I went out looking at new cars recently and the Saturn was one of my choices. There is only one Saturn dealer near me so I went looking there. While looking at there extremely small selection of used Saturns the salesman came out and I asked him if I could test drive one of the cars. When I came back (it was a short test drive the dang tank was already on E), the same salesmen was with another customer. Is it just me or was that incredibly rude? Needless to say I didn't stay and didn't get a Saturn.
Thanks for all the good advice. The dealer started backpedalling when I went back to see him again the next day -- so I was really nervous. He said his mechanic saw it as a valve cover leak, and he said he took it to a local dealer (chevys) and their mechanic didn't find a head gasket leak either. So, he said, he'd get with *my* mechanic and see what was the story. Well, I checked back with my mechanic and he'd not heard from the dealer. So, I have left things on hold while I work on some loan issues. The mechanic is someone I trust, and he has no vested interest in me buying this vehicle or not. He did say it would be a great deal if, in fact, the dealer fixed the loose front bumper and the head gasket. Well, I only have so much to spend, and I am going with caution. I doubt I can find another Saturn for a price I cn afford. :-(
I heeded your warning about how hard it was, and just pushed it in a little and put foam tape in the gap. Took a few seconds, problem solved, can't see it.
Is the Saturn you're looking at being sold by a used car dealer and not from a Saturn dealer? When I was buying my saturn, the salesman let it slip either accidentally or on purpose but they wholesale some Saturns that come back in as trades. Another thought, have them do a dye test, if it is a valve cover gasket as they say, will see dye showing from where the leak begins. Only problem, if they do the test might be able to manipulate the result so that it appears to be coming from the valve cover. If it is from the head, it will show up quite low on the engine block. Does your mechanic feel that the dealer that is selling the saturn is honest?
Our '95 SL2 is a fairly good car, but I have some gripes about it: -seats are German-like: hard with lots of side bolstering, uncomfortable on long trips -only one cupholder with ashtray in place -while radio is good it has confusing controls and the controls for our A/C is cheap -materials are GM-cheap, but reliability and fit and finish is good for an American econobox -trunk not the best in the world -rear seat is not a nice place to be -high noise levels from wind, engine, and tires; but, hey, last car was Nissan -styling sharp in front but bland in rear, and Cd is a below-average 0.34
These may seem like a lot of complaints, but just make sure to buy the much better 2000 S-Series and the great L-Series.
Sorry about taking so long to get back to you, but so far mine doesn't squeak or groan as far as the interior plastic panels, console or dash. Hope this is not what I have to look forward to as car gets more miles on it. Have 23k on it now and at next oil change switching to synthetic oil for type of driving I do.
Has anyone checked out the website www.saturnexposed.com? Many owners have written in to share their ownership experiences. The posts start out with things like..."My Red Saturn From Hell"...."I Rue the Day I Bought My Saturn SL2"..."My 14,000 dollar mistake"...etc. All posts cite Saturn's complete disregard for their customers
The guy who runs the site is a quack! I heard that Saturn offered the guy a new car and he refused it, instead opting to bash the company. Probably along the same line as the guy who runs a similar BMW site.
I just checked the site and the article in Columbia Herald that Mr Wright (bash site owner) was pleased to quote as his publicity catch. It is indeed a hate site which is not indicative of my Saturn experience at all.
Indeed, Saturn IS a different kind of company. I have had a lot of headaches with my 95 SL2 and did meet some incompetence at the dealer - but overall, I was always treated with respect and warmth. (except on two occasions - but that was sorted out OK)
Contrast that with Mitsubishi, Lexus, and some Nissan dealerships who think they are the boss and powerhouse of knowledge about everything in life and make you feel like an intruder. (Note: this is my experience - and for you legal types - I could be totally wrong and admit it up front)
To those people who actually believed this rubbish posted by the site creator of SaturnExposed.com , here is a general account of why Mr. Right had so many problems with his SC2 which were all brought on by himself alone.
This is a direct transcription of a "statement of facts" as printed by saturn of KC. Typing errors are mine. I am merely copying information they are already disseminating.
-----begin poor transcription----
4/22/97 Vehicle was purchased from Saturn of Blue Springs
7/23/97 1st oil change was performed at Saturn of Blue Springs, miles 4077, change was complimentary
**/**/** Customer Installed sterio system at approximately this time. System included multiple amplifiers, in-dash CD, separate equalizer, upgrade speakers, and sub-woofer type unit in trunk of vehicle. Unit is wired directly to positive battery cable and other wiring is under dash fuse box.
6/18/98 2nd service by saturn of blue springs performed, 6K recommended,
real miles, 14825.
**/**/** At some undetermined time, vehicle was involved in an accident.
Full extent of damage unknown to saturn of KC. Repairs done at non-saturn facility.
4/23/99 3rd service by saturn, car towed into saturn on Olathe, car died while driving, miles 27544, found lose battery cable, after market battery bolt.
7/3/99 4th service by saturn of KC. miles 31336 found blown fuse on remote control entry module, also repaired power window regulator. Customer also complained of ABS light coming on, which would be consistent with vehicle losing electrical power.
8/16/99 5th service by saturn. Customer drove to saturn of KC, miles 32949, said car would not start on previous friday, performed bulletin correction to ignition cylinder, test drove for approx. 137 miles. Complaint did not re-occur.
9/1/99 Customer drove to saturn of KC, miles 34491, said car was intermittently losing power on rough roads. On 09/9/99 saturn of KC provided Mr Wright
with alternate transportation, 1997 nissan sentra. Customer's car still has stall code in computer, saturn of KC was instructed by Saturn corp to run redundant ground to the fuel pump, and test drove the car for 227 miles. problem did not re-occur. The redundant ground was left in place ( concern was that wiring modifications might have affected ground to fuel pump ). Customer picked up car, returned 364 miles later, stating car had died 5 additional times. Saturn of KC drove the car an additional 121 miles, after which it did die for the service manager. Saturn of KC disconnected the after market sterio, and drove 260 miles with no problems. Saturn sent a field engineer to insect the vehicle. Field engineer could not locate a definite cause for the problem.
**/**/** Saturn corp. contacted Mr. Wright on or shortly after 10/1/99, and began discussions regarding possible re-purchase of vehicle.
10/7/99 saturn of KC requested return of loaner vehicle. Customer returned vehicle as requested.
It is the understanding of saturn of KC that Saturn Corp has offered to Mr Wright to repurchase his vehicle. Complete terms are known only to Mr Wright and Saturn. It is the understanding od Saturn of KC that Mr. Wright has decided not to accept this offer.
As has been the case from the start, Saturn of Kansas City and our area stores hope that Mr. Wright and saturn corp can reach an equitable solution in the matter.
They were all good, with the creme de creme being countryside, IL. Fabulous service, cheap prices, and open until midnight. The service was light years ahead of my saab dealer, and that car costs more than twice as much. They (naughty saab dealer) quoted us $200(!!!) to fix a broken foglight lens, if you can believe that. The albuquerque dealer is close in service and prices, but is only open 9-5, and doesn't do much on weekends. I now do the regular service myself, but I should go soon, though, just to have a general lookover, and to repair some wounds i've inflicted.
I'd say he does sound like a quack of they offered him a new car or to repurchase his old car and he refused. What more could he expect?
What concerned me though were the many owner experiences and complaints about Saturn's reliablitly and the complete incompetence and lack of respect that owners experienced by saturn service departments and dealerships.
Believe me, I am not trying to bash the whole company here, but many of these are similiar to the nightmare that I was put through by a local Saturn dealer, Saturn of Mt Laurel in NJ.
I think that I may have posted my story here before but, in a nutshell, I bought a used car from them (a Ford) that was supposed be covered under a powertrain warranty for the first 3000 miles. Not long after I took delivery, it started running rough, burning oil, puffing blue smoke etc. I presented my complaints and returned the car to the dealer at least 2 or 3 times a week and all I ever got was doubletalk and sometimes ignored. The service dept and the used car manager passed the buck back and forth. Service dept said the used car manager had to make the decision about honoring warranty work. But the used car manager said he knew nothing about cars (the salesman also said he knew nothing about cars too) and I had to take it up with the service dept.
The used car manager was always rude and fast talking to me except for one time when he assured me that I would not be left hanging because "that is not the Saturn way." Until of course, after 3 months of this the warranty ran out and then he suddenly claimed that he couldn't remember me telling him about all these problems.
At one point Saturn told me that they could not diagnose the car because it was a Ford. So I took the car to my own mechanic who gave me a written explantion of all the problems. When I returned to the Saturn dealer they told me that my own mehanics findings were completley irrelevant because he was not a Saturn dealer. As I said nothing but doubletalk.
It was a complete scam.
I realize that this may be one bad dealer in a network of good dealers. The problem is that there are only 3 Saturn dealerships in South Jersey and all are owned by the same parent company, Holman Enterprizes.
Thanks Satrunboy for the facts about the guy who is having a problem with the dealer about his Saturn. It appears that he doesn't do even minimal maintenance, and direct wiring a stereo system apparently without a inline fuse, its a wonder he didn't burn up the car by a electrical short. So far am pleased with my 99 SL2 and service from Saturn of Binghamton. Now have 23k+ miles and they replaced a broken exterior rear door panel. Now it has developed stress cracks in the outlet pipe of the long thin muffler beneath the car. Will let you all know how it gets resolved.
Yes, sounds like you've definitely got an awful dealer. It majorly sucks that they are the only one in the area. All I can suggest is that you take it up the food chain at saturn ( eg, call the corporate HQ ). They may be able to help. However, you probably already tried something like this, so it's probably not too helpful.
I just got this car Sat. and I am noticing that if it sits for long periods of time idoling that the Temp. will go all the way to red then something will cycle and the temp will go back to normal. Then it works its way up again. Also this happens when I am in stop and go traffic in the city. After I get on the freeway the temp will stay right in the normal area. Just need to know if this is something you all have or if I have a problem because I only have a 3 month warrenty so I need to know what to do
I am sorry to hear about your stress cracks in your muffler? But what exactly are they, and why do they occur? I have a 98 SL and they just replaced my Electronic Ignition module with only 16 thousand miles on it. I was treated fantastic by the dealer, I only gave them a half an hour notice after my check engine light came on and they fixed it promptly with no appt. Hope your situation improves
First thing I would do is try replacing the thermostat. It only costs a few dollars and, on most cars, you can replace it your self in a matter of minutes. That may very well be the problem and is a quick fix. You said the needle is going almost to the red--is the fan coming on when it gets above a certain temp? If not, that may also be your problem. If either the fan is not coming on, or a new thermostat doesn't solve your problem, I would take the car back to the dealer and let them diagnose it before your warranty is up. Hope this helps.
Yes Dave I did take everything up with Saturn but it got me nowhere. I dont really care about that car anymore anyway since I got rid of it a long time ago. Now that I am in the market for a new car, I just don't want to get burnt again.
Ooops, just notice on your post that you said that "something will cycle" and the temp goes down, so I guess that means your fan is coming on. What is the climate like where you are? It is normal for four cylinder engines to run hot, causing the fan to come on, in stop and go driving when the weather is hot. I don't own a Saturn so I don't know how hot they normally run though. Personally, I'd still replace the thermostat and have it checked out just to be safe before the warranty is up.
I remember reading on the newsgroup that this is normal for older saturns, and caused a lot of worried owners, so they recalibrated the thremostat gauge to go only 1/4 to 1/3 up before popping down again. Can't verify this for a fact, though, BUT you can go to www.saturnfans.com there is a tech talk there tuesday at 11am east coast time and some knowledgeable mechanics participate.
stress cracks come from flexing or expansion and contraction of metal that is held rigidly in place. They are not uncommon on exhaust systems that have stiff hanger brackets that don't allow for expansion.
Stress cracks are caused by flexing as macarthur2 said. The items were all replaced under warranty which I did not expect as how I understood the warranty material, exhaust system after the catalytic converter is not covered so I was surprised that it was.
Also about post #222 the 93 sl2 overheating it also sounds like the fan control is not operating properly. My 99 sl2 fan cycles on long before the temperature gauge reaches the red portion in stop and go city driving.
Any Saturn owners in this site use synthetic oil in your engines and if so what do you use for oil and filter change intervals? I've had other people tell me that they change the oil at 20k mile intervals.
Sounds to me like they are asking for trouble. I think they say that with synthetic you only have to change every 6k but I use Mobil 1 in my Olds and still religiously change it ever 3,000 miles
I use synthetic in my saturn and I usually do the oil change every 6K miles, but now that i'm using the puralator pure one filter I do it every ten. I'm not advising everyone do this, but it works OK for me so far.
I have used 5W30 Quaker State Ultra Premium synthetic forthe last 35 000 miles in my 1997 SW2 which now has 54 000 miles. Use an Amsoil oil filter and change oil every 6000-7000 miles. No problems and no consumption.
Thanks for the input about your experience with using synthetic. Decided to use synthetic and change at 6k intervals. Did notice a change during cold starts, no valve clatter in my sl2. Must be something better about synthetic vs the non synthetic oil.
I have a 1996 Saturn SL2 with 127,000 miles on it, and it has burned a valve. This is very disappointing to me. I take very good care of my vehicles, and drove my 1987 Ranger 4x4 for 257,000 miles with nothing more than routine maintenance. When I called the Saturn dealership to ask about the cost of a valve job, the repair dept. told me that the labor would cost $1,000.00. When I asked about the parts, he told me he would have to switch me to the parts dept. What? Am I expected to know every gasket, fitting, etc. that goes into a Saturn valve job? Am I to believe he can't obtain that, or doesn't have any experience whatsoever in Saturn valve jobs? I've been to the dealership, and the parts dept is right there next to service. My non-Saturn mechanic said that I should trade the car in, not rebuild it, because the rest of the car is not that sound. Unfortunately, the car now won't start, so I'll have to do the rebuild. Has anyone out there had a Saturn rebuild? Should I have the timing chain replaced also. My feeling, based upon this experience, is that Saturn had better keep selling the warm-fuzzy "better family than the one you've got" line, because the cars sure aren't a selling point.
I certainly understand the aggravation that tsage is experiencing, needing a engine rebuild would test almost everyone's nerves when they don't or can't seem to open their wallet or pocketbook.
However, 127,000 miles is very high mileage and getting thus far with out major problems is considered to be very good. Far above the average. I think that all cars go down hill after you reach 100k, some choose to keep their cars and put money in, and they will, and others choose to sell the problems to someone else and enter the new car market once more. Personally I would choose option number 2. Good luck tsage
A burned valve at 127k miles is not the norm for any car engine. Tsage did say he takes good care of his vehicles. I've had several cars that I drove even more miles than he has and have not experienced a burned valve. I've had two transmission rebuilds on two different makes. What I find hard to believe is that a 96 ie 4 year old car is not sound? Maybe his non Saturn mechanic wants the car to fix for himself or buy real cheap and resell at a hefty profit. My advice is to not go back to either place. Buy a used head from a reputable recycler and replace it himself. A good auto parts store would know which gaskets he needs. I dare say he could do it himself for less than 300 in total parts.
I went through the same B.S. with my 96 SL II. I also took very good care of my car, but lost the lower end of the motor at 83K. I was told by Saturn that this is also high mileage for a car. Maybe they only mean Saturn's. I did have the motor rebuilt, and have had no trouble related to the work done by Saturn. "I recommend you have the work done at a Saturn dealer". I also recommend when your ready to buy a new car, remember the fact that you got screwed by Saturn, chalk it up to experience, do your homework, and buy a good car next time. Saturnboy I thought you were out of here. High miles by toady's standards are in upwards of 175-200K for major motor work. But I guess that's only for quality cars.
Saturn Corp. said on Tuesday it received more than $1.5 billion from parent General Motors Corp. to upgrade its factories for up to four future products, including one that is expected to be the first GM vehicle to offer a six-cylinder engine from Japan's Honda Motor. Co. What makes Saturn any different then any other G.M. product?
April 25, 2000 - Saturn Corporation announced today that it has received more than $1.5 billion from parent General Motors to aggressively grow their brand with new products, new styling, and upgraded manufacturing facilities. Saturn will use GM's capital investment and worldwide component relationships to bring an expanded portfolio of larger, innovative vehicles to market faster. Saturn’s plan calls for the potential of four new products over the next four years, with more expressive styling and customer-attentive vehicle flexibility.
Future spring Hill vehicles include the 2002 all-wheel drive SUV, the next-generation coupe, the next-generation sedan, and a fourth, unspecified vehicle. Trudell reportedly said that the fourth vehicle will use a high-tech V-6 engine developed by Japan's No. 2 automaker, Honda. Using the Honda engine will allow GM to bring the new vehicle to market quicker than it could have normally been able to, she said.
Reuters News reported that Wesley Brown, an analyst at industry consultant Nextrend, said it would likely be a nontraditional, lifestyle pickup truck. "It will be a new interpretation of what a pickup can be, something that plays more to one's lifestyle and attitudes rather than its utility," he said. As for the SUV, Brown described it as a crossover vehicle that melds minivan utility with SUV looks. The SUV will be powered by both a GM V6 and Saturn's current L-Series 2.2l 4-cly engine.
Saturn Chairman and President Cynthia Trudell said the new GM investment signals strong support from the world's No. 1 automaker for its 11-year-old import-fighting division.
While Saturn has set standards for customer service and has earned high marks for its no-haggle sales strategy, critics point out that it has struggled to sustain sales in the sluggish small car market. GM has been criticised for starving Saturn of new products, causing it to miss out on the light truck boom of the 1990s.
"Definitely, the investment that General Motors is willing to put into the Saturn brand is a vote of confidence that Saturn in the long-term has high equity for General Motors," Trudell said. The latest funds bring GM's total investment in Saturn to $6.5 billion, she said.
"Saturn has established tremendous equity in its first ten years, and General Motors recognizes our ability to attract and satisfy new customers," said Cynthia Trudell, Saturn chairman and president. "Four out of five S-Series buyers and 68 percent of L-Series buyers tell us they would have bought or leased a non-GM vehicle had Saturn not been available. Further, satisfaction with the Saturn retail experience remains among the highest in the industry.
"Our challenge now is to keep up with customer demand for a wider variety of vehicles," said Trudell. "We intend to continue our commitment to small cars, but position Saturn as more than a small car company. And to sustain our viability as a unique car company, we need to deliver these new products to market more quickly."
The strategic moves announced today include:
GM has approved Saturn’s sport utility vehicle (SUV), which will go into production later next year at Saturn's Spring Hill, Tenn. facility. The all-new SUV will join Saturn's redesigned small cars and the new mid-size L-Series sedan and wagon at Saturn retailers as a 2002 model.
GM is making a $1 billion capital investment in Saturn’s Spring Hill manufacturing facility through 2002. This includes new equipment and tooling for the SUV and next generation small cars, paint shop refurbishment, and building modifications to allow both cars and trucks to be built on a split line. The investment lays the foundation for potential additional products to come on stream.
Saturn’s SUV and next generation small cars will include GM’s new global four-cylinder engine. Spring Hill will be awarded GM’s third production module for this engine, including strategic machining and assembly. This represents an additional $500 million investment for new equipment and the construction of a 450,000 square foot addition. The SUV also will be available with a GM V6 engine.
One of Saturn’s yet undisclosed future models will include a high-tech V6 engine from GM’s recent agreement with Honda. This will shorten the time frame for bringing this new product to market.
Saturn will seek additional GM powertrain production business as it phases out the current transmission family. Saturn’s future products will include a combination of technically-advanced transmissions, such as an Aisin/Warner transmission and a continuously variable transmission (CVT), among other options.
Saturn’s Sales, Service and Marketing (SSM) organization will align more closely with GM’s North American Vehicle Sales, Service and Marketing (VSSM) team. This will allow both organizations to explore synergies to reduce structural cost and enable Saturn’s new product investment. "Saturn’s retail approach and sales, service and marketing team will remain intact," said Jill Lajdziak, vice president of Saturn SSM. "But we will share Saturn’s experience with GM, and glean from our parent company’s centers of expertise in areas transparent to the customer."
Ron Hankins, president of UAW Local 1853, said, "The Saturn UAW team worked hard to earn GM’s global four-cylinder engine business. We have a commitment to producing high quality products, and this decision provides job security for our UAW members. It’s a win for GM, Saturn and the Spring Hill community. We also look forward to building a steady stream of new, competitive products for Saturn."
Summarizing the investment and product plans, Trudell said, "We’re gearing up with GM’s commitment to grow the Saturn brand. Our S-Series launch in the early 1990s was so successful that Saturn became synonymous with small cars. We now have a mid-size product to compete with the imports, and we’ll soon start building awareness for our upcoming SUV. And that’s just the beginning.
"Overall, our strategy will expand Saturn, yet do so in a way that improves our operational performance and remains true to Saturn's core values. Saturn was born from a commitment to customer service and a partnership with our retailers, UAW partners, team members and suppliers," said Trudell. "These values will continue as we strengthen our brand equity in today's rapidly changing automotive marketplace."
Well I hope I never need 1.5 billion to stay afloat. I still don't see how Saturn is any different then any of GM's other satellite car brands. If they need money GM gives them money. If GM wants to give up on them, they go under. They are only an extension of the bigger picture that is called "GENERAL MOTORS". Saturn is no more a car company then Chevy, or Olds, or Buick.
Well, I don't agree that a rebuild at 126K is something to be expected. There are people who frequently post on the saturn newsgroup and site that have a lot more mileage than that. It's not shocking that it happens to a particular car, though, and it's also not reasonable to try to infer that it's an endemic problem. Has anyone noticed the "volvo engine burned up at 44K miles" on here? Does anyone think that all volvos will do that? I don't.
As to saying that saturn=chevy because saturn got money from GM, well, that's just kind of silly. Saturn is more different than the other GM brands because:
1) Saturn has it's own designs; most of the other GM brands have essentially the same cars differentiated by bodywork and details. cavalier/sunfire, alero/grand am, intrigue/grand prix/buick regal, etc.
2) Saturn has negotiated a special contract with it's employees which had a high amount of incentives based on quality production, worker education, etc. Most union auto workers don't have this sort of contract.
3) Saturn places a special focus on sales satisfaction and service, rather than deep discounts, which is typical for other GM brands.
4) Unlike other GM brand which focus on a lot of doohickeys for not much money, the saturn focus on safety, economy after purchase, fuel economy, etc.
That's just off the top of my head, and it think it shows how saturn is different than the other GM brands. Now, there are a few disturbing similarities, in my opinion. There is the typical GM-ism of saving a few bucks here or there in silly places:
* Making all the rear brakes drums ( the used to be disk ). Drum brakes are inferior, and more costly to maintain.
* Not having folding side mirrors. This greatly increases the chances to damage this part.
* Taking away the performance switch on the automatic.
* The contract with the workers in the LS plant is much more a standard union contract than for the spring hill plant ehcih makes the S series.
Now, I have my own feelings about why some of this happened. I think saturn really did try to produce the car people needed ( economical, safe ) instead of what they wanted ( cheap, flashy ). Sales eventaully suffered as the industry moved on, So, they pinched pennies on some of the parts indicated above. This was a mistake, as the original point of saturn was to be an experiment to try things that might be carried over into the rest of GM. Instead I see the aforementioned cutting corners on the S series instead of upgrading it, and an L series, that, while quite nice, skimped on safety, had numerous rollout bugs, while having a lot of doohickeys per dollar. Then again, if this is what people want, are they foolish not to provide it? How many people look at safety, ownership costs, etc, before buying an economy car? Now they're going into the SUV and light "lifestyle" truck market, ie "vehicles for people with more money than sense."
All that being said, I still feel that saturn is very competitive in it's class with both the S and L series, but I don't feel that it's clearly best in category ( for me, anyways ), which I felt when I bought my car in '96. I recently helped some friends carshop for $10-15K cars, and while we of course looked at saturns, we also looked at the golf, focus, subaru, etc.
Actually, GM does owe Saturn that money. Saturn was a GM experiment to begin with. They were completely financed and supported by GM, who tried to keep their hands out of all important decisions. Saturn wanted a new car and an SUV a long time ago, but GM thought it would taint the vision and philosophy of the Saturn corporation. They owe them. Besides, its about time these cars were updated. Once they are, I'm sure they will be far superior to anything else on the road.
Yeah, reg, you already know what's going to happen, don't you? As someone who admits a bias against saturn, why do you even read these topics? Masochism?
Actually, I never understood the love affair with civics, personally. Perfectly fine car, but nothing on them stands out to me and says "get me" to me.
I agree, 127K miles isn't "high mileage" anymore. In the 70's maybe, but not today. So this isn't an adequate explanation for what you are having to deal with. I did a valve and ring job on my VW years ago, and it's not that big a deal. Buy a book, study it, ask around, pay attention as you take things apart and you'll save a small fortune.
RE: new Honda Civic. I hope they are putting the 127bhp engine as standard in everything, because the lower hp engine is just pathetic. BTW, have you seen the reliability info. for the 1999 Civics in Autopinion 2000 (a CAA publication)? Yikes!!!! A lot of disatisfied customers there boy.
And the 1999 Accord isn't a far sight better. But "only" in the engine, fuel system, ignition and electrical areas. The only expensive part excluded is the transmission. One is (predominantly) made in Alliston, Ontario and one in Ohio, so it can't just be the manufacturing facility.
In response to post 250, I strongly disagree with the opinion that 127,000 miles is too little for a burnt valve, in most cases this is extremely rare and I admit it shouldn't happen. However, as a ex Toyota Celica GT owner, my Celica leaked oil at around 57,000 miles. Was I pissed>? YES. Did I [non-permissible content removed] about it>? YES Did I go around complaining to all the faceless people on messege boards>? NO. I bought another car.
Sometimes machines break down and they shouldn't , but thats exactly what Saturns and every car is, a MACHINE. After having a trouble prone Nissan, and a aggravating Toyota, I decided never to keep a car past 100k again. Wheather its good at the time or not, when it reads 100,000 miles its history.
Well, than why in the LS topic did you say "even though i'm biased against saturns..." Why do you constantly rag on saturn in the forums, though you don't seem to actually know anything about them?
Comments
started backpedalling when I went back to see
him again the next day -- so I was really
nervous. He said his mechanic saw it as
a valve cover leak, and he said he took it
to a local dealer (chevys) and their
mechanic didn't find a head gasket leak
either. So, he said, he'd get with *my*
mechanic and see what was the story. Well,
I checked back with my mechanic and he'd
not heard from the dealer. So, I have
left things on hold while I work on some
loan issues. The mechanic is someone I
trust, and he has no vested interest in
me buying this vehicle or not. He did
say it would be a great deal if, in fact,
the dealer fixed the loose front bumper
and the head gasket. Well, I only have
so much to spend, and I am going with
caution. I doubt I can find another
Saturn for a price I cn afford. :-(
Thanks again, everyone!
Karin at Wells
dave
-seats are German-like: hard with lots of side bolstering, uncomfortable on long trips
-only one cupholder with ashtray in place
-while radio is good it has confusing controls and the controls for our A/C is cheap
-materials are GM-cheap, but reliability and fit and finish is good for an American econobox
-trunk not the best in the world
-rear seat is not a nice place to be
-high noise levels from wind, engine, and tires; but, hey, last car was Nissan
-styling sharp in front but bland in rear, and Cd is a below-average 0.34
These may seem like a lot of complaints, but just make sure to buy the much better 2000 S-Series and the great L-Series.
Indeed, Saturn IS a different kind of company. I have had a lot of headaches with my 95 SL2 and did meet some incompetence at the dealer - but overall, I was always treated with respect and warmth. (except on two occasions - but that was sorted out OK)
Contrast that with Mitsubishi, Lexus, and some Nissan dealerships who think they are the boss and powerhouse of knowledge about everything in life and make you feel like an intruder. (Note: this is my experience - and for you legal types - I could be totally wrong and admit it up front)
This is a direct transcription of a "statement of facts" as printed by saturn of KC. Typing errors are mine. I am merely
copying information they are already disseminating.
-----begin poor transcription----
4/22/97 Vehicle was purchased from Saturn of Blue Springs
7/23/97 1st oil change was performed at Saturn of Blue Springs, miles 4077,
change was complimentary
**/**/** Customer Installed sterio system at approximately this time. System included multiple amplifiers, in-dash CD, separate equalizer, upgrade speakers, and sub-woofer type unit in trunk of vehicle. Unit is wired directly to positive battery cable and other wiring is under dash
fuse box.
6/18/98 2nd service by saturn of blue springs performed, 6K recommended,
real miles, 14825.
**/**/** At some undetermined time, vehicle was involved in an accident.
Full extent of damage unknown to saturn of KC. Repairs done at
non-saturn
facility.
4/23/99 3rd service by saturn, car towed into saturn on Olathe, car died while
driving, miles 27544, found lose battery cable, after market battery bolt.
7/3/99 4th service by saturn of KC. miles 31336 found blown fuse on remote
control entry module, also repaired power window regulator. Customer also
complained of ABS light coming on, which would be consistent with vehicle
losing electrical power.
8/16/99 5th service by saturn. Customer drove to saturn of KC, miles 32949, said
car would not start on previous friday, performed bulletin correction to ignition cylinder,
test drove for approx. 137 miles. Complaint did not re-occur.
9/1/99 Customer drove to saturn of KC, miles 34491, said car was intermittently
losing power on rough roads. On 09/9/99 saturn of KC provided Mr Wright
with alternate transportation, 1997 nissan sentra. Customer's car still has stall
code in computer, saturn of KC was instructed by Saturn corp to run redundant
ground to the fuel pump, and test drove the car for 227 miles. problem did not
re-occur. The redundant ground was left in place ( concern was that wiring
modifications might have affected ground to fuel pump ). Customer picked up car,
returned 364 miles later, stating car had died 5 additional times. Saturn of KC
drove the car an additional 121 miles, after which it did die for the service manager.
Saturn of KC disconnected the after market sterio, and drove 260 miles with no problems.
Saturn sent a field engineer to insect the vehicle. Field engineer could not locate a
definite cause for the problem.
**/**/** Saturn corp. contacted Mr. Wright on or shortly after 10/1/99, and began
discussions regarding possible re-purchase of vehicle.
10/7/99 saturn of KC requested return of loaner vehicle. Customer returned vehicle as
requested.
It is the understanding of saturn of KC that Saturn Corp has offered to Mr Wright to
repurchase his vehicle. Complete terms are known only to Mr Wright and Saturn.
It is the understanding od Saturn of KC that Mr. Wright has decided not to accept
this offer.
As has been the case from the start, Saturn of Kansas City and our area stores
hope that Mr. Wright and saturn corp can reach an equitable solution in the matter.
----end poor transcription----
I wanted to second norbert, i've used 4 different saturn dealers:
countryside,il
waukesha,wi
milwaulee,wi
albuquerque,nm
They were all good, with the creme de creme being countryside, IL. Fabulous service, cheap prices, and open until midnight. The service was light years ahead of my saab dealer, and that car costs more than twice as much. They (naughty saab dealer) quoted us $200(!!!) to fix a broken foglight lens, if you can believe that. The albuquerque dealer is close in service and prices, but is only open 9-5, and doesn't do much on weekends. I now do the regular service myself, but I should go soon, though, just to have a general lookover, and to repair some wounds i've inflicted.
neways, good to see you back.
dave
What concerned me though were the many owner experiences and complaints about Saturn's reliablitly and the complete incompetence and lack of respect that owners experienced by saturn service departments and dealerships.
Believe me, I am not trying to bash the whole company here, but many of these are similiar to the nightmare that I was put through by a local Saturn dealer, Saturn of Mt Laurel in NJ.
I think that I may have posted my story here before but, in a nutshell, I bought a used car from them (a Ford) that was supposed be covered under a powertrain warranty for the first 3000 miles. Not long after I took delivery, it started running rough, burning oil, puffing blue smoke etc. I presented my complaints and returned the car to the dealer at least 2 or 3 times a week and all I ever got was doubletalk and sometimes ignored. The service dept and the used car manager passed the buck back and forth. Service dept said the used car manager had to make the decision about honoring warranty work. But the used car manager said he knew nothing about cars (the salesman also said he knew nothing about cars too) and I had to take it up with the service dept.
The used car manager was always rude and fast talking to me except for one time when he assured me that I would not be left hanging because "that is not the Saturn way." Until of course, after 3 months of this the warranty ran out and then he suddenly claimed that he couldn't remember me telling him about all these problems.
At one point Saturn told me that they could not diagnose the car because it was a Ford. So I took the car to my own mechanic who gave me a written explantion of all the problems. When I returned to the Saturn dealer they told me that my own mehanics findings were completley irrelevant because he was not a Saturn dealer. As I said nothing but doubletalk.
It was a complete scam.
I realize that this may be one bad dealer in a network of good dealers. The problem is that there are only 3 Saturn dealerships in South Jersey and all are owned by the same parent company, Holman Enterprizes.
So far am pleased with my 99 SL2 and service from Saturn of Binghamton. Now have 23k+ miles and they replaced a broken exterior rear door panel. Now it has developed stress cracks in the outlet pipe of the long thin muffler beneath the car. Will let you all know how it gets resolved.
dave
dave
Also about post #222 the 93 sl2 overheating it also sounds like the fan control is not operating properly. My 99 sl2 fan cycles on long before the temperature gauge reaches the red portion in stop and go city driving.
Sounds to me like they are asking for trouble. I think they say that with synthetic you only have to change every 6k but I use Mobil 1 in my Olds and still religiously change it ever 3,000 miles
dave
Must be something better about synthetic vs the non synthetic oil.
When I called the Saturn dealership to ask about the cost of a valve job, the repair dept. told me that the labor would cost $1,000.00. When I asked about the parts, he told me he would have to switch me to the parts dept. What? Am I expected to know every gasket, fitting, etc. that goes into a Saturn valve job? Am I to believe he can't obtain that, or doesn't have any experience whatsoever in Saturn valve jobs? I've been to the dealership, and the parts dept is right there next to service.
My non-Saturn mechanic said that I should trade the car in, not rebuild it, because the rest of the car is not that sound. Unfortunately, the car now won't start, so I'll have to do the rebuild.
Has anyone out there had a Saturn rebuild? Should I have the timing chain replaced also. My
feeling, based upon this experience, is that Saturn had better keep selling the warm-fuzzy "better family than the one you've got" line, because the cars sure aren't a selling point.
However, 127,000 miles is very high mileage and getting thus far with out major problems is considered to be very good. Far above the average. I think that all cars go down hill after you reach 100k, some choose to keep their cars and put money in, and they will, and others choose to sell the problems to someone else and enter the new car market once more. Personally I would choose option number 2. Good luck tsage
April 25, 2000 - Saturn Corporation announced
today that it has received more than $1.5 billion
from parent General Motors to aggressively grow
their brand with new products, new styling, and
upgraded manufacturing facilities. Saturn will use
GM's capital investment and worldwide component
relationships to bring an expanded portfolio of
larger, innovative vehicles to market faster.
Saturn’s plan calls for the potential of four new
products over the next four years, with more
expressive styling and customer-attentive vehicle
flexibility.
Future spring Hill vehicles include the 2002
all-wheel drive SUV, the next-generation coupe, the
next-generation sedan, and a fourth, unspecified
vehicle. Trudell reportedly said that the fourth
vehicle will use a high-tech V-6 engine developed
by Japan's No. 2 automaker, Honda. Using the Honda
engine will allow GM to bring the new vehicle to
market quicker than it could have normally been
able to, she said.
Reuters News reported that Wesley Brown, an
analyst at industry consultant Nextrend, said it
would likely be a nontraditional, lifestyle pickup
truck. "It will be a new interpretation of what a
pickup can be, something that plays more to one's
lifestyle and attitudes rather than its utility,"
he said. As for the SUV, Brown described it as a
crossover vehicle that melds minivan utility with
SUV looks. The SUV will be powered by both a GM V6
and Saturn's current L-Series 2.2l 4-cly engine.
Saturn Chairman and President Cynthia Trudell said
the new GM investment signals strong support from
the world's No. 1 automaker for its 11-year-old
import-fighting division.
While Saturn has set standards for customer
service and has earned high marks for its no-haggle
sales strategy, critics point out that it has
struggled to sustain sales in the sluggish small
car market. GM has been criticised for starving
Saturn of new products, causing it to miss out on
the light truck boom of the 1990s.
"Definitely, the investment that General Motors is
willing to put into the Saturn brand is a vote of
confidence that Saturn in the long-term has high
equity for General Motors," Trudell said. The
latest funds bring GM's total investment in Saturn
to $6.5 billion, she said.
"Saturn has established tremendous equity in its
first ten years, and General Motors recognizes our
ability to attract and satisfy new customers," said
Cynthia Trudell, Saturn chairman and president.
"Four out of five S-Series buyers and 68 percent of
L-Series buyers tell us they would have bought or
leased a non-GM vehicle had Saturn not been
available. Further, satisfaction with the Saturn
retail experience remains among the highest in the
industry.
"Our challenge now is to keep up with customer
demand for a wider variety of vehicles," said
Trudell. "We intend to continue our commitment to
small cars, but position Saturn as more than a
small car company. And to sustain our viability as
a unique car company, we need to deliver these new
products to market more quickly."
The strategic moves announced today include:
GM has approved Saturn’s sport utility vehicle
(SUV), which will go into production later next
year at Saturn's Spring Hill, Tenn. facility. The
all-new SUV will join Saturn's redesigned small
cars and the new mid-size L-Series sedan and wagon
at Saturn retailers as a 2002 model.
GM is making a $1 billion capital investment in
Saturn’s Spring Hill manufacturing facility through
2002. This includes new equipment and tooling for
the SUV and next generation small cars, paint shop
refurbishment, and building modifications to allow
both cars and trucks to be built on a split line.
The investment lays the foundation for potential
additional products to come on stream.
Saturn’s SUV and next generation small cars will
include GM’s new global four-cylinder engine.
Spring Hill will be awarded GM’s third production
module for this engine, including strategic
machining and assembly. This represents an
additional $500 million investment for new
equipment and the construction of a 450,000 square
foot addition. The SUV also will be available with
a GM V6 engine.
One of Saturn’s yet undisclosed future models will
include a high-tech V6 engine from GM’s recent
agreement with Honda. This will shorten the time
frame for bringing this new product to market.
Saturn will seek additional GM powertrain
production business as it phases out the current
transmission family. Saturn’s future products will
include a combination of technically-advanced
transmissions, such as an Aisin/Warner transmission
and a continuously variable transmission (CVT),
among other options.
Saturn’s Sales, Service and Marketing (SSM)
organization will align more closely with GM’s
North American Vehicle Sales, Service and Marketing
(VSSM) team. This will allow both organizations to
explore synergies to reduce structural cost and
enable Saturn’s new product investment.
"Saturn’s retail approach and sales, service and
marketing team will remain intact," said Jill
Lajdziak, vice president of Saturn SSM. "But we
will share Saturn’s experience with GM, and glean
from our parent company’s centers of expertise in
areas transparent to the customer."
Ron Hankins, president of UAW Local 1853, said,
"The Saturn UAW team worked hard to earn GM’s
global four-cylinder engine business. We have a
commitment to producing high quality products, and
this decision provides job security for our UAW
members. It’s a win for GM, Saturn and the Spring
Hill community. We also look forward to building a
steady stream of new, competitive products for
Saturn."
Summarizing the investment and product plans,
Trudell said, "We’re gearing up with GM’s
commitment to grow the Saturn brand. Our S-Series
launch in the early 1990s was so successful that
Saturn became synonymous with small cars. We now
have a mid-size product to compete with the
imports, and we’ll soon start building awareness
for our upcoming SUV. And that’s just the
beginning.
"Overall, our strategy will expand Saturn, yet do
so in a way that improves our operational
performance and remains true to Saturn's core
values. Saturn was born from a commitment to
customer service and a partnership with our
retailers, UAW partners, team members and
suppliers," said Trudell. "These values will
continue as we strengthen our brand equity in
today's rapidly changing automotive marketplace."
As to saying that saturn=chevy because saturn got money from GM, well, that's just kind of silly. Saturn is more different than the other GM brands because:
1) Saturn has it's own designs; most of the other GM brands have essentially the same cars differentiated by bodywork and details. cavalier/sunfire, alero/grand am, intrigue/grand prix/buick regal, etc.
2) Saturn has negotiated a special contract with it's employees which had a high amount of incentives based on quality production, worker education, etc. Most union auto workers don't have this sort of contract.
3) Saturn places a special focus on sales satisfaction and service, rather than deep discounts, which is typical for other GM brands.
4) Unlike other GM brand which focus on a lot of doohickeys for not much money, the saturn focus on safety, economy after purchase, fuel economy, etc.
That's just off the top of my head, and it think it shows how saturn is different than the other GM brands. Now, there are a few disturbing similarities, in my opinion. There is the typical GM-ism of saving a few bucks here or there in silly places:
* Making all the rear brakes drums ( the used to be disk ). Drum brakes are inferior, and more costly to maintain.
* Not having folding side mirrors. This greatly increases the chances to damage this part.
* Taking away the performance switch on the automatic.
* The contract with the workers in the LS plant is much more a standard union contract than for the spring hill plant ehcih makes the S series.
Now, I have my own feelings about why some of this happened. I think saturn really did try to produce the car people needed ( economical, safe ) instead of what they wanted ( cheap, flashy ). Sales eventaully suffered as the industry moved on, So, they pinched pennies on some of the parts indicated above. This was a mistake, as the original point of saturn was to be an experiment to try things that might be carried over into the rest of GM. Instead I see the aforementioned cutting corners on the S series instead of upgrading it, and an L series, that, while quite nice, skimped on safety, had numerous rollout bugs, while having a lot of doohickeys per dollar. Then again, if this is what people want, are they foolish not to provide it? How many people look at safety, ownership costs, etc, before buying an economy car? Now they're going into the SUV and light "lifestyle" truck market, ie "vehicles for people with more money than sense."
All that being said, I still feel that saturn is very competitive in it's class with both the S and L series, but I don't feel that it's clearly best in category ( for me, anyways ), which I felt when I bought my car in '96. I recently helped some friends carshop for $10-15K cars, and while we of course looked at saturns, we also looked at the golf, focus, subaru, etc.
But it's not "just another GM division."
dave
Actually, I never understood the love affair with civics, personally. Perfectly fine car, but nothing on them stands out to me and says "get me" to me.
dave
RE: new Honda Civic. I hope they are putting the 127bhp engine as standard in everything, because the lower hp engine is just pathetic. BTW, have you seen the reliability info. for the 1999 Civics in Autopinion 2000 (a CAA publication)? Yikes!!!! A lot of disatisfied customers there boy.
Civic is just better.
Besides, it looks like Honda will start making motors for GM soon, so then you may see Saturns with Honda motors in them.
Sometimes machines break down and they shouldn't , but thats exactly what Saturns and every car is, a MACHINE. After having a trouble prone Nissan, and a aggravating Toyota, I decided never to keep a car past 100k again. Wheather its good at the time or not, when it reads 100,000 miles its history.
dave