Saw an interesting looking car on the road today. But.....All I could see on the back was "Murango". Have searched the internet but could not find anything on Murango. Would like to know who makes this car.
And I think its the best looking SUV on the market. What I really like about it is that the styling is controversial. So many bland vehicles out there, do we really need another one? Glad Nissan thought the same thing.
It hasn't got there for me yet. I have my SUV though, my next will probably be more a sportscar. The Aztek never has grown on me though. I had a Vibe for a rental this week. It looks like a Jr. Aztek. I rent alot of cars so I get to take alot of extended test drives. The Vibe was not that impressive to me.
I agree, there's no way some cars will grow on you. Murano doesn't look too bad, it seems to me all of Nissan's new vehicles are falling into the Love 'em or you hate 'em category. The Maxima, and Quest Minivan are both on the edge. Looks like they were rejected mock-ups for a not-too-distant-future sci fi movie.
Sorry for all the inquiries but I've never sold a car to a private party before.
1. When they ask to take the truck to their mechanic for inspection, do I go with them? Ask them to leave their car with me? Copy their license? Just afraid I might never see my truck again.
2. What sort of payment do I accept? Is it inconsiderate to demand a specific type of payment?
I play the 'take it to be looked at' by ear. If the buyer comes in a car that's worth something and are gonna leave it, I'll get a copy of the license let 'em go alone.
Every buyer I've sold to has expected to pay cash. Some have left a check as a deposit (car stays with me) while they go to the bank, etc.; but there's no offense given/taken about exchanging the long green.
You'll want to be prepared with a title, if you need that in your state, and a simple bill of sale - so your buyer can title the car.
You go on the test drive with them. I'm not being an alarmist here, just careful. I don't care how honest someone looks - you don't trust your brother-in-law to drive your truck to the store, so why trust a total stranger with your valuable piece of property??
Not directly related, but a buddy of mine was selling his motorcycle (Suzuki GSX-R 750) a while back and two guys showed up after calling about the ad and asking a few questions.
The guy who was the buyer got on the bike, fired it up as the seller and buyer (and his buddy) were talking. The guy was going to take it around the block.
After the guy didn't come back for a few minutes, the "buddy" showed the seller his gun and explained that if he called the cops right away, they'd come back and kill him. He waited an hour to call.
Granted, this is in the Philly area, but it could happen anywhere. Have a friend or relative with you, don't let your truck out of your sight until you have the money and preferably, meet in a common area, like a fast food restaurant.
I once sold my jetski and the buyer and I went to their bank where she was getting the loan from and the bank actually cut me a check and took care of the paper work - EXTREMELY EASY. If this new potential buyer has other financing methods, what paperwork do I need (have clear title w/ me but Bill of Sale?, live in Houston, TX).
as far as secuirty - maybe I'll fib and say I'm a police detective!
ps - asking $18,500 so would like but be a bit nervous w/ this amount of green in my pocket!
Dunno about Houstan, but Memphis is kinda rough; and I've never been afraid to have a buyer come look at my home. Just keeping the radar going and acting accordingly has been enough for me. Most folks are decent, but you do need to stay alert.
With multi-$K on the table, I'd wanna finish the sale at a bank - theirs or mine - and have a bank check. Having the title to fill out, a bill of sale for the buyer (just simple - VIN#, cash as-is sale, date), and a receipt for the buyer to sign (simple, again) is how I'd go. In the low likelyhood the buyer gets creamed on thwe way home, you don't wanna have to get your insurance co. involved.
From the knowledgeable responses (that is, none), looks like lanzz's problem with the dealer's service department was a no-win situation for a car owner.
I've already stated I'm not getting further involved, for two primary reasons:
1) We don't have all the facts - the other side of the story, since I refuse to go on this guy's word that he acted like an angel, plus, the timeline and story are his version only.
2) Each time I try to look at it from both sides of the service desk, I get jumped on - I'm not interested in dealing with either aspect....
I let people go by themselves for several reasons, and I'm not concerned about them lifting the car. If you have a decent insurance company, you'll in most cases get more for the car from the insurance company than you will selling it.
When I got my G20t stolen, I got enough from the insurance company to step up to a J30, same year, half the miles. Course, I missed the manny tranny.
I believe that's the story - no good outcome available at those dealers. The saving grace is that there are a bunch of dealers around. Salesguy or service guy, if he/she has too much business to provide good service, there's a perfect fix for that. Moving on makes everybody happier. Loyalty goes both ways.
Chile, for that amount of money, insist on a bank check (will cost the buyer a few bucks depending on the bank, mine charges $15). Banks generally accept bank checks as "overnight cash" regardless of where the funds are drawn - it's an internal courtesy measure in the industry.
As far as a Bill Of Sale, you can get them at any office supply store (Staples, Office Depot, etc). Make sure it is filled out completely with name/address/phone of both parties, year/make/model/VIN of the car, and odometer mileage. And very important, the words "Vehicle sold AS IS with no implied or express warranty" are included in clear view. This protects you from the buyer coming back and saying something was broken and you should pay for it.
Also here's a nice little sentence that can be also used: ** Buyer Understands and Agree's, that there is nothing owed and nothing promised. ** X ___________________
I just ran into a deal when I sold my GXSR750 last September - the kid decided the next week that it was too much bike for him - he'd also done some damage to it from dropping it.
My disclosure mentioned "no warranty or repairs promised"..."no additional merchandise promised"..."sale is final"...."as-is"..etc - his dad called in a huff because I wouldn't take the bike back - AFTER it had been dropped. I told him to have his lawyer call my lawyer, and gave my boss a copy of the bill of sale. Never heard from him again.
I'm very interested in getting a new VW Jetta....but I am also very specific on the model I want. I want a Jetta GL 1.8T 5-speed manual, which the dealer I went to is telling me may be difficult to locate (they only have an automatic GL 1.8T in stock, which I do not want to pay the extra money for). I know that the dealer will get a $500 cash rebate from VW till the end of this week if I purchase a car from them and finance through VW credit.
Do any of you dealers think it's feasible for me to have my local VW dealer locate the car I want, have it brought to the dealership, and sell it to me for at or below invoice cost? My reasoning is that the dealership should be able to sell me the car even at $500 below invoice and still make their 2% dealer holdback (around $375 in this case). Ultimately I would like to keep my purchase price at or below invoice cost.
Also, they do have a GL 2.0L 4-speed automatic that I would consider purchasing if they can't locate the GL 1.8T manual that I really want. Would it be fair for me to tell them I will pay either invoice cost for the GL 1.8T that I want (they would make $500 + $375 holdback), or $500 below invoice for a GL 4-speed automatic that they have in stock (they would make around $375 for holdback)? Or am I asking too low??
Thanks in advance for helping a first-time new car buyer
Do you really NOT allow test drives on those type of vehicles. Or was it the appearance of his age and clothing that lead you to decline his test request?
Wow, I'm not a car dealer; but I like to think of myself as very fair-minded...and from my consumer point of view, you're asking quite a bit from a dealer.
You want them to go to another dealer to get your car (shouldn't be a big problem), work out an exchange with that dealer, and then haul it back for you, etc. Keep in mind that the original dealer is the one that gets the holdback. So if your Jetta comes from a dealer across town, THEY are the ones that get the holdback...not the dealer you are dealing with. (hope that makes sense). At least, that's the way it's been explained to me....by several dealers.
That's the reason that holdback is really never discussed or entered into the equation with a buyer. It's back-end money, not front-end money -- the dealer only sees it quarterly. So if a dealer would rebate or give up some of the holdback, they are actually out money that they don't even have yet.
If you can find a dealer willing to rebate you their holdback or dealer incentive money, then that's great...but I'd be willing to be there are very, very few dealers that will do that.
Generally we don't allow a test drive on a highline until pen has gone to paper and a downpayment has been received. The youngster was told that and refused to commit to the car in advance.
I got caught by a guy who likes to test drive lower end exotics and sports cars the other day. Took him out in a Boxster, he started describing all the cars he's test driven recently...had him take a left, then another, then right into the parking lot.
OK...well I did find some dealers within 25 miles that have pretty much the exact car I want. One of the dealers is selling lots of his Jettas at invoice cost. Maybe I will go to him and try to get invoice price on a car that he carries. I feel bad having wasted the original dealer's time, but I do want to get the best deal possible. Like I said, if I can get the car I want at invoice price, I will be happy....and the dealer will still make around $900 if they have the car in stock...so it would seem fair to me (although I am not a dealer so I don't know what is "fair" for them).
Maybe you need to scan the incentives pages at edmunds. I know Hondas seem to be doing ok, but almost every other make has some kind of rebate or low interest financing. Yes, sales are soft for everyone. I as a customer would expect that if a car has a big rebate or 0% apr that the car should be sold to me close to invoice minus rebate. If they were consistently selling for $300-$500 or more over invoice, why have a rebate?
I have a friend looking at an 02 Ford ZX2, its a leftover and has 54 miles on it. MSRP is $16,710, there is a 2500 rebate on it, invoice is in the $15,800 area. What would be a fair price for this car? I'm thinking $12,500 after the rebate and all.
Its really just a good example of the law of supply and demand. As long as the demand is lower than the supply, you will have to offer big rebates and good financing to sell cars. As the market improves and people start buying more, you will easily be able to raise interest rates and prices as well as drop rebates. If the market were to stay like this forever, you would have to keep high rebates and low interest rates forever. Why would you think you couldn't raise interest rates or prices when the demand goes back up?
Another way automakers could facilitate this is to cut the supply (reduce production) and bring things more into balance.
Because the mfr is creating a false demand for their products. People are being pulled to a particular product by the rebates or low financing. Once they are gone so is most of the demand. Its the promotion more than the product that is creating the demand.
And a big reason the rebates exist at all is to keep the factories running. Closing factories is more expensive in the long run than offering rebates or cheap financing.
Rebates are the lesser of two evils but it's still an evil and as Craig said, it will come back to haunt the automakers. Time will certainly tell.
...that would be quite a drive seeing as though I need to stop first in Grand Rapids, then in St Looie. I'd better get a darned good deal to recoup all those travel expenses. If I had the time, it'd be a pretty fun roadie. Anyway, I'm really only looking at an '03; just surprised to hear of so many leftover '02's hanging around but thanks for all the heads up folks. One more week and I can really begin "seriously" shopping and end the obsessive professional researching...still seeking help for that ;-/
that you are pulling in more demand than you deserve with these incentives and it will hurt you in the short run after they start to go away because consumers will have just bought during this good buying time and will resist buying again for a while. However, the business will eventually come back even w/o incentives. For example, if Honda or Toyota who are perceived to have the best cars on the road start dropping their incentives when the economy starts improving, people will eventually buy them because they can't get that quality in any other make. I contend that Nissan is in that category too but they don't have quite the reputation as the other two. I know as a consumer, I have learned my lesson on American made cars. I will tend toward Honda/Toyota/Nissan even if they are a little more expensive because they are such good quality. Honda/Toyota/Nissan buyers don't buy on price alone. Their most important criteria is quality.
Well, I ended up getting a dealer farther away to give me invoice price on a Jetta they had in stock with some options I didn't really want to pay for (I did this negotiating via e-mail). I then told my local dealer that I was offered invoice price at another dealer, and they are now going to get me the EXACT Jetta that I want at invoice cost.
So I guess my offer wasn't that out of line afterall I'll be picking my new Jetta up on Thursday and I can't wait!
(This was posted earlier in the 'New or Used? Which do you think is more economical and Why? ' thread without a response)
Here's the $10 question
or maybe the $3000 question.
If I'm shopping for a late model used car, How much should I deduct for paintwork. Brentwoodvolvo poster gave an example where he took $3000 off of a late model Jaguar.
How about a 3 year old Honda with paintwork, or a 3 year old Taurus, or whatever. What would be the deduction (ballpark) ??
On your $29K Jauguar you took off $3000 or about 10 percent. Is that a good ballpark amount (10 %).
Will it reduce a 12K Toyota Camry by $1200 ? How do I bid this ??
I notice that looking at domestic used cars on new car lots that maybe 20 percent (or more) of the cars have had some paintwork. Maybe it's just a repainted bumper or a repainted door panel - whatever. How does this effect the price.
Also, There are all kind of paint jobs. From the $99 cheap job to the bet-the-farm 12 coats of primer and hand rubbed Primo paint job. Quality must have an effect. Can you say some words about that.
While I'm at it, I notice that a few new car dealers when they sell used cars prep them using a rotary buffer that puts very noticeable swirl marks on every used car on the lot. How does this effect the price.
He's probably comparing that to some domestic makes as many are offereing 0% right now. I also agree with Terry that he is insane. I got 2.9% on my Infiniti last year when all the domestics were at 0%. I thought it was worth it to get what I think is a better quality and more reliable vehicle. Maybe he views Subaru equivalent to domestics but not better. Did he buy or not?
Thanks to all who have helped me sell my current vehicle privately - all the ads started today and am waiting for the phone to start ringing - is it plugged in?!?!
Anyway, as soon as someone purchases my rig, I will order the BMW and wait 6-8wks for delivery(nothing out there is exactly how I want it). There are 4 dealerships in town, 2 of which I have already spoken with a saleman as my fiancee is about to order her 325i. How can I negotiate the best price on an order w/o being rude and being fair. Will salesmen deal a little more if you mention you are ordering 2 cars? Keep in mind, Houston is big and don't want to spend all day driving from lot to lot.
My friend who used to sell Mercedes(cutthroat guy), suggested I fax all dealerships a letter indicating what I want and some low figure what I'd be willing to pay(like 5% over invoice). Tell them the first to respond will receive a downpayment immediately. Sounds good but also feel like I'd be backstabbing the 2 salesmen I've already been talking with(even though one did piss me off).
I also fear that if I use the above method that they'll just try and make up for the profit loss with the finance guy. Guess I'll get preapproved at a bank/CU beforehand.
Finally, if one of them tries and sticks me w/ dealer prep fees, ad fees, etc.. should I just walk away or what? - I've heard these are usually bogus add-ons.
Finally got the O K from wifey and will be looking to buy within the next month or so,have to wait until tax season ends as she is quite busy with her clients. The 4 contenders are: 1. Corolla 2. Protege 3. Sentra 4. Lancer Went to see the insurance man this morning and all these cars will lower my insurance rate by about $70./year after we put our teenager on the other car. Am leaning toward getting the Corolla, as I've had good luck with the 2 I've owned. When figuring my OTD price, is 3% to 4% profit over invoice a fair place to start? Any help here would be appreciated.
FWIW don't worry over 1% of invoice, look at the bigger picture that is to say TCO. Should help you to narrow your choice at least. After that, better the devil you know...
I'll make the choice based on which car wifey and I can agree on. Since it will be her car after about 6 months or so, she has to enjoy it as much as I do. What's TCO? I just want to be fair to the salesman and figured the 3% to 4% would make everyone happy. I know I still have to add on TTL after that, but I want to enjoy this experience and not have any buyers remorse!
I love this... Mitsubishi now has 0,0,0 That is 0% for 6 years, 0 payments for 1 year, 0 money down. Now if you get sick of the car after 2 years, aren't you in some serious inequity trouble? You sure are..... I had a lady call me looking for a camry, she told me she did the deal with mitsubishi about a year ago. She has not made a single payment and no money down when she bought it. Her $24,000 vehicle in KBB Good Condition now was worth $13,720. "Mam, you need $10,000 down to cover the inequity" "I only have $500 down she said" 0% is good, but keep the vehicle!! And put cash down so your obligation is less to the creditor.
The guy didn't buy, he was just there to check out the Esperante we'd parked in front of the store. Panoz dreams and maybe a Subaru budget. We chatted for a bit before he asked the finance question.
is that EVERYONE has come toexpect them, regardless of credit. I'm aware that "old school" wisdom tells us not to get into rate quoting over the phone or net, but, in defference to what I hear from customers and see on the boards, I try to give my customers realistic quotes based on their credit (if I have it), or, give a range based on "good to average" credit. I CAN'T COUNT the number of times I have been laughed at over the phone when quoting "real world" rates on cars w/o special financing. (And sometimes on those with it as in Raybear's post) After pulling credit, and getting 6.5% on 72 months on a USED car, I had a customer laugh out loud and say "You've got to be #$%@# kidding me! Do I sound like a dumb%#@ to you? I just ...I've never been..... Why do you.... (several stutters and pauses) Never mind, you guys are a joke, I'm just gonna go buy from (competitor's name). *click*" I also have 3 customers with bad credit who are too angry to return my calls or emails, after financing ran into the teens. People seem to think that regardless of credit, they should qualify for 0% on 60 months, no money down, etc....
Comments
Drive one. I think you'll like it.
1. When they ask to take the truck to their mechanic for inspection, do I go with them? Ask them to leave their car with me? Copy their license? Just afraid I might never see my truck again.
2. What sort of payment do I accept? Is it inconsiderate to demand a specific type of payment?
Thanks for all the help guys(and girls?)!
Every buyer I've sold to has expected to pay cash. Some have left a check as a deposit (car stays with me) while they go to the bank, etc.; but there's no offense given/taken about exchanging the long green.
You'll want to be prepared with a title, if you need that in your state, and a simple bill of sale - so your buyer can title the car.
Not directly related, but a buddy of mine was selling his motorcycle (Suzuki GSX-R 750) a while back and two guys showed up after calling about the ad and asking a few questions.
The guy who was the buyer got on the bike, fired it up as the seller and buyer (and his buddy) were talking. The guy was going to take it around the block.
After the guy didn't come back for a few minutes, the "buddy" showed the seller his gun and explained that if he called the cops right away, they'd come back and kill him. He waited an hour to call.
Granted, this is in the Philly area, but it could happen anywhere. Have a friend or relative with you, don't let your truck out of your sight until you have the money and preferably, meet in a common area, like a fast food restaurant.
as far as secuirty - maybe I'll fib and say I'm a police detective!
ps - asking $18,500 so would like but be a bit nervous w/ this amount of green in my pocket!
With multi-$K on the table, I'd wanna finish the sale at a bank - theirs or mine - and have a bank check. Having the title to fill out, a bill of sale for the buyer (just simple - VIN#, cash as-is sale, date), and a receipt for the buyer to sign (simple, again) is how I'd go. In the low likelyhood the buyer gets creamed on thwe way home, you don't wanna have to get your insurance co. involved.
Thanks anyway.
1) We don't have all the facts - the other side of the story, since I refuse to go on this guy's word that he acted like an angel, plus, the timeline and story are his version only.
2) Each time I try to look at it from both sides of the service desk, I get jumped on - I'm not interested in dealing with either aspect....
When I got my G20t stolen, I got enough from the insurance company to step up to a J30, same year, half the miles. Course, I missed the manny tranny.
Loyalty goes both ways.
As far as a Bill Of Sale, you can get them at any office supply store (Staples, Office Depot, etc). Make sure it is filled out completely with name/address/phone of both parties, year/make/model/VIN of the car, and odometer mileage. And very important, the words "Vehicle sold AS IS with no implied or express warranty" are included in clear view. This protects you from the buyer coming back and saying something was broken and you should pay for it.
kcram
Host
Smart Shopper and FWI Message Boards
Also here's a nice little sentence that can be also used: ** Buyer Understands and Agree's, that there is nothing owed and nothing promised. **
X ___________________
Terry.
My disclosure mentioned "no warranty or repairs promised"..."no additional merchandise promised"..."sale is final"...."as-is"..etc - his dad called in a huff because I wouldn't take the bike back - AFTER it had been dropped. I told him to have his lawyer call my lawyer, and gave my boss a copy of the bill of sale. Never heard from him again.
He wanted to test drive the Ferrari we had on display. I told him no.
He was insulted that we don't allow test drives on cars like that. Wanted to know how we could stay in business.
Do any of you dealers think it's feasible for me to have my local VW dealer locate the car I want, have it brought to the dealership, and sell it to me for at or below invoice cost? My reasoning is that the dealership should be able to sell me the car even at $500 below invoice and still make their 2% dealer holdback (around $375 in this case). Ultimately I would like to keep my purchase price at or below invoice cost.
Also, they do have a GL 2.0L 4-speed automatic that I would consider purchasing if they can't locate the GL 1.8T manual that I really want. Would it be fair for me to tell them I will pay either invoice cost for the GL 1.8T that I want (they would make $500 + $375 holdback), or $500 below invoice for a GL 4-speed automatic that they have in stock (they would make around $375 for holdback)? Or am I asking too low??
Thanks in advance for helping a first-time new car buyer
You want them to go to another dealer to get your car (shouldn't be a big problem), work out an exchange with that dealer, and then haul it back for you, etc. Keep in mind that the original dealer is the one that gets the holdback. So if your Jetta comes from a dealer across town, THEY are the ones that get the holdback...not the dealer you are dealing with. (hope that makes sense). At least, that's the way it's been explained to me....by several dealers.
That's the reason that holdback is really never discussed or entered into the equation with a buyer. It's back-end money, not front-end money -- the dealer only sees it quarterly. So if a dealer would rebate or give up some of the holdback, they are actually out money that they don't even have yet.
If you can find a dealer willing to rebate you their holdback or dealer incentive money, then that's great...but I'd be willing to be there are very, very few dealers that will do that.
I got caught by a guy who likes to test drive lower end exotics and sports cars the other day. Took him out in a Boxster, he started describing all the cars he's test driven recently...had him take a left, then another, then right into the parking lot.
You need to bear in mind that it's the prevailing market that determines what a dealer will be willing to sell a car for.
Many times a shopper will determine for themselves what is "fair". When they can't buy the car for that they are frustrated.
A dealer would be foolish to cheap sell a hot selling car that's in short supply.
Buyers will expect and demand these to continue forever as they forget who really pays for them.
But, what do I know...?
Another way automakers could facilitate this is to cut the supply (reduce production) and bring things more into balance.
Even in "better" times.
Nissan may be the best example of this.
And a big reason the rebates exist at all is to keep the factories running. Closing factories is more expensive in the long run than offering rebates or cheap financing.
Rebates are the lesser of two evils but it's still an evil and as Craig said, it will come back to haunt the automakers. Time will certainly tell.
Regards... Vikd
He said, "Gee, that's high!"
So I guess my offer wasn't that out of line afterall
Terry.
(This was posted earlier in the 'New or Used? Which do you think is more economical and Why? ' thread without a response)
Here's the $10 question
or maybe the $3000 question.
If I'm shopping for a late model used car, How much should I deduct for paintwork. Brentwoodvolvo poster gave an example where he took $3000 off of a late model Jaguar.
How about a 3 year old Honda with paintwork, or a 3 year old Taurus, or whatever. What would be the deduction (ballpark) ??
On your $29K Jauguar you took off $3000 or about 10 percent. Is that a good ballpark amount (10 %).
Will it reduce a 12K Toyota Camry by $1200 ? How do I bid this ??
I notice that looking at domestic used cars on new car lots that maybe 20 percent (or more) of the cars have had some paintwork. Maybe it's just a repainted bumper or a repainted door panel - whatever. How does this effect the price.
Also, There are all kind of paint jobs. From the $99 cheap job to the bet-the-farm 12 coats of primer and hand rubbed Primo paint job. Quality must have an effect. Can you say some words about that.
While I'm at it, I notice that a few new car dealers when they sell used cars prep them using a rotary buffer that puts very noticeable swirl marks on every used car on the lot. How does this effect the price.
Thanks for your advice.
Anyway, as soon as someone purchases my rig, I will order the BMW and wait 6-8wks for delivery(nothing out there is exactly how I want it). There are 4 dealerships in town, 2 of which I have already spoken with a saleman as my fiancee is about to order her 325i. How can I negotiate the best price on an order w/o being rude and being fair. Will salesmen deal a little more if you mention you are ordering 2 cars? Keep in mind, Houston is big and don't want to spend all day driving from lot to lot.
My friend who used to sell Mercedes(cutthroat guy), suggested I fax all dealerships a letter indicating what I want and some low figure what I'd be willing to pay(like 5% over invoice). Tell them the first to respond will receive a downpayment immediately. Sounds good but also feel like I'd be backstabbing the 2 salesmen I've already been talking with(even though one did piss me off).
I also fear that if I use the above method that they'll just try and make up for the profit loss with the finance guy. Guess I'll get preapproved at a bank/CU beforehand.
Finally, if one of them tries and sticks me w/ dealer prep fees, ad fees, etc.. should I just walk away or what? - I've heard these are usually bogus add-ons.
Thanks in advance!
GODBLESS OUR TROOPS!
1. Corolla
2. Protege
3. Sentra
4. Lancer
Went to see the insurance man this morning and all these cars will lower my insurance rate by about $70./year after we put our teenager on the other car.
Am leaning toward getting the Corolla, as I've had good luck with the 2 I've owned.
When figuring my OTD price, is 3% to 4% profit over invoice a fair place to start? Any help here would be appreciated.
The Sandman :-)
What's TCO?
I just want to be fair to the salesman and figured the 3% to 4% would make everyone happy. I know I still have to add on TTL after that, but I want to enjoy this experience and not have any buyers remorse!
The Sandman :-)