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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    LS430 is being replaced very soon as well; do you see 30% discount on them? Of course not. Is R class being replaced soon? Is E class being replaced soon? Both MB models have massive discounts. "Bull, plain and simple."

    Nope because the LS430 has at least 9 more months to go, not 30 days! Big difference. I already acknowledged that the R-Class launch didn't go well. Even I got an email and a flyer in the mail about the R-Class.

    Problem is you're trying to imply that the S-Class has been discounted at the current level all the time and that simply isn't true.

    M
  • Stiff suspension does not mean good handling. S600 positively plows thanks to its weight up front . . . the most terrible setup for a RWD car, a big reason why AMG did not make anything based on that V12 power plant.

    LS430 handles plenty good enough for this class.
  • Still does not explain why E class is being heavily discounted. I will tell you why, the auto industry turning drasticly down in the last few months . . . as they say, when tide goes out, we get to see who's been swimming naked.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Never driven the S600 so, but I haven't seen anyone complain about the handling of the S600 either. Again, why is that the S600 can be compared to the LS430 at certain times? If I had made such a ridiculous comparison you'd be harping about how no one buys a S600 compared to the S430 and S500. Lexus double standards again.

    LS430 handles plenty enough if you like the boat-like experience, but it doesn't handle better than the S-Class (like you originally stated), 7-Series, XJ or A8.

    Uh as far as AMG not making anything based on that "V12 powerplant", wrong. The S65 AMG is based on the same engine.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Still does not explain why E class is being heavily discounted. I will tell you why, the auto industry turning drasticly down in the last few months . . . as they say, when tide goes out, we get to see who's been swimming naked.

    That nakedness must apply to the Acura RL, BMW 5-Series and others in the segment. The fact is that every car in this class can be had with some type of discount. Naturally you'll point to the Lexus GS and say it isn't being discounted, yet the car just came out this year, unlike the E-Class. As cars age they get discounted, but in the case of MB it means that the sky is falling.

    M
  • Never driven the S600 so, but I haven't seen anyone complain about the handling of the S600 either.

    That's because handling matters very little in this class. They are all land yachts.

    Uh as far as AMG not making anything based on that "V12 powerplant", wrong. The S65 AMG is based on the same engine.

    My bad, I forgot the latest entry.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    That's because handling matters very little in this class. They are all land yachts.

    I don't disagree with that handling isn't the main thing for this class, but they aren't all land yachts. The 750i Sport isn't a land yacht, nor is the upcoming S8 or any AMG S-Class. They're very sporty for their size and weight. The Maser Quattroporte certainly isn't a land yacht. The only one that is a land yacht is the LS430 because it doesn't offer a sportier setup, or at least one an actual living, breathing person can purchase.

    M
  • If RL were the core of Acura business, the company would be in serious trouble. The matter of the fact however is that Acura would do just fine even if not a single RL is sold this month or next.

    E on the other hand is bread and butter of MB (well, in the prestigeous past anyway, before C took over the bulk of sales). Both E and C are being heavily discounted, and both are actually newer than LS430 and ES330; the Lexi have not even bothered with engine/badge updates like MB has since their model introduction years ago.
  • S8 and AMG account for such a tiny per centage of this market segment, it's not even funny. Besides, both of them, plus 750i, are not exactly "sporty" . . . unless you think the S in "SUV" stands for "sporty." 750i is very heavy. They can go pretty fast in straight line, good accelearation off the line and on highways; that's about it. Don't bother tossing them in corners.

    As for the Maser, I suppose, in the tail end of an economic boom, even the most overweight, gas guzzling and technologically benighted cars can find buyers if the price is high enough to make exotics. Since we are in a forum about marques, my prediction is that Maser will be out of the US market again within a few years.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    E on the other hand is bread and butter of MB (well, in the prestigeous past anyway, before C took over the bulk of sales). Both E and C are being heavily discounted, and both are actually newer than LS320 and ES330; the Lexi have not even bothered with engine/badge updates like MB has since their model introduction years ago.

    The LS and C-Class both came out for 2001 so they're the same age in fact. The E-Class has the unfortunate position of suddenly being the next to oldest car in a class that has been completely transformed since 2004. The 5-Series, A6, RL, GS, M, and STS are all newer so it would be expected for the E to face an uphill battle. You act as though this can't happen to anyone else. Lexus' 1998-2005 GS was just as discounted and towards the end it didn't sell much at all, unlike the E-Class which no matter what its age is always stays either #1 or #2 in the sales race.

    BTW, the ES330 is only a year older than the E-Class but more importantly the ES330 has a segment nearly to itself, hardly a valid comparison. No foreign luxury brand makes a fwd-bluehair set car to compete with the ES330.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    S8 and AMG account for such a tiny per centage of this market segment, it's not even funny. Besides, both of them, plus 750i, are not exactly "sporty" . . . unless you think the S in "SUV" stands for "sporty." 750i is very heavy. They can go pretty fast in straight line, good accelearation off the line and on highways; that's about it. Don't bother tossing them in corners. .

    So what? We're not talking about sales here. The fact that these choices are there is my point. Someone buys them in enough numbers for these brands to continue to make them. The 750i Sport (which I've driven BTW) is sporty for a vehicle of its size and weight.

    We can't discuss the cars without predictions about gloom and doom I see. Predicting that Maserati will exit the U.S. market (which I doubt since they're on the upswing) doesn't change the fact that they make a large sedan that is bascially a 4-door Ferrari. It flies in the face of that statement about all these cars being land yachts, as does a 750i or 760i Sport. These cars can be hustled to a degree despite their size and weight. You make it sound like there is no difference from any one of these cars and a LS430. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

    Now watch as this new LS460 gets sportier in base form, which still preserving the LS430's ride and likely at the same time offering some type of sport variant or sport suspension setup too.

    M
  • The 1998-2005 GS was an experimental entry to a new segment for Lexus. The car certainly did better than R-class upon introduction. Heavy discounting started only 3-4 model years after introduction unlike the R-class. Frankly, GS sales did/does not matter to Lexus, unlike the E class to MB.

    Lexus has core competence such as RX, ES and LS that account for 70-80% of total sales volume and never need heavy discounting, whereas MB does not have a single model line that can hold its price up through a model run, some heavily discounting shortly after introduction. That is indicative of massive prestige loss . . . in more technical and relevent terms: massive loss of brand equity.
  • The fact that so few of them are sold is indicative that they hardly matter in this segment. Ford makes a GT and Dodge makes a Viper; that does not mean either model is profitable, nor do they make Ford or Dodge prestigeous brands. If you like to hustle thorugh the corners, a smaller and lighter car does much better.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    The 1998-2005 GS was an experimental entry to a new segment for Lexus. The car certainly did better than R-class upon introduction. Heavy discounting started only 3-4 model years after introduction unlike the R-class. Frankly, GS sales did/does not matter to Lexus, unlike the E class to MB.

    Now this is desperate brightness. The 1998 GS was an expirement, but the 2006 R-Class isn't? What bs, not to mention a big-fat-excuse for the 1998 GS having flopped after the 2000 MY because the 1998 GS was the second generation of the GS, hardly a new segment/experimental car like the R-Class is. The R-Class isn't replacing a current Mercedes, unlike the 1998 GS did. The first generation IS300 was an experiment, but the 1998 GS wasn't.

    Lexus has core competence such as RX, ES and LS that account for 70-80% of total sales volume and never need heavy discounting, whereas MB does not have a single model line that can hold its price up through a model run, some heavily discounting shortly after introduction. That is indicative of massive prestige loss . . . in more technical and relevent terms: massive loss of brand equity.

    Yeah right, I guess the previous GS and IS were selling for sticker as is the current SC430. You're not dealing in reality if you think these models weren't discounted or that the current SC430 isn't being discounted now. You think the LS430, who's sales are dropping this year isn't being discounted at all? Yeah right.

    To say that a model like the GS doesn't matter to Lexus is nothing more than a big fat excuse. If the car didn't matter they wouldn't have redesigned it! Don't tell the other Lexus fans here that the GS' sales don't matter because it has now become a huge part of the typical Lexus sales speech.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    The fact that so few of them are sold is indicative that they hardly matter in this segment. Ford makes a GT and Dodge makes a Viper; that does not mean either model is profitable, nor do they make Ford or Dodge prestigeous brands. If you like to hustle thorugh the corners, a smaller and lighter car does much better.

    Who said that were the most important thing here? I said that at least MB,BMW, Audi and Jaguar offer you a choice with their AMG/M/S/RS/R cars, unlike Lexus. If performance didn't matter at all Lexus wouldn't be planning a 400hp next generation LS. I guess then it will matter because the car will be a hybrid right?

    For the last time, we all know a lighter car does better in corners which is why I have said (twice now) that some of these cars do pretty well in the sport department, for their size and weight.

    M
  • Predicting that Maserati will exit the U.S. market (which I doubt since they're on the upswing) doesn't change the fact that they make a large sedan that is bascially a 4-door Ferrari.

    You know what real Ferrari fans say about V8 Ferraris ;-)

    In any case, Quotrroporte is a car that has 1/4 less power and 1/3 more weight than the current V8 "cheap" Ferrari, about 40% reduction in power-to-weight ratio (0.15 vs. 0.09, hp/lb). For what it's worth, Honda Accord V6 has a power to weight ratio of 0.0727; in other words, Quottroporte is closer to Accord V6 than it is to the entry-level Ferrari, in terms of power-to-weight ratio, all marketing-speak not withstanding. Now you see why I said Maser will probably out of the market in a few years.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Lexus has core competence such as RX, ES and LS that account for 70-80% of total sales volume and never need heavy discounting, whereas MB does not have a single model line that can hold its price up through a model run, some heavily discounting shortly after introduction. That is indicative of massive prestige loss . . . in more technical and relevent terms: massive loss of brand equity.

    This is one is so good I had to reply twice. This (grand excuse) lets the previous GS and IS off the hook for being sales slackers because they weren't "core models". Also, this seems to imply that every Lexus has held to MSRP throughout its entire production run. That is plain bs brightness. Every car on the market goes through the same cycle of being hot and then decline with some discounting at the end of the production run. Lexus is no different.

    The only thing that differs from brand to brand is how the maker controls the supply of model at the end. Some will try to flood the market with units (even add models like MB did) and others will cut production to keep from having to resort to discounting.

    Lexus will slow down production or an outgoing model like the LS430 and then their fans here will act as though they're hot sellers right up until the end, nevermind that they're selling less units, like the LS430 is this year.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    In any case, Quotrroporte is a car that has 1/4 less power and 1/3 more weight than the current V8 "cheap" Ferrari, about 40% reduction in power-to-weight ratio (0.15 vs. 0.09, hp/lb). For what it's worth, Honda Accord V6 has a power to weight ratio of 0.0727; in other words, Quottroporte is closer to Accord V6 than it is to the entry-level Ferrari, in terms of power-to-weight ratio, all marketing-speak not withstanding. Now you see why I said Maser will probably out of the market in a few years.

    Actually I don't see anything but a lot of meaningless numbers to people who want a sporty sedan like the Quattroporte. All of that and it still doesn't change the fact that the Quattroporte is the sportiest sedan in the segment by far.

    You can crunch numbers until the four Maserati brothers start spinning in their graves. It isn't going to matter one bit. Take a look at the owners of this vehicle on the Quattroporte board, they're as happy as they can be.

    No I don't know what "real" Ferrari fans say about Ferrari V8s? Can't be anything negative since the F430 and the F360 before it outsells any other Ferrari model at the time.

    M
  • I guess then it will matter because the car will be a hybrid right?

    It will be yet another battle in a different segment. Lexus strategy seems to be stepping into a market, transform itself from a new comer to a market leader by focusing on the meat of the market; then rinse and repeat for the sub-segment that it did not touch previously.

    S8/AMG sales don't matter much in the context of regular A8, S, and LS sales; it does matter in an S8 vs. AMG competition, to be joined later with whatever Lexus bothers to offer, bankrolled by its LS sales.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    S8/AMG sales don't matter much in the context of regular A8, S, and LS sales; it does matter in an S8 vs. AMG competition, to be joined later with whatever Lexus bothers to offer, bankrolled by its LS sales.

    Which is nothing different from what MB/Audi/BMW does. However this concept gets knocked until Lexus does it, then it is seen as something new and different.

    M
  • hmm, I thought crunching numbers on cars that you do not own is your favorite sport ;-) If I had $100k to spend on a full size sedan and revel in its sportiness (talk about trying to squeeze blood out of a rock), I'd be very happy too.
  • I think you missed the point. Please re-read my previous post, leave out Lexus, and just consider Audi vs. MB if you wish:

    S8/AMG sales do not matter if we are discussing A8 vs. S class sales because the sport division sales numbers are miniscule compared to the regular lines; S8 vs. AMG sales do matter if we are talking about S8 and AMG sales. Clear now?
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    hmm, I thought crunching numbers on cars that you do not own is your favorite sport

    Nope, and especially not the irrelevant kind comparing the Maser to a Honda Accord.

    M
  • No I don't know what "real" Ferrari fans say about Ferrari V8s? Can't be anything negative since the F430 and the F360 before it outsells any other Ferrari model at the time.

    The feeling must be the same as what "real" MB fans think of C and A classes, and "real" Porsche fans thought of 924/944, Boxster and Cayenne. The latter also outsells/outsold all other models among the respective brands.
  • Accord is simply the base-line benchmark for sedans.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    S8/AMG sales do not matter if we are discussing A8 vs. S class sales because the sport division sales numbers are miniscule compared to the regular lines; S8 vs. AMG sales do matter if we are talking about S8 and AMG sales. Clear now?

    I see what you're saying, but I disagree because these cars are what make up the S-Class or the A8 range. They're included when the these companies count the sales for the month/year etc. They shouldn't be left out just because Lexus doesn't have anything to compete in that space.

    Besides that, we weren't talking about sales. We were talking about your claim that all these cars were "land yachts", then since they all aren't you then veered off into the endless stuff about sales as a distraction.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Well with the A-Class I feel that way myself, but not about the C-Class. It is just as much a "Mercedes" as anything else they make.

    I haven't see anyone say that about a F430 or F355 or even the 348 Ferrari so I don't buy that one. One of the most recent, but legendary Ferraris of all time (the F40) was a V8. No one complained about it.

    M
  • The whole point about them mattering little is because including or excluding them does not affect the sales ranking in the main line tallies.
  • "I haven't see anyone say that about a F430 or F355 or even the 348 Ferrari so I don't buy that one."

    You can buy whatever your money allows you. If you have not seen/heard of the put-downs on V8 Ferraris, well you have not been around real Ferrari fans long enough.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    The whole point about them mattering little is because including or excluding them does not affect the sales ranking in the main line tallies.

    Unless you have the breakout for the S-Class sales every year you don't know that for sure. This year the S-Class is running neck and neck with the 7-Series so every unit sold counts and will deterimine the #2 sales spot in this class behind the LS430.

    M
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