want to get wrapped around the axle about rebates and such.)
So with that 500K I can buy 26 cars at $18.6K each and if I sell them at $19.3K I get $18.2K back for my 100K I'm leveraging.
I know, there are the costs for the store, the cost of borrowing the money, the sales and support staff and such. But I think there is a lot more profit margin than most folks realize.
Not that profit is bad. Profit is good, because without profit we would have jobs or successful businesses or a growing economy.
And swerving back into taxes, when taxes take too much from the business and citizens, it slows economic growth, as businesses cannot reinvest dollars confiscated by the government.
Grocery stores mark-ups too high for your tastes? Grow your own food. Go live on a farm. This will probably reduce also your need for those high mark-up prescription drugs too, what with all the fresh air and exercise you'll get. As for high mark-ups on housing, build your own house. Perhaps make a log cabin on your farm.
That was all tongue in cheek but are you really concerned about high mark-ups or just high prices? Or do you see the difference?
I have taken the liberty of deleting several messages on taxation and history that had absolutely nothing to do with the automotive industry. Please try to focus on automotive issues. Thanks.
takes to run a dealership service department? The Chevy store I worked at had 41 techs, 16 of which were master techs with 15 plus years. Those guys got between $22-30 a flat rate hour. We also had 3 oil change guys, a dispatcher and a shop foreman. 4 detail guys and a detail shop manager. Now for the parts department......
a certain extent, but the parts department usually does a little better than break even and the support staff is a drain, just like building costs, utilities and probably the largest thing no on sees - insurance.
...but then again, most companies do that. Few manufacturers/wholesalers sell COD to retailers. They offer payment terms. In my industry, it's 2% 10, net 30. If you pay the manufacturer in 10 days you get a 2% discount or pay them net in 30 days. Retail the product in that timeframe, and you're ahead if you get some sort of interest on the money. Don't, you pay interest.
.... Workmans comp, security, 401k, payroll, health plans, lights, heat, county, property taxes, state taxes, floorplan, inventory .. advertising, some dealers spend as much as as $45,000 a month ...
I just bought an '02 Focus SE Comfort w/ABS for my aunt. It was a used rental, 18k I paid $9500 for it. I didn't like its history but it looked great and brakes felt good for a rental. Did I get a decent deal? Bought the car in Boston, MA, Liquid Gray was the color.
Also, anybody have any idea why it is IMPOSSIBLE to find a new Focus Wagon (preferably '02) but even an '03 with ABS on anybody's lot? It would make a great car for my mom but it amazes to me to see these dealers with literally 30 in stock and not a single one with ABS!
I will be in the market for a new pickup in the next 30 days or so, so I decided to visit a Ford dealer yesterday. I was specifically looking for an F-150 STX. The STX package is basically a sporty dress up package that can be added to the XLT--new for '03. There are 3 Ford dealers in my local area. The first 2 had no idea what I was talking about, but were able to bring me some information via an order book they had. I decided to visit the third dealership, as my goal was to see one in person vs. pictures. I was greeted by a salesman, who again had no idea what I was talking about. He told me to stand by, and I watched him go into the sales manager office. After a short conversation, the salesman came back and told me "they stopped making that model a few months ago. Can I interest you in a Lightning?"
If you visit the ford.com website and look at the STX, it provides a little information, and states "See your local Ford Dealer for more details." Yeah, that works. It never ceases to amaze me that I typically know more (in some cases much more) than the folks who are trying to sell me a vehicle. I don't know about others, but this can turn me off enough to where I will take my business elsewhere.
No real question--didn't really know what board to post it at. Perhaps this is not the place, but I was frustrated with my adventure yesterday, which was a waste of my time. I guess a Ford related dealer/salesman could comment if they are aware of the STX package, plus comment on my remark about uneducated people in the business who should be in the know.
I am aware of the STX package. It is new for 2003 (in Canada anyway). This is what it includes:
Radio: AM/FM Kenwood Stereo w/CD/Clock Includes MP3/CD (plays MP3 encoded CDs) and faceplate. 60/40 Cloth Split Bench Sport Seat Includes driver and passenger lumbar and seat centre storage. Wheels: 7.5" x 17" Chrometec Styled Tires: P275/60R17 OWL AS (5) Includes matching spare. Colour Keyed Wheel Lip Mouldings Colour Keyed Front & Rear Bumper Colour Keyed Grille Surround w/Chrome Ring Includes black billet grille insert. Fog Lamps 3.55 Axle Ratio Tubular Chrome Running Boards LATE AVAILABILITY when ordered independently. Chrome Exhaust Tip Includes medium tonal brush applique on I/P centre stack and door plates, chrome lug nuts, power mirror, colour keyed skull caps, clear headlamp, colour keyed door handles and door trim mouldings, colour keyed lower fascia, clear park lamps and STX decal.
And yes, it would be nice if every salesman knew everything about what was available. How about sending a quick email to the store management telling them about the problem you experienced. This board is a good place to vent but none of us can do anything to fix your situation.
Your post would've been better at "inconsiderate salespeople" ; ) Mackabee The thing that might have happened and I see that happening at my store is that both new and used salespersons are under one roof. You probably got a used car salesperson.
I thought about putting it there, but the 3 sales people I contacted were not inconsiderate, just uninformed. Plus, in each case, they had to go ask someone else. One asked the sales manager, and the 2 others asked someone presumably in their leadership chain. None of those transactions resulted in a correct answer either, so that's 6 uninformed people.
Landru2--thanks much for the info.
Lastly, any others sent to the new, "beta" Edmunds site? I don't like it at all--much prefer the old.
STX Edition F-150 $995.00 - Front Seat - Dark Graphite Cloth 40/60 Split Bench Seat Only; Rear Cloth Flip-Up Bench Seat - Kenwood® MP3/CD Radio, AM/FM Stereo with Single CD and Clock - Body Color Grille Surround with Chrome Ring and Black Billet Grille Insert - Medium Tonal Brush Applique on I/P Center Stack Bezel and XLT Door Switch Plates - Chrome Tubular Step Bars and New Chrome Exhaust Tip - Body Colored Power Exterior Mirror - Body-Colored: Wheel Lip Moldings, Skull Caps, Door Handles, Front and Rear Bumpers, and Lower Fascia - 17" Chromed Steel Wheels - P275/60R17 OWL All-Season Tires - 3.55 Axle Ratio; Optional 3.55 Limited Slip Axle - Park Lamps - Clear Lens Headlamps - New Fog Lamps and Accent Colored Valance
Looks the same as what Ford Canada offers. It's new for 2003, replacing the "Sport" package that's been optional on XL and XLT trim for the past several years.
I was looking at F150's today and did not see a STX. Don't seem to be available in the South yet.
There's no STX available on the Ranger either. XL, XLT, Edge, Tremor, FX4, and FX4 Level II are the trim packages for the '03 Ranger.
When car shopping, I've often overheard salespeople tell customers they go by the book for their trade in. Not everywhere and not every place, of course.
Now, based on what I've read on this board, and on "pricing" vehicles from 2001-2002 Model Year, I've come to the conclusion that KBB is worth the electrons they are printed on, and NADA is worth exactly that. NADA.
So, why not tell customers that the value of their used car is dependent on market conditions and that even those publications may not have current data, and may not reflect reality for their geographic area.
Why even bring up those books if their values are not necessarily indicative of reality?
those books are primarily design ONLY as lender's guides (to see how they should loan on a particular car) or as auction guides. Somewhere in our past, they became gospel for all car trading transactions. That's not what they are, though.
I have only bought 3 new cars in the last 19 years, and gone with my brother when he bought his 2. I've also gone with a few friends when they were shopping.
Usually, by the time I buy, my cars are 7-8 years old. Usually, salesmen just cringe when my mention my trade.
But yes, I have overheard that. Whether it was a comment directed at my brother and his old putt-putt mobile, and/or one of my friends, I can not tell you. It may have even been at the dealsership when I was getting my car serviced.
Zues, thanks for the reply. As clothier Sy Syms says, "An educated consumer is our best customer."
I'm not sure where to put this question, but I guess here is as good as anywhere else...
I'm looking for a four-wheel drive wagon, manual, that's reasonably fun to drive. Ideally, I'd buy a Passat 4-Motion, but it only comes in automatic. I know Subaru fits the bill perfectly, but they just leave me cold for some reason. Is there a wagon I'm overlooking? I've considered the A6 wagon, but it's a bit more than I want to spend, and the A4 is a little small. I'm looking to spend about 30-32K.
Ah, the A6 wagon/Avant only comes in auto. The A4 Avant only comes in auto only I think. The only manual station wagon with manual is probably the Volvo. But I don't think they come with a AWD system anymore. I could be wrong though.
Yup, your choices are very limited in this field, especially if you don't like Subarus.
Not EXACTLY wagons, but available with AWD. having said that. I've been saving for a WRX wagon ever since I drove one. That bad boy moves, and I can carry children and soccer gear.
The AWD version of the Matrix is NOT available in a 5sp configuration. Similarly, the XRS model with the engine upgrade is not available with AWD. There is a rumor that TRD will be offering a Supercharger for the matrix in the very near future, however. Hope this helps.
maxwella: Right on, my brother! Stick is the way to go. And yes, that'll be a Subie for you... or an A4 Avant, at least a yr ago they came in 5sp. Automatics are for weenies, anyway.
Ken: There is a supercharger kit, and it's NOT available for AWD, at least that's what I saw on the Pontiac site... a supercharger makes no sense when you have a restrictive exhaust system like the AWD has (hence the 123 vs. 130 hp).
I have a 2002 Tahoe Z71. It has had a very noticeable vibration through the steering wheel, brake pedal, and seats. It does this when at idle and I only have 12,000 miles on it. It didn't do this when I test drove or when I first bought the thing. I really love this SUV, but this vibration is really annoying.
Took it to the dealer twice now and they say can't duplicate customer complaint. They say the idle is fine, and there are no software updates for the PCM at this time. Told me it may be bad gas, or maybe the valves have deposits and to try running some chevron additive through it. I will do this just to do what they suggested, but am doubtful it will work. I did open the hood and have felt the same vibration in engine. It is like a cycle of smooth running then a rough idle for a few strokes, then smooth again. The vibration is being felt through the vehicle when it does this.
I feel a $35K vehicle shouldn't have vibration while sitting at an idle unless it's a diesel. The service tech said I may have to live with it. He hasn't heard this complaint before.
What steps can I take to work this out. I told the service guy that I have heard some possible solutions on the web (PCM being flashed and software reloaded, replacing the IAR) and that I wanted to work as a team to get this fixed. He said he would have to talk to his foreman to see if this can be done. I feel that no matter what, they will say there is nothing wrong. I don't understand how the mechanic that has been in the vehicle can't feel the vibration when in the thing.
Should I insist that they drive with me and then have them validate there is a rough idle and vibration and then take steps to fix it. I always seem to be at the mercy of their time. I dropped it off at 9 AM appointment and waited 6 hours before I called back so they could do that and another small item. They hadn't even taken it out to check the idle yet. So can I insist that they do it with me when I show up for my next appointment.
I really don't want to get anyone upset, but I have to have a way to validate this problem and get it on the work order. When they keep putting can't duplicate complaint, it never admits there is a problem and really wastes my time and recourse for a lemon.
Should I ask service manager to be able to test drive other tahoes to see if they have the same problem. If they don't have the rough idle can I insist they try something to stop the problem even though their computers show nothing wrong.
I did have to have the PCM replaced after 1,000 miles cause it was faulty. Maybe the one replaced is just a tad off in operation even though it shows good. I had a used vehicle that was having the check engine lite coming on for a second, but nothing would register on diagnostics. They checked all sensors and they checked good until they actually took them out and benched checked one and it showed bad and that did solve the problem. This was an independent mechanic though.
Is that an option if I don't get satisfaction at the dealer. Can I have an independant mechanic do warranty work if they are certified or will that void warranty?
I really want to do the right thing, but I don't want to get brushed off as an over sensitive, felling things that aren't there customer. I am worried that after 36,000 miles I will get the old. We found out the problem. It is the disconbobulator and it will now cost $1,000 to fix it.
Please lend any advice on my steps in the service department.
Absolutely insist that they have a Tech come with you on a ride so the problem is witnessed. It may be your only way to a fair deal. Back in 99 I had a 98 Malibu [Piece of junk] but anyway, I kept having a problem with coolant loss. I was almost out of warranty. Two times the dealer could not find the problem even when they said they pressure tested it. The low coolant light kept coming on. 40,000 miles suprise out of warranty and I go for an oil change and the oil is WHITE! I go back to the dealer and they replaced the intake gasket with a $100 deductible from me. Since the problem was documented under warranty they had to eat most of the cost. 20 thousand miles later the gasket blew again.....Forget GM...Long live the new JEEP!
Love Alaska. Have moose in my backyard at least once a week. Job is ok. Getting a little hectic with all the diplomacy going on.
You know, I have had trouble with the vehicle ever since I left Texas. Guess it didn't want to leave. I got up the road 200 miles and the hot tranny light came on. Found out thanks to a great service manager in Arizona that it was the PCM. Got all the way to Alaska, it ran great, and went in for an oil change and they found the differential leaking. Repaired that and then this vibration thing started. Also had a vibration noise coming from passenger rear quarter and they said it was the muffler hanger so they adjusted it. We'll see if that does it.
Tahoe runs great in snow and ice. Auto 4WD works fantastic. Get a clunking from rear end ever now and then when taking off.
Zues can an independent mechanic do warranty work on this if the dealer wont work with me?
Or better yet, how can I make the service guys work with me. Can I insist and they have to do the work even if they don't feel anything is wrong?
any "work" other than regular maintenace can and will cost you your warranty status.
I deal with this stuff every day, unfortunately.
There are multiple TSBs published concerning the idle and drivability of your engine/transmission combination.
Have the service guys look up TSBs #000603009 and 020604023A. These both address engine management issues and overlap the condition you're describing.
Most of all, be calm, talk to the service manager, empathise with the fact that you know his guys are trying - then, if that doesn't work, contact the BBB or an attorney, preferably the latter.
Actually, independants "can" do warranty work, but its a bugger getting GM to pay. We ran into that a couple years ago with a 96 GMC K2500 6.5L TD. The injection pump was going out and neither GM dealer in Fairbanks had a certified diesel tech, but our independant mechanic is a certified gm diesel tech. So, we did an "emergency weekend repair" and GM covered all $1853.52 worth of the repair, of course it took 6 weeks to get the money but it was repaired correctly by someone who knew what he was doing. We could have taken it to Anchorage, but on our one trip to a gm dealer there were not impressed by their techs.
Just my .02, maybe things are different up here since there is such a limited amount of dealers in the state.
please don't get me wrong. Also, shops that aren't equipped to do certain things, like water leak repair, alignments or work on diesels send vehicles out to private shops, but that's through the dealer.
I've had people take a vehicle to their brother-in-law's shop, have him do $900 in repairs, then want their money reimbursed through the manufacturer. Doesn't work that way.
Our winter was nice until about a week ago, then the temp dropped like a rock. Its miserable at 30 to 50 below zero.
Nope, no VW anymore, I miss it, but not the speeding tickets. I'm driving a tank, er, a 1990 Suburban, its paid for and protests when asked to go over 70 mph, so I figure no more speeding tickets. I do miss my Jetta, maybe will get another one someday, but for now am enjoying no car payments.
I've been around, just going through some rough times and kind of avoided Edmunds for a while, but I'm back now. Thanks for thinking of me, glad to know I wasn't forgotten.
Here in Jersey, when taking a car on a test drive, with the salesman, most (99%) car dealers ask for your driver's license so they can make a copy of it. This is ostensibly for "insurance purposes".
The cynic in me says it is so they can run a credit check on you while you are out test driving.
I'm curious if dealers in other states have the same practice or if they just want to make sure you have a license before letting you take their cars out.
The funniest was one dealer where the salesman had to, and again for "insurance purposes" drive the car off the lot and then park somewhere and we would change so I could drive.
Actually, there are several dealerships that I know of (mine included) that have a policy that if a customer takes a car off the lot without a salesperson in the car with them they have a copy of the driver's license. Honestly, I think that it should be done in any case. Some say that this is for insurance purposes, although I cannot say definately yes. Most likely and most often it is because you're taking a piece of property valued at anywhere from $10,000 to $60,000 with no idea of who you are, where you live, etc. in case you don't come back. They're protecting their property.
As for the sales person driving first, some stores prefer this so that A: They can take you on a route that is safe and variable enough for most test drives (although if you want to try it somewhere else, you should be able to) and B: It gives you (the customer) time to get used to the vehicle and pay attention to details that you may not be able to while driving a vehicle you're not familiar with.
if a car is wrecked on a test drive and the dealer doesn't have your license or information, you could walk away and they're holding the bag, even though you're responsible for the wreck. If they don't have your info, you could have said your name was "Joe Smith" and walk away with no liability. A dealer's insurance company won't fight for them unless they're well-documented.
With two of the dealerships I worked for, our insurance company prohibited a consumer operating a new/used (inventory) vehicle on our property. The salesman would drive it off the lot, turn it over to you, then after his/her "certification" of your driving ability, you could drive back onto the lot.
Don't blame the car dealer, blame the insurance companies.
As far as running your credit goes, you know there are pretty stiff penalties for running your credit without your permission. Any dealer that does this certainly doesn't deserve your business.
I had an interesting argument with a customer about running credit when he was paying with a check on the weekend.
He blew a gasket because I wanted to see his credit history before taking the check. I said, "It's simple and I mean no offense, but if I gave you $100 in 20s, you'd count it and I wouldn't be offended because I could have counted wrong. You're giving me a check for $27,000 and taking our car - if the check bounces, we don't have a deal - then I've got a new car with miles on it - it's just good business practice".
Yup, here even with a sales person in the car, they want a copy of the license.
I'm not faulting the dealer for "driving off the property rule", but like you said, it's the insurance companies.
And Zues, whenever I have bought a car ('83, '90, and '98) I have given the dealer a bank certified check. I doubt that any dealers around here accept personal checks.
"In God we trust, all others pay cash." For all you know, that check could have been as worthless as the Maginot Line.
agreed, considering how easy it is to forge checks nowadays with color printers and software. Check forging is rampant. All someone needs are the routing numbers and anyone can print out a draft and drain any bank account. Every check processor in the US will process a bank draft without thinking once, let alone twice.
Walk into a bank and try to cash a personal check and they want all sorts of ID. Send a bank draft to be processed and you can get the money in two shakes. The system is a nightmare.
Comments
But back to profits: Much of the super-high markup is the stuff of myths, fed by a lack of understanding of basic business pribciples. Very doggone few businesses in this country sell at prices much above what they need to stay in business. Even jewelers and rug merchants run close to margins - some sell at high margins most of the year and have huge sales now and then, others sell at fair value most of the time. Costs associated with an inventory that valuable are quite high.
The car business is a bit of an enigma to me. Any business that actually sells products at 2-3% GP is very marginal, and must be making better return elsewhere. I guess used car sales provided better money than new, and the F&I operation. Otherwise, why would someone invest the millions necessary to own one with that kind of return? You can beat invoice+$500 with the average 6-month CD!
While there is a big investment in the physical plant, the dealers don't really "buy" the inventory. They floorplan it. So the vehicle really only costs them the cost of money. As soon as the vehicle sells, they pay off the bank or whoever is providing that financing.
So it really isn't the new car dealers money. (Unless of course it all goes to HECK, and the bank comes and gets the cars and desks and phones, etc.)
It still takes a bunch of money, but the dealer is leveraging his or her money to borrow for the inventory.
So the percentage of what is paid in interest plus the share of the property and those costs are the REAL costs in selling the car. But I don't think it is correct to add the physical plant costs, labor costs, and the entire cost of the car if the dealership is borrowing the money to keep an inventory.
I may not have all the numbers right (nor should anyone expect that I do) but I probably have a pretty good idea of what is going on, that makes it so appealing to sell new cars.
Well, that and the $499 pin stripes, LOL.
TB
Say I have 100K I want to leverage to buy inventory. In my example, let's say the bank wants 20% down, so I can borrow 500K to buy some cars.
I'll assume the average MSRP is 20K and the invoice price is 93% of the MSRP. I'll also assume I sell each car at exactly the midpoint of MSRP and the invoice price or about 96.5% of MSRP.
(I don't want to get wrapped around the axle about rebates and such.)
So with that 500K I can buy 26 cars at $18.6K each and if I sell them at $19.3K I get $18.2K back for my 100K I'm leveraging.
I know, there are the costs for the store, the cost of borrowing the money, the sales and support staff and such. But I think there is a lot more profit margin than most folks realize.
Not that profit is bad. Profit is good, because without profit we would have jobs or successful businesses or a growing economy.
And swerving back into taxes, when taxes take too much from the business and citizens, it slows economic growth, as businesses cannot reinvest dollars confiscated by the government.
TB
That was all tongue in cheek but are you really concerned about high mark-ups or just high prices? Or do you see the difference?
Car_man
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And then the office staff, there are 6.....
But, working in a similar capacity for a computer hardware vendor, I know all about the costs.
People wonder why we charge say a grand for that SCSI hard drive. It's because we can get it to them in under 60 minutes in most cases, even at 3AM.
But then that gets into the value discussion.
TB
Who knows warehousing, delivery, training and other stuff costs too.
Terry.
I just bought an '02 Focus SE Comfort w/ABS for my aunt. It was a used rental, 18k I paid $9500 for it. I didn't like its history but it looked great and brakes felt good for a rental. Did I get a decent deal? Bought the car in Boston, MA, Liquid Gray was the color.
Also, anybody have any idea why it is IMPOSSIBLE to find a new Focus Wagon (preferably '02) but even an '03 with ABS on anybody's lot? It would make a great car for my mom but it amazes to me to see these dealers with literally 30 in stock and not a single one with ABS!
If you visit the ford.com website and look at the STX, it provides a little information, and states "See your local Ford Dealer for more details." Yeah, that works. It never ceases to amaze me that I typically know more (in some cases much more) than the folks who are trying to sell me a vehicle. I don't know about others, but this can turn me off enough to where I will take my business elsewhere.
Radio: AM/FM Kenwood Stereo w/CD/Clock
Includes MP3/CD (plays MP3 encoded CDs) and faceplate.
60/40 Cloth Split Bench Sport Seat
Includes driver and passenger lumbar and seat centre storage.
Wheels: 7.5" x 17" Chrometec Styled
Tires: P275/60R17 OWL AS (5)
Includes matching spare.
Colour Keyed Wheel Lip Mouldings
Colour Keyed Front & Rear Bumper
Colour Keyed Grille Surround w/Chrome Ring
Includes black billet grille insert.
Fog Lamps
3.55 Axle Ratio
Tubular Chrome Running Boards
LATE AVAILABILITY when ordered independently.
Chrome Exhaust Tip
Includes medium tonal brush applique on I/P centre stack and door plates, chrome lug nuts, power mirror, colour keyed skull caps, clear headlamp, colour keyed door handles and door trim mouldings, colour keyed lower fascia, clear park lamps and STX decal.
And yes, it would be nice if every salesman knew everything about what was available. How about sending a quick email to the store management telling them about the problem you experienced. This board is a good place to vent but none of us can do anything to fix your situation.
; )
Mackabee
The thing that might have happened and I see that happening at my store is that both new and used salespersons are under one roof. You probably got a used car salesperson.
Landru2--thanks much for the info.
Lastly, any others sent to the new, "beta" Edmunds site? I don't like it at all--much prefer the old.
STX Edition F-150 $995.00
- Front Seat - Dark Graphite Cloth 40/60 Split Bench Seat Only; Rear Cloth Flip-Up Bench Seat
- Kenwood® MP3/CD Radio, AM/FM Stereo with Single CD and Clock
- Body Color Grille Surround with Chrome Ring and Black Billet Grille Insert
- Medium Tonal Brush Applique on I/P Center Stack Bezel and XLT Door Switch Plates
- Chrome Tubular Step Bars and New Chrome Exhaust Tip
- Body Colored Power Exterior Mirror
- Body-Colored: Wheel Lip Moldings, Skull Caps, Door Handles, Front and Rear Bumpers, and Lower Fascia
- 17" Chromed Steel Wheels
- P275/60R17 OWL All-Season Tires
- 3.55 Axle Ratio; Optional 3.55 Limited Slip Axle
- Park Lamps
- Clear Lens Headlamps
- New Fog Lamps and Accent Colored Valance
Looks the same as what Ford Canada offers. It's new for 2003, replacing the "Sport" package that's been optional on XL and XLT trim for the past several years.
I was looking at F150's today and did not see a STX. Don't seem to be available in the South yet.
There's no STX available on the Ranger either. XL, XLT, Edge, Tremor, FX4, and FX4 Level II are the trim packages for the '03 Ranger.
Now, based on what I've read on this board, and on "pricing" vehicles from 2001-2002 Model Year, I've come to the conclusion that KBB is worth the electrons they are printed on, and NADA is worth exactly that. NADA.
So, why not tell customers that the value of their used car is dependent on market conditions and that even those publications may not have current data, and may not reflect reality for their geographic area.
Why even bring up those books if their values are not necessarily indicative of reality?
- Lou
I don't know, why do you think they would bring it up?
I have only bought 3 new cars in the last 19 years, and gone with my brother when he bought his 2. I've also gone with a few friends when they were shopping.
Usually, by the time I buy, my cars are 7-8 years old. Usually, salesmen just cringe when my mention my trade.
But yes, I have overheard that. Whether it was a comment directed at my brother and his old putt-putt mobile, and/or one of my friends, I can not tell you. It may have even been at the dealsership when I was getting my car serviced.
Zues, thanks for the reply. As clothier Sy Syms says, "An educated consumer is our best customer."
- Lou
I'm looking for a four-wheel drive wagon, manual, that's reasonably fun to drive. Ideally, I'd buy a Passat 4-Motion, but it only comes in automatic. I know Subaru fits the bill perfectly, but they just leave me cold for some reason. Is there a wagon I'm overlooking? I've considered the A6 wagon, but it's a bit more than I want to spend, and the A4 is a little small. I'm looking to spend about 30-32K.
Any thoughts?
Much appreciated!
Yup, your choices are very limited in this field, especially if you don't like Subarus.
Ah yes, that WRX is a blast, too bad its so small, wish they put that engine in the Legacy.
a manual tranny.
Ken
And yes, that'll be a Subie for you... or an A4 Avant, at least a yr ago they came in 5sp.
Automatics are for weenies, anyway.
Ken: There is a supercharger kit, and it's NOT available for AWD, at least that's what I saw on the Pontiac site... a supercharger makes no sense when you have a restrictive exhaust system like the AWD has (hence the 123 vs. 130 hp).
:-(
-Mathias
Took it to the dealer twice now and they say can't duplicate customer complaint. They say the idle is fine, and there are no software updates for the PCM at this time. Told me it may be bad gas, or maybe the valves have deposits and to try running some chevron additive through it. I will do this just to do what they suggested, but am doubtful it will work. I did open the hood and have felt the same vibration in engine. It is like a cycle of smooth running then a rough idle for a few strokes, then smooth again. The vibration is being felt through the vehicle when it does this.
I feel a $35K vehicle shouldn't have vibration while sitting at an idle unless it's a diesel. The service tech said I may have to live with it.
He hasn't heard this complaint before.
What steps can I take to work this out. I told the service guy that I have heard some possible solutions on the web (PCM being flashed and software reloaded, replacing the IAR) and that I wanted to work as a team to get this fixed. He said he would have to talk to his foreman to see if this can be done. I feel that no matter what, they will say there is nothing wrong. I don't understand how the mechanic that has been in the vehicle can't feel the vibration when in the thing.
Should I insist that they drive with me and then have them validate there is a rough idle and vibration and then take steps to fix it. I always seem to be at the mercy of their time. I dropped it off at 9 AM appointment and waited 6 hours before I called back so they could do that and another small item. They hadn't even taken it out to check the idle yet. So can I insist that they do it with me when I show up for my next appointment.
I really don't want to get anyone upset, but I have to have a way to validate this problem and get it on the work order. When they keep putting can't duplicate complaint, it never admits there is a problem and really wastes my time and recourse for a lemon.
Should I ask service manager to be able to test drive other tahoes to see if they have the same problem. If they don't have the rough idle can I insist they try something to stop the problem even though their computers show nothing wrong.
I did have to have the PCM replaced after 1,000 miles cause it was faulty. Maybe the one replaced is just a tad off in operation even though it shows good. I had a used vehicle that was having the check engine lite coming on for a second, but nothing would register on diagnostics. They checked all sensors and they checked good until they actually took them out and benched checked one and it showed bad and that did solve the problem. This was an independent mechanic though.
Is that an option if I don't get satisfaction at the dealer. Can I have an independant mechanic do warranty work if they are certified or will that void warranty?
I really want to do the right thing, but I don't want to get brushed off as an over sensitive, felling things that aren't there customer. I am worried that after 36,000 miles I will get the old. We found out the problem. It is the disconbobulator and it will now cost $1,000 to fix it.
Please lend any advice on my steps in the service department.
Thank you.
I
The 2004 V70R will be available with a 6 spd manual and AWD, but it will be @ $45-50000.
You know, I have had trouble with the vehicle ever since I left Texas. Guess it didn't want to leave. I got up the road 200 miles and the hot tranny light came on. Found out thanks to a great service manager in Arizona that it was the PCM. Got all the way to Alaska, it ran great, and went in for an oil change and they found the differential leaking. Repaired that and then this vibration thing started. Also had a vibration noise coming from passenger rear quarter and they said it was the muffler hanger so they adjusted it. We'll see if that does it.
Tahoe runs great in snow and ice. Auto 4WD works fantastic. Get a clunking from rear end ever now and then when taking off.
Zues can an independent mechanic do warranty work on this if the dealer wont work with me?
Or better yet, how can I make the service guys work with me. Can I insist and they have to do the work even if they don't feel anything is wrong?
I deal with this stuff every day, unfortunately.
There are multiple TSBs published concerning the idle and drivability of your engine/transmission combination.
Have the service guys look up TSBs #000603009 and 020604023A. These both address engine management issues and overlap the condition you're describing.
Most of all, be calm, talk to the service manager, empathise with the fact that you know his guys are trying - then, if that doesn't work, contact the BBB or an attorney, preferably the latter.
Just my .02, maybe things are different up here since there is such a limited amount of dealers in the state.
I've had people take a vehicle to their brother-in-law's shop, have him do $900 in repairs, then want their money reimbursed through the manufacturer. Doesn't work that way.
Has your Winter been as miserable as ours in Mass?
Nope, no VW anymore, I miss it, but not the speeding tickets. I'm driving a tank, er, a 1990 Suburban, its paid for and protests when asked to go over 70 mph, so I figure no more speeding tickets. I do miss my Jetta, maybe will get another one someday, but for now am enjoying no car payments.
I've been around, just going through some rough times and kind of avoided Edmunds for a while, but I'm back now. Thanks for thinking of me, glad to know I wasn't forgotten.
Steve
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The cynic in me says it is so they can run a credit check on you while you are out test driving.
I'm curious if dealers in other states have the same practice or if they just want to make sure you have a license before letting you take their cars out.
The funniest was one dealer where the salesman had to, and again for "insurance purposes" drive the car off the lot and then park somewhere and we would change so I could drive.
As for the sales person driving first, some stores prefer this so that A: They can take you on a route that is safe and variable enough for most test drives (although if you want to try it somewhere else, you should be able to) and B: It gives you (the customer) time to get used to the vehicle and pay attention to details that you may not be able to while driving a vehicle you're not familiar with.
Ken
With two of the dealerships I worked for, our insurance company prohibited a consumer operating a new/used (inventory) vehicle on our property. The salesman would drive it off the lot, turn it over to you, then after his/her "certification" of your driving ability, you could drive back onto the lot.
Don't blame the car dealer, blame the insurance companies.
As far as running your credit goes, you know there are pretty stiff penalties for running your credit without your permission. Any dealer that does this certainly doesn't deserve your business.
I had an interesting argument with a customer about running credit when he was paying with a check on the weekend.
He blew a gasket because I wanted to see his credit history before taking the check. I said, "It's simple and I mean no offense, but if I gave you $100 in 20s, you'd count it and I wouldn't be offended because I could have counted wrong. You're giving me a check for $27,000 and taking our car - if the check bounces, we don't have a deal - then I've got a new car with miles on it - it's just good business practice".
I'm not faulting the dealer for "driving off the property rule", but like you said, it's the insurance companies.
And Zues, whenever I have bought a car ('83, '90, and '98) I have given the dealer a bank certified check. I doubt that any dealers around here accept personal checks.
"In God we trust, all others pay cash." For all you know, that check could have been as worthless as the Maginot Line.
Walk into a bank and try to cash a personal check and they want all sorts of ID. Send a bank draft to be processed and you can get the money in two shakes. The system is a nightmare.