High End Luxury Cars

hpowders

I only wish BMW would get out of the SUV business.
None of those beasts do justice to the proud "Ultimate Driving Machine" motto.

lexusguy

It is either that or some type of R-Class competitor, which I doubt.

Their RFK R-class fighter is supposed to be something else. I wonder if, after the market reception to the R-class, BMW will cancel that entirely.

lexusguy

None of those beasts do justice to the proud "Ultimate Driving Machine" motto.

I think the only SUV that could really be called an "ultimate driving machine" would be if the M division were allowed to go to town with the X3.

designman

On the subject of the X3 I notice you've come over to the dark side recently. Perhaps no one else on this thread realizes it. I think you should make a formal announcement here. ;-)

hpowders

I've driven those BMW SUV's. You feel every road imperfection. Very jolting. Instead of the X3, folks should go with a 3-series wagon. That would be the intelligent choice, but I know, it's conservative and nerdy-looking.

The X3 has a cheap interior. The X5 has a high-end interior with the nicest BMW wood, but you also feel every bump. Bad on the sciatica.

Hey BMW. Give us more twin-turbo and diesel CARS!!!

At the airport yesterday, I had a choice of 4 parking spaces-each between 2 skyscrapers. Doesn't anybody drive cars anymore?
Has the world gone mad?

brightness04

I have been away for a while. The "break-even point" was measured in regard to the cost per mile:

If a car is leased with a capitalization of 92% of MSRP, with a 27-mo residual of 74%, then the leaser is paying (92-74=) 18% MSRP for 27mo/27kmiles. Assuming no interest subsidy at all. That is 1.5mo(1.5kmiles) for every 1% of MSRP in car payment. To reach that cost per month and per mile, someone who actually bought the car at 92% of MSRP has to keep the car for at least (92 * 1.5) = 138k miles! That's assuming the enjoyment of every mile is the same; i.e. the car is no looser for the 138,000th mile than the first mile. That's obviously not the case. There is no free warranty and wear item coverage after the first 50k miles.

As to your argument about buying lease returns. Well, like I said, used cars are a different merchandise. There are significant reliability issues and cost of maintenance after the first 50k miles. Just for the sake of argument, let's take a look at the numbers. If a person is to drop the car after 100k miles, there are 73k miles remaining between 27k mile lease end and the 100k mile end of meaningful service life. Even assuming all miles are equal among those 100k miles (which they obviously are not; new car miles are more enjoyable and have maintenance covered, unlike old car miles after the first 50k), how much should you pay for the remaining 73k, at most, given that a new car can be had for 27k miles at 18% MSRP? Using the same 1.5k miles per 1% of MSRP, that translates to no more than (73k / 1.5) = 48% So you should not pay more than 48% of MSRP for the car when it is a lease return after 27k miles. How many Certified Preowned BMW's with 27k miles are priced below 48% of its original MSRP?

Between these two sale events, if carried out rationally, 18% + 48% = 66%; that's how much BMW should really be collecting for the life-time value of the car, at most, given that it's willing to give away the prime cut first 27k miles for 18% of MSRP. Goes to show you how ludicrous the MSRP is, and why leasing is essential if you want to get past that 30+% BS.

brightness04

Remember the incident when C&D test drove a BMW 3 series, its DSC went on a fritz and nearly flipped the car? That was a production car! Was that car representative of BMW 3 series? Shall we then derive from that particular car that all 3 series go into flip mode when called on to do emergency braking?

Pre-production models simply have even higher probability of exhibiting one-in-a-kind malfunctions than production models.

hpowders

I guess I missed that one. I do remember CR testing an early X5 and declaring it unsafe because it came dangerously close to tipping over in their accident-avoiding maneuvers.

If I read that C&D nearly flipped a 3-Series, I would eliminate the 3-Series from my list. I would not get defensive and look for excuses against the C&D's testers.

brightness04

Here's the link:

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/10391/2006-bmw-330i.html

C&D not only excused the E90 330i, they used braking numbers from a previous test under entirely different circumstances and then gave it First Place in the comparo despite the obvious disqualification event.

BTW, I agree with your hypothetical response. That's why I have a hard time putting BMW's and MB's on my shopping list despite their relatively low cost of acquisition.

lexusguy

I've driven those BMW SUV's. You feel every road imperfection. Very jolting. Instead of the X3, folks should go with a 3-series wagon. That would be the intelligent choice, but I know, it's conservative and nerdy-looking.

The X3 has a cheap interior. The X5 has a high-end interior with the nicest BMW wood, but you also feel every bump. Bad on the sciatica.

Maybe with the sport package, but the standard X3 with 17" wheels has excellent ride quality. The interior is much improved in the new '07s. Its certainly better than the RDX and Land Rover LR2.

hpowders

No. I have not driven the 2007 X3. I still don't see what the function of the X3 or RDX is supposed to be. The storage and passenger space is pretty limited.

If I was going for an SUV (which I hope I never do), I would probably go for the MDX with sport package. At least it has 84 cu ft of storage space with halfway decent
handling and about 19 mpg. Finally saw one on the Interstate yesterday. According to Einstein, that vehicle should have been converted into pure energy at the driver's incredible speed! Had me intrigued since I was doing a safe 85 mph and he/she left me in the dust!

The Audi Q7 that you mentioned gets dismal mpg (only about 15) and has only 72 cu ft of storage space which is dismal in its class.
However, its interior is gorgeous and I can definitely see one getting envious stares driving it.

My neighbor just got a black MB R500. Looks just like a high-class hearse. I have to restrain myself from saying, "Sorry. Who died?" every time I bike past his house, me with the big mouth and all. LOL!

hpowders

I must be missing something. From this C&D link, the BMW came in first place in this comparo. Whoops! I must put it back on my list!

Seriously though, I don't think you can make a case for the auto mags being pro-BMW. Many of them have been choosing the Infiniti M over the 5 Series ad nauseum for about a year now.

lexusguy

No. I have not driven the 2007 X3. I still don't see what the function of the X3 or RDX is supposed to be. The storage and passenger space is pretty limited.

The X3 is within half an inch of the RX300 in terms of overall length and passenger space. I think cargo space is two or three cubes smaller. 180" is a compact SUV now. Thats all we need.

hpowders

I still don't know why so many folks are driving these beasts: Poor mpg, too many blindspots,etc; I find the prospect of needing a rear-view camera disturbing.

But to each his/her own. Just hope my 5'er never gets hit by one. A mangled Bangle won't be a pretty sight. :surprise:

dewey

Well, I haven't read any complaints about the new diesels in the europress,

If I lived in Europe I would buy a diesel over any other drivetrain. Government subsidized diesel fuel and non-urea requirements makes diesels a tempting purchase in Europe. Unfoturnately that is not the case here in North America.

dewey

I only wish BMW would get out of the SUV business.

In that case BMW would not be an independent company. BMW is independent today because of its SUVs, LWB luxury boats (7series and Rolls Royce), a soon to be minivan (ofcourse BMW will call it another name) and a soon to be coupe SUV X6, MINIs and boulevard cruisers (BMW 6 series).

I dont like any of the cars above except the MINI John Cooper Works. But fortunately for BMW not all customers are like you and me. Even Porsche cant survive independently with a narrow product-line.

dewey

H.L. Mencken said it best: "No one ever went broke underestimating the taste of the American public."

Getting rich on bad taste knows no borders in the auto industry. And thanks to globalization it will only get worse. In every continent except Antarctica you will find cars with such tasteless features as self park, idrive, over-priced fuel-inefficent hybrids, VDIM, rear seat Shiatsu massagers, lane departure warning systems, adaptive cruise controls, active steering, manumatics..... :sick:

dewey

A nasty BMW ad in Spain:

Scaredey Cat

lexusguy

Scaredey Cat

Haha, talk about kicking Jag when they're down. While funny, I'm not sure why BMW even bothered with this. Mercedes and Audi are fierce competitors in Europe. Jag isn't.

hpowders

Those BMW headlights can be scary. I will never, ever go into my garage at night.... alone. :surprise:

houdini1

Thanks for the link Brightness. These 3 series are much to dangerous to be out on the road. Not only to the occupants but to other drivers as well.

Please, I would caution anyone who is considering a BMW, and especially a 3 series to read this article and then opt for a safer vehicle. Maybe a Hyundai or Suzuki would be a good viable alternative. I hear they are safe and have giant footwells.

brightness04

Yeah, you are missing something. Someone else must have logged in under your user name and wrote this:

"If I read that C&D nearly flipped a 3-Series, I would eliminate the 3-Series from my list."

Read the C&D article linked above again. That's what making a 360 degree turn at 70mph involuntarily when the car is put into a braking test is like.

brightness04

Cars are getting bigger as usual. The outgoing RX is 14 cu.ft bigger than the new X3. Even the new RAV4 is a couple cu.ft bigger than the new X3. Benchmarking against old models from competitor is a sure way to lose.

Seriously though, I don't think you can make a case for the auto mags being pro-BMW. Many of them have been choosing the Infiniti M over the 5 Series ad nauseum for about a year now.

Rags want to promote competition, so they have something to write about down the road. They have a tendency to promote the smaller companies or companies with smaller overall sales. It happens again and again: Audi was practically revived out of the ashes by the mags in the early-1990's; BMW as the cheap man's alternative to MB in the 1980's; Accord as the alternative to domestics and Toyota in the 1980's; Mitsubishi SUV winning comparo just when the company was about to die, etc. etc.. They do not like the overall sales leader, for a good reason, I might add. No one wants to deal with monopsony when selling ad space.

hpowders

Thanks Tony! My dream ride is going down from the summit of Haleakala Crater in Maui-no peddling-all downhill (check the brakes!!) with Tagman meeting me at the bottom with a cup of fresh Kona coffee in his 911!

hpowders

So how come the BMW came in first in the comparo?
According to you it should have come in last or at the very least declared to be an unsafe vehicle. :confuse:

dhamilton

Well I'm here to do my due diligence as an Audi fan and brag about the S6's victory over the M5, and E63AMG.

I wonder what all the rear wheel drive fanatics are saying about the Audi being only a tenth of a second off the lap time of the M5. Or the fact that on the shorter figure 8 track, "the Audi beat it handily".

Merc, I thought at one point you were saying that the S6 should be cheaper than the the bimmer, and Benz because it got out performed? Maybe I got that wrong.

Anyway, Viva la Audi.

brightness04

So how come the BMW came in first in the comparo?

Editorial Bias writ large.

The malfunctioning car should have been disqualified, at the least. Since braking distance is a function of road surface condition and ambient temperature (and wind condition), using braking distance from a different test using a different car is travesty. If they want to insist on keeping the car in the comparo, it should have received "0" points for the braking test because it did not successfully execute the test. Interesting to note that they did not try the test again with the car either, probably no one dared :-)

brightness04

Rather ironic comment in the HELC forum. What is a HELC if it is not over-priced, fuel-inefficent and gizmo-ridden? Aside from Lexus which is able to boast reliability over all other brands (HELC and non-HELC), none of the other HELC brands and models have a leg to stand on in terms of best whatever trait, besides status and gizmo. One simply do not buy HELC for performance; smaller cars perform much better.

hpowders

"Editorial bias writ large."

What bias? Whenever BMW goes up against the Infiniti M, C&D picks the Infiniti.

You see what you want to see. No point in discussing this with you any further.

houdini1

I guess you would like some salt and pepper with those words? One of the better crawfish jobs I have seen. Heh, heh!!

Seriously, be very careful if you get into an emergency braking situation. This exact same thing happened to my FIL back around 1960 in a Corvair Monza. He was lucky to escape. Those Bimmers are somewhat unstable to begin with and if there is any kind of malfunction you could become a danger to yourself and others!

lexusguy

If the S6 is that good now, just imagine what will happen when the engine is finally pushed behind the front axle in the next version. That should keep the AMG and M guys up at night.

cdnpinhead

This is a very helpful post. Thank you.

I actually drive cars in excess of 138K miles, but share your opinion that the last mile isn't nearly so enjoyable as the first one.

Thanks again.

cdnpinhead

Excellent! We're 9 items into the list.

Might I add SUV's for people who don't drive on dirt roads weekly or pull trailers, nav systems at $2K for people who could buy a stand-alone for 15% of the cost, among others.

However, it all keeps the economy humming. What's not to like?

brightness04

What bias?

The question was answered in the same post before you asked, namely:

The malfunctioning car should have been disqualified, at the least. Since braking distance is a function of road surface condition and ambient temperature (and wind condition), using braking distance from a different test using a different car is travesty. If they want to insist on keeping the car in the comparo, it should have received "0" points for the braking test because it did not successfully execute the test. Interesting to note that they did not try the test again with the car either, probably no one dared.

Read next time.

Whenever BMW goes up against the Infiniti M, C&D picks the Infiniti.

Is Infiniti M made by Lexus? As explained before, the reviewers tend to bias towards to smaller players against the sales volume leader (on a brand basis). They have a vested interest in keeping the industry competitive, even aside from their personal biases.

merc1

Merc, I thought at one point you were saying that the S6 should be cheaper than the the bimmer, and Benz because it got out performed? Maybe I got that wrong.

Yep that is exactly what I said. Interesting comparos, haven't seen the MT one yet. The S6 might handle as well as the others, but its overall performance is still lacking. It doesn't have a prayer of keeping a M5 or E63 in sight once the road opens up so yeah it should costs less. I haven't seen the MT comparo yet, but I have seen the C&D one.

M

lexusguy

nav systems at $2K for people who could buy a stand-alone for 15% of the cost

My wife and I have NAV in all of our cars, and I also have a little Garmin unit. The Garmin is wonderful for rental cars (that's why I bought it) but its no match for a system built into the car.

The battery is only good for about 4hrs, and the little speaker is just barely enough. If you want to use the car speakers you need one with a FM transmitter built in, which are at least $800, so you're now up to 40% of the cost of factory unit. The FM transmitters are also useless in any area with loads of radio stations, like say, cities, for example.

Using FM or a cassette adapter (and who has a cassette player in their car anymore) also means no music while you wait for directions. Then there's the fact that in an accident, it becomes a projectile. Not such a bargain anymore, is it?

cdnpinhead

My batteries (4 AA's) are good for 24 hrs, but in the car I keep it plugged into the power point. You're right, when I use the same unit on my bicycle or walking around, I can only go one day continuously (without using the screen lighting). Oh well.

I can set up a trip on my laptop or desktop computer, including any number of stops & careful examination of the suggested route well before I execute it -- that'd be using a 17" screen, a mouse/touchpad & a keyboard for data entry, comfortably ensconced at my desk in my office, home or hotel room, not jabbing at a set of buttons on a dashboard. Then I make adjustments as I see fit & download the journey into the portable unit.

After my travel, usually on a daily basis, I can then upload my actual progress into my laptop & know exactly when I was where (or where I hell I actually ended up when I missed the turn it told me to make). For grins, I can have a look at the vertical profile. Having access to that day's journey (filed by the date), I can go back anytime and find things I may want to review later, particularly waypoints. The device beeps when I'm supposed to do something & does all the recalculation if I screw it up, just as the built-in units do. It doesn't talk to me though, which I consider a plus. It works fine in Europe too, though I did need to buy the separate mapset. It has served me well on numerous jet-lagged mid-morning left-hand side of the road drives from Gatwick to my hotel.

For this I paid under $300 (not including the European maps) and got what I consider superior functionality. Help me understand which hard-mounted GPS units allow me to set up a complex multi-day several thousand mile business trip on my desk computer, then download it for immediate use when I'm ready to drive away. Which ones allow me to upload waypoints, routes & exact timing for future reference after I've done the drive?

Not such a bargain anymore, is it?

Yes. Yes, it is.

lexusguy

The device beeps when I'm supposed to do something & does all the recalculation if I screw it up, just as the built-in units do. It doesn't talk to me though, which I consider a plus.

See to me, something that doesn't have a constant backlight is useless, and something that "beeps" at me is especially useless. In a city situation, I'm looking for street signs, building numbers, traffic and especially parking spaces. I don't want to have to look at the screen at all. I typically need to get from A to B. Entering the address on the Lexus system takes maybe a minute, if that. If I want to stop to eat, or need gas, I hit a button on the way, after which I hit one more button to get me back on the way to B. I'm pretty sure some of the newest factory systems can be controlled entirely by voice command. I really hate having dangling power cords on the dash, and again, there's that whole accident\projectile thing. I'll pay a bit more not to have to worry about that.

Which of the portables have XM traffic support, can interrupt music to give directions, and handle bluetooth calls without requiring an ext. microphone?

dhamilton

Funny, that's what I would say about the Benz. Oh well, the Benz got first place in the C&D comparo, but I'm starting to look at their evaluations as somewhat suspect. Not just because the Audi was second, but because they didn't really have #'s other than acceleration for evaluation.

To pay 74k, and get a car that you won't see 5 times in the River oaks suburb of Houston, I'll take the one from Ingolstdt. The curves come up at some point.

merc1

Funny, that's what I would say about the Benz. Oh well, the Benz got first place in the C&D comparo, but I'm starting to look at their evaluations as somewhat suspect.

You too? That is a huge letdown if you're going to join that sorry bandwagon.

Not just because the Audi was second, but because they didn't really have #'s other than acceleration for evaluation.

Really? You obviously didn't read the C&D review at all. The only "numbers" the C&D review doesn't have is a MT "figure 8" and track times, every other measure of performance was presented. C&D does a lane-change test which is another way of measuring handling so in a way they've got at least 1 or the 2 extras from the MT review. You let me know when you're going to do some figure 8s, I want to see it.

To pay 74k, and get a car that you won't see 5 times in the River oaks suburb of Houston, I'll take the one from Ingolstdt. The curves come up at some point.

I have nothing against Audi, as a matter of fact their some of my favorite cars, you know this. However, please don't play up slow selling status as some type of exclusivity. It isn't. Audi would love to push more volume and I think we all know that. Yep the curves up at some point as do the straights and the difference between the handling (according to the C&D review at least, haven't read the MT one yet) isn't nearly as much as the difference between their acceleration.

M

maxhonda99

The most current issue of C&D has the BMW M5 of all things placing in 3rd place behind the Audi S6(#2) and the MB E65(#1). This must only mean one thing, that the BMW is way inferior, time to sell that BMW!

dhamilton

Getting a car out on a track and seeing what it can do is different from a lane change test. If you can't see that, then I guess your like Mercedes who obviously can't see the need for handling.

A two second lap time difference vs a less than a second acceleration to 60. [motor trend] Once again if Car&Driver did a track test [and I'm a subscriber by the way] then we may know more. They and Edmunds are consistantly slower than everyone else in acceleration times.

I hate to break this to you but not everyone aspires to Mercedes sales or Lexus sales for that matter. Does Audi want more? Sure, but clearly not at the expense of dynamics which placate guys with money, and very little taste.

The point of the figure 8 is to show handling prowess, over raw power. Raw power is where the Benz shines, and on the track is where it doesn't. Let me know when you take a corner in that Benz.

If the test is uber luxury drag racers, then the Benz deserves respect. Engines are what they [AMG division] do best. However, I'm excited that for once, someone saw the Audi in it's best light.

I have no problem giving any one due credit. Lexus for luxury, and reliability, and Benz for Luxury, and speed. But you know good and hell well, that "sport' isn't their strong point

dhamilton

If your going to point out acceleration as the only critirea for being "all around" performance minded, then your starting to sound like the Lexus camp that does nothing but talk about reliability.

I repeat, it's the benz that's down on all around performance, and up on over priced.

dewey

A) If a car is leased with a capitalization of 92% of MSRP, with a 27-mo residual of 74%, then the leaser is paying (92-74=) 18% MSRP for 27mo/27kmiles.



IF is the key word. IF you can get such a lease on the car you want is the key question? Unfortunately that is not always the case. The lease deal you are mentioning above may not apply to the car that someone actually wants especially a hot selling car(as I found out when I bough my BMW 335i)

I find it kind of amusing to see how many forum members here gush about leases as if leasing is the shrewdest financial decision any individual can make. Before the gushing continues on and on and on please allow me to present some of the non-shrewd aspects of leasing.


1) Has anyone pondered what happens when a leased car is in a serious accident? The insurance company will certainly not compensate the lessee for the inflated residual value will they? Nope the poor lessee will end up coughing up the difference between the resale value and the inflated residual value. And that difference can be quite significant.

2)Are there any heavy drivers within this forum? Driving a leased car far beyond the lease terms is not going to be cheap. And who knows what future roads we will all travel. Maybe a lessee may end up traveling far more than he or she expects.

3) What if the lessee returns his car in a not so great condition (minor mishaps, sloppy kids--all the stuff that happens in reality) Will he walk away scot-free without paying an extra fee (and who knows what amount that will be). No way Jose.

4) What if a person likes keeping his car for long durations. I kept my BMW323i for 8 yeare, my wife kept her Audi 4000S for 14 years and we still own a 24 year old MB300D. Keeping these cars made a lot of financial sense especially since these three cars did not involve much maintenace/repair costs.

5) Lease deals may be wonderful for individuals who love having new cars every few years. But driving a new car every few years is in itself not a wise financial decision. It is a lifestyle decision.

6) A financially shrewd/wealthy car lessee is usually an oxymoron? Do you think that great value guy named Warren Buffet leased his new Cadillac? Financial leverage is far more effective with appreciating investments than with depreciating assets like cars. Even with inflated residuals.

7) Owning a car versus leasing one involves the freedom to do what you want with a car without any penalties from a lessor. Such a freedom is worth quite a lot IMO.

Goes to show you how ludicrous the MSRP is,

MSRPs are ludicrous? Apparently you never bought a hot selling car before. Ofcourse a buyer of cars with dealerlot cobwebs will find MSRPs irrelevant.

dewey

Well I'm here to do my due diligence as an Audi fan and brag about the S6's victory over the M5, and E63AMG.

LOL,

Editorial bias against poor BMW.

If I had a choice I would pick a manual RWD M5 over an S6 any day. AWD who needs AWD (unless you live in Greenland or in a mountainous snowy area). And what the hell is snow anyways? I haven't seen that stuff for ages and I live in Toronto. I hope Global Warming will allow my children to build a snowman at least once during their childhood. :sick:

May I please join you in your liberal agenda regarding the environment?

lexusguy

AWD who needs AWD (unless you live in Greenland or in a mountainous snowy area). And what the hell is snow anyways? I haven't seen that stuff for ages and I live in Toronto.

Does it ever rain in Toronto? If so, save the S6 race for a dry day, the M5 will lose in the wet.

dewey

Well during that very very rare instance when I am at a red light beside an S6 during a rainy day I will have to swallow my pride and forgo racing like a lunatic. That is definitly a small price to pay for driving a more tempting manual BMW M5.

hpowders

You are correct, dewey. Leasing is not a shrewd financial decision.
I have yet to discover what the shrewd financial decision is in obtaining a vehicle since one takes a big hit just driving it out of the showroom after you buy it and then one has to add in maintenance costs as the vehicle matures. Then when you do decide to unload it, you probably wind up trading it in at a rock bottom price.

For me, I would rather drive a new vehicle every 2 years into the future with no maintenance expenses. Next time around, twin-turbo or diesel and after that perhaps something even more exciting.

PS: I don't know how it works in Canada, but here our leases have gap insurance which covers us for the difference, so your point #1 doesn't apply here. As long as one leases with no money down, one has no financial liability at all if the car gets stolen or totalled.

PS': I have yet to pay any extra charges for mileage overages or for any bodywork needed on returning these vehicles. (My first leased vehicle was a 1967 Impala).
The only additional expense is returning the vehicles with acceptable tires. So for my 3 year leases, I have been buying a new set of tires after 2 years.

dhamilton

well I guess you guys haven't been reading the latest news on the manual M5, which has DSC that is undeafeatable. What a load of crap. BMW has lost their mind. I think they hired the Lexus legal team.

Lease VS purchase. I think from a financial perspective, acquiring a depreciating piece of equipment is no smart move. If you want to play smart Dewey, probably the smartest thing is to buy slightly used, and fairly inexpensive to begin with. You can't talk about smart financial decisions re cars, and then buy luxury brands.

I'll take the argument even further about all wheel drive. I propose that it's not only in the wet, when all wheel drive is a boon. Breaking on to corners when the front is loaded,
and the rear has less traction. 2 wheels driven good, 4 wheels driven, better.

hpowders

I have no interest in the M5. Can't see getting a track car for stop and go and interstate driving.
I guess dewey can use one on some abandoned former olympic tobogganing runs.

Funny post about the gal complaining that she is having trouble with her "newly purchased" 1990 7 Series over in the Luxury Lounge! :lemon:

I agree that if you see a car as "value", it is best to buy one that is slightly used and has already taken the big depreciation hit. Buying new is no smarter than leasing new.
Best to buy a used luxury vehicle from someone living in a retirement community. I see these vehicles all the time in driveways with "for sale" signs on them.