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High End Luxury Cars



  • sv7887sv7887 Posts: 351

     It seems like you're the one who needs a "Reality Check"


    "I will refrain from comparing an LS to A8L,7-Series, or S-Class as true auto enthusiasts know the difference easily. Also, Lexus lacks any true motor sport heritage, a very important aspect to a true marquee"


    Hmm reeks of snobbery to me. So Car and Driver and the rest of the automotive press are all wrong?? Sorry I've driven ALL of those cars you mentioned and the only one that had a big difference was the 7 Series. Btw, the LS Ultra does have that Fridge and whatever toys your precious A8 has. I'll take my superior quality. residual, and 20K savings and laugh all the way to the bank. So far NO ONE has made an OBJECTIVE argument against Lexus..All I see here is pure arrogance with these "opinions."


    "how reliable their Lexus is. The Germans are quite reliable as well. Lexus people would like everyone to believe that the German UberKlasse (Audi, BMW, and Mercedes-Benz) are breaking down all the time or something. That is simply Lexus BS!"


    Okay, so you are going to deny 10+ yrs of JD Power Statistics??? So I'm assuming you've done your own econometric regression analysis to come up with that conclusion...JAGUAR is the most reliable Euro marque at this moment...


    "I have driven your precious little LS and if anyone thinks that it compares to an A8L, then I have some nice swamp land to sell you."


    Wrong again, the LS beat the A8 in the last Car and Driver Comparison and was second in the Road and Track one..IF the A8 is SOOO great, why are the residuals so poor in the US? Explain to me why all of these Marques can't match Toyota's revenue? The true measure of success is the profit..I could care less about your unsubstantiated opinions. Get some facts.


    "Try an Audi S4 or Audi RS6 or a BMW M3 or BMW M5 sometime if you want to know what REAL driving is about. We know our marquees were built for driving and handling. We push them like no senior citizen pushs his Lexus to the Senior Citizen Center."


    So you're comparing a modified sports car to a bunch of Luxury sedans? BTW the Lexus IS has done relatively well in the performance category..It just has a lousy interior. I'm sure there are twin turbo GS400's in Japan that beg to differ as well..Is your point about driving and handling your excuse for subpar quality? Right and HOW many people push their 7 Series, S Classes on the highway?? The speed limit in the US is 55 MPH...Even in London, it's 70..Are you actually going to claim the majority of BMW, MB, and Audi owners actually race their cars on the track? You've got to be kidding me.


    "In Europe a Lexus is viewed as the "Schweinmobile" or the "pig car" because of its design. Europeans who buy Lexus usually cannot afford an Audi, BMW, or Mercedes-Benz. It is third choice to Europeans, if a choice at all with those sales numbers. Lexus has strived for a long time to establish itself in Europe "


    More generalizations...Last time I checked Germay wasn't Europe..In London where I have a second home, I see a fair amount of LS430's. I have yet to see an A8 there..However there are tons of S Classes around (S320 CDI's...Now why don't they bring that to the US? I'd buy it!) Lexus in Europe has largely been an afterthought..


    I think the lack of success of Lexus can be attributed to the strong brand loyalty BMW and MB have in European countries. Contrary to what you say, Lexus cars in Europe are far more expensive than they are in the US...Also, the culture is different than the US in that they desire something else from the car..I find that my European collegues are far more tolerant of defects that I am..It's almost customary to spend their Saturdays with the car.



     That Passat is a real nice looking car..Now who stole the design, Buick or VW? I'm guessing Buick, which is kind of sad..They used to have some nice designs back in the day..


    Another Question..Why is it we don't see the S320 CDI in the US? In my frequent travels to London I see them everywhere..It's definitely a car I'd consider buying. The Diesel must give great mileage and last an eternity. I really wish MB and the rest of the marques would offer "Stripped Down" cars without all the gimmicks..It's pure opinion on my part, but I think some buyers out there feel that all these gadgets distract from the real driving experience.
  • ctsangctsang Posts: 237
    Europeans are different than Americans. Here we need a car day in and day out. Cars are necessities. In Europe, cars are toys. If a toy is always in service, it doesn't affect your life that much. If you need a car for work, that's a different story.
  • yeah....$11000.00 more for an air suspension.


    That's only 15% of the total vehicle cost, much less than the price premium of some German inferior vehicles ;-)


    the Phaeton is made of steel...the A8 aluminum. in my book that makes them pretty different. the W12 makes the 4.2's 335HP!


    W12 is offered both on the Phaeton and A8. The lightest aluminum A8 still weighs more than LS, so all aluminum construction in that car gives you is much higher body shop bills, less ductile metal for the cumple zone, and more dangerous in case of fire (remember HMS Sheffield??). The W12 power-ed porcinemobiles weigh close to 5000lbs! rendering the extra HP mute and pointless.
  • Lexus managed 20,000 in sales in Western Europe for 2004 vs. 560,000 for Audi alone. Yes, Audi sells less in the US, but at least they sold 80,000 units to Lexus 280,000 or so in NA, and this is a bigger market than Europe (not by much though)


    More than two thirds of that 80k and 560k were A4's and A3's, neither of which are luxury cars!. That's why Audi has real difficulty maintaining its claim to be a true high end luxury marquee.
  • If there is 50/50 buy/lease rate in the U.S. then that 50 percent that buyers may or may not be deterred by the price difference, thats my point.


    That may explain a 10% sales difference (i.e. 20% buyers have price as their decisive factor). The reality is that LS outsells individual German brands by a factor of 2 or more. You can't be seriously arguing that buyers in this market segment only care about price.
  • As they say, eyes are windows to the soul . . . hence the significance of drastic headlight style changes, and in general anything up front. The rest of the body is often after-thought for the general public.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    "That Passat is a real nice looking car..Now who stole the design, Buick or VW? I'm guessing Buick, which is kind of sad..They used to have some nice designs back in the day.."


    Well I wouldn't say either one of the stole the design since both of these are 2006 cars that were on the drawing board at the same time.


    You might just see a next generation S-Class diesel here for 2007 or 2008, after U.S. diesel fuel is cleaned up, low sulfur. I doubt if it will the 6-cylinder model you're talking about the S320 CDI, but the V8 next-gen S400CDI definitely has a chance here in 2007.


  • V8 and RWD sedan are both unique to Lexus in the Toyota empire. I can't think of anything unique to Audi vs. VW (that aluminum body doesn't cut it as the lightest configuration weighs 4250lbs! all you get is high body repair bill and less safety).
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Did miss the part where I clearly stated the price is but one factor? Re-read the entire post.


    You'll have to show some proof of the A8 being less safe than a LS430, otherwise its just another "opinion".


  • A-class and A3 account for over half of their respective brand unit sales in Europe! There's nothing luxrious about them, or the C-class and A4, for that matter. Combined, that's 2/3 to 3/4 of the cars coming from the marque not being luxury cars! Dangerously close to the marketting delimma that Acura faces.
  • You'll have to show some proof of the A8 being less safe than a LS430, otherwise its just another "opinion".


    The point is aluminum skin vs. steel skin, not the vehicles themselves.
  • It would be damn hard for a judge to nominate a car that is not sold/manufactured in his/her own country, no?? They know where their bread gets buttered. Audi A6 is assembled all over the world. Besides, what does "World Car of the Year" mean?? Is it better than A8??
  • There were only 100 of these made for about 260K which is also much less than the SLR, all have been spoken for and none are certified for sale in the U.S.


    So the relevence to the US would be??


    In Europe, MB selling 100 of those among a sea of A-class is not much different from Ford selling a few 550hp GT's among a sea of Focus sales.
  • Audi, not to mention BMW and Mercedes-Benz outsell Lexus at least 4 to 1 worldwide.


    Lexus was not offered in most parts of the world until this year. The bulk of Audi sales worldwide are A4's and A3's, which compete with Toyota models like Corolla (even the Camry equivalent sold in the rest of the world are more luxurious than A4's and A3's). For example, in Audi's largest market outside Europe, China, A4 costs less than a V6 Accord, much less than any Camry variant.


    Try an Audi S4 or Audi RS6 or a BMW M3 or BMW M5 sometime if you want to know what REAL driving is about.


    I had no idea. I thought we were discussing High End Luxury automobiles. I did not know that means cars that don't even idle smoothly. What's the luxury in that?!
  • Because something costs more does not make it better...only a sucker would believe that...and I am sure you and the rest of the people on this board do not fall into the sucker catagory.

    The LS 430 biggest virtues are Ride, Quiet and Dependability. Price is a bonus...Most here can afford to pay $30,000 more to get exactly what they want...but they choose the LS Base Lexus is $55 a really nice one (Custom Lux) is about 64 Sticker and an ultra stickers for about 71..
  • In a LS430 Ultra..You get through seat Cooling and Heating in the REAR SEATS...

    "a true lux auto maker is determined by their presence on the world stage"...Interesting...Audi and VW would then not be True Lux Manufactures since their Presence in the Biggest market in the world is next to Nil with their top cars.

    Passion of owners...There is a difference between Kids that like the cheaper virsions of Audi and VW and even lower end Mercedes and the more mature owners that own a Lux car because they want comfort. The enthusiasts (as I believe you would define them) generally are the Younger folks ...Us older guys are enthusiasts in a different way...Comfort, Ride, Quiet, Sound system, Dependability are the things that turn us on...Not just going around corners on mountain roads...(Which Lexus does quite well)...

    The Mature enthusiasts have voted with their pocketbook and bought LS430 in greater numbers then The S class or the 7 or the 8 or any other true Luxury car sold in this country.

    Europeans haven't been offered the Service and Availability of the LS430...That is coming SOON, then we will see what they buy. But this is AMERICA so What the europeans do or don't do as far as buying cars is not all that important to us.

    You are mixing Apples and Bananas...A4 and 6 BMW 3 and 5 Are not the cars being discussed on this board...I am sure there is a board for those cars....Real driving is very different for different folks...Age and Maturity and finincial status and Family all are factors that go into what a person buys. So is fun the ability to drive fast around corners, and ride and speed and acceleration and all around comfort and safety and size of the machine...

    A pollen filter is real important if you have allergies..Leather is importand if you have kids because it cleans up easily.

    Inate qualities are subjective...Mine are quite, dependibility, smooth comfortable ride, quality, no hassle service when I need it, safety, Your defination may be going around corners faster then I can...Everyone is different.

    Based on your diatribe it sounds like the Lux Car board is not for you...
  • vwguildvwguild Posts: 1,620
    It sounds like you are a prime candidate for a PHAETON Drive Experience...All of the things that you require and more...
  • VW and reliabilty, do they even go in one sentence?
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    to name but just a few of the prestigious awards won in Germany alone. Such credits have justifiably earned the Audi A6 its mantle as one of the most successful instant hits of all time, with both the press and public alike.

    Two things wrong with this cut-and-paste:
    1) This is not the forum for the A6
    2) All of the awards are German-based.

    Can you find something appropriate for discussion here ?
  • Oac, the real picture behind MB and Audi's brand illusion worldwide is even worse than what you pointed out:

    In November 2004, 32,200 MB cars were sold in Germany, with over half of them, 16,600 units being A-class! In other words, the overwhelming majority of MB's sold (remember C class and taxicab stripper E's account for the overwhelming majority of the remaining less-than-half) are not luxury cars at all.,,0-5-7145-1-432134-1-0-0-0- - - - -0-0-9-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0,00.html

    Audi 2004 worldwide sales consisted of: 180k A3, 310k A4, 189k A6, and a miniscule 22k A8. In other words, nearly three out of four Audis sold worldwide are not luxury cars at all.

    In contrast, Lexus doesn't even offer any volume product much smaller than E-class and A6. Even the ES330 comes fully loaded, unlike the E-class stripper taxicabs sold in Europe.

    Referring to an earlier post by "reality2" (is that alternate-reality? ;-), "schweinmobiles" is just their term for our "High End Luxury cars." What we call "fat cats" they call pigs. The German lower end models have avoided the name only because there's truely nothing luxurious or special about the majority of them. Those plebian cars account for the overwhelming majority of sales for MB and Audi.
  • reality2reality2 Posts: 303
    Check the stats for European sales before you say that the LS is more prevalent than the A8L. Also, the A8L beat the Lexus in a comparo from Motor Trend last year. It all depends on the magazine. The A8L has garnished more world-wide accolades than any car in its class. A3s aren't sold in the US first of all. Audi moved 12100 A8s in Western Europe, BMW moved 12150 7-Series, and MB moved about 16,000 S-Classes in Western Europe in 2004. Lexus sold a total of 20,000 vehicles in Western Europe, so I do not see how there are more LSs in Europe than A8s as you claim. You get a reality check and don't belittle other people because they do not agree with your opinion, because that is all it is.

    A true end high luxury marquee as you state would only apply to Rolls, Bently, etc. if you use your logic. Again, you fail to see my point. A true luxury marquee must have a world presence. Why is Lexus now turning to design and performance aspects because it sees it cannot shove mindless cars down European's throats as it does in America. World-wide, Lexus is a poser and that is it. Come back in ten years and then start your discussion.
  • Where have I ever claimed that there are more LSs in Europe than A8s? You need get a reality check yourself.

    As far as I know, Lexus is only beginning to set up a dealer network in Europe.

    Audi's worldwide presence is not a luxury marquee at all. Nearly 3 out of 4 Audis sold worldwide in 2004 were A3's and A4's. These are not luxury cars. You can't have it both ways, claiming world presence for Audi as high marquee definition then discounting plebian A3 as not relevent to the marquee because it's not yet sold in the US. Worldwide presence is quite irrelevent, it would be hard to deny Cadillac STS and DTS or Toyota Crown as high end luxury marquees even though they are only offered in their home markets.

    If you really want to talk about world-wide, MB and Audi are not lexury brands at all. The majority of their cars compete with Toyota, Ford and GM/Opel.
  • Your sound a like another jealous, hopeless europhile who spins things to fit your BS agenda. Keep dreaming about the washed out german junk produced today. Lexus is kicking down the door and they're taking over the house. You should know and do that Japan is the premier quality and manufacturing king of today and that's not changing soon. Bow down to the best and learn, adapt or pay the price like Mercedes is doing.

    German cars are inferior to what Japan makes today, I dont care what price range high-low they are inferior in build, electrical and robustness. They are moody, unpredictable, overcomplicated just like just like the people who build them. 2nd rate quality priced like Tiffany. Germany is a washed out second rate country and power globally. Their even mocked by our own defense secretary. Their high cost socialist welfare state and labor rate makes them all the more disadvantaged globally along with making cars that are delicate and break easy. Just remember Asia is where it's happening Europe is soon becoming irrelevant. The Euros are envious like you of the Asians because they work harder are more disciplined people and have the highest performing kids in schools learning to make better Lexus's.

    Audi's are the saddest case of all, not bought by hardly anyone here and made to look purdy on the outside but internals that matter are garbage and 3rd rate. The LS430 is many times better than the dismal selling, low resale value overweight porker A8 clad in aluminum. Any advantage the A8 might have now will be history when they try to benchmark the next LS like they did the bigger disaster Phaeton. The germans are clueless about quality and it shows year after year. Take your potshots at Lexus I got many more in store for consumption.
  • Why is Lexus now turning to design and performance aspects because it sees it cannot shove mindless cars down European's throats as it does in America.

    Puleeeaze! Enough American bashing already. Europeans have plenty crap cars like Fiat, Citroen and Rover that simply could not make it here in the most competitive market in the world: North America. VW/Audi may be on the brink here again soon. European bureacrats and governments provide a safety net as buyers of last resort to their domestic car brands; talk about shoving mindless cars down taxpayers' throats. Lexus moving beyond their core competence in pursuit of design and performance goals simply because they want expand their product range to conquer more market segments.

    World-wide, Lexus is a poser and that is it.

    Worldwide, an average Lexus is much more luxurious and at a much higher price point than an average MB or Audi.
  • I agree with the above this Euro poser guy is thumping his chest like the Germans make good cars. Throw a boomerang and it's going to come back and hit you on head. Get real dude! They make average quality cars with above average problems and pricing. Lexus is cleaning their clocks and now we have Infiniti executing great products to make BMW feel the hurt. BTW, the new GS looks like a million bucks in person and should hit the boring looking E class pretty hard.

    My engineer brother hates Germans cars because long ago he had an Audi A6 that was a true piece of crap that had many electrical problems and parts failing early on. Thats why I still love to pick on Audis because they to this day still continue to make designer duds as does Mercedes which is a bigger issue than irrelevant small time Audi. The only thing missing on the new Audis is the loud back up buzzer beep, beep, beep
    semi backing up.
  • I think you are right ...I need to find one to drive.
  • ctsangctsang Posts: 237
    Europe is old country and is dying. The future belongs to Asia. Look at consumer electronics. Look at how hard those kids study in Asia compare to European kids. Look at how hard people work in Japan compare to those lazy workers in Germany or France. MB will go the way of RR, only memories of the great past.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    Let's keep to the cars. We don't need to be arguing about where people work harder and other things of that nature that have nothing to do with our subject.

    Another point is that some of posts in here are getting too personal. If you don't like someone else's opinion, that's fine, but debate the opinions presented and keep what you think of the poster out of it.
  • Err... I think that Lexus is really cleaning up vs. BMW, Benz and Audi in the US, and isn't the US the biggest car market in the world? Besides, Lexus is starting dealerships in Japan, and will probably head to Europe soon enough. A bit of a reality check (not meant to offend)

    In the US, we have more money to spend on cars than anywhere else in the world (generality) Companies like Audi and Benz with the A3/4 and A,C and stripped E classes only do that because they have to in order to surivive. Also, a lot of the streets are smaller in Europe. I really don't think that I would buy a BMW or Audi over a Lexus. Lexus has them creamed (in the US) just because the cars are comparable but a bunch less. Not that I don't like Audi, but that's just because of the technical problems they all seemed to have a while back. Trust me, I hold grudges, which is perfectly normal for a comsumer. (Consuming cars, eh?)

    Here's my list of true luxury marques:
    Bentley (my favorite)
    Rolls-Royce (gaudy, but oh well)
    Mercedes-Benz (cachet! woohoo!)
    Bugatti (woot woot)
    Audi (to an extent, but I'm not buying one)
    Lexus (Traaditional luxury, and no doubt about it)

    I'm done

    Chris :)
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    Phew !

    Gets hotter and hotter in here !!

    Designman must be enjoying that rocker chair soaking all of these in, eh :)
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