High End Luxury Cars

tagman

I see a concensus here . . . a general majority, but not unanimous. Lexus has missed the boat in Europe due to lacking popular product, specifically diesel powered vehicles. As almost everyone here understands, as this European product deficiency changes . . . and it most certainly will because Toyota/Lexus is smart enough and determined enough . . . then Lexus will ultimately be selling more product in Europe. This is common business sense and Lexus has a motherlode of business sense.

Interestingly, as a parallel benefit to Lexus, this development of diesel-powered vehicles could also further advance their grip on the U.S. market, because over the same period that they begin to advance their diesel marketshare in Europe, so could they in the U.S.

One final point . . . if down the road Lexus ultimately introduces diesels to the U.S. market, they will further the cause of diesel powered vehicles. A Lexus diesel will give an endorsement of sorts to diesel power in general, and the side effect of that will be to benefit the diesel market in general, which will ultimately help not only Lexus but other diesel-powered vehicles. Mercedes diesel-powered vehicles, particularly, would actually benefit from a Lexus diesel, IMO, as the diesel would then be perceived as an even more legitimate and acceptable alternative. After all, a lot of folks would respond to Lexus' stamp of approval of diesel, and might actually buy one . . . and not necessarily a Lexus, given Mercedes incredible history of some of the world's best diesel-powered vehicles.

TagMan

drfill

But is it possible that Lexus INS'T INTERESTED in the furthering of Diesel technology, worldwide, or especially here, in the US?

I am not feeling so well these days, so maybe it's the antibiotics talking! :sick:

Since Toyota/Lexus has established such market dominance in Hybrid tech, and the US can't seem to get enough of Lexus/Toyota/Hybrids, maybe their plan is to stick with what the PRIMARY market demands?

Maybe it's in lexus' best interest to push Hybrids, and stay away from Diesel tech, for now? Other companies are well ahead of Lexus in Diesel, and Lexus is well ahead in Hybrids, so maybe Lexus is playing to their strengths?

Maybe Lexus doesn't have an infinite budget? Maybe Lexus gets to use only the profit they generate for R&D, and Toyota doesn't feed them at will? Toyota money is reinvested in Toyota, Lexus money goes to Lexus. Lexus USA, big success, big profit, big R&D. Lexus Europe, small profits, small R&D.

Maybe Lexus doesn't like Diesel use due to the difficulties with emissions? Maybe they don't see the business plan as rosy and they do Hybrids?

Maybe Lexus, itself, only gets x number of R&D dollars based on sales of that brand, not unlimited funding to fight two different technology battles on two very different continents?

Does TOyota have almost infinite financial resources? Yes. How did they get that? By spending wisely.

Maybe they just see diesel tech/Europe as too tough a road to hoe right now. And maybe Lexus USA gets all the R&D money they need for Hybrids because the business plan and ROI justify it to Toyota?

In other words, Lexus Europe is not pulling a profit, so they get less money. Lexus USA makes tons of money, so they get to reinvest all that profit back into new technology and redesigns?

With new plants coming in South America, several in NA and Canada, defending the Home market at 40% (toyota), and trying to build up Lexus in Japan, maybe they see the US and Japan as better investments, with better long term value, than Europe? Maybe they see the Germans as too strong in Europe to throw money at that problem?

DrFill

anthonyp

It would seem to me that the low end torque of a diesel coupled to an electrical motor would not accomplish the same results as the lower torque gas engine coupled with the high torque of an electrical motor...Therefore it should be hybred vs diesel...If they really put a nice sized diesel fuel tank in the car with what I have read about the high hp diesel along with what could be spectacular mpg results---say 35 mpg --It would give me pause for thought. Further with the high priced cars --eighty thousand and up--that is getting to the point where the losses on depreciation make a person really think....IMO if the manufacturers didn`t change the style at all for at least six years and further made the cars easy to upgrade with electronic pods, that could then justify the depreciation, as the car would be more utilitarion....We`l just have to wait and see what the ls600 turns out to be in theprice department....I would venture to bet the price is well below the hundred thousand dollar mark....After all that would be the way Lexus has broken into a segment in the past....Tony

houdini1

Maybe Lexus should just charge more for their cars in Europe. If they want to pay more then why not let them?

This would be too simple. That is why I don't buy that Lexus has a cut rate image in Europe. The Europeans want diesels. Lexus does not have them. It is that simple.

lexusguy

Diesels and hybrids have opposing strengths, though. Hybrids are strongest in around town, stop-and-go traffic, but basically useless on the highway. Diesels are at their most efficient in a low rev, highway cruise. Combining the two seems like the perfect match.

tagman

Doc, Hope you feel better soon.

Doc . . . 1 + 2 = 3.

Here is 1. There is a big market for automobiles in Europe.

Here is 2. Toyota/Lexus is a world giant in the manufacturing of high quality automobiles.

Here is 3. Toyota/Lexus should sell lots of vehicles in Europe.

Any spin on why they should NOT sell vehicles is contrary to their very purpose.

Simply, they need diesels in Europe.

Hybrid and diesel vehicles can and will co-exist in the United States. Diesels have a long history and will, in fact, be selling MORE within the next years. The emissions situation is basically solved with the new low-sulphur fuel.

Hybrid technology will improve and become more mainstream and less expensive.

To go a step further, theoretically, a diesel hybrid can work from an engineering standpoint, regardless of the extra torque of a diesel engine, as one poster was concerned. In fact, extra torque contributes an advantage, and not a disadvantage. Efficiency (diesel) combined with efficiency (electric motors) results in even more efficiency (diesel hybrid). I am NOT, however, suggesting that anyone will actually build diesel hybrids. I am only saying that it is entirely possible.

Doc, business success is always about timing. The business world can not be conquered overnight. It takes a long-term strategy. Toyota/Lexus has been brilliant going down the bumpy road of world business. Sometimes there are potholes and obstacles. Since timing is everything, perhaps Lexus' timing is upon them to consider introducing diesel-powered vehicles in the very near future. It all happens a step at a time.

If Lexus vehicles were soley dependent upon marketing hype and clever sales gimmicks I would be concerned, but since they manufacture world-class high quality vehicles, they can compete in Europe from a position of strength with a reputation for reliability.

Once Lexus introduces quality diesels to Europe, they will be armed and dangerous, IMO.

TagMan

ctsang

Nobody buys a HELM with a diesel in it whether it's in Asia, USA, or Europe. Diesels are for trucks, for working people.

blkhemi

"world's first LED headlights"

That's a claim Lexus may want to retract. My '06 A8 W-12 has LED and conventional HID headlamps.

merc1

Reliability is a necessary quality for any main stream car. MB and BMW can still sell because they WERE reliable and some of their models are marginally acceptable. But that will not stay static in the face of strong competition.

You're kidding right? Everyone knows this. You missed the point - that relibility can only take Lexus so far in Europe if don't have what the customer primarily buys, diesels.

Do you realize that Lexus is a North American brand for many years? Toyota introduced Lexus to Japan itself last year. Of course, you can export the car to any country in the world. But the emphasis is clear.

Is there a point here? We were talking about Europe not Japan or North America. Lexus has also gotten off to slow start in Japan too since you brought it up.

The fact that Lexus doesn't offer the right product to you, does not imply that Lexus cannot please the average Joe in Germany. You are not part of that demography, so don't speak for other people.

Well if you look at their sales numbers for the last 15 years you'd know they can't please the average joe in Germany. I don't have to be part of any "demography" to see that Lexus doesn't have the right lineup to be a force in Germany or the rest of Europe.

M

stevekilburn

Well said Merc1. This is a very good answer. Most people are so mesmerized by Toyota's success in US, that they think Toyota is "Mistake Free" and can never or has never made an error.

It is true that Toyota along with BMW has made profits every single year in past 50 years (except BMW in 1999/2000) but that does not mean Toyota has not made mistakes. Although they have a intuition to correct those mistakes in long-run.

Toyota has made mistakes in Europe as far diesels go. Like Audi took 10 years to introduce SUVs in the US but now is hurriedly trying to correct it, Lexus too made a huge blunder and did not see it coming that diesels in Europe are going to be dominant. FOR 15 YEARS.

But Lexus might try to correct that in Future.

Also, Lexus should better do something about the cut-rate image by raising prices in line with the germans or they will not succeed in Europe.

stevekilburn

Lexus LEDs are mobile and world first. The LEDs on Audi are fixed.

stevekilburn

70% of all high end luxury sedans in Europe are diesel powered in Europe and 35% in Asia. May be you need to come out of that monastery in Burma and smell some diesel.

stevekilburn

Diesel-hybrid is an engineering problem and it will be solved in the near-future. 4-5 years. Diesel-hybrids will become a healthy part of the market just like Gas-hybrids.

I believe by 2020 hybrids with advanced Li-ion batteries will outsell conventional gas and diesel engines if they can pass the post-accident safety tests. Both for passengers and rescue workers.

stevekilburn

I hope you are not having stomach flu. I think most of your points are not healthy.

It is in Toyota's best interests to have similar kind of market share in Europe as they have it in US.

Without diesels that is impossible. Therefore, the urgent necessity for diesels, especially in Europe and more so for Lexus.

You may be right, germans are very successful in Europe. But Long term success only happens when they start and persevere. So instead of throwing billions of dollars in Formula1 technology they should focus on diesels.

Instead by investing 20-30 million dollars in sports car racing in NASCAR, Le Mans and American Le Mans and some european local races, they will get the same effect in terms of sporting credentials, visibility and competitiveness.

Look at Audi, they are so successful in Europe, they participate in Le Mans and Sebring and they dont waste loads of cash like Mercedes in Formula1.

merc1

Decent points....but this:

You may be right, germans are very successful in Europe. But Long term success only happens when they start and persevere. So instead of throwing billions of dollars in Formula1 technology they should focus on diesels.

I can't agree with. A F1 win matters big time in Europe and embellishes the brand big time. Europe buyers care about racing a great deal and in stark contrast to the American racing scene a lot of European cars/engines are somewhat related to the racing programs. Americans for the most part couldn't care less about racing and I can see why consider that all except for a few of the racing cars (except Vette, Viper etc.) don't have anything to do with their racing counterparts.

M

stevekilburn

Sorry to break this to you but F1 management is seriously considering and have indeed considered cancelling several races in europe because of very low attendance. I know many Europeans and I have lived in Europe. They are moving more towards sports car racing. You can see it in the rising popularity of le Mans, 24-Nurburgring, 24-Spa belgium and many others.

F1 popularity is consistently and permanently waning, though not sharply, but gradually. Its rising in Asia because Asians ape Europeans in certain areas because of colonial slave mind-set. I think F1 will loose lustre when Ecclestone dies in next 10-15 years and will eventually become a vintage outfit.

On the other hand racing will move more towards sports car racing like American Le Mans.

merc1

Old news actually Steve. F1 isn't going to die anytime soom and those are only certain countries that have been talked about as far as pulling out, but the series remains a huge draw to the images of the manufacturers that compete. Yeah after Ecclestone is gone they might be in trouble according to some, but some of the things he has done in the past I thought were really dumb haven't really hurt F1 so I'm not sure.

M

tagman

So, yesterday evening, the family is at an Easter get-together, and I am chatting with a friend who I haven't seen in a while, and I, of course, start talking about cars, which is natural for me . . . and certainly most all of you, as well. Just for information, he drives an '03 S-Class AMG and loves the car and the power.

Along with other vehicles, I mentioned the upcoming LS600hL. He knew nothing about it. I was a little surprised, but the more I thought about it I realized that it is probably typical at this point, except for those of us that are much more interested. I started to tell him about it, and the moment I used the word "hybrid", he chimed in, "I don't need a hybrid . . . I like a car with lots of power, and you know I don't really give a da-- about gas mileage."

I explained to him that hybrid technology isn't just about gas mileage, and that adding the electric motors to the V-8 will deliver V-12 performance closing in on around 500 HP, yet still getting reasonable mileage at the same time.

"Really?", was his reply. His tone and facial expression indicated he just didn't get it . . . he was stuck in his preconception.

So, we talked a little more about cars, but I realized we would be better to talk baseball, which we both enjoy. He likes nice cars, but knows little about them in the true sense.

So . . . is this typical? How many people out there will NOT understand the added power that hybrid technology offers? Will the public be stuck in the perception that hybrid vehicles are WEAKER than ICE alternatives? Will the real truth about hybrids become known to the public in adequate numbers to sustain sufficient market growth when it becomes needed??

There will be a LARGE learning curve ahead for the general public, and I wonder if Toyota/Lexus, Honda, and others will be able to spend enough marketing money, and have enough dealer showroom education available to truly get the truth out. Maybe hybrids really will be polarized in their acceptance, and never become acceptable in the middle ground . . . only to be delegated to Prius/Civic cars, or special limited techno-marvel vehicles such as the LS600hL.

Is my friend typical in his perception and reaction to the word "hybrid"? Whad'ya think?

TagMan

psychdoc

Most folks can't tell you the difference between drum and disc brakes, front vs. rear wheel drive or 40 profile tires vs. 70 profile tires.

I'd venture a guess that if you gave a multiple choise tes to people re: Does the electric motor in a hybrid mostly help:
A-City mileage
B-Highway mileage
C-Both about equally
D-What the heck are you Northern city slickers talking about anyway

You wouldn't get more than a 25% correct.

Sad, really sad.

Most people never even read the instruction booklet that comes with a car.

syswei

I think you're right, to many people hybrid = prius, and based on the media reporting of the prius, they also think prius = mpg and assume that performance has to take a hit if a car is getting good mpg. They don't realize that there are different approaches to hybrid, i.e., you can add hybrid to a v6 and use it INSTEAD of a v8, which is the "economy" approach; or you can add hybrid to a v8 and use it instead of a v8, which is more of a "power" approach.

Naming the Lexus hybrid "600" I think is intended to establish a starting point in thinking about the car, for the uninitiated.

ctsang

Have you been to Hong Kong? Diesels are for taxis and trucks. I challenge you to find a diesel HELM there. Check the head of states in Europe and see how many of them ride in a diesel. None, my friend. You may need to see the world. I have. You think people who can afford HELM care about mileage? We actually like very high gas price because there will be less cars on the streets blocking us.

tagman

Have you been to Hong Kong? Diesels are for taxis and trucks. I challenge you to find a diesel HELM there. Check the head of states in Europe and see how many of them ride in a diesel. None, my friend. You may need to see the world. I have. You think people who can afford HELM care about mileage? We actually like very high gas price because there will be less cars on the streets blocking us.

Unless something has been lost in translation, I will tell you, "my friend", that there is something terribly arrogant about the way you put all that, especially the last sentence. You have inferred that your financial status has somehow made you superior to those with less affluence. In this country, I would probably be considered a fairly successful fellow, but I don't think for a split-second that my financial status gets me any more of God's love (or right to drive on the street!) than anyone from any other socio-economic group.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, and ask you . . . is that really what you meant? Hopefully I've misunderstood you.

TagMan

ctsang

The answer is the same as why corporate jets are popular. No need to deal with the masses in the airports.

tagman

The answer is the same as why corporate jets are popular. No need to deal with the masses in the airports.

Diesels are for trucks, for working people.

The demographics for the vast majority of HELM buyers does not include corporate jets, and I am of the opinion that a diesel engine can be right at home in a luxury car, particularly a modern diesel. Sorry, but I don't agree with the attitude that they are for lowly taxis and trucks. And what's with the remark from an earlier post about "working people"? I am curious . . . do you recognize the arrogance in that kind of remark? Can a better bridge be built here in the exchange of opinions . . . one without the arrogance . . . if you get what I mean?

Surely you must realize that the days of the old original sluggish, smoking, noisey, stinky diesel are rapidly changing to an incredibly powerful, efficient, quiet, and clean-burning diesel . . . don't you? It seems quite natural that such a powerplant should navigate its way more and more into the luxury segment.

TagMan

anthonyp

He is just that way.. and has been that way ...tony

houdini1

I guess we can count ourselves lucky that a VIP like cstang would take the time from his busy schedule to address the likes of us. I'm surprised he doesn't hire someone to post for him. In my experience, "Them thats got it, don't flaunt it".

blkhemi

Not so says Audi. The upcoming S8, which will come to market before any variant of the new LS, will have steering-linked and fixed LED headlamps/taillamps. The Lexus' LED's are neither world first nor will they be the first to be mass-produced. I know it's nit-picky, but facts are facts.

michael_mattox

TAGMAN:

It could be that ctsang has reached a station in life where he actually sees and experiences and understands these issues.

It could also be that in his culture people are very straight forward with their comments. People in some cultures think Americans are very Phony because we don't just come out and speak bluntly. The fact that his style is different then ours does not imply Arrogance.

ljflx

The last S8 sold about 500 cars here on its last run - maybe. In many ways it probably fails to qualify as a mass produced car. Anyway the thing is no big deal one way or the other as far as I'm concerned.

Tagman - many inquiries about the LS600H into my dealership already. I have no doubt it will be a big deal. BTW - nice post back re Hong Kong. Tony's right on the money there and further pursuit of that discussion isn't worth it.

Michael - that is one hell of a reach. That is arrogance beyond arrogance in my book.

emauss

I for one (and based upon my reading of this forum, maybe the only one) was *very* impressed with the Phaeton V10 TDI. Maybe the fact that most people had no idea what it was added to its intrigue, but I was duly impressed. My own A8L dimmed in comparison!

tagman

ljflx - regarding Mr. Hong Kong ... thank you. I'll consider you the trail guide who has been down that path before, and I will therefore take your feedback to the bank on this one.

There is really no surprise that the LS600hL will be a big hit, is there? It's a freakin' slam dunk if there ever was one. Unless something unfortunate happens to this vehicle ... admittedly, so far, I am completely impressed with a Lexus for the first time ever.

I guess we'll hear every spin imagineable on this car until it FINALLY comes out. But heck, that's half the fun, isn't it?

Take care,

TagMan

blkhemi

500 cars in 2 years, it may not sound like bunch, in which it isn't, but put into perspective how many M or AMG cars are sold a year. Not very many are "mass-produced". There is a misconception about what makes a car mass-produced. Here in the US, if a car has met EPA and DOT safety, environmental and crash standards, this makes the car mass-produced. The Maybach and RR's sell in relatively low numbers, but they are considered widely available.

Two years ago, the Lotus Elise "failed" to qualify as a "mass-produced" car because of it's non-compliance of US regulations. Now that it has met these requirements, it's now considered mass-produced here in the States. What gives? The Ferarri Enzo and Ford GT sold in modest numbers, oh but because they're sports cars, they have a green pass to be labeled mp, but not the old and upcoming S8? Interesting.

blkhemi

This company is really on a "power" trip. It's not wicked enough to stuff a 5.5L s/c V-8 in C,E,S,M,CL-S and everything else anymore. So to reassure that MBZ stays at the top of the game, they actually let AMG build a new motor from scratch for the very first time. This should elevate their already awesome powerplants over and beyond anybody's expectations.

This engine is purported to be 25% faster than the current engines yet being thrifftier and cleaner by 20%, due to a switch to 4 valves/cyl and sans the supercharger. I'm not a huge M-B fan, but I do have to take my hat off to the company as they're one of the few foreign makes to put this much power to the ground. It's like the Detroit of Germany(engine wise). Well done MB.

More on diesel talk. I'm not quite sold on the whole hybrid bandwagon, but I've been sold on diesel power for years. And if no carmaker can build them right, MB can. Almost all of central Europe's heavy capacity trucks and vans are powered by an MBZ or Volvo diesel. And it was reported that DCX is working on getting 50-state compliance for the E320 CDI. I think MB is holding off on jumping on the hybrid bandwagon to concentrate on diesel technology as this is one of the simplest engines to construct, but one of the hardest to refine, market, and sell to the upper crust American buyers. But if the CDI is anything to go by, Mercedes is well on the way to convincing a lot of potential buyers that diesels need not be smokey, gruff, loud, slow, and smelly no longer.

tagman

blkhemi - Considering the nature of the Mercedes/AMG relationship and the ground-up engine development, do you think Mercedes would ever get to use an AMG-developed engine without the AMG badge and bring it in under the Mercedes standard engine selection umbrella?

Diesels - - you and I are on the same page. BTW, 50-state compliance looks very promising with BluTech and low-sulphur fuel.

TagMan

british_rover

Re the Range Rover.

LRNA sold just over 13,000 Range Rovers last year so compared to the Maybach, Elise or any Ferrari the Range Rover is sold in huge numbers.

The Supercharged Range Rover or Westminster edition Range Rover is sold in very small numbers. 1,200 or less for the Supercharged Range Rover and only 300 for the Westminster.

ljflx

The last I checked AMG sold about 15K cars worldwide. But to me an S8 is not the same as an AMG anyway. Still the LCD headlights are nothing special to me regardless of who mass produces them first.

Tagman - have you seen any/many new S class cars on the road. I haven't seen one yet and I'm really surprised about that. I don't doubt that they are selling, I'm just surprised I haven't seen one.

oac

This company is really on a "power" trip. It's not wicked enough to stuff a 5.5L s/c V-8 in C,E,S,M,CL-S and everything else anymore. So to reassure that MBZ stays at the top of the game, they actually let AMG build a new motor from scratch for the very first time. This should elevate their already awesome powerplants over and beyond anybody's expectations.

This engine is purported to be 25% faster than the current engines yet being thrifftier and cleaner by 20%, due to a switch to 4 valves/cyl and sans the supercharger. I'm not a huge M-B fan, but I do have to take my hat off to the company as they're one of the few foreign makes to put this much power to the ground. It's like the Detroit of Germany(engine wise). Well done MB.

I often wonder why so much power being stuffed into mainstream cars ? I mean, the highways here in the US are 65 - 75mph. How fast do you need to drive with a 6.3L 600HP car ? I tell you something, I drive this little Matrix (love this car) and with its small 4-cyl 130hp, that car can fly... It will get to my destination at the same time as driving an S65 at same speed, won't it ? Of course, with the latter, I get there in style... right ? I am OK with a 300HP car, which already is plenty for the road ways out here. If I ever live in Germany with its autobahns, then by all means give me an Enzo and get out of my way

oac

Tagman - have you seen any/many new S class cars on the road. I haven't seen one yet and I'm really surprised about that. I don't doubt that they are selling, I'm just surprised I haven't seen one.

OK I am not Tagman (last I checked :P ) but I can put in a word here. This past Easter Sunday, on a cruise downtown with the kids, I saw this jet black S550. What a beauty ! Yes, it is starting to grow on me, except the rear, specifically the trunk area. That is the single blemish I see. Of course, the wheel flare is well hidden by the dark color. If you want this S, buy it in dark colors. It is absolutely stunning. I haven't seen the new LS460 and its variants yet so I cannot compare styling. Until I see the LS, I will say the MB is the best styled out there of the HELM cars.

tagman

Tagman - have you seen any/many new S class cars on the road.

OK I am not Tagman (last I checked ) but I can put in a word here.

This is a terrific new Edmunds feature. I sign in and somehow I've already posted and I didn't even know it. Just love that automation.

Actually, oac, I agree 100% . . . so you did a perfect job and I salute you! Yes, I agree the car is gorgeous in black and the only single flaw is the trunk at a 45-degree rear diagonal view. And that's nit-picking for such a terrific car.

ljflx - definately seen some, but not very many. It's still early in the game. One is in the community. Catches my eye every time, though.

Hey oac, my family is after me for some quick "family time", so I gotta go for now. Please handle my posts for a while, dude.

TagMan

lexusguy

Excellent point. Toyota's strategy with hybrids seems to be that Toyota branded hybrids will focus on fuel economy (although the Highlander hybrid works exactly the same as the RX400h) and Lexus hybrids will focus on performance. Honda doesnt seem to have any kind of strategy yet.

Selling the "performance hybrid" to the public is going to be tough, as I think most people are like your friend, and think that hybrid = Prius. I think its still too early to determine whether people will buy hybrids (perfomrance oriented or otherwise) that arent rolling statements about the driver, ala Prius and Insight.

The Accord has already proven that the performance hybrid idea doesnt work with a mainstream car. Whether it will work on a luxury car is up to the GS450h and LS600h.

merc1

What is so different about the S8 relative to an AMG or M product? It is the same type of low-volume not every year type product they are.

M

tagman

Whether it will work on a luxury car is up to the GS450h and LS600h.

I have this gut feeling that the GS hybrid will not do all that well, while the LS hybrid will kick butt . . . sell EVERY one they can make and still have a waiting list. The GS may end up as a little sibling "wanna-be" car. It's only saving grace might be that the LS will "carry" it somehow, or that the LS is so hard to get, a few folks will take a GS instead.

Again, due to the hybrid misperception issue, it is entirely possible to me that people could actually migrate to the Toyota Camry hybrid instead of the GS! Normally that would be insane, but with the misunderstanding about performance and economy where hybrids are concerned, it is quite realistic to me. And take a good hard look at that Camry hybrid and tell me if it isn't dripping with value for that segment.

I think we will see the Toyota Prius, Honda Civic Hybrid, and upcoming Honda Fit Hybrid as the low tier leaders. I think we will see the Toyota Camry Hybrid as quite possibly the only middle ground leader, and I think we will not pass go, and we will go directly to the only leader at the top tier, the LS600hL. I just don't see the GS hybrid as a big seller, but I'm OK with finding out I am wrong on this. We'll have to see, but that's how I see it for now.

TagMan

stevekilburn

Your comment on 6.3L 600 hp is in error. The 6.3L V8 is a 503 hp engine. The 6.5L V12 has 600+ hp.

Also most power lovers are not rational when it comes to 75 mph speed limit logic and coming home at about the same time.

More power is for their brains. it gives them a psychological high. Like being on meth, or ecstasy.

And you are right, pragmatic buyers do not buy these vehicles.

stevekilburn

Thats a wrong statement. most european heads of state use diesel powered HELMs. I just saw footage of Italian elections and berlusconi's entourage was using diesel powered Audi A8 and Mercedes S-class.

Also Hong Kong may be an exception, and I havent been there, but 35% of HELMS in asia are diesel.

stevekilburn

yes, most people I have met are quite allergic to hybrids in general, but feminine guys and women like prius a lot.

most people are un-aware of GS 450h and RX400h being powerful and automatically assume that they are slow and boring.

My aunt took my uncle to a Toyota dealership and he became very uncomfortable at the site of prius and refused to check it out. He liked the Land Cruiser and Tundra very much. But I cannot blame him, he is former football player and is almost 6'4".

I personally think that once Lithium-ion batteries are introduced, the attitudes will change.

stevekilburn

AMG sold 20,000 vehicles last year, and half of them came to US.

S8 does not compare to AMG at all. Audi performance is always way behind mercedes and BMW. And when it is superior, they charge ridiculously high prices.

Audi's most powerful engine is 450 hp V12. BMW has 500 hp V10, susbtantially more and AMG as we all know makes 600 hp titans.

stevekilburn

Lexus LED will be the first to have night-vision and low beam capabilities. Audi does not have that.

That should clear all doubts.

stevekilburn

Alhough time will tell, my worry is about the LS 600h itself.
Camry hybrid will be a sales leader, but I doubt people migrating to camry instead of GS450h. Not possible.

The difference between 380hp with 8-speed and 430 hp ECVT?

is it enough to lure top 10-15 % lexus LS 460 customers to LS 600hL. May be for first one or two years, but I am not sure after that.

lexusguy

I still think Toyota's decision to make the GS450h rear drive was a big mistake. Just like the RX350\400h, the GS450h and GS460 are much too similar. If the GS450h had AWD, A6 4.2 or other V8 powered AWD car shoppers who would otherwise bypass Lexus might consider it.

merc1

Considering the nature of the Mercedes/AMG relationship and the ground-up engine development, do you think Mercedes would ever get to use an AMG-developed engine without the AMG badge and bring it in under the Mercedes standard engine selection umbrella?

I seriously doubt it, that would ruin the exclusivity they're shooting for now. This new V8, if successful which I have no doubt it will be, is the start of a new business model for AMG. Putting engines in AMG vehicles that one can't get or even get a variant of in a "regular" Mercedes does wonders for AMG's image and exclusivity in the eyes of people who care about such things. I can't wait to see what the replacement for today's AMG V12 will be. AMG is about to start building track-ready variants of certain cars called "Track Series". The SLK55 AMG is the first car to get the treatment, expect an official announcement soon. The May issue of CAR has a nice writeup on this version of the SLK55. The SLR is also (rumors and pics all over the net now) up for a sportier makeover and a roadster version. MB's product onslaught is relentless and their sales both here and worldwide are finally starting to reflect this. Expect April to be a big month in the U.S.

M