High End Luxury Cars

gscoupe

Me no likey. The A8L is the most beautiful of the large luxury sedan right now, but the V12 version, sadly, will have that hideous grill. Big thumbs down.

oac

Syswei posted this link on CL and I thought you all should see it, if you haven't already.

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/?news/ae_news_story.php?id=45233

Looking more and more like reality. Maybe Lexus parting of ways (figuratively) with Toyota in Japan means they want to make a HUGE splash. Going after MB's vaunted AMG E55 and S600 with a 60mpg, 470hp, GS350 GT. and a 50mpg, 600hp, LS500. While on the other hand, going after BMW with the lithe IS350 GT putting close to 300hp to the wheel. Wow ! Cool stuff. I am salivating already.....

Is it too much too soon for Lexus, or can they pull these off somehow ?

pablo_l

I also find the new Audi grille criminally crude. It is an unbalanced element in a clinically clean and clear design. Looks alien. One has to wonder why Audi and BMW are willing to incur such silly risks out of the *perception* that people *may* *possibly* get bored *eventually*. The design departments obviously are mediocre in their core function, but excel as intra-company influencers.

ljflx

They're one of the most powerful companies in the world with a hoarde of cash. They can do anything they want right now.

But within the corporate confines I'm sure there are some execs that say why mess with the success we have had - look at the track record - let's stay conservative. There are others that probably say we need to attract more younger buyers - let's get aggressive in design and next gen cars and let's bury the MB/BMW crap discussed among the enthusiasts. The latter group will win for a few simple reasons. They've already proved they can build cars equal to or better than the Germans for less. Why would it be any different with tuned cars and sportier variants of the base cars. More importantly though they want to attract the 30's-40's crowd AGAIN and keep them until they reach into their 70's - AGAIN. Meanwhile they have the Scion models playing in the minor leagues to bait people from the get go. Then you have these next gen engines that will be the next big auto rave. Not a company I'd want to have to compete with - that's for sure. Do you realize that they have built that cash hoarde and had record earnings while they spent tons of cash on the hybrid development and capitalized so little of it giving them virtually no Balance Sheet risk? (Sorry I've been a CFO for the last 14 years so I get passionate about this stuff - much to Pablo's dismay).

I read on one of the news and views board that a host who loves to post - Mr. shiftright - thinks MB will pull away from Lexus in the next few years. I wouldn't bet a dime on that one. I'd bet plenty that Lexus sales take off in the US in the next few years and the company pulls pretty far ahead of either BMW or MB though. Personally I think MB will hold in there just fine (they just won't keep up with Lexus' growth) but I think BMW has some growing problems on their hands. The true problem for DCX is Chrysler - on a macro scale. If these new models don't work (and the risk is greater now with the loss of the planned cost sharing with Mitsubishi) then they may have to jettison it and forget the global market and retreat back to a boutique shop. In his heart of hearts - that what our friend merc1 wants and he may be right after all. MB will then go back to its storied past - sell less cars but they will be great ones with high profit per car - but Jurgen and future Daimler CEO's will never be kings of the auto world or be able to match the breadth and scope of Toyota and the giants. That's the dream they have today.

Audi grill - I haven't read a compliment about it anywhere. Why did they even think they had to make such a radical departure. People loved the Audi front ends. I'll also say I think the A8 is the best looking large sedan around. The S is gorgeous too but there is something special about the Audi design. It's timeless and muscular. The S is sportier but I don't think its a timeless design.

saugatak

Can't agree with you on that one ljfx.

Until Lexus can make a sporty ride as good as BMW, BMW will never lose the enthusiast driver to Lexus. Frankly, I think it'll be easier for BMW to fix its manufacturing woes than it will be for Lexus to develop sporty rides. BMW just has to stop being so idiotic with their designs and fix their manufacturing defect issues.

BMW is already on the road to recovery b/c they're booting Bangle upstairs and they just have to incorporate the Toyota manufacturing process.

BMW has driving enthusiasts from every level in their company and it shows in the ride. Hell, they don't even make their own automatic transmission, I think they buy it off of GM.

Toyota/Lexus on the other hand are the masters of manufacturing, they just happen to make cars, but it could be any type of product. To transition over from passionless but well made cars to designing cars that evoke passion, I just don't see it happening. It's too much of a change in the Toyota DNA.

I actually think it's MB that has more problems from Lexus than BMW. MB and Lexus are going for the same market luxury, non-sporty market so are more direct competitors. If MB could fix its problems they could hold Toyota off but their focus is too scattered between Chrysler, Benz and Mitsubishi.

It looks like Chrysler is shaping up and they've smartly decided to cut off Mitsubishi (real stupid of them to diworseify in this way, why take on the #4 [non-permissible content removed]. auto manufacturer that was getting beaten like a drum by powerhosues Toyota, Honda and Nissan). Now they gotta fix the problems at Benz.

ljflx

I don't think BMW is in trouble from Lexus. I don't even think they are in trouble right now. I think they have developing problems which can and probably will lead them into trouble. Given the Toyota juggernaut and the fact that Lexus set dead aim on MB - you actually have to give MB a lot of credit for withstanding it and re-inventing themselves. I think BMW will have far more problems from Acura and Infiniti than Lexus in the next few years.

The story of Lexus is easy to see. The big guy came into the little guys space and succeeded big time in the most important market. Usually that type of move fails - probably 9 out of 10 times. But they didn't this time. Once they are rooted they expand. That is what is going on right now.

I will disagree with you on Toyota making tuned or road gripping cars very well right off the bat. Why does anyone think this is so difficult? This is a derivative thing not an adjacent space type of thing - like say Microsoft making Xbox and competing with Sony. This is more like making a Corporate windows and a consumer windows operating system. The difficulty is in the marketing not in the car building. But that difficulty is a fraction of the marketing difficulty they had in 1990. Thinking Toyota can't do this is like thinking Boeing can only make consumer aircraft and not military or space air craft.

Bangle - I read that story also but I also read the guy who is taking his place is his protege and the actual lead designer of these funky designs. I don't think BMW is Bangle free. I think they may have gotten more Bangled. He now has responsibilty for the whole empire.

ljflx

I hadn't realized how ridiculous the New York law (the last one in the country) on leasing and associated liability is until I read a story this morning. But in simplified terms it invokes a principle called "vicarious liability". This term means the owner of the car has ultimate liability. How stupid and extreme can this be? In 1999 a guy ran over and severely injured his 15 year old daughter while she was sun bathing in the driveway. Certainly a tragedy. But then this went to court and the courts decided that Ford - the lessor of the car - would pay most of a $1mln claim! Is that absurd or what. This law was set up for the livery business but was never amended.

For those of you who may not know it - there is still a New York city law that says the only legal means of tranist allowed to park on a NYC street is a horse and buggy. Dates back to the 1800's. Whenever NYC gets into a bind they will have an immediate cash bailout readily available.

Heaven help us - who knows what other outdated and absurd laws are out there wherever we live.

By the way - many carmakers refuse to lease in NY now or have created legal ways - at the consumers expense - around this crazy law.

ljflx

From todays NY Times. It's not a pretty picture.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/24/business/worldbusiness/24daimle- - r.html

footie

"BMW is already on the road to recovery b/c they're booting Bangle upstairs and they just have to incorporate the Toyota manufacturing process."

If it were that easy, MB, BMW and everyone else would have

a) Already done it and 'fixed their quality problems'

b) Announced that it was in process and would be in place soon

We know that neither have or will happen.

The facts are that the TPS is very, very sophisticated, requires a total change in a companies' culture to adopt, and takes a great deal of investment, time, energy and committment.

MB doesn't have the money, BMW is too arrogant. Neither will be able to make a car as good as a Lexus in the next 10 years.

I think "BMW's driver's feel" thing, based on today's mechanical suspension systems, is pretty much something that Toyota/Nissan will duplicate with variable suspension systems that are electronically controlled. Toyota is very well coupled with GM and take advantage of the rheologic shock technology they developed that allows suspension setting to be change in milliseconds. Dial-a-ride is coming to a Lexus near you.

Imagine, getting a BMW ride in a Lexus. You get a great enthusiast ride, something that looks like the best of European styling, has incredibly low defects, is highly reliable, and costs 20 - 40% less than the 'old world' technology. Got a date with Momma and need to cool it, just flick back to Lex LS.

If you are interested in learning more about TPS, I can repost a few links.

oac

Well.... well.... Interesting read of the NYT article. Its all there in print, all I have been saying, which some MB fans have downplayed and castigate it based on a measly three month sales trend. Hmmmmm.... I spoke about TRENDS of MB and BMW declines, others said its not happening anytime soon. Trends are trends, they can be trailing or forward-leaning, but sometimes you cannot miss them. They stare you right in the face.

It is not just about reliability, the problems are many and multi-faceted

Anyone remember Barron's Bank ? May be telling to re-read what happened to that glorious banking institution...All came tumbling down because a few execs fell asleep at the wheels...

Like I always say, time shall tell.....

b4z

Haven't been here since the middle of March and just waded thru all the posts since then.
Some of the them have been just painful to read.

I have seen almost no mention of Cadillac, except for a recent post by merc1. I did want to add that Cadillac sold more luxury passenger vehicles than Mercedes did last year.

After reading the previous posts one would think that Lexus and Mercedes are the only 2 players in this segment.

In February I sold my '95 Lexus for $8700, taking a $1,000 loss in the process.

I took the Lexus registration to my local Cadillac dealer, got the $1,500 conquest cash and bought a Cadillac SRX.

To say that I like this vehicle more than my LS400 would be an understatement. More headroom, just as quick, better handling, automanual, very quiet for a wagon body(or any vehicle), etc. etc.

As nice as the Lexus was it was an old person's car. Soft and quiet. I am glad I bought it an got the Lexus fever out of my system, but this Caddy fits my needs and lifestyle perfectly.

I'll never put down a Lexus or their owner's, but I needed a vehicle with a little more character and feel than the Lexus offers.

The Caddy is far from perfect, it has some interior bits that could be nicer and I have had a new camshaft installed, but I am getting 17 mpg around town 20.5mpg at 80 mph and 24+mpg at 65 mph.

Overall a nice package that sold 2800 units in March, but still about $2K overpriced for what you get.
It does fit my needs better than the Lexus did, which is all that matters. I had regrets after buying the Lexus, I haven't had any with the SRX.

michael_mattox

Congradulations:

It is great to have a car you really like. We all have different tastes and wants and needs.

You were very smart to eat the $1000 rather then suffer in something you weren't really happy with. I have rented Deville's when I travel and like them a lot. I also have a 92 Allante that is still a great car (kind of expensive to keep up but I think it is Classic in it's looks.)

bwm4

I am considering buying a 2004 LS 430. Does anyone know if there will be any changes for the 2005? When will major body changes be made.
Thanks for your help

syswei

The consensus is that the next generation LS will be out for model year 2007. Imho there is an outside chance that we'll see it for MY2006. As the 2004 was a refresh, don't look for significant changes for 2005.

merc1

Same thing I see. Still talking about trends that haven't amounted to anything yet. Trends mean nothing until at least the first have of the year is over. Your view on what was happening wasn't even based on facts, just what you thought was going on sales wise. You only mentioned corporate matters after your sales theory collapsed. It is very easy to switch theories mid-stream.

footie,

"I think "BMW's driver's feel" thing, based on today's mechanical suspension systems, is pretty much something that Toyota/Nissan will duplicate with variable suspension systems that are electronically controlled.

This misses the essence of a BMW by a country mile. Plenty of car makers have already beaten BMW by the numbers, but not feel. Cars like the IS300 and G35 handle as good or better than competiting BMWs, depending on who you ask. Variable ride systems are already in place on certain Cadillacs and Mercedes, and neither of them feel like a BMW. The raw mechanical feel of say a 3, 5 or any M-Series BMW hasn't been duplicated and it surely won't be duplicated by some vario system, such systems usually prove to feel even more artificial. Have you ever driven a 330i or M3? The only way to duplicate this "feel" is to do a clean-sheet design with the a from-the-ground-up intent of beating BMW at their own game. Just like it's in Toyota's DNA to make a quality car, BMW goes for the same thing at the birth of a design. There is a little more behind a BMW than a mere suspension tuning exercise. The next IS300 may be able to duplicate this, if they've studied the current 3-Series hard enough. The G35 comes close too.

You already have several cars that are pretty good at the ride/handling tradeoff. To get a car to handle like a 3-Series with the ride of an LS430 will be the stuff of dreams for quite few years to come I suspect. The two types are just too far apart to incorporate into one cohesive package. Such a car would be a mess of a vehicle and would feel way too artificial to make the BMW grade. Ride and handling will always be a compromise until something space age happens.

M

merc1

Good points, but I think they've tasted too much sales success to go back to the old way of building cars. One MB rep told me a few years ago when the ML was being introduced at an auto show that Mercedes-Benz envisions a Benz of some time in every garage - urgh!

Some have suggested that they'll try to do both. You know keep the volume models, but make more exclusive variants of each. This seems to be what they're doing now, but I'm not so sure about that strategy. Sure a CL65 is great, but the plain-jane C320 needs more in common with such a car as far as build is concerned imo. Their gee-whiz models have long been at the top, it's the everyday cars that need the improvements to me. I mean really who has cars like the CL, SL, SLR and S-Class AMG and V12 models all under one brand? Now lets concentrate on making the C, ML, and R-Classes right. I've long believed that the E-Class typifies the Mercedes-Benz experience, you know the quintessential Benz, that doesn't cost a whole lot.

Question - have you actually seen the new Audi grille design in person or are you going by the some of the press' reaction to it? I like it on the A8, but I haven't see the new A6 in person yet.

b4z,

I don't think anyone has mentioned Cadillac because they don't play in this area of the market, over 60K. They sold more luxury vehicles last year? You must mean that 40K cut-off stuff right? This is one of the most made up statistics I've ever seen, and it is done so for Cadillac or whatever brand is trying to measure itself. A 38K car isn't luxury, but a 40K one is? Come on now. Real luxury is 50K and up, in my most humble of opinions. You know cars that a lot can't afford.

M

merc1

A few questions. I've asked other Toyota fans this in other forums. Do you think Mercedes or BMW or even VW could incorporate TPS if they wanted too, besides what you think about their financial situation? I personally think BMW and especially Mercedes might make too many variants of every model to incorporate such a system. I mean Mercedes has anywhere from six to a dozen variants of one model, say like the C or E-Class, with lots of different engines and suspension tunes and equipment differences. Toyota doesn't make nearly as many versions of their cars giving them a built in quality advantage, imo.

I've seen Toyota's production model and it pretty lean for what MB and BMW do.

Not arguing here, just asking some genuine questions.

M

designman

I don't think anyone needs living proof of the new Audi grille that is supposed to be manifest across next generation platforms. The pix suffice and I agree that it's hideous. It evokes an impression that is similar to the Edsel's fish lips. Furthermore, the license plate is now morticed into it. This is akin to putting a picture frame around the living-room wall switches. Dumb. Real dumb IMO.

I was looking forward to your reaction to Saturday's New York Times article that ljflx cited. Must-reading for any DaimlerChrysler watcher. If anyone has good retorts to bad news about DC, it's you.

b4z

I paid 34K for my 38.6K MSRP SRX. So I guess it does not fit into the 40K cut off point.
I was referring to the 40K point for it to be considered a luxury car.

I guess 50K is the point for passenger cars, but probably not for SUV's. Escalade is over that point, but I would never pay that much for what is basically a Tahoe.

By the way have you seen the incredibly cheap looking carpeting they put into those things?
The hard plastic on top of the dashboard?
Maybe that is why I see them advertised for $9,000 off in the local paper.
I guess the 6,000 GVWR tax deduction is only useful to a small percentage of Escalade buyers?

I do think that with the new STS Cadillac will more of a player in the 60K segment.

I also don't think that price is the ultimate arbiter of whether it should be in a segement.

Obviously the 60K LS400 offers more "value" than a 70+K S class.

But the LS doesn't stir much passion.

merc1

Well it has been my experience that you are even harder on styling than I am so I kinda figured where you'd weigh in on Audi's new grille.

I couldn't read the article as it required me to register, which I didn't feel like doing at the time.

It's probably nothing I haven't heard before. I'm well aware of DCX's troubles. It will only get worse before it gets better. Not shelling out an additional 3.8 billion on Mitsu is a step in the right direction.

The only bad news I had any "retort" to was that based on false sales numbers.

b4z,

Well you know my stance on the Escalade. I think it is a total and utter rip-off for something to be so blatantly a Chevy product, but that is another for another room.

M

merc1

Call me biased, but I find the Audi grille better looking:



than this one:



One is a open mouth and the other just plain homely.

But in all fairness, this is flat-out uglee:





What the hell?

BMW should have looked no further than Aston-Martin to see how a convertible is supposed to look:



M

syswei

NYT registration is free and if I recall pretty easy.

syswei

The LS grill is nothing special. The A8's is certainly unique, but not in a good way imho.

ljflx

I've only seen the Audi grille in pix - just like you posted. I find it awful. The whole bottom part looks like a person in a yawn position. My mother would tell the car to "close your mouth". The old grille was/is so classy and good looking and perfectly sized compared to this thing - which looks so disproportionate to the cars as well.

Agree - the 6 series is ugly. It's no match for MB in design but it will sell initially. But I think that just like the 7 series the sales will fall off quickly after the first 12-15 months. By the way aren't the taillights a bit of an MB knockoff? Hadn't noticed that before.

I hope this is not a sign of future designs but -the Audi grille seems to have an open mouth and the BMW designs seem to have an open rear. What is going on here?

5 series - I saw one up close this weekend and maybe I can see a hint of why you may like it more than before. Problem is I looked back again when I was about 15 feet away and saw the ugly new BMW look again. This car and maybe all these Bangle designs may look better close-up than from a distance. I think that's because parts of them look good but when you look at the whole it looks a lot worse than the sum of its parts. Bangle and his crew have to stop thinking they are Monet because they can't seem to make their individual art pieces flow together.

I like the LS grille - particularly on the 2004.

Aston Martin is a knockout design.

b4z

Whatever happened to areodynamics?
Grilles were getting smaller and smaller in the name of fuel economy and now they are back to 1950's proportions.
Did the automakers discover some magic bullet?
or do buyers of these vehicles not care about gas mileage?
I have to say that the grille on the Audi is kind of interesting, and the grille on the 300C does not bother me as much as it's turret like greenhouse.

footie

IMHO, the Audi grill isn't very unique?

http://www.kia.com/amanti/amanti-photos.php

footie

Merc - You may be right that it will be hard to do. And I don't think that Lexus/Infiniti are likely to do that just to get the 'feel' thing right. But they might push the envelope with their electronics.

But let's think out of the box for a second. There may be more than one way to achieve the feel of any particular car - or a least come close enough so that the difference between the 'real thing' and the 'synth' version let you enjoy the approximate sensations of a variety of vehicles.

Besides the electronic suspension innovations coming from GM and others, the other source of technology is the theme park ride folks.

Ever been on a Motion Odyssey Ride, in an aircraft simulator, or in any one of the wonderful rides in Orlando where you think are really doing something that you aren't?

One of the ways to achieve closer feel is to move the driver's seat slightly in three dimensions as a vehicle experiences a certain set of dynamics. The VSC, etc. systems in most cars talked about here, have a great deal of information about what is going on dynamically from driver inputs, to yaw, roll rates, tire slippages etc. With the rheological shocks from GM you can also read the road surface under each wheel and adjust shock response in about a millisecond.

Then the car companies can take any given vehicle like a 330i over a variety of road conditions and situations, calibrate the overall feel experienced by the driver from g-forces, wheel feedback, apparent shock jounce, rebound, etc. and plug this into the 'synth' handling computer and have the car react both in close approximation handling wise and to amplify the effects on the driver via the seat. Oila! Dial a 330i, an S4, etc.

Our eyes are a big part of being fooled, but maybe the G-forces, road feel, some electronic seat maneuvering and some tweaked sound from the stereo might be enough to get us there.

Of course it's a wild idea.

oac

Here is one from DCX:



BTW, I like it.

Merc1:

So you didn't even read the NYT article before making your comment. Figures.... I'll wait until after you've read the article.

Here is the ending quote to this article:

"The whole of Daimler is creaking at the seams," said Graeme Maxton, an analyst at Autopolis, an industry consultant in London"

ljflx

I also like it and though it is massive it proportionately fits the car alot better than the Audi grille. Personally I think DCX should do well with the hemi. Car looks like a winner all around. The Audi grille above the license plate was all that was needed. That part is good looking. It's the below the plate part that ruins it and also disjoints it. The latter does not happen on the hemi.

gteach26

Just chiming in on the pics... personally, I think the '04 LS has the classiest design. IMO the Audi, Benz, Kia (!!!!), Chrysler, Jag, all look like a big mouth bass opening its chops to grab a meal. Isn't that big oval grill design becoming a little over used?

footie

Merc1

I don't know if the plethora of models poses a particular problem for MB adopting more of TPS. Most of the write ups that I read about Toyota talk about TPS providing them with production flexibility, lean manufacturing, high quality and rapid response to market conditions.

In Japan, cars in most major cities are sold by salesmen who come to your home (without a car). Unlike the U.S. where the dealerships and distributors set the locally available option mixes, in Japan, you order it, it gets built to order.

Toyota has been operating this way for over 10 years. Cars are ready for delivery 4 days after order.

Think about that. The real advantage of 'no inventory' is that you aren't stuck building a bunch of cars because you got parts for them. You actually build what customers want.

I agree that MB does seem to have a car-engine-for-market approach that drives their production environments. They sure have a bunch, particularly in Europe, where there are 8 different engines for the C-type which then comes as a coupe, sedan and wagon.

I would think that if MB wanted to be more profitable, and more responsible to demand, they'd embrace as much of TPS as they could. And I think that they are trying - at least in Alabama.

Delphi supplies MB with dashes from their factory which is located only 10 min from the MB plant. MB makes an ML every 2.5 minutes. Delphi builds a dash every 2.5 minutes. Delphi has between 1 and 2 hours notice on the particular mix of 90 some items that are factored into one dash design. A defective dash from Delphi can stop production at the MB plant.

The company cultural issue though is the one where Toyota emphasizes the 'learning organization' over everything else and is probably where MB struggles to get it right.

The learning organization depends on the workers in the production flow line to detect defects and resolve the problem that created it while the problem is fresh.

I was reading how MB runs the AMG factory at Affalterbach. "One engine, one engineer." "Highly automated process analysis system" tells me they don't get this part of the TPS equation quite yet.

Maybe this is as close as they can come without more market feedback about the benchmarks being set by others.

ljflx

I must say I don't get the MB/DCX strategy as regards Benz itself. To put a Benz in every garage is dilution of the brand and its image and is downright crazy. Commons sense biz strategy says they should have bought into Chrysler and Mitsubishi for parts sharing, technology costs spreading and platform sharing (as little as possible on the MB brand itself but nonetheless at least some) and finally in a financial sense for a natural global currency hedge. Those are the cars you want in every garage so that you have sub $25k cars to compete with Toyota and the like and the synergies between Chrys/Mitsu help you wring out costs and make higher incremental profit per car. Thus you keep MB in the elite elevated locale it deserves to be in. I think MB should never bring in a sub $25-30k car to the US. They've gone too close to the razors edge with the C as it is. So if you are going to do it anyway then why bother with Chrysler in the first place. I get the whole global idea and agree with it (even if it ends up failing I see the vision) but I lose it completely if they didn't intend to use those cheaper cars as a buffer to the expensive MB territory. That would be like Lexus competing with the cheaper Toyotas. Makes no sense.

blockislandguy

Johncalifornia wrote well earlier this month about avoiding parking lot scratches. He recomended parking next to a high end car on the driver's side. Made sense to me except for the driver's side. JohnCalifornia, wouldn't it be better to park on the passenger door side in the hopes that he didn't have one? Sure your OTHER side is still exposed but it is in your example also.

rgsw

I ordered a MB in Stuttgart, Germany in 1978 for delivery thru the Canadian Military Base Exchange. Vehicle was delivered when it was ready for factory pickup, 18 months later. Wonder how long one has to wait now when ordering through a German dealer? My guess is they were sending the majority of MB production overseas (export) to keep up a favorable balance of payments. You could get a MB in the USA from the dealer with no wait involved.

merc1

Call me crazy, but I just don't see how a person can find an Aston-Martin to be a knockout design and like the LS430's homely front end at the same time. The two are just as opposite as opposite can be.

The 5-Series has grown on me quite a bit, especially with the sport package and in certain colors, looks downright good to me. Still don't like the interior as much though.

footie - you do realize that Kia's newest car is THE biggest styling knockoff on the market today. There is a huge collection of Mercedes and Jaguar cues in that ugly thing. Audi's grille design was in place on their cars before there ever was a Kia. This is one of the points I try to stress on this board - tradition. Audi is only going back to it, while Kia is groping.

oac - all I can say at this point is that we're past that and you probably need to give it a rest. Like I stated before your whole spasm was based on incorrect sale numbers (assumptions). The only thing you posted from the article was hyperbole not anything factual, which is what you stood for all along. Is there honestly anything in that article that hasn't been said at Automotive News, Wards, AutoInsider, The Autochannel and others already? Really? I read the automotive news each and every night and it is well known that DCX is in trouble so please.

M

merc1

Intersting stuff. I'm really worried about the next ML and new R-Class if Mercedes doesn't do something radically different at the Bama plant. There is no where they're going to be able to sell the R-Class at the price they are aiming for if the quality isn't up to snuff.

Funny thing is that a lot of AMG Benz owners say their cars are built better and more reliable than the regular production models. At some point the big corporate plan has to yield to something unique, that would be where AMG comes in. They aren't going to produce AMG cars to make TPS feasible I don't think. The European carmakers aren't going to turn over their most exclusive models to a TPS like system, at least not while something like AMG is so limited in volume. For better or worse, handbuilding is the tradition there.

For the mass market models though I think they at least need to try it with an upcoming model and see if it is feasible. The Bama plant would be the perfect place to start I think.

I see what you're saying about the duplication of ride and handling characteristics, but it really isn't that easy with cars. BMW has spent years and years fine tunning what they do and even Mercedes-Benz hasn't been able to duplicate it with their C-Class. The G35 is about the closest thing to it out there right now.

Remember also that certain cars have already proven they can outhandle a competitive BMW, but arguably none of them have matched the overall package. Again I'll state based on my own experience the G35 comes very close.

M

merc1

Well that is what one man told me at an autoshow and you know what I think about hearsay stuff so....

I think they may be starting to see the light on that point. The A-Class isn't coming here as Mercedes-Benz. They're going to introduce Smart to America as a Mini or Scion type brand to market cheaper, Mercedes built, but not Mercedes badged vehicles.

I think exactly what you've just said has gotten through to Stuttgart. I've said all along no sub-30K cars. I personally didn't even want this:



to be sold here or created at all. A real little Coupe based on the C-Class with an actual trunk would have been neat, but not this thing.

M

merc1

I remember a while back you stated you'd get an SL one day, if MB's reliability improved. I think you should consider the CL also:



This is still Mercedes' best looking car imo. Easily the best looking 2-door Benz since I've been a fan of the brand, possibly the best looking Benz period since. (Sorry about the pics, I'm hooked on posting them now).

M

merc1

A point of clarification on AMG. The one engineer thing is only for the one guy that builds the engine for the AMG cars, not that the entire car is handbuilt. AMG have precious few things that are truly handbuilt compared to the regular production models, so the TPS system would do some good there also. Only the engine is a one man affair.

M

oac

Oh, I am done with you on DCX woes. It's your headache not mine. I sleep easy at night with no worries

About the most we hear from many of you MB fans lately is about the new styling of MBs (and conversely the poor styling of Lexus). Aestethic chest-thumping is, at best, a subjective thing. I think I'll go out and plunk my hard-earned $$$ on a CLXX because it's "the best looking Benz period", to quote you. Right on bro'. Are you sure you are not in MB's employment ?

OTOH, Lexus just does things well without the frills. A symbol of what a great auto company can be, if/when properly managed....What I, a Lexus fan, wants to see going forward are all three concepts: LF-X, LF-S and LF-C, which should encompass the new LS (v8 hybrid, 600hp), new IS (300bhp+ GT), the new GS (AWD in the 300, the 400bhp+ 350GT hybrid, and the 430), the HPX, and lastly the Giugliari-based Volta concept. The last two in very serious doubt to go into production, but maybe Toy will wake up and do the right thing afterall....

merc1

The Players are:

Mercedes-Benz:





BMW:





Audi (as of 2004 my pic for best styling by a mere hood ornament over the S-Class)







Lexus:


(not so bad here I guess)



Jaguar:





Volkswagen(gulp!), the people's luxury car:





Quite handsome to me.

There you have it, the high-end luxury class of 2004. Maserati Quattroporte to join in Sept.

M

merc1

"Oh, I am done with you on DCX woes. It's your headache not mine. I sleep easy at night with no worries "

I've been done with them and I've always slept easy at night. No headache here, I don't work for DCX either.

No chest thumping here either (did you actually read the post?). Just trying to lighten or move the board a little. Did I say that he should buy a CL because it was the best looking Benz? I said that if he is/was considering a SL he should give the CL a look, the styling part was one of my reasons (out of many) for liking the car. Styling was also one of the reasons ljflx listed for liking the SL. It would have helped if you knew the entire conversation between ljflx and I before saying anything.

Now if you want to talk about all that is heard from a certain group then I could go on for days about Lexus' fans endless harping about CR, JDP, NYT and any other non-car-enthusiast source. The most boring reading on this site.

Keep dreaming about a 600hp Lexus, isn't going to happen.

BTW, the LF-S is forever to be a concept car. The GS surely took what it could from it and turned out to be a dud imo.

M

b4z

I still say the '05 STS plays in this segment.
Even though it starts at 41K it can be optioned up to 62K in V8 AWD spec.

I understand that the Phaeton has marginal headroom. A coupe like 37.3" front and 36.8" rear.
Not good at all.

Saw a Audi A8 yesterday afternoon. Good looking car.

designman

Merc, I'll take the S55 over the CL. There are some moves you don't make with design. The reverse taper on the C column is one of them.

Can't let the chat go by without posting this from the New York Times article. I think DaimlerChrysler problems could be worse than anyone thought. And the "Benz in every garage" thinking is nothing short of megalomania. Is Schrempp one of those? Or did he innocently bite off more than he could chew?

"With Chrysler bleeding money in the United States, and Mercedes sputtering because of quality problems—a fact some critics attribute to the financial drain of its American sister—the pillars of the 1998 merger that created DaimlerChrysler are crumbling, one after the other."

merc1

62K is barely at the base price of the cars in this class. The STS is lacking in many other areas also compared to most cars in this group. The S-Class, 7-Series and A8 are priced much higher.

designman - The Benz in every garage was a statement made by a sales rep. Not anyone at DCX. That is the last time I post any salesman comments on this board..lol.

You don't like the CL's C pillar!!!! That is one of the most distinctive (gorgeous) elements of the car. Can't figure you out guy.

M

designman

Were DaimlerChrysler's spectacular global plans the thinking of a lone salesman?

You can't figure ME out? You're the one who switched tastes to the 5-series.

;-)

merc1

"You can't figure ME out? You're the one who switched tastes to the 5-series."

Good point, I'm still in shock about that one. I guess I spoke too soon when I first saw pictures of the car as opposed to the real thing. I still don't think it looks as good as say the E-Class, but it isn't the ugly duckling like the 7-Series is, imo.

M

ljflx

Function of what car you are looking for. If I'm looking for a sports car I like a racy look. Family lux sedan - I like the stately look. Pretty simple. I like the SL and SC for example and always liked the CCI. Never liked the NSX. Yes - I do like the CL very much. I like most MB designs though I think the E and C are too clonish. Even the C has grown on me, The two MB's I don;t like are the ML and the SLK. Sorry - add in the G class. I'll predominantly stay Lexus unless they go off course. It really is a wonderful experience but I also have no doubt I'll buy a sporty MB in the next few years and I also have no doubt MB will improve the quality in the next couple of years. I don't think they will ever get back to there earlier levels though. They can - but the cars would be priced too high.

b4z

I can live with the overall shape of the new 5 but do not understand the trunk cut line on the rear quarter.

Eyelids over front headlights should be axed.

Those changes could be made very easily.

Car only looks good in black because of those cut lines.

pat

About posting pictures, there are a couple of things folks need to keep in mind.

If there is any chance a picture might be copyrighted by any entity other than Edmunds.com, you should not use the img src tags to display it - you should post a link to it instead.

You can usually find a statement on any website that explains how you may or may not use its content - that's what you need to check.

The other thing is that we still have a large population who view our discussions over a dial-up connection. Posting large pictures and/or many pictures makes it nearly impossible for these folks to follow our conversation.

A reader has a choice whether to follow a link and wait for a picture to display, but doesn't have that same choice when going to a page that is displaying the pictures themselves instead of the links to them.

My point is that links to pictures are much more "community-friendly" in several ways than are the img src tags.

Thanks for your understanding - feel free to email me with any questions.

'Scuse the interruption and please carry on!