Dealer's Tricks - bait & switch, etc.
Here's a variation of the "Bait and Switch" I
experienced in trying to buy a new car from a Ford
Dealership, Board Ford in Whittier California:
After a test drive of a 2001 Focus Wagon, we sat
down to discuss a price. Since I wanted the wagon
with the “comfort package”, anti-lock brakes, and
side air bags it was indicated that the car would
be hard to find, but that I could order the exact
car I wanted. The price I was quoted was “$100
over invoice”. I asked the salesman if he could
write down the price details for me, but he
indicated that since it was the weekend he did not
have access to these numbers. I asked if there
would be any other costs added other than the
destination charge and tax and license. I was
assured there would not be any other costs added to
the price. I went away and then sent an e-mail to
the salesman, listing the invoice price plus the
invoice prices of the options I wanted, plus the
destination charge (I got this information
edmunds.com), added $100, and asked for a
confirmation of this price. The salesman responded
it would be a little bit more, adding an adverting
fee, gasoline fee and some other miscellaneous
fees. This added about $75, but I was not going to
quibble about this and responded I would be in to
order the car and submit a deposit. When I showed
up to order the car, the order form indicated a car
equipped with a five-speed stick instead of an
automatic transmission. I said I wanted an
automatic transmission and I had not mentioned this
before because in the Focus Brochure it indicated
that the automatic transmission was standard
equipment. I was told that the automatic
transmission was an option and would add $725 to
the price. The sales manager indicated that this
was a change that took place after the brochure was
printed. They insisted that the automatic
transmission was not standard equipment, this is in
spite of the fact that:
· The Focus Brochure indicates the automatic
transmission is Standard Equipment,
· The window sticker on the Focus Wagon I drove at
indicates the automatic transmission is Standard
Equipment,
· The Ford Motor Company Internet site at
"www.ford.com" indicates the automatic transmission
is Standard Equipment.
As far as I am concerned, a Ford Dealership and
all its employees are representatives of the Ford
Motor Company. If, in fact, the automatic
transmission is an option, this indicates that
there is false advertising on the part of the
dealership and the Ford Motor Company. If the
automatic transmission is standard equipment, then
it indicates an out and out lie on the part of the
dealership.
RAP
experienced in trying to buy a new car from a Ford
Dealership, Board Ford in Whittier California:
After a test drive of a 2001 Focus Wagon, we sat
down to discuss a price. Since I wanted the wagon
with the “comfort package”, anti-lock brakes, and
side air bags it was indicated that the car would
be hard to find, but that I could order the exact
car I wanted. The price I was quoted was “$100
over invoice”. I asked the salesman if he could
write down the price details for me, but he
indicated that since it was the weekend he did not
have access to these numbers. I asked if there
would be any other costs added other than the
destination charge and tax and license. I was
assured there would not be any other costs added to
the price. I went away and then sent an e-mail to
the salesman, listing the invoice price plus the
invoice prices of the options I wanted, plus the
destination charge (I got this information
edmunds.com), added $100, and asked for a
confirmation of this price. The salesman responded
it would be a little bit more, adding an adverting
fee, gasoline fee and some other miscellaneous
fees. This added about $75, but I was not going to
quibble about this and responded I would be in to
order the car and submit a deposit. When I showed
up to order the car, the order form indicated a car
equipped with a five-speed stick instead of an
automatic transmission. I said I wanted an
automatic transmission and I had not mentioned this
before because in the Focus Brochure it indicated
that the automatic transmission was standard
equipment. I was told that the automatic
transmission was an option and would add $725 to
the price. The sales manager indicated that this
was a change that took place after the brochure was
printed. They insisted that the automatic
transmission was not standard equipment, this is in
spite of the fact that:
· The Focus Brochure indicates the automatic
transmission is Standard Equipment,
· The window sticker on the Focus Wagon I drove at
indicates the automatic transmission is Standard
Equipment,
· The Ford Motor Company Internet site at
"www.ford.com" indicates the automatic transmission
is Standard Equipment.
As far as I am concerned, a Ford Dealership and
all its employees are representatives of the Ford
Motor Company. If, in fact, the automatic
transmission is an option, this indicates that
there is false advertising on the part of the
dealership and the Ford Motor Company. If the
automatic transmission is standard equipment, then
it indicates an out and out lie on the part of the
dealership.
RAP
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Comments
They do have that standard disclaimer that states the "information contained herein subject to change without notice..."; all manufacturers use the same language. This is usually meant to cover availability of colors and minor optional equipment and such, NOT a major standard feature!
Unfortunately, other than reporting them to the BBB and taking your business elsewhere, I doubt if you have immediate recourse. In the absence of a signed order form with pricing filled in, there's no way to enforce the "deal." Even with paper, the same kind of disclaimer exists to protect the dealership from cost increases imposed by the manufacturer during the period prior to delivery.
You will probably find the Ford Motor Company absolutely NO help in this matter, but you could try to get a representative involved.
Take your business to someone else who really deserves it!
Best,
Mark
After many people (true car nuts) "demanded" a stick in the wagon they gave in and made the stick "standard" and the A/T optional on the 2001 models. Looks to me like the sales rep, typically, did not know what the heck he was doing when he filled out your order. I know the results are the same as far as you are concerned but it probably was not a deliberate effort on his part to "low ball" you on the price. Just the typical "crapola" that one encounters from most dealers today. This is not confined just to car dealers tho as most places you go anymore to buy something do not have a clue as to what they are doing.
Floridian
And this www.carbuyingtips.com is nothing new. Just one of the MANY redundant web sites that offer "expert" advise....yawn....
The car salespeople who inhabit this board seem to resent it when someone points out points of useful informatoin, like carbuyingtips.com.
My expeience after doing my homework, very seriously, here and elsewhere, was that I was able to obtain a new vehicle below invoice.
I negotiated that price based on a factory order.
Patient, knowledge and assertive peristence really paid off for me and has for many others.
Don't be put off by the silly attitude you get here from some salespeople. Naturally, they are defensive of their industry. While personally they may be wonderful guys, the sad reality is that the process of buying a new car is ranked as the number two most bothersome and troubling consumer experiences!
Good luck and good hunting.
There is no excuse for it.
Auntie may have "Assumed".... She might have forgotten about sales tax or title transfer fees. Perhaps she failed to pay attention.
As you say, "still take car...totally outlandish.." - I agree. It must not have been off more than $25 I bet. But, I would be hard pressed to walk for $25 bucks (after probably investing hours on the purchase).
I'd like to have more facts. hingram's story is lacking these...it sounds fishy.
Knolwedge is power. It is too bad your aunt didn't have the resource of Edmunds or Consumers' Report or www.carbuyingtips.com.
When I got up there and found a nice PreRunner...just the color the wife liked, etc...
When we got into negotations, we were far off. When I brought up the $1,000 cash off on Tacomas...their response was: "That dosen't apply to PreRunners".
I was out of there quicker than a cat could lick it's butt...
Ford got my money and Toyota did me a favor - I scored a better truck and it cost less. The Ford delearship is on Thornton Road in Atlanta/Lithia Springs. Pretty good place IMO.
Rob
But, I also agree. Pull a fast one on me and I'm out of there!
The problem is, some sleazy dealers pull these tricks knowing that in many cases, the weary customer will simply cave in and go along.
so..they get REWARDED for being dishonest!
An example...in my neck of the woods we have a lot of competing Honda dealers along with a lot of well educated internet savvy shoppers who delight in pitting ne dealer against the other.
That's fine and dandy except it sets them up big time for a lowball. some salespeople delight in messing with a price shopper like that.
So, the weary shopper makes phone call after phone call, and finally finds the "lowest" price.
They drive 30 miles to pick up their new Civic.
" Didn't you want a 5 speed?...I thought that's what you asked me for....sorry, automatics cost more" BINGO!
Now, many customers will simply know they were snookered and storm out. Sadly, many others, totally tired of the process will cave in and end up buying the automatic.
I have to deal with this every day. This is why we will not quote prices over the phone!
Both are good trucks, but the normal 2WD probably wasn't selling as fast as Toyota wanted, hence the $1000 cash back. The add probably had a disclaimer in small print that you can't read on TV. And, yes, as a salesman my number one goal from a phone inquiry of any type, get the customer to come down to the store...
Rob
I think we got a pretty fair deal, because our offers of $17300 and $17350 had been refused at two other nearby dealers.
Three years later, we still love the car.
In some stores, managers listen in to the "phone pops" to make sure they're being handled properly. Handled properly = get the customer in.
When I was selling I wouldn't lie (unless the customer was being a jerk on the phone, then I'd go into the classic pre-defined script), but your question, if it did not specifically ask about a certain model, would have been answered by me truthfully, if perhaps incompletely.
When's the best time for us to talk more about this - morning or afternoon?
I would never attempt to lure anybody in my giving out false information on the phone. for one thing, that's not me. Also, I don't want a ticked off customer to deal with. These are the things that give us a bad reputation.
It CAN be tempting, however...when a real cheapskate gets nasty over the phone attempting to pit one dealer against another...or lies.." ABC Honda will sell me that Civic for 14,000"
A price that is far below what we paid for it.
I don't need it!
Dealers/salesmen who want to sell vehicles will work with you over the phone or fax or e-mail.
So, go for it. Do your homework here and other places and then be assertive.
Good luck.
Oops...sorry, I did promise to ignore him!
It is good to have sellers here so we can see how they think.
Buyers beware. Do your research and then get a great deal. You can do it.
Good Work Bill
know whether the rebate applied to Prerunners
specifically, or just the generic Tacoma?"
After seeing the TV commercial, I felt the $1,000 cash back was on the level. Just to make sure, I phoned the Toyota Dealership. Everyone was in a meeting there, so I called another Metro dealership. They are covered under the same "blanket".
The sales person answered "Yes" when I asked if Tacomas had the $1,000 off as stated in the TV advertisement.
I also asked the sales person if they had any Prerunners left. He said, "Yes we have two."
I did not specifically ask him if the rebate applied to Prerunners. I just assumed "all" Tacomas....that was my bad. I should have asked about it. I tricked myself.
A good shopper or buyer has to be fully up to snuff on the dynamics of new car market. As one poster said, "...too bad the occasion only comes once or twice in a decade..".
Anyone who dosen't have knowledge and can't pay attention to detail in this "game" will have to pay extra...and that's good for business...
Signed: learned the hard way and still learning.
It is a lot better to determine the price you are willing to pay for a car, and then just ask the salesman if they will accept that price.
Even then, you will have to wait a few minutes while he talks to the sales manager, and then he will not probably not tell you that your offer has been refused. He will try to convince you that your offer should be increased, without specifically rejecting your offer.
However, if you ask a direct question like, "Will you accept my offer, yes or no?" you should get an answer.
If they say "No", then you may choose to believe him and increase your offer. On the other hand, you may start to walk out, and, from my experience, they may decide to accept your offer.
However, they might decide not to accept your offer. In that case, you have only wasted a few minutes of your time, but you have learned that your offer would definitely not be accepted. That information will help you if you choose to make another offer in the future.
Now, when I read the thoughts of the resident sales people here (who I think are all straight shooters), I understand the reasons why they would avoid giving me numbers. The problem remains...how do I tell the difference between a straight-shooter and a shyster (sp?) without the risk of wasting time hiking to the showroom?
Is Bob's method the best alternative?
"Hi, Joe the sales manager, I'm a friend of Jim over at XYZ Motors and he told me that you were the best guy to talk to about a good deal on a 2001 whatever".
Careful, though. I saw one guy try this by calling the receptionist and browbeating her into giving out the name of the sales manager on duty. He then tried the routine with the manager, who saw through it in a second.
Use any contacts in the business that you may have, however slim they may seem.
You still need to make sure they understand that you know what a good deal is, because I know one manager in particular that salesmen always wanted a "spoon" from, they were ALWAYS at least $800 commissions. He would pound his friends harder than the regular customers.
Remember, they're the sales manager because at one time they were the best car salesman on the lot.
example,
Customer: Rich, I would prefer to avoid all the showroom bs and would prefer to deal with you to make an offer and if its acceptable ill be down to buy the car. The car I want to buy is stock number P3878, the blue Audi A6 quattro for $40,000 out the door....
Rich: "Come right down and bring your checkbook." Or I might counter offer once, but thats it. I don't have all day to deal directly with every customer. I have to worry about managing the whole dealership along with 20 salespeople....if the customer is prepared and ready to go the method can work. I turn the deal over to a salesperson the minute I hang up the phone. But, let me stress...nobody ever gets the cheapest price in town if they want to deal directly with me. maybe the quickest but not the lowest.
If the customer starts in with a slew of questions about the cars features, wants the trade appraised over the phone and other stuff that the salesperson should be doing I will pass the customer to a salesperson immediatly...
That is precisely how I have LEARNED to do business with dealerships. When I call, I have my financing and all other details in order, so that it's a simple yes or no question on a specific unit based on price.
Makes life easy for me and easy for the manager.
Two points to make here:
1. Fast and hassle free works for those who are market savvy. I count myself in that group (too confident?). I'm looking for a good deal, sure, but not the absolute lowest price I can possibly get anywhere. I make reasonable offers. Looking to get invoice plus 4% on the newest, hottest ride in town is definitely NOT a reasonable offer. It's not even an offer, really.
The grinder who will travel 50 miles and/or negotiate for three hours to save $200 bucks will probably be the same one who fails with this technique because their offer/expectation is unrealistic to begin with.
2. I was forced to adopt this approach not so much because I originally wanted to bypass the salesman, but rather because I found that the typical salesman on the Toyota/Honda/Chrysler/Ford level lots not only knew less than I about the product, but was more of a hindrance in achieving a mutually beneficial arrangement than a help.
As a side note, on one or more of these threads there's a sales guy who routinely posts the comment that regardless of whether or not you deal with the manager, the sale gets turned over to a salesperson. I believe his thought is that we are intent on NOT giving the salesperson ANY money out of the transaction. We don't care if a commission goes to the Janitor, just so that we don't have to put up with all the BS!
Let me know when you acquire a Chrysler dealership; there's an offer I'd like to make!!!
Best,
Mark
1. We wanted only two specific options, which we knew were available as stand alones. Called the Lexington KY dealer who told us: "Them Monteros only come one way-loaded! Can't order a stripper."
2. Heard a Cincinnati Dealers radio ad: "Every '94 Mitsubishi on sale at invoice." Called them(long distance, my dime). Salesman quotes me MSRP. I told him I thought there was an invoice sale. He sputters "Well, we'll negotiate down near invoice." Lying scum. In contrast, the BMW and Volvo dealers we have dealt with have been quite knowledgeable as well as honest.
Rich
And don't pay for any other crap like "rust proofing" or "paint treatment" or "fabric treatment." You can tell them, "You can spray that crap on or around but if you do I am not NOT paying for it."
EVERYTHING is negotiable. The one fee that you will rarely, if ever, have waved is the destination fee. That is a nationally imposed fee by the manufacturer. The ad fee is next the most difficult to have waived, but some are successful at that.
The processing fee is a "standard" fee that can be waived simply by saying, "No, I won't pay for you to fill out paperwork. That's the cost of doing business." Dealerships set different "processing fees." I've seen it go from $50 to $300.
The other crap definitely MUST be waived or you should walk, probably run, from that dealer. If they are deceitful and dishonest on the front end of a sale, just imagine how they will try to rip you off in their service department!
Whenever you think you have a great deal negotiated, have it put in writing, and then signed NOT by the salesman, but by an OFFICER of the dealership.
Good luck!
It's what I have come to think of as the 90's version of putting bananas in the crankcase (or was it sawdust-no, that was for transmissions).
Anyway, this was back in late 1998 when the wife and I were looking at new minivans. A local Dodge dealer had an ad in the paper with a really good price on a new Grand Caravan, equipped how we wanted one. The ad had a stock number in it, so it was good on that unit only.
We went to take a look at it on a cold night in December. We got a salesman and told him the van we were interested in, and asked him if it was still available. He went to check and came back with the keys.
We made our way out to the lot and found the van. He opened it up for us and we all got in because it was pretty cold. He got in the driver's seat and once we were all in, he started it up.
The engine sounded horrible! It knocked like an 85 Caravan with 130,000 miles on it! Even my wife could hear it, and her hearing is not too good.
Nobody said anything, my wife and I just kind of looked at each other like, do you hear that? The salesman quickly turned the radio on and turned the heater fan up to high and said "These really warm up fast!"
It was all I could do not to laugh. My wife and I kind of looked at each other out of the corner of our eyes, trying not to crack up.
We declined a test drive and had a good chuckle about it on the way home. We didn't end up buying a Caravan. I still have to admire that guy's salesmanship.
Dave
when an ad says ONE ONLY, beware. The slock dealerships run these ads to get the suckers in the door.
In the old days, I've heard stories of used cars being advertised at an artifically low price.
The buyer shows up to discover the car runs terrible. Someone may have done something like cross a couple of spark plug wires to create this.
Of course, the salesperson is quick to point out other cars that he has on the lot that run better!
But, I guess I would be surprised to see a dealership do something to a brand new car in order to create a "problem".
I suppose it's entirely possible.
Tricks like this are beyond being crooked!
When testing a car, turn off all that friggin crap they turn on. Listen to it....not the radio.
1. I research what vehicles will fit my needs and price range and then go test drive each.
2. I then narrow my choices down to the specific makes that have the options, features, ETC. that I want.
3. After I've picked the make, I go to the dealerships at night or on sundays so I can look without being bothered and pick out specific vehicles that have the color,options, ETC. that I want. I write down all info off of sticker along with prices.
4. I go home and figure numbers and also arrange financing with my local bank or credit union.
5. I go to the dealer and look over and test drive the exact vehicle that I've decided I want.
6. If I'm still happy with the vehicle I've selected, then I go inside to negotiate. I already have my figures written down with the highest amount I've decided I'll give for the vehicle. I don't play "I'll have to go talk to my manager game" a million times. I may let him do it a couple of times and then I tell him what my final offer is and if they don't accept I walk out. I don't want or have the time to play games all day. If they accept my offer, then we talk about my trade in if I have one. I have usually shopped my vehicle around at the local used lots and dealerships so I know what its worth. If they don't want to give me what its worth, I leave. I always make it plain that I don't need a new vehicle.
7. If we get to the financing stage, I let them see if they can match or beat my prearranged financing. If so, I'll finance through the dealer. I always have my payments figured out beforehand so I'll know what they will be for a few different interest rates.
8. After checking over all of the paperwork and the vehicle for the last time and its right, I sign the papers and take my new vehicle home.
I did this on my last two new vehicle purchases and it went very smoothly. From final test drive to signing the papers was about an hour and fifteen minutes. On my wife's $24,000 car and my $29,400 truck I paid $500 over invoice. I thought it was a fair deal for both parties.
I negotiate like this to save everyone time and to make sure I get what I feel is a fair deal. I also feel it give the dealer less chance to play games or tricks with me. As they say, "knowledge is Power" A little homework beforehand can save you hours of negotiating later at the dealership and possibly getting screwed somewhere in the deal. I do the things I do because my very first truck purchase was far from pleasant and I learned some valuable lessons about being prepared before you step inside to negotiate. I'm sure some of our resident "car salesmen" will have some negative things to say about how I negotiate but it works for me and I always get the deal I want.
Sounds like you've done your research and we'll complete the deal quickly as long as it's reasonable. Also sounds like you've done all of your due diligence on your part.
I have no problem with that at all, however it's the "I want the car at $2500 under invoice and I'll spend 2 hours test driving 7 different identical models" customer who then takes your price to go shop it who I dont much care for. Then, after you spned 2 hours on a busy saturday fighting with the desk to get them their price, which is well below market, they then walk right out on you and tell you that they will shop it against 10 other dealers. They then buy the car 400 miles away for $100 less.
That's the customer I dont like!
Bill
Like Bill, its the guy who read only half of the "how to buy a car" book and thinks he can get a new porsche spyder gt for $300 over invoice and will prove it to all his friends. hahaha
Rich
I'll usually suggest that they turn it off so they can hear the engine, etc.
I sold an ES300 to a couple who I actually liked working with a lot. Very pleasant and truly nice people who were fun to deal with. The key with them was nailing the car itself down (IS300? ES300?) but once that was done (He loved the IS300 but it was for her and she liked the ES) it was simple.
Out comes all of the 'net info.
I probably spent 5 mins in negotiations, and basically told the GSM "Look, I dont wanna grind this guy all day, he doesnt wanna grind us and neither do you if we can do $X, we'll wrap it up right now"
I got one conter which wasnt close to his price then we came to a mutual agreement. I didnt even bother discussing the counter seriously with him either. I've always had the belief that "If you're going to take a mini, take it quickly".
Which is what I did. It wasn't a mini, but the sale price was below market on the car. I'm not going to beat a customer up over price, and he had done his shopping.
More power to him, I'd do the same thing!
It's the unreasonable and nasty people that I won't put up with.
Bill
http://www.carbuyingtips.com
The fact that car salesmen HATE this site and will say everything they can to bad mouth it is eloquent testimony to its accuracy and helpfulness.
Funny...I can't remember any of us badmouthing it...
Hosts..? Can you do something?
http://www.pueblo.gsa.gov/cic_text/cars/newcar/newcar.htm
http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/autos/newcar.htm