High End Luxury Cars

tagman

Transport Canada's Registrar of Imported Vehicles (RIV) program ensures that qualifying vehicles are modified, inspected and certified to meet Canadian safety standards.

Clarence,
Curious... What are the safety standards in Canada that we don't have here in the States?

TagMan

hpowders

And it's all in good fun! I believe everybody here has been a good sport. No need to get carried away here. It's only cars!

tagman

And it's all in good fun!

you bet it is. :shades:
TagMan

hpowders

"Except for the breaking distance."

How did they manage to test that?
Drive each car into a 20 inch thick steel wall from 70 mph?

I didn't read the article. So which car broke first? :shades:

hpowders

This is really and truly a great group of folks and now it has been expanded by adding a couple of first round draft picks who have already been elevated to starting posters.

2001gs430

Ha ha funny... the spell checker didn't tell me about the grammar error. At least it was spelled correctly.

jcoby

Interesting dialogue between the two of you.

I must kindly note, however, that the way that you phrased your rant does not appear to allude to the "bottom line as being relative to itself." I have highlighted the words that you previously stated that would lead a reasonable person to conclude that you are comparing Toyota Motor Co. (and its Lexus brand) to other manufacturers and not solely to itself.

"Toyota Motor Co. practically owns the list for the worst vehicles when it comes to safety. They have more unsafe vehicles at the top of the least-safe category than any other manufacturer in the world.
How many people know THAT?
Funny how Toyota/Lexus has fooled so many for so long."

Since I do not reside in Tagman's head, I cannot fully discredit your assertion that you were comparing Toyota to itself and not to other makes. However, if this is true, your sentence should have been more carefully structured to make your personal interpretation clearer to other forum members. Your statement seems to clearly imply that Toyota has more of the least safe (or lowest rated; to be interpreted as a "Poor" rating) vehicles than any other manufacturer on planet Earth - which of course is patently false according to the IIHS itself.

designman

Hi Oac!

How do you stand these days with your LS 460 quest? I remember reading your plan a few months ago but you know how things change. After all, here you are showing up with sporty cars on the brain. Here’s my response:

1 – The Boxster S is definitely the more fun car but if your wife is like mine she would probably want the BMW so I understand where that might be coming from. Aside from this the cars are night and day. Of course the Porsche is the thoroughbred sports car.

2 – You mentioned 330ci but seemed to imply it is a convertible which is the 330cic. At that price for the convertible it seems like a good deal. If it’s the coupe then it seems around full retail and not a good deal.

3 – Although $35K is what the dealer might ask for the Boxster S, I think it’s overpriced. Boxsters are to be had at bargains because they make a lot of them and they depreciate fairly quickly when new. I think that car could be had at around $32K from the dealer and $30K from an individual. I hear So Cal is murder on car prices though.

4 – Dhamilton mentioned considering the S2000. Yes I agree with that and you can pick one up brand spankin’ new for under $30K and it is indeed reliable and drives great. However, the drawbacks are size, cargo space, noise and a peaky engine. IMO, you can drive comfortably all day in Boxster but the S2000 is apt to wear you out, especially the passenger. It's also a very pure driver's car but the Boxster is definitely the well-rounded car. S2000 is not available with an automatic though.

5 – On the Boxster S with Tiptronic. Lots of people are anti Tip but if you absolutely HAVE to have it for some reason just go with it because it is still a fun car. It zaps torque in auto mode because of relatively high gearing and low RPM shift points but you can always use manual mode if inclined. It is not a smooth transmission like the BMW’s and it starts in 2nd gear unless pushed with the throttle. Having said this, I encourage you to get the manual transmission if possible. Also, the Tip depreciates more and they say it is harder to sell.

6 – Warranties. With both the Boxster and BMW make sure get a CPO and if not, knock that price down. Cars from that year might even come with original warranty left.

Hope this helps.

tagman

That statement was posted well BEFORE I ever posted any actual article referencing the highway safety study... but I believe that explains the confusion that was here for a while. :confuse: It would have been much clearer if I had indicated the specific category Toyota was worse in.

Good work, and I appreciate the clarity that your post will bring. You should be aware that after posting the actual article about the IIHS study, and Toyota's results, I believe I always referred to Toyota's "lower" overall rating as being relative to itself, which, IMO, is exactly what the article meant for it to mean. I am quite certain you will agree that I was consistently clear on this point.

Regardless, the bottom line is still the same, as you know I have been saying repeatedly throughout these posts.

IMO, an excellent job, jcoby, of untangling the confusion.

TagMan

syswei

Toyota Motor Co. practically owns the list for the worst vehicles when it comes to safety. They have more unsafe vehicles at the top of the least-safe category than any other manufacturer in the world.
How many people know THAT?
Funny how Toyota/Lexus has fooled so many for so long.
...
That statement was posted well BEFORE I ever posted any actual article referencing the highway safety study

OK, so if the statement wasn't based on the IIHS study, what was it based on? Blind faith in German superiority in all things, including safety?

tagman

Before posting the actual article, I recalled the study from memory. It would have been much clearer to have posted the specific category that Toyota did the worst in.

Regardless, even now, the bottom line doesn't change.

Surely that must be clear enough for you now! Or do I need an attorney?

TagMan

syswei

OK, maybe we should let this rest. I think we have as close to a mea culpa as we are ever going to get from a germancarfan.

oac

Oh my !!! I got here a few minutes ago and had to wade thro' 5 pages of posts... this is surely a busy forum

Let me thank DHamilton, TagMan, D-Man, and Houdini1 for all of your comments... Tag, I have surely been way behind this forum so forgive my question here: Did you ditch the Lotus for the 911 ? Or did you add the latter to the stable ? Either way, you (and Dewey) must be flowing in $$$$ ponying up serious jack for these cars... Good job, guys.

D-Man, many thanks for the detailed write-up, just like Tag. You guys are just da best...

I plan to drive the Boxster (see, Tag, I got it right, eh?) this weekend. I am NOT sold on auto/tip... I'd prefer an MT for sure, so I'd hold out for the 6-MT Boxster S or a 5-MT 330CiC w/SP. That S2000 doesn't sound too bad, but its I-4 motor is way too peaky and high revving. Plus the Boxster or BMW just have better looks and feel than a Honda. I will also be looking around for better deals, except that here in San Diego, its slim pickings for lux cars. You kinda get fleeced, so I may head to LA where the choices and bargains are plentiful. I can say I am definitely leaning towards the Porsche. Looks like its gonna be a lotta fun car, and with D-Man and Tag giving the car 2 thumbs up, that's good enough for me

I will keep you all updated on what I end up with and when I pull the trigger.

Thanks... and huge props to syswei who created this new HELC and the forum seems to be doing real great. Even Howard is being a real gentleman no longer rabid-rouser, eh ?

Dewey, did you notice my use of eh ? I am Canadian you know, but now live in the sunshine state. Like Tag told you, you'd love it here in Cali; here in San Diego, you have the beach to the West, the mountains/snow to the East, and Mexico to the South, just in case you wanna party in Tijuana The best of all worlds, I tell you. Come down for a visit and you'd never leave again.

Take care all... Keep it cool and real. I'll be back soon.

tagman

Let me thank DHamilton, TagMan, D-Man, and Houdini1 for all of your comments...

Always there for my fellow Californian...you are very welcome, oac.

Tag, I have surely been way behind this forum so forgive my question here: Did you ditch the Lotus for the 911 ? Or did you add the latter to the stable?

Ditched the Lotus. Injured my neck (not from the car), and the Lotus's ride (truckloads of fun) was WAY too brutal, so the Porsche is MUCH smoother. Lost a little $$$ in the process due to the extremely early trade, but in the end, I'm happy as can be with the Porsche..."There is no substitute!"

Keep it cool and real. I'll be back soon.

Hope so, and counting on it. Good luck and keep us posted. Can't wait to hear the outcome.


TagMan

hpowders

Well thanks, Oac for the compliment!
The pills must be starting to work!

Good luck in your negotiation for the Porsche.

Whoa! I thought Florida is the "sunshine state."
Aren't you guys the "golden state?"

I've been to San Diego many times-love Balboa Park, the great zoo and especially the wonderful Hotel del Coronado.
But always start missing the palmetto bugs, 'gators, lousy football and baseball after a week or so and trudge back east to Florida.

jcoby

Lexus and Mercedes-Benz have their sales data on their websites and is as follows (I found Lexus data at Toyota website):

Lexus
link title
The LS 430 and the all-new LS 460 reported combined sales of 3,613, an increase of 116.3 percent.

Mercedes
link title
(You will have to select December's data)
Sales of the newest generation S-Class were nearly double this month over last November (2,780 vs. 1,400)

I wonder what the LS460 will settle down to after the initial rush. The S-Class appears to have a natural range of 2400-2800 monthly based on monthly sales data throughout the year. I cut-and pasted the S-Class sales figures from earlier Mercedes press releases for the 2007 S-Class where a breakout was supplied. Please see below:

"Boosting the February volume was the launch of the all-new 2007 S-Class, Mercedes flagship vehicle, which recorded 3,360 units, a 226.8 percent increase over February 2005" [February]

"The strongest increase for the month (and for the year-to-date) was the flagship 2007 S-Class with sales of 3,033 units, an increase of 108.2 percent over last April." [April]

"The strongest increase for the month (and for the year-to-date) was the flagship 2007 S-Class with sales of 2,526 units, an increase of 84.5 percent over last May." [May]

"Highlights for the month include an 81 percent increase for the flagship S-Class model line (2,407 v. 1,330 units)." [June]

"August sales were boosted by the Mercedes-Benz flagship S-Class which rose by 105.9 percent over August 2005 (2,427 v. 1,179 units)." [August]

"Highlights for the month include an increase in sales of the flagship S-Class which rose by 126.4 percent over September 2005 (2,357 v. 1,041 units)" [September]

"Sales of the newest generation S-Class were nearly double this month over last November (2,780 vs. 1,400)" [November]

Audi did not present the A8 monthly sales data individually in any of the press releases that I located. The BMW data was not readily available to the general public (or I simply failed to locate it - it seems as though you have to register for the BMW Press Club to get this data).

tagman

Curious. was this data month to month?

Didn't the LS have minimum sales last month due to the transition, and weren't we supposed to expect inflated numbers for this month due to that?

I remember ljflx suggesting something like that, and he would be the guy to know.

TagMan

jcoby

The sales comparisons for the monthly data are year-over-year. Lexus LS sales for November 2006 increased by 116.3% compared to November 2005 and Mercedes S-Class sales for November 2006 increased by nearly 100% compared to November 2005.

syswei

jcoby,

I usually go to theautochannel.com for this sort of data, though the same releases could probably be found on prnewswire or businesswire.

car........11/06...06YTD...11/05...05YTD

7 Series 1,209 16,222 1,623 15,989

A8......... 362 4,606 422 4,873

The trends are perfectly understandable given the competitive situation and where the 7 is in its lifecycle, imho.

tagman

Specifically for Mercedes, here's another perspective...

In November, Mercedes-Benz USA (MBUSA) achieved its third-highest sales month in 42 years of doing business in the U.S. with 22,079 units sold for the month, a 20.8 percent increase over last November’s 18,284 units. This is the tenth consecutive month that MBUSA has posted record-breaking sales and marks the company’s best November on record.

TagMan

drfill

That I predict the LS will clear 40k units for 2007, I'd say 3500 a month from now on would be normal LS business for Year 1.

And 2500 for the S-Class could be consistent, if the LS doesn't affect it's sales.

So 30k for the S550, and 40k for the LS.

Since sales of the 7 have been pretty stable for the last two years, 2007 will show if the LS does steal share from BMW. :surprise:

I don't expect more than a 10% drop.

DrFill

tagman

2007 will show if the LS does steal share from BMW.

And if that should happen, you will send me a special post, right?

TagMan

tagman

When it came to sales data, lj almost came up with an interesting point or two that most of us could appreciate. I sure wish he were here giving us his opinions on these figures, even if he is a diehard Lexus fan.

TagMan

dewey

BREAKING AND CRITICALLY IMPORTANT NEWS

Celeb's curves inspired new Jaguar
01/12/2006 09:40

There's something to be said about a beautiful woman's body. Stare at it too long and you're likely to become a not much more than a drooling, glazed eyed idiot, but Jaguar chief designer Ian Callum has managed to find his inspiration for the new Jaguar XK in actress Kate Winslet shapely form.

The curvaceous 'Finding Neverland' star was pleased to hear that she was the muse behind the sportcar's design.

According to Ananova.com, "She told talk show host Jay Leno that Callum had, "decided that I, for whatever reason, was his ideal woman. So I guess he was inspired by the shape of my body, which is kind of flattering".

KATE WINSLET'S CURVES

dewey

OAC it is good to see your name again.

We've had some very engaging disputes before. In fact they were so engaging that our good host Pat deleted most of our disputes in the HELM and IS forums.

Welcome on board OAC.

anthonyp

Well the Jag is a beautiful car, but I was a bit let down. that Kat wasn` shown Tony

tagman

Dewey, just for you -

Here is the complete list of Canadian sales results for the month of November. The overall market was up 2.7% compared to November 2005.

Winners (November 2006 vs. November 2005)
Acura - up 27.9% (down 5.6% YTD)
Audi - up 12.5% (up 13.3% YTD)
BMW - up 3.8% (up 11.1% YTD)
DaimlerChrysler - up 8.4% (down 0.1% YTD)
Ford - up 15.4% (up 8.4% YTD)
Honda - up 15.8% (up 7.9% YTD)
Hyundai - up 28.3% (up 8.1% YTD)
Infiniti - up 22.3% (down 13.5 YTD)
Kia - up 10.1% (up 6.4% YTD)
Land Rover - up 19.1% (up 25.7% YTD)
Lexus - up 0.1% (up 19.3% YTD)
Mazda - up 2.2% (up 3.9% YTD)
Mercedes-Benz - up 22.3% (up 24.8% YTD)
Nissan - up 25.2% (down 6.2% YTD)
Suzuki - up 54.4% (up 26.3% YTD)
Volkswagen - up 14.2% (up 10.2% YTD)

Losers (November 2006 vs. November 2005)
General Motors - down 13.7% (down 8.6% YTD)
Jaguar - down 34.0%% (down 23.2% YTD)
MINI - down 19.6% (down 5.6% YTD)
Mitsubishi - down 17.3% (up 8.1% YTD)
Porsche - down 5.9% (down 3.9% YTD)
Saab - down 9.5% (up 20.0% YTD)
Smart - down 78.9% (down 21.3% YTD)
Subaru - down 5.7% (up 1.2% YTD)
Toyota - down 2.4% (up 11.6% YTD)
Volvo - down 47.0% (down 14.6% YTD)



TagMan

esf

It's almost crunch time for the A8. We want to get our colors/options straight before we buy it in January (a.k.a. this month).

I was looking at this stunning W12...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Audi-A8_W0QQitemZ120018067258QQcmdZViewItem

(You can't see the top picture, but there's plenty of them closer to the bottom)

It really is beautiful and worth a peek. Some guy is selling it for $95K on eBay and I was tempted to make a bid on the spot. Of course, my right brain took over and told me not to click.

We already have THREE blue cars- my S4 Cabriolet is Sprint Blue, my A3 is Ocean Blue, and my son's Civic is some sort of blue. So, although the W12 that I posted was beautiful, North Blue Pearl Effect is off the list.

She wanted gold, because her RX is gold right now. I don't think so. I just don't think an A8, with the big grille and all, will look oh-so-fantastic in Platinum Beige. The A8 is a car meant for dark colors- but no black. So, I have a feeling Cambridge Green Pearl Effect is the best exterior color for us. Any suggestions?

Also, interior could've been Amaretto, which I love, but she wants an equally beautiful beige interior. The A8's interior looks unbelievable in so many colors, so I don't give a damn!

But, has anyone seen a dark green A8/A8L? If so, how did it look? Be honest, now...

Thanks!

'06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330

anthonyp

Colors are really subjective, so to each his own...On a practical side, my last car was dark and it was a pain to keep clean...Looked great for about a day, so you may want to keep that in mind.. I did see a dark green one at the dealership, and it looked fine--on the show room floor--I also think the interior colors were the darker tan, I personally don`t think you can beat the Audi interior...Tony

tagman

Be honest, now...

OK. If, and I mean IF you have concerns about resale value, then certain colors are slower to resell than others. If you are leasing, then your residual won't be based on color and color won't matter.

So...depending upon your situation the resale may or may not matter. I'm sure you realize that some colors are more popular than others, but I don't want to unfairly influence your preference. It shoud be yours and not ours, and not based on popularity, unless resale is extremely important.

If you are concerned, ask your Audi salesman (if you think he will level with you) about which colors move quickly and which ones are hard to sell.

I'll only give you one piece of the puzzle. I'll just let you know that silver is statistically the number one car color for a number of years now. The rest I will leave to you. It really should be your decision.

Good luck and congratulations on ordering such a fine car...which BTW, will look great in YOUR favorite color!

TagMan

lexusguy

We already have THREE blue cars- my S4 Cabriolet is Sprint Blue, my A3 is Ocean Blue, and my son's Civic is some sort of blue. So, although the W12 that I posted was beautiful, North Blue Pearl Effect is off the list.

Unfortunately, blue is one of the worst colors for resale. Awhile ago I asked the owner of a dealership for high end late model used cars about colors. He said they might accept a blue car for trade, but they wouldn't buy one. According to him, silver, black, and white are the best colors.

tagman

Unfortunately, blue is one of the worst colors for resale.

According to him, silver, black, and white are the best colors.

Yes, and shades of gray metallic have been on the upswing. Since Lexusguy has let the cat out of the bag, I'll post for you the most popular colors for the last three years, broken down into segments as well.

Here's a link you can use:

most popular car colors, 2003-2005

Now you are armed and dangerous!! Good luck.

TagMan

dewey

Tagman,

thanks for the Canadian sales stats. Overall there are similaties with the USA. MB and Lexus have the storngest sales YTD. BMW is doing better here in Canada than the USA because they recently introduced a BMW 323i.

What is interesting is that during November Lexus LS Canadian sales increased by 540 percent from last year. I am quite surprised when I hear forum members saying they have not seen a LS on the road yet. I have seen at least four new LS460s this past month. Despite the similarities between a Camry and LS SWB I can assure you the four cars I saw were not Camrys since they had a L logo.

dewey

Have you noticed that there is not a single HELC as defined in this forum among C & D Top 10 Best Cars? The BMW 3 series has consistently been picked among the top 10 since 1992

The Car and Driver 10 Best for 2007 are:

BMW 3-series
Chevrolet Corvette
Chrysler 300
Honda Accord
Honda Fit
Infiniti G35
Mazda MX-5
Mazda Mazdaspeed3
Porsche Boxster and Cayman
Volkswagen GTI

drfill

The Accord is still there, as it has fallen out of favor in sales. And the Camry has eclipsed it. Camry should get credit.

The GTI and Mazdaspeed are the same concept, so they should pick one or the other, Mazda 3 or VW GTI/Rabbit. I give the nod to the Mazda 3, as the sedan is easily best in class. The VW Rabbit is is slow and overweight.

Handling numbers of the Fit are downright scary! :surprise:

DrFill

tagman

Have you noticed that there is not a single HELC as defined in this forum among C & D Top 10 Best Cars?

The opportunity for that to happen is slim, due to C&D's price ceiling of $71,000.

TagMan

lexusguy

Im not shocked about the Accord. 10 best has always been more about what the editors would buy themselves, rather than comparison test winners. The Accord is still more refined than the Altima, and more fun than the Camry. I'm sure the all-new one will be on the list for '08.

I did find it interesting that no LPS made it this time though. I wonder if the next E class will make it. It will be quite a few years before the rest of the class is due for redesign.

houdini1

C&D is insane if they think people will buy this list as the Ten Best. Ten fun cars to drive, maybe, but nothing else.

designman

So what's your criteria? There are some good-selling cars on that list. As a Lexican you should be able to relate to that. That leaves... dum da dum dum... reliability?

houdini1

Nah, I would have had 3 or 4 Mercedes on the list, so I guess my criteria is dum da dum dum.....ancient history and snobbery?

blkhemi

since there was no HELC vehicle named to the 10Best cars, should there be a sub-category made specifically for these vehicles?

Now that the LS has different variants, it would be nice to have something like the "best premium large sedan of the year" award.

There are plenty to choose from:

S-Class- all variants
LS460- all variants
A8- all variants
7-Series- all variants
XJ- all variants
Q45
Quattroporte

And since all of these vehicles start at the $60k mark or higher, the domestics don't meet critiria, altho the DTS is a very competent sedan in it's own right, particularly with the Performance Pack.

And we'd have to omit the VW Phaeton as it's being discontinued.

Also, with the onslaught of luxury SUV's out on the streets now, we'd have to make an additional category as follows:

Caddy Escalade- all variants
MB GL450
Lexus LX470
Acura MDX
Audi Q7
Porsche Cayenne-all variants
LR Range Rover(maybe even Rover Sport)
Lincoln Navigator-all variants

With these utes' in the 50's, I feel it's only right that we give'em a category. They create just as much(or more in some cases) foot trafficin the showrooms as their automobile counterparts..

What do you fellas think about this?

lexusguy

Automobile covers the HELC category in their "all stars". C&D does cover premium SUVs in their "5 best trucks" list though. The Cadillac SRX has won the last few years.

blkhemi

Yeah, I guess to a point they cover the luxury SUV's.

Interesting that they give the Caddy the nod all of time yet the very model they had in a long term test suffer major woes. Turning the other cheek, eh?

But the SRX on the whole seems to be a pretty sturdy vehicle, judging from the solid satisfaction ratings.

dhamilton

Yeah, so much for all the big 3 homers with their "the media is against GM" conspiracy theory.

dewey

did find it interesting that no LPS made it this time though.

The overall LPS segment is shrinking in terms of volume and importance just like the upper middle class population is shrinking in North America.

With the higher degree of polarization of wealth in our two countries it is no surprise at all that both the econobox segment(Yaris, Fit, Versa) and the higher end luxury segment( S Class, LS LWB) are booming simultaneously. In fact the fastest demand growth are for ultra-exotic performance vehicles like Audi R8s, Lambos and Ferarris. A segment that caters to the exceptionally rich whose wealth happens to be growing the fastest among North Americans.

Walmart/Gap sales are disappointing while Tiffany and Saks sales are booming. Evidently the polarization that is evident in the automotive industry is also evident in the retail industry.

dewey

Congratulations ESF for your A8 decision.

You and your wife made the right decision about the car as you will make the right decision about the colour.

My suggestion is dont care about resale values or what others think about what colour is best. You already know what is best. Picking a colour based on expected resale values makes no sense. Have you noticed in Tagman's post that the most popular colour silver is declining in popularity while blue/gray is growing in popularity. Who knows by the time you sell the A8 silver will be an eyesore while blue may be most popular in terms of resale values?

drfill

You can easily make the case that a 2007 A8 would've won that C&D comparo, with the new 350HP engine.

But you'd also have to make the case that the LS460 is not as good as the LS430, which beat these vehicles before, which doesn't make sense.

I don't know anymore. :confuse:

DrFill

dewey

OK I will admit #21756 is not one of my better posts.

It is a lot of babble that cannot be substantiated. But the fact is the middle tier market for cars/autos is growing slowest while the lowest tier and higest tier are growing fastest.

Mistakenly my prior post includes LPS as middle tier. That is not the case at all and I apologize for that.

lexusguy

But the SRX on the whole seems to be a pretty sturdy vehicle, judging from the solid satisfaction ratings.

I dont think I would buy one after hearing about the shattering moonroof problem though. That kind of thing would make me leave a brand for good, Lexus included.

syswei

Lexus will launch a performance brand in late 2007 to compete with Mercedes' AMG and BMW's M divisions.

Lexus will start with an IS sedan equipped with a 425-hp, 5.0-liter V-8. The engine is a retuned version of the LS 600h L hybrid's engine, dealer sources said.

The sedan will be called the IS-F. It will debut at the Detroit auto show in January.

Lexus likely will carry that nomenclature into other high-performance Lexus vehicles, a dealer said. He said a GS-F sedan and IS-F coupe likely will follow.

The IS-F - "F" as in "fast" - will go on sale in December 2007 and sticker in the low $50,000 range, sources said. Lexus told dealers of the plans at a recent national meeting.

Toyota Motor Co. filed for a trademark for "IS-F" on Nov. 8 with the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office. It also filed for a trademark for a stylized "F" logo on Oct. 9.

A dealer source said Yamaha is tuning the IS-F engine's heads for more power. Brembo will be the brake supplier.

source Automotive News