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Comments
1. diesels idling in traffic are notorious for sipping gas frugally,
2. much less electronics on a diesel than on a hybrid,
3. the gas mileage and 1,2 offset the higher prices
4. while I don't know for sure, I can only believe there will not be a 5K or more premium for diesel engines as there are for hybrids today.
Diesels have a lot going for them compared to hybrids.
"in traffic" is where hybrids shine...sometimes the engine will be off entirely, other times you get some electric power back via regenerative braking
2. much less electronics on a diesel than on a hybrid,
That might be a problem for companies that don't do electronics well. I don't think Lexus and Toyota are in that group. The RX400h has an 8 year/100k mile warranty on its hybrid powertrain. Ever see that on a diesel?
3. the gas mileage and 1,2 offset the higher prices
Diesel costs more than gas currently...and the gap as others have said could widen
4. while I don't know for sure, I can only believe there will not be a 5K or more premium for diesel engines as there are for hybrids today.
The premium for hybrid today is 3k per Edmunds (as long as you want a well-optioned car to begin with) and could decline as the technology matures. The premium for diesel is 1k today per Stroudman for the E320 CDI. That will increase in 2007 due to new pollution standards. See the following column, I found it quite illuminating:
http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=27&article_id=9491&page_number=1
Diesels have a lot going for them compared to hybrids.
In the 2005-6 timeframe that is true (and diesels really deserve more press attention), but beyond 2006 I don't think so, based on the column referenced above, which suggests "It's hard to see a payback on a 2007 diesel car in the U.S. in less than 200,000 miles. That's efficiency you couldn't sell at gunpoint. And every cent that diesel fuel rises above gasoline pushes the payback out farther."
Yes, except when you are stuck in a 1 hour jam and run out of juice and the hybrids have to turn on the motor.
"much less electronics on a diesel than on a hybrid,"
Most smart people would buy a German diesel over a Japanese hybrid anyday. Diesel technology is proven and efficient. Let's have this conversation in 5 years when these dang batteries start dying left and right.
"200,000 miles"
Yep, you could easily run a diesel for 200K miles without major work. How about a hybrid?
On what basis could you possibly make a statement like that??
Diesel is proven and efficient, but do you prefer a 4yr/50k mi E320 CDI powertrain warranty over a 8yr/100k mi hybrid system warranty? Maybe if you're planning on keeping the vehicle for 10 years or more.
NiMH battery technology isn't THAT new. It's been in laptop PCs for example for at least 10 years. I imagine that Lexus had ample reason to be comfortable offering an 8 year warranty on the hybrid system, and would be surprised if customers had problems in 5 years.
Most smart people would buy a German diesel over a Japanese hybrid
I haven't bought either one but you're welcome to go over to the RX400h board and tell all those folks they're stupid.
Is there a reason they need an 8 year powertrain warranty? NiMH batter technology has been around in laptops for ages. We (my company) have these batteries fail by the droves and lose their ability to hold a charge in a very short (relative) amount of time. I would expect the same from hybrids. Hybrids are new and we'll see what the real world experience is. That 8 year warranty might just be needed, and what happens after 8 years. Diesels after 8 years are just getting broken in.
When BMW introduces their new generation of diesels we'll see what the landscape looks like.
Fair enough, if you're going to buy I'd make it in 2006 if I were you. Maybe in 2006 we'll also know how much low-sulphur diesel actually costs at the pump.
Kd You’ve been singing BMW love songs ever since I know you. They can’t do anything wrong in your eyes. All of a sudden less electronics is where it’s at? Who are you trying to kid?
I honestly don't know the answers, but it can make for interesting conversation.
(you have to pronounce "man" with a California accent)
;-)
As for Hydrogen-based fuel used as commonly as fossil-fuels, I'll say not in my lietime, and I plan to live very long too !!!
Hint: Its neither a Lexus nor a BMW.
While I'm sure that hybrid technology will get better in the next 10-15 years, diesels have a 100 year start on hybrids. BMW and other manufacturers have already produced winning diesel technology that's field tested and proven.
In my mind the best non-luxury sports sedan is the Sti.
But I guess we'll see, won't we.
The have a global track record though. The same way Lexus has a globl track record. Just to indulge the conversation. Do you think if low-sulfer diesel is a reality and people see it in gas stations and, BMW goes on a marketing blitz to promote their new line-up of diesel based vehicles, people will be interested?
Maybe people who like hybrid products won't be, but most people understand diesel isn't a new technology, and diesel engines are less complex than gas/hybrid, and diesel engines go the distance and they are less expensive to operate than gas.
Now if BMW can keep the same pricepoint on it's diesel/gas vehicles, I think it would find a hot reception here.
Since most of the gas in a gas engine is used getting the two tons under way...and in city driving that and sitting in idle uses a good chunk of the gas ...all that is saved with the hybrid....the marriage of a hybrid with a very efficent Diesel sounds great to me............I don't know however what problems there would be in making that marriage...If anyone can do it Toyota can.
We avg just short of 50 mpg. (49.something) in mixed driving...but the car has less then 5000 miles on it and I understand milage will go up when it fully breaks in.
I suppose that could well happen. Why not ?
BUT, isn't BMW known for their performance machines ? To now be a diesel-operator in the US will need some working the public into. BMW will have to spend quite an awful amount of money to convince the public in this. Do they have it in them to do this, or would they rather spend the money on promoting their sedans and SUVs as the ultimate in performance machines ? Methinks the latter....
It is well known BMW can make performance diesels. BMW will have just as hard as time selling these diesels in the US as other manufacturers are having selling hybrids. (I'll just add IMO)
Since when were car rags considered bibles?? Car reviewers are mere mortals, and they get facts wrong quite often, including even basic facts about the cars that they are reviewing. RAV4 long pre-dated M class, and RAV4 drives a lot more like a car than any M class has ever been.
That's flat out wrong. 5-series cars are not sports sedans. WRX-STi's are sports sedans, Lance Evo are sports sedans, TSX is arguably a sport sedan. . . even in the BMW family, 3 series cars are sport sedans, 5-series are luxury family cars. I marketing terms, 5-series stands for the market segment that is above entry-luxury, but not quite rich enough for the top end luxury. BMW has had success in this segment by giving a hint of sporty pretensions. That's the market segment Lexus is after with the GS series. Considering that LS is only a couple thousands more than 545i, it makes eminent sense for Lexus to have a GS that focus stealing sales from 530 and 525. If it means offering an option for buyers who want to spend $45-50k but finds BMW's ride too jarring, so be it.
The definitions for "Performance" are quite different across the pond. In Europe, "performance" means nimble handling, hence 520i and diesel. Whereas in the US, "performance" is first and foremost defined by power, hence BMW went through all the trouble it did a decade ago to come up with 545i, and never dared to bring diesel or 520i here. Diesel can't rev high, hence there is a perceived power deficit.
I would, of course, rather have a LS430, the Preius is my wife's care.....but....when they make that LS hybrid......I'll buy it....For me.
No I'm talking about the defintion of performance of we see it here. But I'm not sure what your defintion is. Maybe you can tell us? I'll save mine for later.
IMO BMW will have a harder time selling diesels in the US than Lexus and Toyota have had selling hybrids. One, diesel doesn't generate the free advertising that the press is giving hybrid. Two, there isn't a buzz with diesel because it is not a new technology. Three, diesel costs more per gallon, and that price difference is likely to worsen. Four, with hybrid there is no question that you get a performance benefit; whereas with diesel, you get higher torque but lower hp...nice if you're towing a boat or something, but how many BMW owners do that?
The E320 CDI is an impressive vehicle (and I'd be tempted myself if I were shopping that size car and if it weren't for MB reliability and service issues), but how many is it selling compared to the RX400h?
Given the waiting lists and heavy effortless pre-selling of Toyota and Lexus hybrids, and the need for Prius to triple production in order to meet demand - how exactly is Toyota having a hard time selling hybrids??
Yes, that was my point. But of course, just speculation.
> that you want, and it would not compare to the vehicles I mentioned.
There was nothing luxurious about ML320 either.
That warranty is there to put customers at ease with a new technology. It is that simple.
Audi will build an aluminum supercar based on the Le Mans Quattro concept that was shown at the 2003 IAA in Frankfurt."
I remember the pics of that concept and think it was a beautiful car.
Did anyone read about the joint GM-Toyota plans to build fuel-cell powered automobiles ?
See the article here
http://www.toyota.com/about/environment/partnerships/gm_exxon.html
Anyone knowledgable about fuel-cells to explain this to us ? Is Toyota giving up on gas-fuel hybrids, or looking to chart incremental market share on fuel-cells ? Is this a technology that will make it into cars by the end of this decade ? And what are the advantages v gas-electric ? Isn't GM supposed to be working with MB on a joint hybrid system ??? Which of these combinations (bio-diesel, diesel-electric, gas-electric, fuel-cell, etc) is the real deal going forward ???
GM/Toyota - they have had so many relationships over the years that I once thought they would merge. These days Toyota wields power over them, correction over everyone, and can call the shots but they are also trying to be more and more an American company. From what I've read Toyota is pretty far down the road on fuel cells and GM doesn't - for the time being - have the capital to do this alone. I also think that the only way fuel cell development takes places more quickly and efficiently is for some of the giants to merge or do JV's to get it done. I'm afraid it's 25-40 years away and gas or diesel hybrids will be the staples to get us there. But Toyota hooked up with Exxon (merely $60bln in operating profits there) plus GM means this could move faster than I think. That is some heavyweight group!
25-40 years away !!! By then, cars will pretty much drive themselves and park themselves., won't they ?
And Toyota-GM collaboration continues to baffle me. On the one hand, Toyota is shooting for #1 in worldwide unit car sales by 2010 (saw an article in the WSJ last week talking about this wrt the new Hilux Toyota is rolling out to developing countries), OTOH, they are working with their competitor to bring new technology to the market. A competitor they do not really need, or do they ??? Baffling !
Talking about hybrids and high-end lux, seems like the 400HP (estd) IS500 is a done deal and bound for the US market within a couple years from now. We already know that there will be a hybrid V-8 (400+HP) LS600. If MB and BMW brings in their diesel cars, up the ante on HP (>400HP) as both are determined to do, and still keep a very decent MPG on these cars, these would all be good for the market. What will happen to fossil fuel-based cars 10 years from now ? And by inference, XOM ? Are we talking extinction of the gas-engined cars as we know it today within a 10-20 year span ???
More questions and uncertainties than there are answers....
Over time the battery will get more and more powerful and start to handle the highway driving with greater efficiency. Lexus already sees it or has access to it which is why you're seeing the high MPG articles. This will make the fuel side (and the type of fuel) less and less important. We'll never get to an electric car but we will get to one that shares a much greater power performance when you are cruising at 70mph rather than idling in city driving. The electronics,(and we know who rules that roost) - I mean the real electronics not the I-drive stupidity - will increase in importance everyday going forward. I'd love to see Toyota's acquisition list.
The any Fuel Electric ...in SUVs will be enormous...It takes the guilt out of driving SUVs...Helps American Manufactures...Big Big Saving in the oil resource...