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High End Luxury Cars



  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    What comparo on Edmunds are you guys talking about???

  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    No wonder I don't see any BMW 5's on the road!
  • footiefootie Posts: 636
    Let's get it right.

    Mercedes didn't invent airbags, nor were they the first to sell them on a vehicle here in the U.S. See my earlier post. The argument is between GM Labs and Allen Breed, not Mercedes.

    Current safety technology is being led by suppliers like autoliv.

    Here's what they say about themselves:

    "Autoliv - Driven for life

    Our company is a worldwide leader in automotive safety, a pioneer in both seat belts and airbags, and a technology leader with the widest product offering for automotive safety. All the leading automobile manufacturers in the world are our customers. We service them from 80 subsidiaries and joint ventures in 30 countries. We test their cars and products at 20 crash test tracks in nine countries, and we have 40,000 people globally to support them.

    We are the inventors of the side-impact airbag for chest protection, the Inflatable Curtain (IC) for head protection in side impacts and the Anti-Whiplash Seat (AWS), just to mention a few of our latest contributions to automotive safety. Now we continue to drive automotive safety by developing Roll-over Protection Systems, Night Vision Systems and Pedestrian Protection Systems."
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,690
    merc1 - I'll say it for the last time because you just don't get it. The statement was that the negative headlines - financial, quality, reliability etc etc are inescapable to any business savy person and many lux car buyers are exactly that. When those people read about the quality problems and then the financial problems that are following it they just file it away in their head. That is part of the mantra you need to be a good business person. Now you decide if they choose to forget it completely and go against every good business instinct they have or not - before committing to a large purchase or lease. In your opinion it never even enters their mind and they buy blindly. In mine they pause to give it consideration. It's a subjective argument and you won't find answers on a prices paid board. You'll find them by following the future results. Right now they look bad, worse than a year that was the worst in decades. That is all I am saying about this as it is getting all blown out of proportion.

    BMW - I think the core buyer is holding on to the old 5 probably because of styling and thinking there is nothing to gain, and maybe plenty to lose, with the new car.
  • sv7887sv7887 Posts: 351
    Are you some propaganda minister somewhere? Where do I begin with this one..Of course Lexus cars are built to a higher standard. Their unit cost is higher to begin with. There is a difference between Lexus and Toyota JDP rankings. It's like saying MB and Chrysler should have the same build quality. No doubt MB is much better. Most of their woes are electronics related and certainly not mechanical.

    "Unbalanced Whale?" This is utter nonsense. They even admitted the car wasn't equipped with the 18" tires and Euro Sport Suspension and admitted it was not a fair test. You're taking everything out of context.

    Most every comparo I read says the car was competent but not very exciting. We've already had someone post the braking distance and the LS won by a foot. (hardly a win). And what exactly are the significance of skipad numbers? I take it we all race our cars somewhere on a track..Get real. Even the 0-60 numbers are pointless. Most of us just drive around town or to work with these cars. What's your point about a S500/600/55? It's not even a fair comparo to begin with. I would hope a 5.0L V8 or V-12 would run faster. You can only compare the S430 to the LS and not the S500.

    For 13K less, the LS430 has more standard features than the S430. I shopped for both and I know what I'm talking about. They wanted 73K for a S430 4 Matic with Nav and a few other things. My 62K LS430 has way more features than the S430, and there is not a huge difference in performance. The LS is more spirited and comfortable, whilst the S is a bit harsher in ride but better at high speeds.

    The frame construction is probably the biggest factor in the equation here. Electronics as you've mentioned aren't going to make a huge difference. I've mentioned the Airbus vs Boeing Argument. And you've failed to realize no sane CEO of any airline would fly a plane that was not as safe as a competitor. No competent industry insider would dare imply an Airbus is unsafe since it has fewer safety features than a 747.

    It's like putting PreSafe in a Kia..You think all those electronics are going help if the Frame isn't built well? I'm sure MB has a great frame construction, but so does Lexus. I've taken a real world crash in my LS400 and it barely moved despite being hit at 35MPH from the side. Granted there was 7K worth of damage to it, but it kept everyone in the car safe.

  • vchengvcheng Posts: 1,284
    The frame design of the LS430 is taught as an example to students in mechanical engineering in several universities here in the US as the epitomy of current design philosophy. The strength and the weight aspects are specially emphasized, as well as the placing of the spot welds and internal gussetry.

    I do not know about Japanese or German universities.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,690
    Hmmm - then based on the theories advanced on this board every Toyota is just as good and a benckmark to be studied.
  • ctsangctsang Posts: 237
    Even if just ONE customer decides not to buy MB, that's ONE less customer for MB and ONE more customer for its competitor.
    Besides, this is not about my dad or your dad. Watch your language now.
  • ctsangctsang Posts: 237
    They do study Toyota's quality control as a benchmark in engineering schools.
  • vchengvcheng Posts: 1,284
    I just thought that tidbit would be interesting.

    I am sure Toyota makes many many mediocre cars as well. It is just that the design resources put into their Celsior/LS430 chassis are quite remarkable.

    I've had all types of cars and enjoyed them all.

    I have had a rear left wheel bearing replaced on an LS430 (a paragon of relaibility?) at 15 k miles. So far on my VW Phaeton, I have had a blown wiper motor fuse, and nothing else. But it is still too early to pronounce a verdict.

    I drove a 2004 S500 recently. Nice car, but at a speed (ahem) well above the speed limit, the driver's side window popped out of its seal. Not exactly quality build it seems.

    I figure no car is going to be perfect and for each one of us buying in this class of car, personal preferences (and prejudices) play a role.
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    Tiag, the selectiveness of your quoting of the C&D comparo is amazing, and very revealing. Any reasonable person wouldn’t have even brought up the relative skidpad and braking data from that comparo, because the article itself noted that it was an apples to oranges comparison, with the S wearing 18-inch summers and the LS 17-inch all-seasons. The parts of the article that you selectively omitted:

    “This Mercedes was also endowed with road grip exceeded only by that of the BMW. Both were equipped with optional sport suspensions and special-purpose tires...What's the extra road grip worth? Three cars in the group stand above the others, having braking distances of 169 feet or better, and skidpad adhesion above 0.82 g. The grippy trio—Mercedes, BMW, Audi—all wore summer tires.” They went on to note that the LS was tested with 17-inch all-seasons, and said “If you really want muscles, opt for the sport suspension with 18-inch summer tires.”

    As I posted before, if both cars are tested with 17-inch all-seasons, which is how CR tested, the performance metrics you seem to care most about are much closer. The LS actually edged out the S in braking performance when tested in a apples-to-apples way by CR.
  • Your Logic would make Chrysler and Mercedes the same company...Heck Chrysler is carrying Mercedes.

    All the Technology in the World is valueless if it doesn't work properly ..As I recall someone has already posted a list of often purchased parts that could effect the safety of the car.
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    Tiag, you wrote “sorry but 0-60 times aren't the only measure of performance”. Well, the existence of rear side door airbags or anti-rollover bars isn’t the only measure of safety.

    What you haven’t shown is how the absence of those safety features outweighs the less reliable brakes of the S. Last I checked, brakes are a safety item, no? CR’s reliability data for the S’s brakes, 2000 to 2003 model year cars (-2=poor to +2=excellent) (sample size inadequate to generate ratings for other years):

    -1 0 0 +1

    For the LS in the same years:

    +2 +1 +1 +2

    Now maybe more reliable brakes are more important than ‘missing’ safety features, and maybe they’re not. I can’t prove it either way, and neither can you. So why don’t you just admit that there is no conclusive objective evidence that the S is safer overall than the LS, and give the whole safety issue a rest?
  • Rear seat airbags are of little value the Curtins that protect your head and the seatbelts are the essentual safety features...So Called safety features with little more value then bragging effect is worth how much?

    They once did have a great reputation for safety and innovation...If I were buying a 60s or 70s or even 80s car it would be a Mercedes..Times change many cars now have learned from Mercedes and even helped move many of Mercedes safety innovations into the 21st. Century, The result is many cars now rival Mercedes in the area of safety.
  • Tiag:

    You constantly talk about cost cutting in the Lexus...That is true but far from the Negative you seem to want to project it to be..

    The cost saving results partially from Lexus perfected heavy use of robots to build cars...the resulting percision is one of the primary reasons for the Lexus Reliability EDGE....

    The realiability EDGE translates to not just lower built cost but also Much lower warrenty costs. (In 4 years my LS has not required any warrenty work at all...Just imagine the savings to Mercedes if their avg. customer could say the same thing)

    That is why a Lexus costs less then a Mercedes or Audi and Why it still makes a huge corporate Profit compared to the barely head above water position that mercedes finds itself in.
  • lenscaplenscap Posts: 854
    oac's numbers were incorrect. BMW sold 3,794 5 series in 2/05 versus 3,780 in 2/04. (His 7,072 figure is actually the 2005 year-to-date number.)
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    Okay but I still don't see many re-designed 5's out there.
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    I went back to the source and checked the numbers once again. Lenscap is correct. My typo error in quoting YTD rather than the 02/2005 number.

    Thx for the correction, lenscap...
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,690
    Anyone see ejerod's posts on the S-class board? I haven't been over there in ages and stopped in to see if anyone had anything on the new S-class. What a pasting he gave MB. Also take note of some of the media quotes he notes. He's a business finance/investment guy if I remember right.
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    a little tidbit from the WSJ Online:

    Jurgen Schrempp...the chief executive of DaimlerChrysler AG...predicted in 1998...DaimlerChrysler would become "the most profitable automotive company in the world."

    Well hopefully he'll be more correct when it comes to predicting better quality to come from MB.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,690
    That shows you he doesn't have a grip on reality. But he didn't say a timeframe. So he has the rest of time for it to happen and still be right.
  • pablo_lpablo_l Posts: 491

    Subscription needed. Quite glowing about Audis prospects to position itself ahead of the pack. We will see...
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    ejerod, an MB owner recently had this to say about his MBs....

    "....I have had 3 Benzes in the last 4 years. 2001 S500, 2002S 500, 2003 SL 500. I had enough lemons to make lemonade for the Pittsburgh Steelers for the next 50 years!!! My wife has had 2 lexus GS models that we have leased over the last 8 years. Not a single issue out of either of them. The one she has now rides like the day we bought it. MB ? Not ever again. At least not until they can build a car that I can drive with out fear of it falling apart. Lexus will be my car of choice from now on. Infinity will be a close second!..."

    ejerod, "Mercedes-Benz S-Class" #1686, 23 Feb 2005 1:03 pm

    Ouch !!! MBs as lemons ? And the GS not having any problems since birth ?? Now, where is tiag_m5's safe MB, when the car can't even be trusted to drive from point A to point B.

    MB better get its quality issues straightened out ASAP, otherwise the fall will be steep. Now, that is a prediction, Merc1 !
  • Stop it already Michael. Does anyone ever - ever - buy the Lexus LS for performance?
  • Did you say FRAME design? I didn't know Lexus built pick-up trucks.
  • Simple answer - it's a cheaper car.
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    Consumer Reports had the largest response to its latest annual auto reliability survey ever, allowing the nonprofit organization to compile reliability portraits on more than 810,000 vehicles, up from 675,000 vehicles in 2003 and 480,000 in 2002. This is the second year in a row that Consumer Reports surveyed subscribers to both its magazine and its web site,, a total of more than 5 million consumers throughout the U.S. The survey was conducted in the spring of 2004 and covered 1997 to 2004 models.

    And now... drum roll....

    2005 New-Car Reliability:

    1. Scion
    2. Lexus
    3. Toyota
    4. Subaru
    5. Honda
    6. Acura
    7. Mitsubishi
    8. Infiniti
    9. Hyundai
    10. Suzuki


    Land Rover

  • A-8 owners who are tired of the dull ride will step up to the LS for performance.
  • Simple answer...It is a better and LESS EXPENSIVE car...
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,690
    I said it before and I'll say it again - Gotta love you OAC. You know how to nail it.

    I may take that GS out for a spin tomorrow. I've heard great things about it.
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