Totally correct analysis. BMWs are all about hype and perception. They are a disappointment in terms of substance when compared to Audi and Mercedes-Benz. The 7-Series, like mentioned earlier, gets knocked about in the majority of world-wide comparisions when it goes up against the A8L, S-Class, the LS, and even the XJ. The 7-Series is due for a remake around '09 when the new A8 arrives so that will be interesting. Wonder if there any moles snooping around Inglostadt and Munich? The new S-Class wins because of all its gizmos, not necessarily a good thing. MB has to be careful as the S-Class is starting to gain an image of "overdone" and "overwraught." It's pretentious image will turn into one of crassness as the S-Class is beginning to look borish and arrogant (generally a BMW trait). The previous S-Class was more subtle and that made it elegant. Now it seems that MB has gone the way of Munich and has over-engineered and overstyled the car (just look at those fenders). It lacks a certain elegance in person. But the bigger the phalic symbol, the more attention I guess. Not real measure of achievement if that is what you are trying to show the world.
With the huge expansion in the number of families with total assets (real estate plus liquid) exceeding 5,000,000 and approaching 10,000,000 I'm surprised that there isn't more discussion here of the Bentley Contintental GT and the Flying Spur. Heck there isn't even a Bentley board. I see a decent number of these cars in the Northeast and probably a lot of people who are looking at a new S Class could swing a Bentley. Based on a superficial look at the ads in the WSJ used Continental GTs are still fairly close to MSRP so someone is buying them.
One of my neighbors with an older Bentley quotes Jeremy Clarkson as saying that a "Flying Spur is simply a VW Phaeton in a custom suit". While that might be the case, it is a bespoke suit, the twin turbos cranking out 550 or so of HP do the suit justice, and the AWD will get you home from the office no matter how late you work on a February night.
I was at the local MB dealer just this past Friday and you are right that the CLS looks better in person, but it's still not my cup of tea even though it has quite striking lines. Frankly, I just like the S-Class better.
I was actually in to look at the SL and the GL. I am still impressed by the HP improvement in the newer 550 engine over the 500 it replaces. My local dealer was trying hard to make quite a deal on the '06 SL500, and it's no wonder with the '07 SL550 offering so many more ponies.
As previously posted, I would like to see BMW discontinue the 7. I like the 7-series but I am partial to BMW. Most buyers here want to bathe in luxo-barges with rich Titanic-like interiors. This has never been what BMW is about. Many posters here care more for air-freshioned vibrating seats than the Ultimate Driving Experience. BMW is out of its element here. Since it loses all the HELM comparos, I believe the 7 has become a useless vehicle in the BMW stable-call it the BMW's Lexus GS.
BMW should stick to where they dominate: the 3, 5 and incomparable M's.
I am looking forward to driving the LS 460 this Fall to see if I notice an improvement in the vehicle's handling. I wish they would get rid of that cursed gated shifter too.
hpowders - you and I often agree on many topics that have come up on this forum. And while I understand your point about BMW being "out of its element" with regards to the 7, your suggestion that BMW drop the 7 is not a good idea, IMO.
As a premier German manufacturer, it makes very good sense to offer an upper tier sedan like the 7. From a pure business standpoint it is important, but from the perspective of pure performance vs. luxury pampering, I think that the 7 accomplishes more than you are giving it credit for. Certainly if Mercedes did not introduce the new S, folks would be saying that MB is asleep at the switch, and if Lexus were not introducing the new LS460, folks would also be saying that Lexus is not keeping up with the competition. But . . . there is in fact a new S and a new LS is forthcoming . . . both remarkably improved vehicles.
So as time goes, the 7 will ultimately find the sweet spot in its quest for the best combination of performance and luxury. For some, it already provides that, but you know very well what BMW is truly capable of and you expect more from them.
Perhaps you remember a number of months ago, I asked the question on the forum which cars deliver the best combination of performance and luxury in a single vehicle. It was an interesting discussion, because they (performance and luxury) are often opposing forces. If my memory serves me, lexusguy suggested the Quattroporte as the best combination.
Frankly, I think BMW is in a better position than most to ultimately combine performance and luxury in a single vehicle . . . and the 7 series may one day prove to be such a vehicle. I vote to keep it and let it continue to evolve over a long, healthy, and hopefully improving, life.
Not too surprisingly, I know a number of guys who love their 7's (but what do they know? )
I am looking forward to driving the LS 460 this Fall to see if I notice an improvement in the vehicle's handling. I wish they would get rid of that cursed gated shifter too.
Dont hold your breath on that one. The LS has had a gated shifter from '95 on, and since the '04 RX330, all Lexus automatics have them.
Apparently they like the car quite a bit. It was interesting to see how flat the car remained even when Clarkson was pushing it sideways, especially for a non AMG car. Quite different than the Fifth Gear XJR.
The reality about BMWs is that while they are good driving cars, they are poor substitutes for real performance sport cars. They thrive on the marketing mantra of the Ultimate Driving Machine... far from it... Bimmers drive real well, no doubt, but ultimate driving machine ? Puleaze... The only ultimate driving machines in the BMW arsenal are the Ms. These are for real driving machines per excellence. Otherwise, the mainstream BMWs (non-SP) excel in rugged good looks (debatable sometimes), good performance inline engines, well balanced, sport-ish handling and excellent braking, all wrapped up in Bavarian-inspired marketing zeal. Buyers lap it up in droves, many of whom are poseurs who'd never take these cars to their extremes, in order to really test their ultimate in driving capabilities.
I do not buy into hype... altho' I hope to one day own a Bimmer, probably a convertible, but not bcos of the hype, but bcos I like it for what it is... a good driving car.
I'd like to launch the inaugural HELM Awards for many of the regulars on this forum. Yes, I know its not about us, but without us, this forum would not exist. So its all about us, our enthusiasm, our interests, our time, our presence and contributions to this forum on Edmunds that has made it one of the very best here.
Without further ado, I'd like to hand out a few awards. Please feel free to critique, comment, re-award, re-arrange, etc... these awards. Mine are based on my personal observations after more than 3 years on this forum. For those not *winning* any awards, do not be offended - simply try harder next time
1) Longest HELM poster award: Merc1 2) Anything MB award: Merc1 3) Business-savvy poster: Ljflx 4) Anything Audi-esque award: Blkhemi (the man with the most cars around here) 5) Porsche/VW poster award: Designman (my personal fav poster, along with Len, btw) 6) Anything Lexus award: DrFill (tough choice, tho') 7) Most diverse HELM knowledge award: Lexusguy (hands down) 8) Most legalese award: GaryH (ok, I may need his legal argument someday, who knows ) 9) Least spoken, but most impactful award: Sam 10) Most impactful recent poster award: Tagman (Steve was too far off the wagon to even come close)
Well, there you have it folks.... Hopefully, this will catch on somewhat and we can revisit these awards on an annual basis.
What fetish? I look forward to driving the new LS this Fall. I hope its handling is better than the last one I drove this previous summer. If I find it to my liking, which admittedly would be a real long shot, I would order the basic car. All those fancy schmancy frills are unnecessary, IMO. When you guys criticize BMW, I don't deliver cheap, condescending psycho-analysis. I uh... beat my wife instead! The fact that you feel YOU must, says a lot more about YOU than it does me.
I think the “Ultimate Driving Machine” slogan has an addendum specifying it is within its perspective category.
So a 3 series would be the “Ultimate” when viewed against its direct competition (C, IS, TL, A4 etc), the 7 series would be the “Ultimate” when viewed against its direct competition (A8, LS, S etc).
So a 7 series being the “Ultimate” does not suggest supreme sports car of the universe capable of lapping Schumacher on the track.
Also, the driving style (user ability) is immaterial to the vehicle’s abilities; just as many Ferrari’s creep along (when they are taken out).
Glad to respond to your eloquent post. You always write in a rational, calm manner, leaving the pseudo-psycho babble to others.
My point is that in the HELM REALM, the emphasis ( using the typical HELM poster here as an extrapolating example of the buying public) on luxury is much more important than performance. BMW will never compete favorably given this mind-set. Luxury isn't their thing. Never was, and I hope, never will be. So why bother? Pull out and spend some of that creative energy on coming up with a really fine alternative to a Porsche Boxster or a 911.
Looks like the MB S-Class just may be the one vehicle that manages to get right the delicate performance/luxury balance. A HELM we can all love around here! Looking forward to the US mags. testing of this vehicle.
You are wasting your time. This individual spent a lot of words bashing BMW and then indicated he would probably buy one!
I have a 545. I cannot possibly use at least 50% of the car's capabilities or I would be arrested for trying. This is a real shame. This doesn't mean I can't enjoy the smoothness of its V8, its awesome 50-50 balance and my ability to smoke just about anyone when I enter the interstate.
Most of the posters here realize that "Ultimate Driving Machine" implies within price constraints- as you correctly imply- the 3-series is "Ultimate" in the $30-$40k range. Nobody is saying a Porsche 911 cannot leave a 330i in the dust. To say so would be sheer madness.
Well where I come from, the way one buys a car is by doing the research and then the legwork which involves kicking the tires of all potential candidates. I don't waste my time test-driving vehicles I wouldn't consider buying/leasing. I would consider the new LS if its handling has improved, but only in its most basic, no frills form. I don't know how you guys put up with that gated shifter. So inconvenient.
Allow me to congratulate you on making the coveted top 10 HELM list. Tickets are already on Ebay anticipating your top 10 Tour. Tough to make the list. What are there- 11 regular posters?
I'm not gonna touch that one. I've been getting along just fine with oac, my fellow Californian. We share a West coast bond that is stronger than . . . well . . . unknown at this point.
Besides, I made the list, and now, thanks to oac, I've given myself a raise AND a summer bonus. So, THERE!
Only problem is . . . I can't make it next year . . . I likely won't be that "recent" a poster any more, and I'm sure not gonna topple those other guys. They're just too terrific and will deserve the award FOREVER. Oh well, I'll covet it while it lasts . . . and spend my bonus, of course.
I noticed that while Mercedes, Audi, Porsche/VW, and Lexus made the awards list, BMW was missing.
Reason is that Howard doesn't think the 7 belongs in HELM so I had to leave it out, out of deference to the ultimate BMW fans... Can't have it both ways, I suppose
Reason is that Howard doesn't think the 7 belongs in HELM so I had to leave it out, out of deference to the ultimate BMW fans... Can't have it both ways, I suppose
I am so sorry. I know what I wrote, but I have reconsidered: You may keep the 7 even though we both know nobody is buying it. I hope you didn't already begin re-tooling based on my last few posts. I apologize, but you see there's this important list.....
That depends on what "Anything Lexus" means. I've driven them all, with the exception of the LX450, and I know pretty much all there is to know about their products, past and present. As most of you are aware I'm sure, I'm definitely not one who will rush to defend their honor though, except in cases where I think Lexus really does have a very strong product, such as the LS, which is and always has been their best car.
The 7 has to exist because without it, BMW would not be a HELM. Despite being an "independent company" that can say "no", BMW still has to do products it might not necessarily want to, that aren't really "BMW core products" in order to stay competitive and profitable. They can make the the BMW of SUVs, the BMW of full size luxury sedans, or even the BMW of humongous people movers if that R-class competitor goes into production. That doesn't really change the fact that they are SUVs, full size luxury sedans, or humongous people movers, which aren't BMW strong suits.
Today, to many a Lexican dismay, Toyota elected to recall 1,000,000 cars,trucks,vans, and SUV's. Yes this includes Marvin the Martian's Prius and America's fav LS.
I have this to say: In a recent interview with Toyota's North American front guy Jim Press, he mentioned that Toyota will not go the way of GM or Mercedes with their huge quality probs and recalls. Uh, Jim, Mercedes was all but executed when they elected to recall close to a million cars. GM is still sitting in the electricution chair with the voltage turned halfway up and you're trying to have world domination by virtue that you're Toyota and everyone will forgive and forget if they're $65k LS blows-up? And this coming from the supposed quality leader of the world.
This should be a wake-up call to everyone who thinks one brand is superior to another. In reality, we could go back and forth on Lexus v. Mercedes v. BMW v. Audi v. Jag and everyone in between until the cows come home, but at the end of the day, they all have their time coming when the eventual quality prob will happen.
OAC: Thanks for the award! I wish I had an acceptance speech, but on behalf of myself and Audi, thanks.
Today, to many a Lexican dismay, Toyota elected to recall 1,000,000 cars,trucks,vans, and SUV's. Yes this includes Marvin the Martian's Prius and America's fav LS.
The LS is not included in the recall. Please get your facts straight before posting.
I actually saw on the CNN that it was included. So my facts are correct, and on top of that, if the LS isn't included, it's still 1 million cars. And they're trying to overtake the General as #1? Yeah, whatever.
Toyota will have more recalls, but recalls aren't the problem themselves. No company is going to go without recalls. They will happen, to every company. It how when you initiate them, why you initiate them, and what damage this causes to customers, directly. Or does the government have to chase you down to do right by your customers?
If you have 9 recalls in a year (2000 Ford Focus), this is gross negligence! If several customers are injured before recalls are brought into effect, this builds a negative aura.
If you are pro-active, and can use the recall to demonstrate improved customer service to your customer base, a recall may actually do just as much good for your company.
Recalls aren't the problem, unless they are indemic to a model and it's image.
Is the company proactive? Or reactive? Responsible? Early detection of the problem? Causing injuries? Using it as an opportunity to improve customer relations?
Will the engine explode? Or the tires fall off?
It's too simplistic to say this company had a recall, and leave it at that. It makes a headline, but not an article.
The news isn't just the recall, but how it's dealt with, and the damage the problem causes. And is this a recurring theme for the vehicle/company.
The last part is where some companies seperate themselves.
That depends on what "Anything Lexus" means. I've driven them all, with the exception of the LX450, and I know pretty much all there is to know about their products, past and present.
And you won't find me disagreeing with you, LG, that's one of the many reasons why you won the most coveted of all the HELMY Awards, the one that stands you heads above the crowd - most knowledgable HELM poster. I believe it is a deserved honor slightly more so than winning on a single brand recognition. Don't you agree ?
Blkhemi, DrFill, and TagMan have all accepted these honors with the grace of true gentlemen, and I thank them for allowing me to honor their contributions to this forum. Next year, I'd look forward to seeing them win in more than one category... No pressure guys
8) Most legalese award: GaryH (ok, I may need his legal argument someday, who knows )
Thanks oac, I think. :confuse:
However, I must point out the definition of legalese: "The specialized vocabulary of the legal profession, especially when considered to be complex or abstruse."
Are my posts really full of legalese? Or just based on sound logic and reasoning that is associated with the study of the law? I prefer to think the latter.
And if this post doesn't prove my point, I don't know what will. Res ipso loquitur.*
A million cars for Mercedes is close to 85% its annual production volume of 1.2 million. OTOH, a million cars for Toyota wordwide is only 11% of its worldwide sales of over 9 million.
In other words, if each of these two carmaker recalls 1 million cars, your Mercedes is nearly 8 times as likely to be affected than your Tooyota is . . . not to mention that the models in the Toyota recall are mostly econoboxes whereas the recalled Mercedes included its top of the range luxury models.
Toyota has recalls just like everyone else. About the same time last year, they recalled 750,000 Tacomas, 4Runners, and Tundras for a somewhat similar problem. I dont really remember anyone going nuts over that. Toyota's marketshare has increased against the General since '05, has it not?
This recall affects 170,000 Priuses in the US. Nobody's LS has "blown up". In fact, no Lexus products are involved. 80% of the cars involved are JDM and Europe market small cars. You're making a mountain out of a mole hill.
And you won't find me disagreeing with you, LG, that's one of the many reasons why you won the most coveted of all the HELMY Awards, the one that stands you heads above the crowd - most knowledgable HELM poster. I believe it is a deserved honor slightly more so than winning on a single brand recognition. Don't you agree ?
I was just curious as to whether you meant "resident brand defender/champion" when it comes to the "anything Mercedes", or "anything Lexus" awards. Thats definitely more Fill than me.
I do agree with your choices. I think I would definitely put myself in the "all-rounder" camp, rather than "lexus guy" camp (isn't that wierd?) given the choice.
I would be perfectly comfortable with BMW pulling out of the HELM sedan category where it is clearly over-matched
Since it loses all the HELM comparos, I believe the 7 has become a useless vehicle in the BMW stable-call it the BMW's Lexus GS.
Hilarious, dump the car, useless. Wasn’t it you who not too long ago trumpeted it as the best-selling 7 in BMW history?
This car loses points on iDrive and styling in previous comparos. And I guess you didn’t pay attention to that video comparo. It said the three cars were CLOSELY MATCHED. You are making it sound as if it was a blowout. And this car is in its sixth year to boot. Go over the past comparos and it is clear that the 7 has the sportiest ride without including the Quattroporte. It is a testament to Audi and MB that they are in the same league as the BMW ride. How this can be interpreted as an inferior 7 is beyond me.
And for the record, the LS460 is going to be nowhere near the 7 with regard to a firm ride and handling, bank on it. They don’t match the characteristics of the 3 and 5 with their other products and all of a sudden their halo LUXURY car is going to come knockin’ on the door here? Forget it.
I can’t believe you would be influenced by the most recent rinky dink comparo and prevailing prejudice against BMWs, among which are the uninformed rants of a poster who praises Bose systems and who knows nothing about BMW product benefits nor Lexus price strategy.
BTW, when a someone says they don’t like a ride that rattles their teeth and prefers a soft ride, this is understandable and respectable. But when someone comes along and says BMW’s have no substance, you laugh and write them off. They are basically color blind and are trying to convince you that the color red sucks.
Oac, there are some interesting and impressive posters around here including yourself. To come away as your favorite along with Ljflx is very flattering. Many thanks my friend.
And the Ryan Seacrest award goes to OAC but with a lot less than his $8mln annual income. Merc1 takes second place as Simon Cowell - minus his $400mln.
BMW doesn't need to have a HELM vehicle. It goes against what they do best. They should concentrate on vehicles exhibiting performance first through fourth, luxury fifth.
Just because I like it and promoted it has nothing to do with reality- the fact that the representative HELM consumer would pass this vehicle up in favor of the LS or MB S-class.
I would rather see BMW step it up a notch and design serious competitors to the Boxster and 911.
Congrats for accepting your awards with grace and humility as demonstrated by your silence instead of posting another typical saccharine reply similar to those of other winners I have had to endure reading.
Comments
One of my neighbors with an older Bentley quotes Jeremy Clarkson as saying that a "Flying Spur is simply a VW Phaeton in a custom suit". While that might be the case, it is a bespoke suit, the twin turbos cranking out 550 or so of HP do the suit justice, and the AWD will get you home from the office no matter how late you work on a February night.
I was actually in to look at the SL and the GL. I am still impressed by the HP improvement in the newer 550 engine over the 500 it replaces. My local dealer was trying hard to make quite a deal on the '06 SL500, and it's no wonder with the '07 SL550 offering so many more ponies.
TagMan
I like the 7-series but I am partial to BMW.
Most buyers here want to bathe in luxo-barges with rich Titanic-like interiors. This has never been what BMW is about.
Many posters here care more for air-freshioned vibrating seats than the Ultimate Driving Experience.
BMW is out of its element here.
Since it loses all the HELM comparos, I believe the 7 has become a useless vehicle in the BMW stable-call it the BMW's Lexus GS.
BMW should stick to where they dominate: the 3, 5 and incomparable M's.
I am looking forward to driving the LS 460 this Fall to see if I notice an improvement in the vehicle's handling.
I wish they would get rid of that cursed gated shifter too.
If the 7 is "useless" because of it's mediocre standings in competitive comparisons, what would that make the E-Class, or A6, or 5-series?
They were all beaten by the Lexus GS in C&D's last comparison of this class.
The Lexus GS record is comparisons is rather impressive, and it will only get better when the new engines get here in less than 6 months.
So let's concentrate on bashing one model at a time, since you seem to get mixed-up when you try to go "Two-for-Tuesday".
DrFill
As a premier German manufacturer, it makes very good sense to offer an upper tier sedan like the 7. From a pure business standpoint it is important, but from the perspective of pure performance vs. luxury pampering, I think that the 7 accomplishes more than you are giving it credit for. Certainly if Mercedes did not introduce the new S, folks would be saying that MB is asleep at the switch, and if Lexus were not introducing the new LS460, folks would also be saying that Lexus is not keeping up with the competition. But . . . there is in fact a new S and a new LS is forthcoming . . . both remarkably improved vehicles.
So as time goes, the 7 will ultimately find the sweet spot in its quest for the best combination of performance and luxury. For some, it already provides that, but you know very well what BMW is truly capable of and you expect more from them.
Perhaps you remember a number of months ago, I asked the question on the forum which cars deliver the best combination of performance and luxury in a single vehicle. It was an interesting discussion, because they (performance and luxury) are often opposing forces. If my memory serves me, lexusguy suggested the Quattroporte as the best combination.
Frankly, I think BMW is in a better position than most to ultimately combine performance and luxury in a single vehicle . . . and the 7 series may one day prove to be such a vehicle. I vote to keep it and let it continue to evolve over a long, healthy, and hopefully improving, life.
Not too surprisingly, I know a number of guys who love their 7's (but what do they know?
Never give up on BMW! Even if you do buy a Lexus.
TagMan
I wish they would get rid of that cursed gated shifter too.
Dont hold your breath on that one. The LS has had a gated shifter from '95 on, and since the '04 RX330, all Lexus automatics have them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZWf8xk5Y5w&eurl=
I do not buy into hype... altho' I hope to one day own a Bimmer, probably a convertible, but not bcos of the hype, but bcos I like it for what it is... a good driving car.
Without further ado, I'd like to hand out a few awards. Please feel free to critique, comment, re-award, re-arrange, etc... these awards. Mine are based on my personal observations after more than 3 years on this forum. For those not *winning* any awards, do not be offended - simply try harder next time
1) Longest HELM poster award:
Merc1
2) Anything MB award:
Merc1
3) Business-savvy poster:
Ljflx
4) Anything Audi-esque award:
Blkhemi (the man with the most cars around here)
5) Porsche/VW poster award:
Designman (my personal fav poster, along with Len, btw)
6) Anything Lexus award:
DrFill (tough choice, tho')
7) Most diverse HELM knowledge award:
Lexusguy (hands down)
8) Most legalese award:
GaryH (ok, I may need his legal argument someday, who knows
9) Least spoken, but most impactful award:
Sam
10) Most impactful recent poster award:
Tagman (Steve was too far off the wagon to even come close)
Well, there you have it folks.... Hopefully, this will catch on somewhat and we can revisit these awards on an annual basis.
Oh before I forget, one last award:
11) Most tolerant Edmunds' host:
Pat_Host
If I find it to my liking, which admittedly would be a real long shot, I would order the basic car. All those fancy schmancy frills are unnecessary, IMO.
When you guys criticize BMW, I don't deliver cheap, condescending psycho-analysis.
I uh... beat my wife instead!
The fact that you feel YOU must, says a lot more about YOU than it does me.
Bash the car, and then say you want one?
Gee, sounds like the same thing this poster criticized me for a while back!
I think the “Ultimate Driving Machine” slogan has an addendum specifying it is within its perspective category.
So a 3 series would be the “Ultimate” when viewed against its direct competition (C, IS, TL, A4 etc), the 7 series would be the “Ultimate” when viewed against its direct competition (A8, LS, S etc).
So a 7 series being the “Ultimate” does not suggest supreme sports car of the universe capable of lapping Schumacher on the track.
Also, the driving style (user ability) is immaterial to the vehicle’s abilities; just as many Ferrari’s creep along (when they are taken out).
My point is that in the HELM REALM, the emphasis ( using the typical HELM poster here as an extrapolating example of the buying public) on luxury is much more important than performance. BMW will never compete favorably given this mind-set.
Luxury isn't their thing. Never was, and I hope, never will be.
So why bother? Pull out and spend some of that creative energy on coming up with a really fine alternative to a Porsche Boxster or a 911.
Looks like the MB S-Class just may be the one vehicle that manages to get right the delicate performance/luxury balance.
A HELM we can all love around here!
Looking forward to the US mags. testing of this vehicle.
This individual spent a lot of words bashing BMW and then indicated he would probably buy one!
I have a 545. I cannot possibly use at least 50% of the car's capabilities or I would be arrested for trying. This is a real shame.
This doesn't mean I can't enjoy the smoothness of its V8, its awesome 50-50 balance and my ability to smoke just about anyone when I enter the interstate.
Most of the posters here realize that "Ultimate Driving Machine" implies within price constraints- as you correctly imply- the 3-series is "Ultimate" in the $30-$40k range.
Nobody is saying a Porsche 911 cannot leave a 330i in the dust. To say so would be sheer madness.
I don't waste my time test-driving vehicles I wouldn't consider buying/leasing.
I would consider the new LS if its handling has improved, but only in its most basic, no frills form.
I don't know how you guys put up with that gated shifter. So inconvenient.
In spite of my recent HELMY award, I'll bash Lexus, just not as quickly as I'd bash a desperately flailing critic.
They're making the right moves, but misteps abound (IS350 tranny, soft SC, not producing the HPX, soft GS, general overproduction).
If you want to turn on a company under my wing, you'll release "The Beast", not me.
DrFill
Tickets are already on Ebay anticipating your top 10 Tour.
Tough to make the list. What are there- 11 regular posters?
Uh, oh . . . call NASA . . . I've discovered a black hole.
TagMan
I have a feeling that just may reveal something about the list's creator.
Nahh! Must have been an innocent oversight.
Besides, I made the list, and now, thanks to oac, I've given myself a raise AND a summer bonus. So, THERE!
Only problem is . . . I can't make it next year . . . I likely won't be that "recent" a poster any more, and I'm sure not gonna topple those other guys. They're just too terrific and will deserve the award FOREVER. Oh well, I'll covet it while it lasts . . . and spend my bonus, of course.
TagMan
Reason is that Howard doesn't think the 7 belongs in HELM so I had to leave it out, out of deference to the ultimate BMW fans... Can't have it both ways, I suppose
oac - you are too sharp for your own good!!!!
TagMan
Hmmmm ! That sounds kinda interesting... HELMY Award... except I cannot figure out what the Y in HELMY would represent...
Ahhh, I got it: High End Luxury Marque Yentas (HELMY)... apologies to our resident VW/Porsche officianado - Designman for his yentas coinage.
"no worries, dude."
sorry . . . some may think I'm serious . . . wouldn't want us to get stereotyped.
TagMan
IMPORTANT : BMW MANAGEMENT:
I am so sorry. I know what I wrote, but I have reconsidered:
You may keep the 7 even though we both know nobody is buying it.
I hope you didn't already begin re-tooling based on my last few posts.
I apologize, but you see there's this important list.....
DrFill (tough choice, tho')
That depends on what "Anything Lexus" means. I've driven them all, with the exception of the LX450, and I know pretty much all there is to know about their products, past and present. As most of you are aware I'm sure, I'm definitely not one who will rush to defend their honor though, except in cases where I think Lexus really does have a very strong product, such as the LS, which is and always has been their best car.
Maybe the "Most HDTV Posts On A HELM Board" spot if there was one, too! HEH! HEH!
I'd like to give a shout out to Jimmy Press, big Steve K., and all my boys working on the New Tundra up the road. The beers are on me!
See you next year!
DrFill
I have this to say: In a recent interview with Toyota's North American front guy Jim Press, he mentioned that Toyota will not go the way of GM or Mercedes with their huge quality probs and recalls. Uh, Jim, Mercedes was all but executed when they elected to recall close to a million cars. GM is still sitting in the electricution chair with the voltage turned halfway up and you're trying to have world domination by virtue that you're Toyota and everyone will forgive and forget if they're $65k LS blows-up? And this coming from the supposed quality leader of the world.
This should be a wake-up call to everyone who thinks one brand is superior to another. In reality, we could go back and forth on Lexus v. Mercedes v. BMW v. Audi v. Jag and everyone in between until the cows come home, but at the end of the day, they all have their time coming when the eventual quality prob will happen.
OAC: Thanks for the award! I wish I had an acceptance speech, but on behalf of myself and Audi, thanks.
The LS is not included in the recall. Please get your facts straight before posting.
All in fun. Nothing personal.
May we all have a ball driving any of these fantastic vehicles.
I may at times disagree, but I enjoy reading all of the "top 10" contributions.
How many hours per day do these Edmunds' Idols spend on these boards versus hours per day at their jobs?
I hardly have enough time to read all of these posts, much less type anything worthy.
If you have 9 recalls in a year (2000 Ford Focus), this is gross negligence! If several customers are injured before recalls are brought into effect, this builds a negative aura.
If you are pro-active, and can use the recall to demonstrate improved customer service to your customer base, a recall may actually do just as much good for your company.
Recalls aren't the problem, unless they are indemic to a model and it's image.
Is the company proactive? Or reactive? Responsible? Early detection of the problem? Causing injuries? Using it as an opportunity to improve customer relations?
Will the engine explode? Or the tires fall off?
It's too simplistic to say this company had a recall, and leave it at that. It makes a headline, but not an article.
The news isn't just the recall, but how it's dealt with, and the damage the problem causes. And is this a recurring theme for the vehicle/company.
The last part is where some companies seperate themselves.
DrFill
And you won't find me disagreeing with you, LG, that's one of the many reasons why you won the most coveted of all the HELMY Awards, the one that stands you heads above the crowd - most knowledgable HELM poster. I believe it is a deserved honor slightly more so than winning on a single brand recognition. Don't you agree ?
Blkhemi, DrFill, and TagMan have all accepted these honors with the grace of true gentlemen, and I thank them for allowing me to honor their contributions to this forum. Next year, I'd look forward to seeing them win in more than one category... No pressure guys
http://money.cnn.com/2006/05/30/Autos/toyota_recall.reut/index.htm
GaryH (ok, I may need his legal argument someday, who knows )
Thanks oac, I think.
However, I must point out the definition of legalese: "The specialized vocabulary of the legal profession, especially when considered to be complex or abstruse."
Are my posts really full of legalese? Or just based on sound logic and reasoning that is associated with the study of the law? I prefer to think the latter.
And if this post doesn't prove my point, I don't know what will. Res ipso loquitur.*
*Legalese for "The thing speaks for itself".
In other words, if each of these two carmaker recalls 1 million cars, your Mercedes is nearly 8 times as likely to be affected than your Tooyota is . . . not to mention that the models in the Toyota recall are mostly econoboxes whereas the recalled Mercedes included its top of the range luxury models.
This recall affects 170,000 Priuses in the US. Nobody's LS has "blown up". In fact, no Lexus products are involved. 80% of the cars involved are JDM and Europe market small cars. You're making a mountain out of a mole hill.
I was just curious as to whether you meant "resident brand defender/champion" when it comes to the "anything Mercedes", or "anything Lexus" awards. Thats definitely more Fill than me.
I do agree with your choices. I think I would definitely put myself in the "all-rounder" camp, rather than "lexus guy" camp (isn't that wierd?) given the choice.
Since it loses all the HELM comparos, I believe the 7 has become a useless vehicle in the BMW stable-call it the BMW's Lexus GS.
Hilarious, dump the car, useless. Wasn’t it you who not too long ago trumpeted it as the best-selling 7 in BMW history?
This car loses points on iDrive and styling in previous comparos. And I guess you didn’t pay attention to that video comparo. It said the three cars were CLOSELY MATCHED. You are making it sound as if it was a blowout. And this car is in its sixth year to boot. Go over the past comparos and it is clear that the 7 has the sportiest ride without including the Quattroporte. It is a testament to Audi and MB that they are in the same league as the BMW ride. How this can be interpreted as an inferior 7 is beyond me.
And for the record, the LS460 is going to be nowhere near the 7 with regard to a firm ride and handling, bank on it. They don’t match the characteristics of the 3 and 5 with their other products and all of a sudden their halo LUXURY car is going to come knockin’ on the door here? Forget it.
I can’t believe you would be influenced by the most recent rinky dink comparo and prevailing prejudice against BMWs, among which are the uninformed rants of a poster who praises Bose systems and who knows nothing about BMW product benefits nor Lexus price strategy.
BTW, when a someone says they don’t like a ride that rattles their teeth and prefers a soft ride, this is understandable and respectable. But when someone comes along and says BMW’s have no substance, you laugh and write them off. They are basically color blind and are trying to convince you that the color red sucks.
They should concentrate on vehicles exhibiting performance first through fourth, luxury fifth.
Just because I like it and promoted it has nothing to do with reality- the fact that the representative HELM consumer would pass this vehicle up in favor of the LS or MB S-class.
I would rather see BMW step it up a notch and design serious competitors to the Boxster and 911.
Translation: He must be away!!