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High End Luxury Cars



  • stroudmanstroudman Posts: 192
    Sorry, I never meant to indicate that benz had several MORE sedans than that, just that that is the most they would offer, with choices in engine and trim, as well. I personally tend to think of mercedes-benz as an entity that has fallen victim to popularity, kind of like a great band that starts getting too big of a following, and playing bigger and bigger venues. There's too many people talking in their ear; "play this arena" and "try to sound more like so-and-so, their records are HOT!" Don't get me wrong, I love their current "sound," I just wish they would regroup and quit trying so hard for the mass appeal, that was never what made them special, and they're not very good at it.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,690
    Great point. I've been saying this for awhile and so has merc1. Great boutiques never become great dept. stores. BTW - I completely side with you on the maintenance issue. In my book it's wrong for the customer to even ask.
  • dhanleydhanley Posts: 1,531
    "Also, the 2005 Jaguar Super V8, the flagship XJ, gets better fuel economy than the BMW 760Li."

    True. But the 760 is heavier, and has more HP and torque. No bad for 1 less mpg highway, 2 less city.

    I agree with your BMW styling comments; i am not pleased with the new look. Jag definitely, IMO, makes a pretier vehicle.

    PS: i think we all know what the aluminum frame looks like now.

  • rcf8000rcf8000 Posts: 619
    I got my May R&T today. I was especially surprised that the S500 came in dead last in the rankings, even though it had the best 0-60 time, the best 1/4 mile time, the highest "ride" score, the highest "gearbox" score, the lowest 70 mph noise level, and the highest observed mpg of the 5 cars tested. This is pretty amazing performance for a car that is in its 7th year of production and about to be replaced. The S500 was the only one of the cars with 17 inch wheels; the others had 19s or 18s. Maybe this had something to do with its relatively low handling and braking scores? The S500 also had the second to lowest weight of the 5 cars. Doesn't seem like its an obsolete design to me.
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    Are you going to keep us hanging? Can you give us a synopsis of the results? Just Euro Sedans? Good, that may keep a lid on the Circular Talk Society. Unless of course someone from the Land of the Rising Sun Club launches a missile at Stuttgart.

    "Doesn't seem like its an obsolete design to me."

    Well we have the RL Large coming out soon. Progress you know.
  • rcf8000rcf8000 Posts: 619
    Ranking from 1st to 5th: 745Li, A8L, XJ8L, Phaeton V8, and S500. The ranking was the same for price-independent and price-dependent.
  • stroudmanstroudman Posts: 192
    too tired to indulge it today, daylight savings time has me turned upside down. I will try to strike one blow if I can...

    -When you look far and wide enough, you can dig up some dirt on every culture, government, business entity, etc., out there. When it comes to ethics, politics, morals and the like, you can't judge the past in the context of the present.

    -I'll say this, as much as I LOVE the CLS, and I do, I am glad they don't offer it in yellow.
  • xkssxkss Posts: 722
    No way.

    I'm glad luxury cars like the Maserati Quattroporte are made. It isn't just a way to get from point A to point B like a Lexus LS. It has soul in a way that a Lexus will never match. Plus, it is going to be available with a Ferrari V-12 according to




    Jaguar should have given Road & Track the new Super V8 to test. The S500 starts at almost $87,000 while the Super V8 starts at $89,995.

    "During World War II, the company [Toyota] was dedicated to truck production for the Imperial Army."

  • stroudmanstroudman Posts: 192
    Good God, that is a beautiful car. Have you driven one? When it comes to style, the Italians definately provide lots of "eye."
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    A real looker, imho. I haven't driven one but if I recall, the autorags didn't like the ride very much.
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    My parents stayed away from Japanese cars until they were over 60 years old, now they've owned both Acura and Lexus...before that it was various GM, Ford, and even Fiat product (none of which they were terribly happy with)...

    ...they were in China at the time Japan invaded...

    There are people out there who similarly won't buy German product because of the war association.

    Time to get over it all, imho. The people working for those companies now are not old enough to have had anything to do with WW2.
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    What happened ?

    Anyway, I'm going to try to repost the salient links, again.
  • blckislandguyblckislandguy Posts: 1,150
    Stroudman, you're a good man. Some people just don't understand (and this lack of understanding often is positively correlated with income and formal education) that reciprocity is the basic norm of social life. To have to remind a high income adult of this is absurd.

    Attn: Jag bashers: BMW used the Nikasil liners in their 7 Series also a decade or so ago. The results are easily seen on the 7 Series Board where they discuss the lousy V8 engines of the mid-90s.

    XKSS, thanks for the great photos and links. The XJ sedan in Zircon looks fantastic and I think given the low MSRP is a good buy.

    Now, if Jaguar would just call Haldex (the supplier of the electronic AWD to Volvo) they would have a chance of moving up in the big sedan market and perhaps put to rest that it is a "woman's car". I know I am thin ice when I say this, but a lot of the target audience in the Northeast tend to be males that go into the hospital, plant or office early and stay late. They are now doing this in MB four matics or lux SUVs because 6 months a year you maybe ain't going to get home at 8PM in a rear wheel driver. Say the AWD bumped up the XJ Moroney by 3K. That would still be thousands under a comparable S four matic, there is no 7 Series AWD, and Lexus ? By going AWD with the sedan it would open up the Northeast US market. .
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    Strange coincidence today for me as well. I was driving out of the parking lot of the office and there, in stark contrast to the rest of the car-masses rested a new silver/black CLS500. I stared for a long second to see the *banana-like* impression you alluded to, but alas, what I saw was an Oldsmobile Aurora impersonator ! That car is just not doing it for me. Too much curves, too slopy, too droopy, too.... ran out of adjectives....

    What's the point/purpose of the CLS again ? cos I don't get it....
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    I am headed out to Tokyo and S Korea for a couple of weeks in June and should scoop up as much info as I can get on the Lexus launch in Japan, and especially on the new IS/GS/LS/LX and their hybrid variants..... I am so much looking forward to that trip. I have already arranged to arrive 2 days ahead of my business meetings to spend some time looking and nosing around.
  • stroudmanstroudman Posts: 192
    Anyone who wants to complain about droopy front ends needs to direct an equal amount of ire to the new 6-series. Maybe even more...

    -the point of the CLS is a more eccentric design statement from Benz, perhaps the same way the 300/magnum are to chrysler-dodge, that also blends practicality (4-doors, big trunk) with emotional elements of an impractical sports car. It has definitely polarized people, they either feel strongly one way or the other about it, but very few are indifferent. You should drive one...
  • xkssxkss Posts: 722
    An XJ with awd would be nice, but I'd like a limited-slip differential more and snow tires.
  • iancariancar Posts: 31
    Many people may find this funny. A luxury minivan? Or found the minivan trend had been ended a decade ago. Sorry to say, Japanese companies had brewed this idea for a decade now. Japan's luxurious minivans are now killing the sell of SUV and luring some big sedans buyers. Just back from Japan, I was offered to set inside a honda Elysion (Honda? yes). The interiors are identical to the 7-series and everything inside is exectly what you would expect from a limo. My Japanese friend told me that "SUV have deep deperciation because not many people are looking for them anymore" As a sidenote, Japanese fuel cost about $2.5-3.5 per gallon and SUV are closed to extinction. European fuel cost about $3.5-4.5 per gallon and big cars become harder to find. What about North America? Will the luxury market fall into the same trend? From SUV drop to minivan(or worse, big wheelers to small size luxury)? R-class from MB seems to be a destine loser to me but could this hit the new world as M-class did a decade ago?
  • paldipaldi Posts: 210
    Oh dear. I did it again!


    4Motion, good looks, great price Phaeton, (by Volkswagen)
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Once again everyone in the U.S. gets their mags before me. I'm already waiting on C&D to read their comparo, now R&T too!

    The S500 dead last huh? Thats interesting considering all the categories you say it topped. What exactly did they say as to why it placed last?

  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    "Jaguar's present condition surprises me. Unlike MB they have a focused line: three sedans, one with a wagon variant, and a two seater. The product is great, the XJ sedans are 10K-15K less than the problematic Germans, the new sports car looks great, the AWD sedan and now a touring wagon variant are ideal for the Northeast, etc. What's not to like? Yet they can't move the iron. Probably they are hobbled by reliability legacy issues, the lack of a macho, uber sedan image, and as a result low residuals which means higher lease payments in this predominantly lease driven market segment."

    Jaguar's situation really isn't surprising when you actually look at it. For one the X-Type never lived up to expectations. It was a fwd car made awd to be sold as Jaguar. No one was fooled by this. Saying it has awd was a joke because obviously if Jaguar was serious about AWD they'd offer it on their other sedans also. Everyone knows that this was done to prevent a fwd Jaguar from being sold here, though now there is a fwd X-Type in Europe. The S-Type was introduced for 2000 and since then the entire class in which it competes has been done over. Every other car in the class is newer. The XK as pretty as it is, is as old as time itself. It uses a chassis from a car that dates back to the 70's. The XJ while modern and nice can't do it alone. Jaguar's situation like Mercedes' is crystal clear to me. Jaguar's is old cars and/or cars that aren't up to Jaguar specs...the X-Type. A wagon isn't what Jaguar needs. People who want a wagon look at Volvo, Audi, Mercedes, not Jaguar.

    Jaguar needs a crossover or an SUV, but that won't happen according to Ford. Land Rover and Volvo have those covered withing the PAG.

    I don't think past reliability problems are their problem at all, they've always had that yet sold pretty good until their space got crowded. I'm curious though to know why you think Jaguars are so reliable now? Where did the XJ place as a model in the precious surveys?

  • rcf8000rcf8000 Posts: 619
    The S500 ranked last in "slalom", "skidpad", "braking, 60-0mph", "braking 80-0mph", "driving excitement", and "luggage space" (subjective evaluation). I agree that the S500 needs a bigger trunk, but the published trunk space capacity for the S500 is greater than that of the A8L and the Phaeton, so this rating seems a bit puzzling. The S500 rated 4th in "fuel economy", even though the observed mpg was the highest. (It is 4th in EPA mpg.) It also rated 4th in "steering", and "handling".
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    Someone noted maybe on a different board that the S500 was tested with 17" wheels and the others were on 18" or 19" and that this might have something to do with some of the test results.

    Of course if it had been a Lexus wearing 17" and Germans wearing 18"+, any poor Lexus results would have been claimed by one germancarfan or another to have nothing to do with wheels and tires. ;)
  • rcf8000rcf8000 Posts: 619
    I noted the 17" wheels vs 18s and 19s (Post #8883)
  • xkssxkss Posts: 722

    The next XK will use the new XJ's aluminum chassis. It will have to meet new European pedestrian safety regulations. The new XJ is reliable because it uses relevant technology (unlike the new 7 series), the factory just builds them better, and I've talked with several owners of the new XJ who have said it is reliable. Please check the following link:

    New aluminum Jaguars
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    Personally I'd like to see more vehicles in the U.S. along the lines of either the R or a "luxury minivan". I want to replace the LX that my wife drives with something less gas guzzling, and it isn't clear when there will be a hybrid out.

    IMHO the R should offer optional 7 or 8-person seating...lack of such an option will limit its appeal among soccer moms...certainly my wife, anyway.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    None of that has anything to do with the reliability of the XJ, just the construction.

  • ctsangctsang Posts: 237
    Have you driven the Sienna LTD model? You will swear you are in a Lexus minivan.
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