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Comments
And Doc, I have nothing against the car, especially the GXP V8 model, and it help matters that they sell by the boatload. But with new cars like the Avalon that is leaps and bounds ahead of it, it seems almost unthinkable that car of this sort could beat out the Avalon.
LJ, you're right. While cars in Buick, Chevy, Pontiac, and Caddy divsions have enjoyed a recent resurrection in sales and quality, the other "premium" brands like Saab and Hummer-(especially) have tanked so hard that they're hanging on by a thread. Even the H3 couldn't erase all of the problems that drove people to drop the Hummer H2 back off where they bought it. This is where I give Lexus it's due recognition. Sure they're not the performance drivers choice of car, but without a doubt, Lexus won't build it or even sell it without the quality and reliability to boot.
GM, I applaud their recent successful models, mainly the new focus of Cadillac. But to become full circle, the maker must improve division to division. Ford and GM may have bit off more they can chew, but they can't turn back now. And DCX with Smart!!!????........... Need we relive the $600M in losses of '98 for Smart? Smart, no, maybe very DUMB......
Toyota is well below the industry average, while Nissan and Honda are well above it. BMW and MB edged out Lexus.
But what's even more interesting is that Land Rover came in dead last of the IQS, yet 8th place in APEAL?? Something's not adding up. Most luxury brands, including domestics, finshed above norm.
The way I see it everything’s adding up just perfectly—there’s more to driving than reliability, hence the German marques in the first three places and five in the top ten. Hasn’t that been a point of contention in this thread since Atlantis fell into the ocean? Even Jag is up there. Plenty of people want some excitement, panache, vitality, vim, verve anything... ANYTHING but snoozemobiles!!!
;-)
Now this post (#16866) is more like what I enjoy hearing from you. That picture of the evolution of the CL was great fun (even if it was hard to see the individual models very well).
The SEC you showed hearkens further back than necessary for my tastes. I am not suggesting that a car has to be that "boxy" to be "classically" handsome. For example, I like the recent SL. My point was only that when designers start playing with the shape of every single design element in something, it becomes too "fancied up" and "unharmonic" for my tastes. Again, look at the interior: virtually every single panel or object is some irregular shape. It's just too much, again for my tastes.
But I do agree that the similarity between many of the previous gen models was too great.
Now you know what 95-99 percent of buyers look for? Due tell. I gotta ask why is that your particular circle is supposed to count for the majority of LS buyers? I can only imagine that the Mercedes name is dirt within your circle and Mercedes can't do anything right.
My original point was that the LS430 didn't handle as well as the German cars in the segment. Period. All this about who bought what and why wasn't my focus. I know there are plenty of former Mercedes owners driving Lexuses now, again that wasn't in dispute especially concerning the LS. Now you say that your circle says that the LS is the best car they've ever driven? The actual reason as to why they say this would be more helpful here, not the usual gloss over about Lexuses being the "best" with nothing to back up the belief. This group you speak of has never had a problem with any Lexus in years and years and they seem to be the happiest bunch of buyers on the planet. I find it all kinda silly at this point because to them (and you) Lexus is absolutely perfect. This about the handling has been drawn out just because you and Oac either couldn't handle that a Lexus isn't tops in every category and/or it was dismissed by saying that a lot former Benz owners drive LS430's now. I mean really does it take all that rigamarole?
I can see why some of them would fall in love with a Lexus, but there are others here (outside of your circle) that come back to MB after the Lexus experience gets too boring.
BTW many of these people also have moved to the RX, the GX, the LX, the GS, have picked up an ES for their spouse and now an IS (or SC) for kids or as a toy. But keep on thinking it's only the LS doing the job if that is what you want to think.
Good for them, this can (and does) happen with any buyer that discovers a new brand and has a good experience with it. Keep thinking that the majority of Lexus owners are former MB owners. Those days are over and the only Lexus model that really did (or does) any converting is the LS.
People trade all types of cars in on other brands, but with Lexus it was always the LS that brought in the highest percentage of MB owners. The other Lexus models don't attract any more MB owners than they do any other brand. You could stop the average GS,ES,RX or LX buyer and I bet they didn't own a Mercedes before, but with the LS you'll get more that did. This about all of Lexus' models getting the "job done" means what? What 'job' is that? A mass exodus away from Mercedes? Yeah sure.
The main reason a MB owner would trade to a Lexus is reliability, not the way the car drives, provided they could actually tell the difference in the first place, which I'm convinced some in your circle were clueless about if they find the LS430 to be the best "driving car they've ever driven". Wish I knew what that meant exactly, but I'd guess it is all about silence, nav and sound systems being perfect rather than anything actually relating to how the car actuallly "drives". Just my guess going by what I see written here about why a Lexus is so good.
Lastly, if some Germancar buyers are willing to sacrafice some relibility for a better driving experience (not riding experience which is what most of Lexus' biggest defenders talk about) then the reverse is true. I've read it here before from Lexus owners, they'll give up some of the driving experience, style etc. for a more reliabile vehicle.
M
1. Their reliablity isn't as bad as the survey worshipers would like you to believe.
or....
2. Mercedes' "poor" reliability isn't enough of a factor to put much of a damper on the other great attributes of the car.
How in the world could a Land Rover be appealing when they spend all their time going back and forth to service?
M
My point was only that when designers start playing with the shape of every single design element in something, it becomes too "fancied up" and "unharmonic" for my tastes. Again, look at the interior: virtually every single panel or object is some irregular shape. It's just too much, again for my tastes.
Well I see what you're saying, but I don't find anything wrong with it from here, but I do see your point.
Come on Gary, interior aside you know you like this...lol!
Oh, here are 2 larger pics pics of the previous CLs.
M
M
I mean on paper why would anyone buy anything but a Lexus? The fact that other less-reliable brands are also thriving tells all.
M
Porsche Euro Delivery Disaster
One thing I'd like to know is the timeline that this survey was conducted. BTAIM, the results do look interesting.
Styling: The IS was higher ranked than the new e90; conversely, the 7 was higher than the LS and S (new or old style ?). Even the GS/A6/5 were all tied... whowouldathunkdat based on some of the bashing the GS has received here by people like Merc1.
Porsche placing 1st makes sense. All their cars are cute and satisfying to owners. Whoever does not like a Porsche, pls stand up and get outta this forum now !
So let's add up the "scores" in the individual model performance categories by manufacturer:
Toyota/Lexus won 4 categories
BMW/Mini won 2 categories
MB won 1 category
Infiniti/Nissan won 5 categories (how the QX won anything beats me)
Audi was a 0-for !
Porsche tied for 1 win
BTW, the new Camry is selling pretty briskly... the new S is doing extremely well as well, how are these not reflected in their ranking afterall the survey concludes that new models are the best winners ?
Clearly things don't appear to be adding up, IMO.
I drove one last night (make that early this am, about 3am to be exact), a Jetta 2.5, on a car rental from LAX to San Diego arriving from a trip to chow-city Boston. Talk about the Jetta as a snoozemobile ! Not...
gotta love snoozemobiles....
1. Their reliablity isn't as bad as the survey worshipers would like you to believe.
or....
2. Mercedes' "poor" reliability isn't enough of a factor to put much of a damper on the other great attributes of the car.
How in the world could a Land Rover be appealing when they spend all their time going back and forth to service?"
Let's remember, the Apeal study is more a popularity contest, than a objective measure of things like defects and cost of ownership.
Here is J.D. Power on what the APEAL study measures:
"The (APEAL) study, now in its 11th year, measures owner delight with the design, content, layout and performance of their new vehicles."
In other words, it's ruled by the "Pretty cars"! Or even ugly cars with "Hey, Cool!" features.
This is why the Rav4, IS, and BMWs are major players here. They were built to make a great first impression. :shades:
Generally, the Japaneese aren't concerned with making a splash with styling or performance, but producing something of enduring quality. This doesn't score many points in this survey.
Nissan is the most Maverick of the Japanese, so it places well in this one.
DrFill
Emerald Club Car - National Car Rental - LAX
Ehm.... slyly ? Nothing sly about that post, BlkHemi. Look again at the APEAL segment award winners and you'll find Lexus with 2 wins (IS250/350 and GX470 (tied for 1st)). I think Audi's no-show has to do with its lower model variants here in the US. If and when Audi significantly increases their product line here, they may really start to get some love from the market...
As Doc will say, don't be hating on Lexus, BlkHemi
I thnk you are drawing a false dichotomy here. The things that delighted me about my 328i when i bought it still delight me at 115K miles.
It is entirely possible (but not necessary) that what delights us on first purchase will continue to do so much later.
And OAC, I'm not hatin'(as kids say these days) on Lexus. If you'd re-read some of my earlier posts form this month I repeatedly praised the company for their newly found energy at being more competitive, especially in light of what's coming out of Europe and Toyota's own Japanese rival, Nissan/Infiniti.
And the new LS, with it's body-heat sensing auto temp control, first-ever use of LED headlights(supposed to last the lifetime of the car, and of course the 600h, the company has hopefully become full circle. And if the LS gets better suspenders this go-round, then we all might be talking a different tune.
BTW: If Lexus wants to get really serious, dump the frumpy SC and build the LF-A. With V-10 power and over 500-hp, it'll be a very welcome entry to the company. The Infiniti Skyline GTR should be a nice competitor, as well as the upcoming Audi R8 and Bimmer M6.
There's nothing wrong with the SC that better styling and a more involving driving experience can't fix. Keep in mind you'll probably be able to buy two SC430s for the price of the LF-A, it wouldn't exactly be a replacement for the SC. In the same vein, the Nissan GT-R (it won't be badged as an Infiniti here, much to the chagrin of Infiniti dealers) is most likely going to be $75K tops, probably less. Not really an LF-A competitor.
Anyway, the LF-A's group is already plenty crowded, even without the Nissan. In addition to the upcoming Audi and BMW, its got the Aston V8 Vantage, 911, SL55, and the next Acura NSX to contend with.
A more accurate impersonation would be....."Don't hate the player, hate the game!"
DrFill
Well said...
BTW: If Lexus wants to get really serious, dump the frumpy SC and build the LF-A. With V-10 power and over 500-hp, it'll be a very welcome entry to the company. The Infiniti Skyline GTR should be a nice competitor, as well as the upcoming Audi R8 and Bimmer M6.
Like LG said, the GT450 (codenamed: LF-A) is not a competitor for the RS/M, rather competes with the SL, Carerra, etc class of sports cars. Recall the specs on the GT450: V10, 500HP, 12K rpm, ~200mph top speed, and priced close to $150K (give-or-take a nickel). Should get here Sept 2007 as an MY'08 release. Given Lexus lack of sports car history, how this car fares in the market would be important for any sporty-genre Lexus hopes to impart on its other cars. A tuning arm won't be bad either, so as to really put more sporty-feel in their cars.
I thought I read last week where Carlos Ghosn did in fact see that the GT-R would be a more viable car at Infiniti, not Nissan, who will begin selling souped-up 400-450hp Nismo versions of the '08 Z?
And yes, altho the Z and LF-A are very different in pricing(as far as we know as they've not been fully disclosed), they're very much in the same realm.
Think Vette Z06 and Porsche 911 Turbo/GT2. The Porsche's cost twice as much as the Z06's 65k price tag, but the Z06 will wipe the smirk right off of it. The same with a $190k 600-hp SL65 AMG and a $80k Jag XK. Very much competitors just at different price points and content.
As most know, I owned an W220-platformed S65 AMG. That car was fantastic to drive, but it did have some gripes, mainly MB's evidence in cost-cutting, which happened across the board with most MB cars. But with this iteration, MB took off the restraint and gave it's all.
At our local MB dealer, a dealer of which I've been dealing with for over 30 years, got 2 of the first batches of S65's to come across the pond. Me being me, I pulled in to check it out. As with the S600 I tested last month, the owner of dealership let me torture it for a day. Not to worry as he said it would be his own personal ride.
First things first. Immediately did I notice that MB put much attention on seperating the S65 from lesser models like the S550 and even the S63, unlike the old car which on the inside had little difference. The interior has more aluminum than wood, and the fit and finish is exemplary, not quite Audi-like, but wholly improved. And need I say POWER? Nothing short of amazing. Interestingly tho the car has 1 less hp than the outgoing model.... And with this much improvement comes a much increased premium, $179k v. $169k for the W220. But when you got it, hey...
All in all, the car makes you forget that you're hauling around 5k pounds of glass and metal. So glued to the road that fast turns are taken with aplomb. I hated to return the car last night, but he's willing to make me a deal on this one Merc.....
I'm not sure I really buy that. The Z06 can probably keep up with a Ferrari F430 as well, but does that make them direct competitors? I don't really think it does.
I don't understand your argument about the XK and SL65. It would be the same as if I said the Benz C280 is a competitor to the Audi RS4, just at different price points and content. No, it isn't. They aren't even close.
And yes, the MB C280 and A4 are competitors, with the C55 being the RS 4's direct competitor, altho the RS 4 is 30k more.
And trust me, VERY few cars can beat or meet a Z06, let alone meet it's price point. It's next closest competitor would be the SRT-10 Viper @ $85k. But because of the $20k pricing disparity, they're not competitors? The next best thing would praobably be the Porsche Turbo and then the F430(well into the 150-200k price points), the only two cars that are remotely close to it's lofty performance level. And then you have cars like the SL65 which has over 600-hp but can only dream of being a Vette. And when the XKR comes to market, it will indeed be a SL55/65 competitor, altho surely it won't be as quick or nearly as expensive, probably 100k less thant the 65. Pricing should not set the tone for competitors. If that's the case, the $60k LS surely isn't in the league with the $90k S550 and $100k Maser QP.
And powertrains don't even say which class a car is in. The Chrysler Sebring Convert. is in the same class as the Mustang GT, Pontiac G6 Hardtop convert, and Mitsubishi Eclipse GT convert., all of which are more powerful and better performers.
Thats what I was saying, the C and A4 compete in the same class, as do the XK and SL. That doesn't make the base, 300hp XK a direct competitor to the SL65. The XKR is not quite enough for the SL55, just as the S-type R really cant compete with the E63. Like the S-type, it's sort of a between class car, more than the SL550 and 650, but less than the M6 and SL55. Jaguar has nothing to compete with the SL65. They'd have to use a Vanquish S V-12, and then supercharge it, to even hope to compete with the SL65, and that's never going to happen.
I'm not really sure what the Corvette has to do with the discussion. Its cheap, and it goes fast, but it has no real sophistication or refinement. Thats why the 911 Turbo and F430 cost so much more money. I'm quite sure that AMG Gmbh have no interest in making a car with leaf springs, a plastic interior, and a massive lump of pushrod V8. Thats not what they do.
A class of cars is derived from a variety of factors. The type of platform, overall size, powertrain, which wheels are the drive wheels, market positioning, and pricing. There isn't a single factor that's all important, but you can't simply ignore any of them either.
And you're right. The S-type R has no real competitor. It's a tweener The E63, S6, and M5 surely won't run from it. The same can be said about the XJR. The S63, A8 W-12, and 760i won't get in the slow lane for it, let alone their sportiest models. If you want Italian leather, half working A/C, cramped interior, sloppy transmissions, and noisy cabins, then by a $200k piece of junk only to hope and pray you squeeze 1k miles out of it before the electrical system fry's out. Or the "better" computer controlled suspension fails, and so-on.
Each of the aforementioned categories do in fact decide classes, but price is not the only one, neither is power or interior dimensions, the main mis-conception. The Porsche as a rear seat for instance.
That's great! Just think- in only 7-10 years you will get your money back from the $2965 premium over a comparably equipped SE.
Check out the May 2006 issue of R&T. They estimate, that at an average price of $2.62/gallon, you will have to drive 101,195 miles to re-coup the premium, with the Camry hybrid averaging 37.3 mpg in their test.
All this with worse braking of the hybrid (136 ft vs 127 ft from 60 mph) compared to the SE.
10.6 cu ft vs 12.4 cu ft of trunk space of the hybrid compared to the SE.
Note that the Camry hybrid does come with an optional sunroof, unlike the Accord hybrid.
In the new CR family sedans list, the Camry hybrid is all the way down in the 6th position. The Accord hybrid is listed as number 3. The good old gasoline-powered Accord EX V6 is number 1.
Sorry, but I remain a Team Europe Hybrid Naysayer.
Is 101k miles too high a breakeven? The life of the average car is 113k (source), and I would suggest that anything less than 113k as a breakeven is economically justified.
But you should also be asking a few other questions:
1. What breakeven is suggested by the CR mpg results? Answer: 81k miles (at the R&T pr/gal of 2.62). Average of R&T and CR: 92k miles.
2. Is $2.62 a realistic price of gasoline over the life of the car? Answer (imho): no. At $3.50 (I paid $3.65 just last week!), breakeven is 76k per R&T, 61k per CR. At $4.50 (bless Hubbert's peak), breakeven is 59k per R&T, 47k per CR.
3. Does the breakeven analysis measure cost/benefit to the environment? Answer: no.
All this being said, as I've posted before, I don't believe that hybrids in their current form are going to take the world by storm. But the technology is young so imho we will see it improve substantially, in size, weight, and economics.
I can't remember the last time I paid $2.62!
Sure wish I could get my hands on a R&T discount card!
You can now put Ford on your team. There was some news this week that Ford is dropping its plans to make 250,000 hybrids by 2010, and they are going to focus more on diesels and other tech instead.
Oh yes, and for the environmentalists, including naysayers on hybrid batteries, this from R&T:
Our three hybrids qualify in California as AT-PZEVs, Advanced-Technology Partial Zero Emissions Vehicles. Their Honda and Toyota siblings are ULEV-2s, meeting the second phase of Ultra Low Emissions Vehicle standards. The gasoline Escape is a Low Emissions Vehicle, Phase 2.
To put these in perspective, a LEV is roughly 90 percent cleaner than a pre-emissions-controlled car. A ULEV raises this to about 96 percent. It has been noted that a ULEV literally scrubs the air of a typical urban environment. An AT-PZEV is more than 25 percent cleaner still, bringing its reduction well into the 99-percent range. By almost any measure, hybrids offer significant environmental payoff.
What about hybrid batteries? Aren't they an environmental tradeoff? At first, this was something of an unknown. But our earliest Honda Insights and Toyota Priuses are now into their sixth year (eighth, in their home market). Indications are that battery packs are lasting the life of the car; that is, they're every bit as durable as gasoline engines. What's more, the recycled value of their nickel is high, and a secondary market of reconditioned batteries is evolving. source
Now if only Ford would banish those dreadful Taylor Hicks "possibilidy" commercials!
Clean diesel fuel will probably cost the same as, or more than premium gasoline in most areas. Additionally, the cars will probably cost at least a few $K more than gasoline versions, similar to hybrids. The difference really comes down to what kind of driving you do. Hybrids will be more efficient in the city, diesels on the highway.
For now, I'll just stick to making sure that my tires are always fully inflated. I know I'd get better mileage if I slowed down a bit, but there's no cure for leadfootitis.
Hahaha, yeah those are really awful. It's just plain wierd seeing ol' Dieter driving a Charger.
As far as pricing goes, I'm willing to bet that prices for "clean diesel" cars will stay in tact. For example, MB has stated several times that the E320 CDI Blutec will remain at it's $50k price point(even the E550 will remain at similar price despite gaining 80-hp and a freshened interior and exterior for '07), despite it's cleaner-than-hybrid/gas powertrain and world-first mass-produced 0-emission diesel soot. And GM and BMW have both vowed to introduce there technology at a cost comparible to their competitors.
For the price of low-sulfur diesel, in Europe it's $5/gallon, what it's been for the past decade. Most of it is taxes/duty. But gasoline is pricier there now, hence the recent surge in diesel purchases there. And by '10, the EPA says that low-sulfur diesel will be the only diesel in the US, sort of like switching from lead to unleaded gas.
Hybrids: I think that the technology will be around for some time to come. But is it our saving grace in it's current form. Probably not. But with many domestic and Euro makes playing with the notion of diesel-hybrid, the sky is the limit...
FWIW, Ford please buy out the contracts of Taylor Hicks and Toby Keith and stop making a mockery of yourselves. And DCX, Deiter!?!?! GM, well, I don't know......
Toyota has already stated a 100-MPG goal for the next Prius in 2010!
The batteries will get smaller, and find a less intrusive location, like under the back seat.
Honda will adopt Toyota's approach, like shutting off the engine at idle, with their own innovative spins and variations. Like Toyota did with VTec.
And diesel may be the next great alternative, but it's an uphill climb, as Americans are about as fond of diesels as they are of station wagons. :sick:
Anything that is more efficient, AND more powerful, and more eco-friendly, is gonna be worth a premium.
The RX330 was less powerful and less efficient than the RX400h. Now with the RX350, the power advantage is gone. Sales have slumped for the 400h.
If Lexus really does make the GT500 out of Carbon fiber, and reaches it's alleged target weight of 2600lbs., this game is truly over!
I still want a stick, doh!
DrFill
Which game would that be? Please elaborate. I hope you realize this is not a tiddleewinks match they’re entering with this car. It’s a major league tryout.
Where did you get the speculation on the target weight? For the record, this is something everyone would welcome since performance cars have been putting on weight like McDonald’s eatin’ Americans. Weight is an enemy and with that engine profile it will HAVE to be light to yield competitive dragstrip times for sale on the street, a place where the high revvers have not been successful.
A V8 Ferrari F430 weighs 3196 and a 6 cyl Porsche GT3 weighs 3075. A V10 Lexus GT 500 will weigh 2600? A salute, Don Corleone!
Indeed it is a very interesting car at this point. But doc, no thanks on the Kool Aid. I’d like a Pellegrino if you have it. If not a glass of ice water would be fine with apologies to my man Oac.
;-)
Does it sound a little far-fetched? Yeah!
They aren't turning a Corolla into a $150k car. This thing is as big as the competition, and will need the requisite NVH sound-deadening, a V-10 engine, safety-tech up to wazoo, 19" rims, Lexus-level luxury trappings, plus a suspension that can handle a 200MPH potential drivetrain.
Not what I would call "Easy as Lexus".
But, as I've said before, if anyone can turn the "Can do" attitude into reality, it is Team Lexus!
The way I see it, anything south of 3k is a prodigious achievement! :shades:
That and getting the Evo X under 3k too.
DrFill
The projected Lexus GT is a 4.5L V10 GT450, not a GT500. I noticed Doc made the same mistake. I don't see how this car can be that lithe to come under 3000Ib. That would be in the Lotus Elise territory.
Indeed it is a very interesting car at this point. But doc, no thanks on the Kool Aid. I’d like a Pellegrino if you have it. If not a glass of ice water would be fine with apologies to my man Oac.
Interesting indeed ! According to press reports, the car will scoot to 60 from a standstill in 4s flat. It may not have the bopper HP of the SL, but it sure can move as fast ! At 200mph top speed and a 12K rpm range to roam, the car will be a serious contender when it gets here next yr. And no kool aid necessary, my dear Designman, like u I like Pellegrinos
If they will bother to make a V10, they would bother to make it slightly larger displacement, and getting 500HP sounds like the goal. I expect similar power numbers to the M5/M6.
Regarding the weight, I'd expect a goal of 3000, not 2600 lbs.
DrFill
If Lexus trying to boost their image in the performance category, they need to start making current “sport sedans” GS and IS more sporty, by offering better suspension and a shutoff switch for idiotic VDM system (or whatever it’s called).
What Toyota does have is lot’s of money, but why waste it on GT? Give the money to the poor:)
:mad:
I'm sure the Lexus will be a great addition to the line, but is it the car that is supposed to shut down all others. Hardly, especially since all three cars that I aformentioned have a long roster of racing heritage and technology. With all of Lexus' emphasis on luxury over sport, this car will indeed tip the scales over 3500 pounds, more for the supposed AWD.
I'm not sure what your point is, here. Yes the Vette and Viper as well make 500+hp, and instead of state-of-the-art V-10s, they've got massive pushrod lumps. I dont see how that makes them "better". The Viper has what, 60hp per litre, from a truck engine? That might've been impressive 30 years ago. If you're somehow trying to say that less cylinders, regardless of cc, is always better, why did you include the SL65? It doesn't need a V-10, it needs a V-12.
I don't see how additional competition is somehow bad for auto enthusiasts. Have any of us said the Lexus GT is going to shut down Porsche, or Ferrari?
I don’t think many people are excited about it at this point. But apparently it’s a different car and one of a kind. High revving cars are a hoot to drive so this is one of the reason why I can’t help but notice it.
Next, no way in the world they will make V10 with 12000 rpm range, and if they do, they’ll have to put another 500lbs of isolation to keep the noise down.
Well, aural testimony has it sounding like an F1 engine so I put a certain amount of credence in this. Also, the novelty buyers, the must haves who get it for the street won’t be redlining it anyway. They’ll step on the gas at a stoplight, wonder where the power is, then trade it in for an SL with nary a clue of what the engine is about.
The street is one thing, the Lexus GT has high-speed track potential at least on paper so I am interested in seeing what becomes of it, unlike the M5 which really belongs on the street but has an engine that is better suited for track.
Well, doc did in so many words, heh heh, incendiary words
If Lexus really does make the GT500 out of Carbon fiber, and reaches it's alleged target weight of 2600lbs., this game is truly over!
By the way I neglected to mention the V10 Carrera GT which is carbon fiber and weighs 3043.
I agree with competition being the best possible scenario. I think a current example of this is the Z4 M Roadster and Coupe. Porsche unexpectedly went ahead and put the Cayman engine in the 07 Boxster S giving it a 15 hp boost.
I don’t think the Lexus GT will break the cash registers but neither did the Acura NSX which was an awesome car. I think the best scenario would be for the Lexus to accomplish something in racing and put real sport alternatives in their lineup.
Yep, the more performance cars the better. Let them fight it out with power and price. Healthy competition rules, and Lexus will certainly get my applause if it brings this unique buzz bomber to the table.
Even I, ruthless leader of Team Lexus, expressed a measure of disbelief in this latest Auto news story.
But I couldn't, in my right mind, disregard it as fantasy, as we all have see the spy photos, and videos of this future Lexus Supercar.
All I'm sayin' is, as they did with the Legend that was Supra, if they want to make the best sports car, or Supercar, in the World, I wouldn't dare say they couldn't.
The World has changed since June 1993, but Toyota/Lexus has only changed for the better.
I wouldn't bet against them.
DrFill