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High End Luxury Cars



  • kgakga Posts: 23
    What is your point?

    In area where I live, Lexus cars are used by driving schools for beginners and by taxicab companies.
    Does it bother you?
  • jtbenzjtbenz Posts: 29
    Hmm interesting comparison considering the LS and the S are not in the same price range. Lets compare the LS with a Benz with a similar price the C55 AMG. At a cost of about $55K the C-55 will do 0-60 in 4.9 secs. The C55 is a little smaller but will smoke anything made by Toyota including your precious LS. And the C55 isn't Mercedes fastest car by a long shot.
    It really is shocking, Toyota doesn't make anything that can compete with the C55 in performance at any size or price range in the U.S. (I don't know what they sell in Japan.)
    Toyota does not seem to be positioning itself as a performance car maker, it rather seems to be aiming at making reliable, practical, people movers.
    And if you want to compare the best large luxury sedans from the two lines Mercedes wins easily. Lexus has nothing that comes close to the V-12 twin turbo of the S-65.
    Also the LS is a brand new model, the new S is coming out early next year and from what I hear it is going to be a technological marvel, so we will have to wait and see which new model is better.
    And if you have forgotton or haven't read my earlier posts I am not a big fan of large cars, so I really have little interest in the S or the LS..
  • ctsangctsang Posts: 237
    You keep saying the average customer doesn't care about this or that when they buy a vehicle. I am an average customer, so are many who got burned like yourself. I am not willing to get burned again, why should you?
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    Lets see... you ask for dots and I provide them and you moan again ?

    So you have no issues with MB losing BILLIONS over a 3-year period. That is not an issue of market performance impacting buyers, eh ? With a money-losing venture would MB be able to afford some niceties for its high-end buyers ?

    You state that poor reliability has no great effect on sales, yet MB is not growing as much as its competition, in a growing market. And you don't see the link ?

    You say that resale value of CLK is high, right ? Well, how many CLKs do MB sell a year compared to how many C, E or S ? Get the point ???

    MB's production issues... let's move on...

    Unit sales... Lexus' have been buoyed by SUVs no doubt. But where was MB when the market was screaming for SUV ? Failed leadership, don't you think ? MB is in the business of making money, yet they failed to properly read the market pulse wrt SUVs. Their half-hearted attempt for the ML showed in poor reliability. Now that gas prices are through the roof, Lexus is moving to hybrid, correctly anticipating the market, once again. Try buying a Prius at your local dealership and see the waiting list.

    And finally, on the sales gains by Lexus over MB over the past 6 years. You want me to provide the numbers again ? Did you not read the numbers provided by syswei already ? Or you no longer believe in numbers ????

    I have no problem with MB. I wish them well... These long debate is about why MB is no longer the defacto *must have* brand. I say it once again: the market has spoken, and the trends are undeniable. I do not expect MB to go out of business, but if they continue this destructive path, then they would be in danger. Who knows, maybe Chrysler may end up owning MB in the near future !!! Stranger things have happened, you know....
  • ctsangctsang Posts: 237
    Becasue those cars are reliable. Does it bother you they are more reliable?
  • ctsangctsang Posts: 237
    I didn't get your point the first time. The point is the people in Hong Kong who ride in MBs is becasue of luxury, not because of sportiness. My folks ride in MBs, but I drive a BMW.
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    jt: u compare a C55 to an LS430 because of price ? Would you compare a $55K E320 with a $55K Boxter S ? Are these comparable cars to you just bcos they are similarly priced ? BTW, how many of that precious C55 are produced ? How many S600 are produced ? These are limited production cars that u are using against mainstream high volume cars. The LS compares head-to-head with an S-class. That the former is cheaper has nothing to do with it being an inferior product; to the contrary, that the S- is more expensive has more to do with the inefficient cost structure of MB. So price has nothing to do with it....
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,690
    "Generally I agree with ljflx's take on the business side, again its the notion that buyers care about such things (past reliablity surveys) is where I will never be convinced."

    OK. I can understand the latter part of your post and it's a subjective issue. So let's let it go at that. My point was/is all the negativity takes its toll and that's my subjective and gut feeling. It's like unneeded bad advertising. On the opposite end of the spectrum I never believed Audi had a real acceleration problem in the 80's yet all those news reports took their toll heavily. I actually agree with you on the CEO issue. I don't even know Toyota's CEO or even a top officer. But seeing a CEO fired and one as abruptly as Schrempp was, with a salary cutoff is a big confirmation of the quality issues. It's also a confirmation - in other ways - that MB is trying to truly fix them now as opposed to the sterile BS statement the execs made over the past 2 years.
  • ctsangctsang Posts: 237
    People in the market for LS class are not comparing it to C class. I will let it go since you ARE young.
  • jtbenzjtbenz Posts: 29
    Do you just make stuff up because it sounds good? I have never heard that rear driven cars have a significant disadvantage in cabin noise when compared to front drive cars. The drivetrain takes some interior cabin space away but noise is not a common weakness. To illustrate my point, just try to find any car over $50K with front drive.
    Front wheel drive cars do have their advantages, they are simple and cheaper to manufacture and are generally better in the snow. They are practical but are less refined and have lower performance.
    And your argument about the cost of a new focus against an old 190 is absurd. A new focus also costs more than a 2000 Lexus ES300. And Toyota's competitor to the Benz at the time, the Cressida, is worth less than half of a 190 of the same year.
    And uniformed one, let me try to explain this again, rear drive cars can place its front wheels farther to the front of the car than front drive cars. Front drive cars have to have the front axle positioned under the engine so in any front drive car you will see a lot of car in front of the front axle giving the car less grip and making the car nose heavy.
    In most, not all, but in most read drive cars, especially performance models, the front wheels are usually as far in front of the car as possible. Usually only the bumper is in front of the tires.
    One other point that I failed to mention earlier, by having the front wheels drive and turn the engine, if forces the tires to do two things and greatly reduces the grip when accelerating out of turns.
    And you are mistaken about the condition of my 190 if you think a base ford focus can beat my 190 on an autocross course.
    In all my times at the track I have never seen anyone with the guts to bring a front drive car on the autocross.
    You really need to think and check your facts before posting.
  • ctsangctsang Posts: 237
    Are you in the correct forum? This is about luxury cars, not sport cars. I suggest you get a Porche, forget about MB. BTW. Porche is going to make a four door vehicle. Will it be a sport car or luxury car?
  • jtbenzjtbenz Posts: 29
    You really need to check your facts, the 190 was discontinued in 1993 so how could they drop prices in the late 1990's. And above average compared to who, Lexus is behind, BMW and Benz, Audi, Infinity, Jag and the Caddy's. They all make models in the same price range as the LS but have better performance. Above average when compared to the Camary, But in the luxury car market they have only Lincoln for company.
  • jtbenzjtbenz Posts: 29
    Actually I have thought of getting a Porche but not as my primary driver, they are too harsh for long highway trips or for commuting. I don't know about the new model, I have never ridden in one.
    And adding another car just for kicks is a bit too expensive for me to justify at the moment. Especially a new one. Those beasts are expensive to service too.
    But if I did get one it would not have a back seat, I would get it to be a fun impractical car to drive on twisty mountain roads or the track, not as a commuter.
    But for now I will stick with cars that can do both pretty well.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,690
    Mercedes as a whole dropped prices in the late 90's. In your dreams I guess you can imagine Lexus and Lincoln are in the same category. The only thing they have in common in the real world is that they start with the letter L.
  • jtbenzjtbenz Posts: 29
    The boxter S is a two seater, and the C55 and the LS are close in cabin size and use and purpose. If you want to defend Lexus' performance credentials, find me one that can compete with the C55, any Lexus model, well? The car is a $55K mid-sized sedan, for heaven's sake not one of the v-12's or the SLR, but Toyota has nothing, NOTHING, that can match the C55 in peformance. Pretty sad isn't it. It didn't dawn on me until today. You would think a car company as large as Toyota would have something, any car that could go as fast as a C55.
    Even the other Japanese companies have sports cars that can match or exceed the performance of Mercedes sedan, but not Toyota. Hmmm
  • jtbenzjtbenz Posts: 29
    In performance they are, show me another luxury car line sold in the U.S. that is slower than Lexus.
  • jtbenzjtbenz Posts: 29
    I am comparing model lines, so where is Lexus' performance model? For a car line that is the best in everything and a deep performance bloodline like Lexus, surely they have one? If Lexus is such a performance luxury car maker which one should I pick, hmmm Mercedes and BMW Audi, Caddy, all seem to have several, Lexus? show me that model that blends thrilling driving excitement with luxury and comfort that carries the Lexus nameplate, the SC? (chuckle)
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    the C55 and the LS are close in cabin size and use and purpose

    Get real, buddy. They have very little in common. The US government classifies cars as follows:

    LS - class: large, volume 123 cu ft (passenger+cargo)

    C55 - class: compact, volume 101 cf
    E - class: mid, volume 111 cf
    S - class: large, volume 121 cf

    Which is the LS close to, again?
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    where is Lexus' performance model

    They don't have one, not in the sense of a AMG or M type. How many MB owners have AMGs anyway? 1%? 2%? Your question matters to them. Not to anyone else. Why continue to slam Lexus for not having an AMG-type offering? You don't even drive an AMG yourself.

    show me that model that blends thrilling driving excitement with luxury and comfort that carries the Lexus nameplate

    Two more months and you can buy an IS350. But some germancarfans (not merc1) are so closed-minded that they just "know" that Lexus is boring and tomblike, and such people won't even pay attention to the reviews as they come out, much less test drive the car.

    BTW, what do you think of the Infiniti G and M?
  • jtbenzjtbenz Posts: 29
    Check what I wrote, I wrote cabin size, that excludes the trunk, The Lexus is bigger in interior cabin size but they are reasonably close. But whatever, show me a Lexus that can compete with the C55 at any price? Any model, come on, lets hear it, Lexus is the greatest car maker ever right? Surely they have something for those of us that like performance from the greatest car manufacturer in history?
    If you want performance out of the S, you can get it, you will pay for it but you can get it. How about the LS? Hmmm, nobody has answered my challenge. Lexus and Lincoln really must be the slowest luxury car lines sold in the U.S.. And that from the greatest car maker ever, amazing.
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    I wrote cabin size, that excludes the trunk

    OK, here are the government interior volume data:

    LS - 107 cf

    C55 - 89
    E - 97
    S - 106

    IQ test: Which MB model is the LS closest to?
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    Lexus is the greatest car maker ever right

    I never said that. Perhaps someone else did.

    But I don't think anyone on this board has ever said that Lexus is better than MB at everything...such as producing AMG-type performance vehicles. They don't compete there, as I think is pretty obvious.

    So you've proved that Lexus has failed at something that no one had even tried to claim as a success for them. Good for you.
  • jtbenzjtbenz Posts: 29
    Well not only don't they have anything comparable to the AMG, they really are the slowest lux car line. Admit it. They are not building Lexus for performance enthusiasts. And that is my point all along. Toyota wants to be the practical car maker, not the performance car maker.
    So all of you who have pretentions of your Lexus being a performance car, get over it, they are not, and they are not meant to be.
    I hear good things about the G but never driven one, but I certainly like them more than Lexus or Lincolns and would consider one. The M? hmmm, not crazy about the styling but again I have very little personal experience with them so I don't know. And they really aren't the type of car I like.
    But Nissan, Honda, Mazda and Mits all have better performance creds than Toyota.
  • kgakga Posts: 23
    This is incorrect to compare Lexus LS sales volume with Mercedes S-class. The LS competes with E-class also (at least E500).
    It would be interesting to see sales volume:
    Lexus LS + GS430 = ?
    Mercedes S + E500 = ?
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    Finally, some common ground.

    they have anything comparable to the AMG
    Agreed, but they haven't exactly tried in that department.

    the slowest lux car line. Admit it.
    S430, 0-60: 6.9 sec
    LS430, 0-60: 5.9 sec
    Now I do understand that I could buy an S600 or S65, but at what price?

    They are not building Lexus for performance enthusiasts.
    Agreed. Lexus emphasizes luxury, BMW performance, MB is somewhere in the middle as a company. Since you keep beating up Lexus on performance, why aren't you a BMW fan?
  • jtbenzjtbenz Posts: 29
    Well somebody said they are making the greatest cars ever, or at least implied it and I have nothing against Lexus owners, Some of my best friends own them, and I don't think any less of them for owning one. And I admit they are very nice well built cars, they are just not for me. Not everybody wants the same thing in a car.
    Toyota is very good at what they do but I do find it annoying when Lexus fans look down on everyone else, like we are fools for buying a different make.
    Maybe someday Lexus will build something I will like, but the current lineup. Toyota is a very good company but I think they need to spruce up their line up a little. Their cars are getting a little too conventional. Just my opinion, but it doesn't seem that they have any competitors in the excitement category like the Mustangs, AMG's, the Mit Evo, Subaru WRX, Nissan Skyline, BMW M's, caddy's XLR etc. Where is Toyota's entry?
  • kgakga Posts: 23
    You can buy E500.
    0 - 60 mph : 5+ sec.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,690
    "Toyota wants to be the practical car maker, not the performance car maker."

    I think many posts ago I said that is their business plan. For Lexus replace practical with luxury and you'd have that one right to. So what's the big deal. They are a both a practical and luxury car company that makes excellent cars. MB makes better performance sedans than Lexus, but you seem to always have to go to the AMG to prove your point. Hmmmm. You do realize - I hope - that AMG represents 1.5% of global MB sales with an annual volume of 15,000 cars sold (again that is worldwide). BMW makes better performance sedans than MB. Does that make BMW a better car?? In your mind I guess so. If not than your points about MB performance don't hold water.

    Now - just watch how MB is about to become a practical luxury car maker again under their new CEO because this whole performance/youth/hi-tech/slick car strategy has failed them badly. Or do you think they are going to stay the course and not change anything?

    Your posts about C-class cabin size are hillarious though. I mean if you are going to pick something to make a point at least pick something that is arguable instead of something that is so obviously wrong. What are you going to say next that a beetle is more roomy than an LS430?
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    Well, speaking for myself, I'll say, to each his own as far as a personal buying choice. I've considered MB myself, and may be an owner someday. But honestly, if I were to buy a German car now, it wouldn't be an MB, because of the reliability issues.
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    According to the MB website, the E500 goes 0-60 in 5.9 sec.

    That's a tie with the LS430.
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