High End Luxury Cars

gteach26

Realistically, the LX seems more like a 2/3/2 seater, even though they say it can carry 8 passengers. Gotta have three tiny passengers in the back to make that happen, I think.

The Tahoe's, Yukon Denali's, and Escalade's of the world have the same third row set up where they don't fold flat.

Also, of course it's not fair to compare a 70K LX to a 35K Expedition -- different leagues. It's just that every time I splurge on a high-end truck or car I feel sorta guilty -- I could have bought a more "reasonable alternative" and used those extra funds for more charitable pursuits besides myself.

I wonder if anyone else in here feels the same twinge of guilt when plopping 60K plus on a HELC. Perhaps I just need a good therapist....

tagman

The Tahoe's, Yukon Denali's, and Escalade's of the world have the same third row set up where they don't fold flat.

The EX, or XL (Suburban) sized models don't need to fold flat. They essentially don't have to switch back and forth between third row and/or cargo space. They've got BOTH. I had a Denali XL for a while, until I just plain couldn't stand the unbelievable amount of service issues, and most of the time we kept all three rows of seats up and still had tons of cargo space.

When the more typical-sized SUV has to fold the third row to gain cargo area, it should at least be easy and functional, IMO.

The best SUV at a bargain price, IMO, is still the Honda Pilot. The best mid-priced SUV is the Acura MDX. The best high-end SUV at any price... well, that would create some debate here.... between Range Rover, Mercedes GL, Audi Q7, BMW X5, Escalade, and Lexus LX. My personal pick is the Range Rover for 5 passengers, and the Mercedes GL for 7 passengers. Somehow, as much as I love Porsche, I can't seem to warm up to the Cayenne.

TagMan

gteach26

Agree on the pilot... just not a very exciting suv. Ditto on the MDX -- nice vehicle inside and out -- feels a little cramped, though.

As far as the HELC-type SUV's -- I would lean towards the GL and LX. Wife's got the new ML (the GL's smaller sibling)and we love it. The Porsche SUV just looks strange to me. Land Rover -- that's a question mark. I've sat in them a couple of times and the interior seems a little flimsy. Anecdotal evidence around here suggests that it is not very reliable, either.

blkhemi

Looks like the gang is still at it.

Not going to elaborate on it at all.

I've been out of the country to do a "world tour", just back in time for the Masters.

What's up with DCX and the Kirk Kerkorian deal? Will it really happen? Will Kerkorian finally get to be the head honcho at a car company, as it would be much to the dissatifaction to the brass of GM as he continually threw money at them to raise his interest in the company, only to have himself shuttered again? And to boot, he still didn't get Wagoner fired.

And more to the point: Will this free up MB to explore more oppurtunities within the company? And will KK's $4-5bil be enough to suit Dr.K?

BTW, since the Chrysler news took up so much of the headlines, Ford is again on the prowl to unload Jaguar COMPLETELY, not in pieces. The are meeting with the private sector investors to complete a deal worth billions. Where this leaves the fabulous new concepts is unknown.

blkhemi

Tag, I agree with most of your choices.

But after a drive of the new Saturn OUTLOOK, I'm convinced that it has taken number one in it's class.

Sure it is weighty, but the smooth ride and competent handling makes up for that. But the others are good choices.

brightness04

IMHO, the Pilot/MDX twins are great on paper, and they have pulled a real magic hat trick in packing that much passenger and cargo space into that little vehicle length. The problem shows up on a test-drive: it drives like a ponderous truck with ladder frame. No idea why, and this is coming from someone, yours truley, who normally don't care much about handling. Otherwise, I would have picked up a Pilot or MDX three years ago before settling for the Highlander.

brightness04

Did anyone notice, the new LX is classified as midsize SUV now. Is that a typo? What's thereal size of this new beastie? I can't find any spec anywhere.

tagman

The problem shows up on a test-drive: it drives like a ponderous truck with ladder frame.

The Pilot and MDX do not drive anything alike, as you would have expected them to, perhaps. I know first hand. Last Christmas, I bought my wife a Pilot and it didn't last but a few weeks before I had to trade it in on the MDX which she has liked ever since. Not to say the Pilot was bad. It wasn't bad. It was pretty darned good in fact. But the Acura MDX is truly smoother and quieter and has all the latest bells and whistles... you know Bluetooth, voice-command navigation, DVD rear-entertainment, and auto-everything. They definately put more sound-deadening material in the Acura than in the Honda. The all new MDX is even better than the previous one. In fact, you should read the reviews. The "Super-Handling All-Wheel Drive", or whatever they call it, is supposedly nothing short of amazing. I want to try it for myself, because I remember one of the very first reviews said that "Driving the '08 MDX is as though the hand of God is holding the vehicle to the road". Now THAT is quite a testimonial for a good handling vehicle, my friend.

TagMan

drfill

I've got a serious problem!! :mad:

For the Mets to go to Atlanta, in their home opener, and just whup that A$# by 10 runs, people are booin', throwin' stuff on the field in anger, the worst beating in Franchise history for a Home Opener.....that ain't right!

That ain't right! :sick:

DrFill

brightness04

one of the very first reviews said that "Driving the '08 MDX is as though the hand of God is holding the vehicle to the road"

Call me cynical, but that's a classic cop-out line when the scribe has nothing good to say. "The hand of God" holds the vehicle to the road _via gravity_, just like it holds a UPS delivery truck to the road. It reminds me of the joke about the 2.8 MB V6, when it was introduced, was proclaimed the best V6 from MB . . . well, dah, it was the only V6 from MB at the time. While I have not tried the new MDX first-hand yet, the previous-generation MDX drove very "ponderously."

lexusguy

While I have not tried the new MDX first-hand yet, the previous-generation MDX drove very "ponderously."

Well if you buy any SUV for driving dynamics you're an idiot, but I still say the Infiniti FX is "the best of the worst" as it were, with perhaps the X5 as number two. The Cayenne didn't do anything for me, sure if you stuff enough V8 in the front its fast, but the Porsche of SUVs? If it didn't have all that off-road gear perhaps it could've been, but what on earth would Cayenne owners do if they couldn't take their babies rock crawling? It will be interesting to see if sales pick up post-refresh after they dropped off the face of the earth last year.

The RR is by far the most attractive full size lux-ute, but its also the one I'm least likely to buy. A friend had his out of commission sitting at the dealer for a month. No thanks.

syswei

Did anyone notice, the new LX is classified as midsize SUV now. Is that a typo? What's thereal size of this new beastie? I can't find any spec anywhere.

The LX570 is larger in every dimension than the 470...something like 4 inches longer, 1 inch wider, 1.5 taller. "Midsize" has to be somebody's mistake.

dewey

Well if you buy any SUV for driving dynamics you're an idiot

So who is the idiot that made up the acronym "SUV". Why should such an acronym include the initial "S' for sport then?
If I want a good heavy duty UV for some serious offroading I will stick to the durable trucks made by GM or Ford.

If I want luxury I will stick to one of those oversized bulbous sedans that are the topic of our forum here. If I want driving dynamics I will seek the sportiest car that will suit my practical needs.(in my case practicality excludes roadsters).

The Cayenne didn't do anything for me, sure if you stuff enough V8 in the front its fast, but the Porsche of SUVs?

Did nothing for me too not even a V8 version. IMO this vehicle is not worthy of a Porsche logo. A few decades ago a Porsche 928 was considered taboo by many fans. It amazes me how complacent Porsche fans are today with that monstorisity called the Cayenne?

lexusguy

So who is the genius that made up the acronym "SUV". Why should such an acronym include the initial "S' for sport then?

Good question, especially considering that beginnings of the SUV were the absolute least sporty of the genre. I suppose its no worse than GM calling their last gasps at the minivan market "crossover sport vans".

cdnpinhead

". . . that (sic) made up the acronym "SUV". Why should such an acronym include the initial "S' for sport . . ."

Because, since the suburbanites decided that minivans were evil & SUV's sent a more proper (macho, or the female equivalent) message, SUV's have been in favour. Sport, as opposed to Suburban (which is far, far (far) more accurate) was more palatable to the "keep up with the whomever" classes.

A few years ago, the "I Hate SUV's, Why Don't You" board, or some such, provided considerable entertainment here on Edmunds.

The nut of that discussion had to do with people who actually used four-wheel-drive and/or towing capability or high clearance, as opposed to poseurs and/or suburbanites who wanted a vehicle that sat somewhat higher and/or wanted to be perceived as something other than the drones that they most assuredly were.

AWD vehicles, like Audi or Subaru, which provide all the foul-weather advantages, were rarely part of the discussion. It had to do with mass and height, almost never with actual practical use of the vehicle. If AWD wasn't the issue, then room was, which led to the dreaded minivan.

Entertaining then, and entertaining now.

houdini1

Well, the old and the new LX is smaller than the Sequoia, Expedition, Yukon XL, or Suburban. So maybe Mid-size is the correct designation. It has always been very close in size to the Tahoe.

brightness04

No one really _need_ a car that is more sporty or more luxurious than a Civic or Accord. People want cars that are more sporty and more luxurious, even if most of the time it's just a car sitting in jammed traffic. That's plenty good enough reason to get a car that the person _wants_ instead what the person _needs_.

Subaru's were pretty small in cargo capacity until the Subaru SUV came around. Audi A4 wagons were tiny for the price they charged, and A6 for a long term were woefully underpowerd with the 2.8L trying to move a 4000lb car. Ground clearance is very important after heavy snow. Low riding AWD vehicles designed for "sportiness" is much more of a "want" than a "need" than AWD SUV's.

The truth of the matter is that cars used to be the height of today's cross-overs until GM pushed the longer-wider-lower design philosophy in the late 1950's, as an image thing. All those low-riding sportscars or sporty looking aspects of cars are products of "desire"/"want" not "need." It took 40 years for the detour to come back around to what are essentially the most versatile vehicles: a two-box crossover with seat bottom at the level of an average person's butt . . . the size and shape of the original station wagons of the 1920's through early 50's . . . in the lingo's of the 90's, it would have been called an "SUV," before the term cross-over came around. Frankly, those original station wagons were SUV's because they had ladder frames.

cdnpinhead

Fair enough.

I was railing against what appears to me to be yet another triumph of marketing over common sense. Yeah, I know -- what's new?

I maintain that either a minivan (some come with AWD) or a Subaru-type station wagon addresses the vast majority of the functions performed by today's SUV's. High clearance, towing anything that weighs over 2000 pounds, true 4WD w/ LSD &/or lockers -- sure, that's SUV territory.

houdini1

Yes, and you could also maintain that a Honda Civic or Toyota Corolla addresses the vast majority of our basic transportation needs. However, it appears that our relationships with our cars are just not that simple!

dewey

Here's a good front profile picture of the upcoming Audi RS8 during a Nürburgring test:



If you cant see the RS8 too well that is because it got burnt by a oil or gasoline leak.

Since this Audu RS8 was not owned by a Consumers' Report subscribler I think their positive CR ratings will remain intact for now.

link title

elias

Friday night post-red-sox-game, my cuz and I were SUV-ing next to the team owner John Henry - stopped in a traffic jam for a while.
So now we know that John Henry drives: a 2007 CL600.
n i c e .

drfill

Mercedes didn't widely release their sales numbers for March. Why?

Beside the S-Class taking a Lexus-induced tumble, it was a strong month!

http://prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/04-03-2007/00- 04559001&EDATE=

DrFill

lexusguy

Beside the S-Class taking a Lexus-induced tumble, it was a strong month!

It's amazing how the E-class always seems to maintain its sales, no matter how old it gets.

blkhemi

Hate or love it, the E-Class is definetely the mover and the shaker in this class. The GS, 5, M, and to a lesser extent the A6 can forget about it.

From the bargain basement 50k E350 all the way up to the pavement-rippling 90k E63, it has it all. It's still the only one with a diesel stateside also, which coincidentally boosted sales even higher.

But did you check the numbers for the G-Wagon? A 300%+ increase? Did I miss something? From 70 something vehicles to over 300 is no easy feat, especially something with the aerodynamics of a 2-story barn, a design as old as grandma, and price tag that gives heart flutters for fun. Good going.

BTW: How's the Jag? I haven't been able to drive the XKR for a while because of this crazy weather.

lexusguy

BTW: How's the Jag? I haven't been able to drive the XKR for a while because of this crazy weather.

Great. We've been having some problems with throttle lag on the X3 and its already been to the dealer twice (with no fix yet) for it, but the Jag has been absolutely perfect, and its still a blast to drive.

drfill

And is a studly ride.

But it also has as much to do with the C-Class being.......less than studly. It's kinda small and sickly. :sick:

The C-Class' loss is the E-Class' gain.

DrFill

lexusguy

But it also has as much to do with the C-Class being.......less than studly. It's kinda small and sickly.

That, and I still think the interior seems cheap compared to the 3 series and A4.

tagman

That, and I still think the interior seems cheap compared to the 3 series and A4.

However, you posted the pic of the "sport" interior, as opposed to the new "luxury" interior which will also boast real wood trim, and an optional panoramic glass roof. Verdict is not out yet. And... the Doc's concern about the C's diminuitive size and power might be answered by the '08's increased room and increased power. I heard a monster AMG version (M3 competitor?) is quite possibly in the works, as well as a diesel version that might boast 43+ mpg.

The E-Class has always had my highest respect, as you might recall I had even attempted without success to include it in the HELC forum... a little over-reaching on my part, but it certainly showed my respect for the E-Class.

I think the S-Class sales were naturally down last month because the figures are in comparison to last year's bloated numbers... all due to the fact that the S-class had just been released and sold in larger-than-normal numbers. It is just now finally settling down to earth, not all entirely due to the Lexus, as Doc would have us believe.

TagMan

drfill

Maybe.

The S-Class is obviously a huge success. And now it's the LS' turn to experience HUGE sales.

I personally don't think the LS' sales increase, and S-Class decrease is a coincidence. The LS is a significant factor.

I could be wrong. Though that's never happened before.....

DrFill

tagman

I personally don't think the LS' sales increase, and S-Class decrease is a coincidence. The LS is a significant factor.

Absolutely, it is a factor.

I just wanted to point out that the YTY comps will be skewed by the fact that about a year ago the S-Class was introduced and the sales numbers in the beginning were typically quite bloated, and that they started to normalize by the following year (this Spring), which then shows an expected percentage decline from a YTY perspective.

But, I have no doubt that the LS will continue to take market share which otherwise might have gone to Mercedes, or BMW, or even some to Audi for that matter.

TagMan

tagman

Here's some info about the next 7-series. If true, technology is really being put to use like never before.

But... BMW is a "driver's" car, right? So, who needs self-park in a "driver's" car? I guess a good handling car can be luxurious afterall!!!

Here's the link: (but consider the source)

link title

TagMan

lexusguy

Here's some info about the next 7-series. If true, technology is really being put to use like never before.

The key will be to make sure that technology actually works this time. Speaking of key, will BMW finally no longer force you to use the idiotic key-slot in the dash?

ms09

U really think all bmw's r drivers (chauffeur) cars?

tagman

U really think all bmw's r drivers (chauffeur) cars?

BMW, a chauffeur's car? Are you joking??!!

I would never post that BMWs are for chauffeurs, if that is what you are suggesting. Yikes.

I highly doubt that someone would rather sit in the back seat of a BMW and be driven by a chauffeur, if that's what you mean. I believe that they would rather drive such a car.

If you need further clarification of the meaning of a driver's car, let me explain as an example that a Porsche is also a "driver's" car... meaning a car that has noteably good or exceptional driving dynamics and is known to be fun to drive. BMW's are better known for their better-than-typical driving dynamics, and exceptional performance.

Hope that helps.

TagMan

pat

Sometimes looking at posting history is enlightening.

houdini1

Could you explain that again please?

drfill

The RX400h has been successful, but the power has been nullified when the 350 came out. And the GS and LS aren't going to move the Earth anytime soon, based on what we've seen.

People WANT and EXPECT a tangible advantage in economy when using a Hybrid. Lexus wants to stretch the soup, but Honda found out as well, power isn't it's calling card.

Neither the LS or GS are both faster and more efficient. I don't see how other tests will change the facts that the 600h weight and AWD ruin the Hybrid's ability to enhance the car.

I feel really good about the LF-A, doh. That car is downright beautiful in person, if it continues along the lines I've seen.

DrFill

tagman

Good post, Doc.
TagMan

brightness04

Doc, you took my words right out of my mouth :-)

On a second thought however, I can't help realizing that Lexus is becoming a victim of its own earlier marketting success with the economy hybrids. If we think about it, the V12 HELC's are not exactly quicker than their V8 brethrens. The quickest HELC's are the turbo V8's. The economy of the V12's are certainly worse than their V8 stablemates. How to sell that point, however, is a tough marketting challenge.

drfill

Oddly, Toyota has a wonderful history with the turbocharger, with Toyota Supra, MR2, and Celice All-Trac, and the Germans seem eager to bring Sexy back, if you will.

If I were "In House", I'd offer for Toyota to also go old school, and use Turbos for HP, and Hybrids for economy only. A Hybrid isn't going to help 4500 lb sedans without sacrificing something.

At these prices, you lose the ability to sacrifice.

Lexus isn't perfect. But the pursuit continues!

DrFill

tagman

Doc, you hit on one of the reasons I encouraged Ljflx to forget about that LS600hL, and get the LS460L. I was so glad when he did that. A review of posting history verifies that entire exchange.

And now we have cyclone4 about to spend big bucks on the LS600hL. He's already listed his reasons, and while I hardly see the merit of such a decision, I can't argue with his personal preferences... to each his own.

Turbos and superchargers are reasonable ways to add power. Hybrids may offer power, but at a self-defeating price and penalty. I think hybrids should be used to save fuel, whether married to a gas ICE or married to a diesel or even married to a turbo-diesel.

Next year's diesels will prove to be the real headlines, anyway.

TagMan

brightness04

I agree that LS460L makes for a better deal LS600HL, for me personally, but hey I'm a cheap skate as usual :-) 2000 others may find the exclusivity of LS600HL appealing.

21mpg is not all that bad. It translates to 570 gallons in 12k miles. A V12 AWD car like A8 would probably use 1000 gallons (12mpg) in the same 12k big city/jammed traffic driving that those cars are typically found in. Thats 430 gallon difference if the owner is into that kind of greeness. In order to extract 430 gallon more out of the annual gas budget of an LS600HL, one would have to find a car that delivers 85mpg! In other words, LS600HL stands as the midway point between the typical gas guzzling AWD V12 and an 85mpg tricycle in terms of gas consumption! Shoot, Lexus needs to pay me to pound that line of marketting . . . and I'm not even a marketting major. LOL

To be honest, I'm somewhat puzzled at why Lexus keeps doing that indrect HSD thing instead of driving the front wheels directly with electric motors. That would save 300lbs out of the Torsen AWD system right there. Besides, wouldn't the DSC sensors then be able to control the individual motor's speed and effectively implement super-handling while at it??

Glad you mentioned the hybrid+turbo. For years, I have wondered why nobody tried spinning up the turbo with electric power . . . talk about comletely eliminating turbo lag! When the car is at cruising speed, the turbo bypass valve can also redirect the exhaust to run a windmill/turbine generator to produce electricty that can run all the accessories and charge batteries/flywheels.

tagman

21mpg is not all that bad. It translates to 570 gallons in 12k miles.

Remember, next year hybrids won't rate as high.

Guess what? My wife's XJ Vanden Plas has an EPA rating of 18 / 27 ! The standard XJ gets 18 / 28 !

And the amazing thing is that huge Vanden Plas only weighs a little more than a 3-series, because of it's advanced aluminum bodywork.... so at that ultra low weight, the 300 HP is very quick. No hybrid, no diesel... just low weight.

So, weight is another part of the answer, IMO.

I also learned that low weight is very efficient with the recent Lotus Elise, at less than 1 ton.

TagMan

brightness04

Absolutely! Low weight helps. It helps handling too. OTOH, I'm not sure how many people are into lightweight HELC. Rolls and MB kinda inculcated consumers about what a burley tank HELC's ought to be.

drfill

As well as other Toyota Hybrids.

http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f12fe69/0

Future Toyota Hybrids. Where are they now. Where are they going. How can they get there. Prius. Camry. Lexus 450h and 600h. And beyond. Check it out! :shades:

DrFill

pat

A number of posts have been moved: hpowders, "Luxury Lounge" #939, 19 Apr 2007 6:15 pm.

Don't y'all get as tired of me asking you to keep this discussion topical as I get of saying it? :sick:

hpowders

Okay.

anthonyp

Pat, I for one appreciate your vigilance...I didn`t think I would `type` that, but after reading how the `Lounge` almost digressed into nothing---keep up the good work....Hpowders is one of my favorite posters--so I`m sorry you got him, but he can take it...Tony The proud owner of the A8----Where has Blkhemi gone too???

hpowders

Tony, you make me blush, my friend. Thank you for those very kind words.

You are simply one of the nicest people I have ever had the pleasure of interacting with.

Enjoy your beautiful A8, an example of German engineering at its very best!

pat

Howard's was the first of a long string of posts I moved. He certainly was not the only one off-topic, not by a long shot. And there are other posts still here that aren't on topic, but there's only so much time in a day.

I don't want anyone to read my "posts moved" message as having "gotten" Howard. (I "get" Howard offline when he needs getting. :shades: ) The link to the moved posts just happens to be his.

Does anyone have any comment on something resembling a topical vehicle?? :confuse: :P