Pontiac Grand Prix - 2000-2005

ruski

I guess ES300 makes a bit more power under the hood than the Camry. Could that be the reason for tranny problems?

dindak

gunit : 3800 power is still very decent and you don't pay the extra insurance premium the guys with the mid 250hp drivers do. Anything much over 200 hp gets slapped with a little extra $$. I think a 3.6 variant will take over in a year or two.

johnclineii : I can see the rear head room in that 6 hatch being tight as will the back seat. If you want rear seat room so much, the 6 isn't the answer. Your Impala is a better choice.

Did a lot of driving this weekend up north and to Niagara Falls today. Saw 3 04 GPs along the way. Have a bit of a stiff neck tonight, nice looking cars.

gunit

dindak, I didn't say the 3800 doesn't have decent pwr, just that it is still the same 200hp since 1997 which was good then, but in 2003 has fallen below the competition. Max has gone from 190 to 265, where as the GT is still the same 200. It would be nice if they also would have increased the 3800 and not just the supercharged motor.

 The GTP isn't much more to insure then the GT, it depends on your driving record and insurance company. For me it was only about $100 per year difference, about $8 per month.

My 2001 I30t with 227 horse costs $100 more per year to insure then my 2002 GTP!! Go figure??

My 1995 Aurora cost more to insure per year then my 1997 GTP was.. go figure?

gunit

Richm4,

The tranny is good on the GP, but the competition is now going to 5 spd auto's... which offer better performance while still maintaining the highway gas mileage.

    My 2002 GTP tranny shifts better stock then my 2001 I30t does at all speeds. The i30t has too abrupt or harsh of a kickdown from 2 to 1 and is mushy in regular driving. In hard driving it is ok. Overall the GTP shifts better then my i30t.

I have since added the shift kit for nice hard firm shifts, which by the way extends the life of the clutches, less slipping.

oldsman01

My Intrigue has the dual zone automatic climate control and while the dual zone feature is nice when your date gets cold(I keep the temp set at about 68 or 69 in the summer), I could live without it. I would just like to see a single zone automatic climate control system in the new GP. I'd also like to see the auto dimming rearview mirror available.

carguy58, prior to the 97 GP and Regal and 98 Intrigue, I would never consider a midsize GM car. The 88-97 W bodies were intially conceived as coupes(and thus looked best in 2-door form). This really showed the sad state of GM at that time as the market was moving away from coupes to sedans. I read an article in a business journal some years back about the GM-10(88 W-body) platform and how it had great potential to take on the import competition and how GM basically blew it and blew even bigger amounts of money on it. I still remember the article stated that to date(circa 1995) GM has not made a penny on the W-bodies when taking into account the money they spent in development then rushing back to the drawing board to catch up.

midlifecrisis

I guess this is a forum to discuss why you would NOT buy an 04. For us who have already purchased or ordered an 04, those posts are of little use. Let's hear more from actual owners!

dindak

Fair enough. That said, the 3800 doesn't need any more power and I think GM just works on refining it year after year which is why it's the only decent and competitive OHV motor on the market for midsize sedans IMO.

gunit

Oldsman01, the 1997-2000 GP had the dual zone automatic climate control system then they dropped it and made a manual dual zone for 2001-03. It's funny because my '01 I30t doesnt have dual zone at all, odd for a luxury car? But I don't miss at all.

   The auto dimming reaview mirror was available on ALL GP's from '97-'03. Did they take it way from the '04? Funny note, is that my friend's 2003 Fully loaded Honda Odyssey, does NOT have a auto dimming rearview mirror either, kind of odd for a $30k van.

gunit

Dindak, I am definitely a fan of the Supercharged 3800 and 3800 in general, otherwise I wouldn't have bought my '97 and now '02 GTP coupes...

  Remember GM had a sophisticated DOHC 3.4L in the Grand Prix and I heard from serveral sourches that it was not the most reliable engine, they dropped it from the GP in favor of the 3800 for 1997. Go figure, the older GP had a more advanced engine... that they replaced with an OHV one for 1997...

dan165

Here here!

Lots of arm chair critics of this car that have never even driven it. Seems everyone has something bad to say but the owners all seem to be pretty happy with their cars. Goes to show ya, the proof is in the pudding (as they say)!!

Gunit, the 3800 V6 has wonderful solid power, why criticize GM for not increasing it? I could not be more happy with the motor. More is not always better.

Drove up to Ottawa this weekend to visit some friends. Got lots of looks on the highway though I did see a couple of other 2004 GPs on the highway. Car is still new on the street so it's really nice having a such unique and sporty car.

gunit

Oldsman01, I agree prior to 1997 when I bought my GTP coupe I wouldn't buy a midsized GM car either, didn't care for the styling and they dated back to nearly 1988...and what a difference, night vs day between the '97 and '96 GTP. "97 is bigger/roomier, much less cladding, much better looking and much more powerfull. Remember the 1997 sold nearly 150,000 copies vs only around 75,000 copies of the 1996. Sales doubled for the new model. Where as the '04 is only slated to sell about the same as the '03. To me it seems like there was alot more improvements made in '97 then there were for '04, also they killed the coupe which accounted for nearly 20% of GP sales. Buy what ya like, just my 2 cents and opinion.

gunit

Dan165, I have driven the '04 GTP Comp G, very nice car, handles better, has better seats and seems to be quieter then my '02. I would buy one IF they brought back the coupe as I have said many times. Historically the GP has always been a coupe, from '62-'89 Coupe only. The first GP sedan didn't arrive until 1990? Coupe to me conveys a sportier image and looks better then a sedan.

As for the 3800 V6, again a very good motor otherwise I wouldn't have bought my '97 and now '02. I criticize GM for not increasing it, BECAUSE, they increased the supercharged version but not the regular and because the competition in the midsized market has increased their engines across the board. While GM is still stuck with the same 200 horse engine since 1996? Again a very good motor, no doubt. But for me 200 horse doesn't cut the mustard, Even the 240 was so-so, that is why I have modified my GTP.

The '04 is a very nice car, but I prefer the looks of the '97-'02 Coupe the best, more bold and agressive and it's a coupe. My opinion. Drive what you like.

Martypa

engine's HP was somewhere in the neightborhood of 110 in it's first iterations. As it has been mentioned, GM has constantly refined it over the years. There may be a limitation based on it's design that would prohibit the naturally aspirated HP to go greater than 205 (as in the Bonneville), or it may be the engineering sweet spot that combines the best HP, torque, vs. MPG, etc.

I agree that GM is behind in this respect compared to their competitors. That is why expect the 3.6 and it's derivatives to replace the 3800 in many future applications.

I personally hope the 3800 never goes away. It is easy to work on and modify, and has been virtually bulletproof.

jmr001

I own a 04 GTP, had it about a month, and can't wait to drive it everyday. I really enjoy the car. The ride is a little firm, but I like the way you 'feel' the road. I have leather with the sunroof. The interior is nice. May not be as good as my Passat, but I don't have any complaints about it. I like the automatic headlights, don't have to worry about turning them on or off. Gas mileage isn't as good as I thought it would be, but I only have 1,200 miles on the car. I haven't seen too many GPs on the road yet.
My brother who works where they build the air conditioner, said they may have some problems with the compressor seizing up. They have had a few failures here in Florida, where you run your air all the time. Have to wait to see what happens.

evandro

This old beast is probably one of the finest engines ever. But no matter how we like it, it does have room for improvements, IMO.

I have a '02 Bonneville and recently got a '00 Intrigue. I really love the punch of the 3.8, but even with the excellent cabin isolation of the Bonneville it's clear that the 3.5 has much better NVH characteristics.

Then again, I love driving both cars. The engines have quite different "personalities", but both are excellent.

According to my brother, who recently drove a new CTS with the 3.6 V6, it's got the best of both worlds: 3.8-like low-end punch and 3.5-like high-end power and smoothness. However, I wonder what the new DOHC V6 can do with regular gas...

gunit

Remember back in 1987 the 3.8 made a stock 245 hp & 300ft-lbs torque in the Grand National, via a Turbo. The turbo could be problematic. Since 1987 GM hasn't really made much in the way of progress with HP and torque.

only problems I have seen with the 3800 are coolant leaks from the cheap plastic intake manifold they are still using, if you bought the Supercharged motor, you get a metal intake, problem solved!!

Someone had told me the older 3800's from 1988 to as late as '95/'96 were oil leakers? One mechanic called it the oil leak special, but not sure how true that is, my 1997 GTP developed oil leaks from the valve covers at only 40k miles.

The supercharged engine is the best of both worlds.. low end punch and high end power. The 3.5 is more smoother, but can't compete with the supercharged motor esp when the s/c motor is modded, it is much easier/cheaper to mod a 3800 s/c then it is to modify a 4.0L or 3.5L Olds DOHC. My 4.0L V8 would have cost a fortune to mod so I never bothered.

gunit

Pontiac's & Buicks flagship car should have more then the same 3800 found in the GP should have had V8's like the aurora... that is why in '95 I chose the Aurora, the engine and nice styling... I wanted the Rivieria but was not spending that kind of $$ on a 3800 in '95, rather have the 4.0L DOHC V8. 3800 is a great engine have them in my GTP's...

but for the $32k+ price a loaded Bonny goes for, that is too much $$ for a 3800 engine.

dindak

gunit : The 3.4L was no "sophisticated" motor. In fact from what I remember it was some kind of hybrid of a OHV and a DOHC design. No it was not a good motor. No comparison to the Intrigue 3.5L or the new 3.6L in the CTS.

Prefer the looks of the 04. Cleaner all around and more modern.

evandro : Does the 3.6L run on regular?

evandro

I'm not sure whether the 3.6 requires premium, just assuming it does...

If it really does, it's not a very efficient engine. If it doesn't, why is it that Cadillac sells cars for over $50000 running on regular, like the Seville?

gunit

Dindak, The 3.4L DOHC was a sophisticated motor , esp back in 1991 !!! based off the Quad 4 and was not a hybrid of a OHV and DOHC design. It was supposed to make 275-280 horse range, but GM didn't have a tranny that would hold up, so they detuned it to 200-215 hp. What GM learned from this engine they applied to the subsequent Caddy northstar/Aurora and 3.5 Intrigue engines.

 the problem with the DOHC northstar engines is oil burning at high mileage.. I heard this was fixed by '98 or '99

cars equipped with this 3.4 DOHC engine, IE 1991 model year has the same or BETTER performance then your Intrigue !! That is pretty impressive for a 1991 W body. 0-60 in 7.9 and top governed spd of 125mph very good for 1991, the same or better then your Intrigue.

yes the engine was tempermental. This engine was 33% more $$ to build then the 3.4 OHV engine. Another reason for its demise.

What I don't get is why would GM spend so much money on the 3.5 and 4.0 DOHC engines and only put them in one car? They were good engines, but they were put in cars that did NOT sell well.

It's kind of ironic that the 4.0 and 3.5 DOHC are now dead, yet the 3800 OHV lives on to now series 3 for '04. Reason being... more profit for GM on the 3800 and its put in multiple car lines..

gunit

The old addage is that if you can afford a $50k car you can afford premium gas...

rayainsw

"The 3.4L was no "sophisticated" motor. In fact from what I remember it was some kind of hybrid of a OHV and a DOHC design. No it was not a good motor." - dindak.

I owned a '91 GTP with the 3.4 and a manual trans. I had no reliability issues in over 40,000 miles. It (like many DOHC engines without VVT) did prefer high rpm.

I also owned a '97 GTP 3.8 S/C (automatic, obviously) - and it was (by comparison) a torque monster at lower rpm.

The engines had very different driving 'personalities' - but, I enjoyed owning both . . .

Cheers,
- Ray
Who had hoped for even more torque (and a trans. that would handle it) for '04 - and still hoping for '05 . . .

dindak

I dunno, I have heard many negative things about the 3.4L but I guess you likely know more about them then I. That said, I don't think they would out perform the 3.5L Shortstar and they certainly wouldn't be as smooth. The Shortstar was not killed for any reason other than it was expensive to build. The cars were exclusive Olds engines but Olds was killed and so were the engines.

johnclineii

Actually GM itself said one reason the Shortstar is no longer made is it would have required extensive modifications to meet coming emission requirements, and given its limited market, it didn't make sense to make those mods.

That being said, I bet there is a torque increase coming for the supercharged 3.8, and sooner rather than later.

dindak

Stupid emission controls! Take some SUVs off the road instead of forcing companies to kill engines that don't polute much in relative terms.

oldsman01

The 3.4 liter DOHC V6 had about as much in common with the "quad 4" as the Northstar V8 does. It indeed was a modified version of the 60 degree 3.1 liter OHV V6. I could probably dig out some old MT and C&D articles to prove it. I never drove one and from what I read, it was a decent performer, but did have problems. One being it loved to eat alternators(and the alternator was in a terrible location) and two, it used a rubber cog belt to drive the camshafts rather than chains. The Intrigue was initially supposed to get this engine while waiting for the new 3.5 to arrive, but in focus group testing many potential Intrigue customers found the engine harsh and unrefined so GM decided to put the trusty old 3800 V6 in first year Intrigues(good move IMO). As for older 3800s using or leaking oil, the one in my 89 Olds Touring Sedan did not use or leak a drop of oil or coolant. The only thing to ever leak out of that car was A/C condensate water(and it made poured a river of it).

Dindak, relax I was disappointed with the demise of the 3.5 liter V6 as well, but I think the new 3.6 liter DOHC V6 will more than make up for it. The 3.5's 90 degree design limited it's applications to larger cars. Can you imagine what fun a lighter and smaller car like an Alero would be with an engine like that!

oldsman01

Does GM still use Harrison for it's A/C compressors on the GP? I read someone that their higher end cars like Cadillacs are going with a scroll compressor made by Mitsubishi. Report said that Deplhi/Harrison's unit was not as refined. All I know is when I had a Cadillac SLS as a rental last summer, you did not hear the usual A/C compressor clatter when the car was idling and you stood next to it. That car had to have the smoothest sounding idle I've ever heard.

regfootball

oldsmans post on the the old twin dual cam was correct. It was a modified version of the ubiquitous 3.1 60 deg. v6 pushrod, done that way to save tooling costs.

In the end, the half butt approach to doing this engine in lieu of doing a proper design led to its poor reliability and spotty refinement.

but that's GM then.

"This engine was 33% more $$ to build then the 3.4 OHV engine. Another reason for its demise."

Yet all Kias and Hyundais have OHC (some dohc)powerplants standard on all models including the Rio. And finally we have Ecotecs in the otherwise dated Cavaliers. GM is finally starting to figure it out. You can't keep rehashing old pushrods and still be competitive.

midlifecrisis

I have the 3.4L engine in my 99 Grand Am GT. It has been very reliable. It is rated at 175 HP and 205 ftlbs. With its gearing, the car will crank out 0-60 in less than 8 seconds, one of the fastest in that class. And I can get 24-25 MPG in mixed driving.

I can't knock the engine, but others have claimed gasket problems.

Martypa

GM was originally going to put the DOHC 3.4 in the Intrigue before settling on the 3800(prior to the eventual switch to the 3.5). The reason the 3.4 was ditched were the complaints in pre marketing studies about the noise level of the engine.

vcjumper

3.4 DOHC

dindak

I thought I was right about the 3.4L. I just couldn't remember the details.

I am very excited about the 3.6L and I pray GM has some smaller derivatives to put in some of the midsize offerings in a year or two. I like the 3800 enough, but I love my 3.5L Shortstar.

Drove by the local Pontiac lot this morning. Only one 04 GP left, guess they are selling as they had 5 a couple of weeks ago.

gunit

Dindak, the 3.4L DOHC in a 1991 W body would have the same performance of an Intrigue. 0-60 in 7.9 seconds and top end governed to 125mph. If that 3.4 is a manual shift watch out. Also, the 1991 W body is smaller and lighter then the Intrigue too by a small amount. By 1991 standards 7.9 to 60 was impressive in a regular midsized GM.

Yes the 3.5 is better in all aspects.

gunit

GM is stuck with a max of 280 ft -lbs torque on the 4T65E tranny until they either enhance/beef it up or introduce a new tranny. I have added a shift kit, external tranny cooler with syn. tranny oil and will soon be adding a limited slip differential for less torque steer and better off the line traction. With my mods I don't want to be killing my tranny.

You can buy the Yank sportsmen 4T65E which has a 50% higher torque/hp capacity over the standard 4T65E and will take up to 400 ft-lbs of torque !! Some guys at the strip use them with great success. But that is alot $$.

hillfla

We just bought a 2003 Grand Prix GTP. We have over 500 miles on it already and have noticed that the gas mileage is much lower than what the sticker said on the window. Our commute to work is about 90% highway driving yet we are only averaging about 20 mpg (that is both according to the car computer and our pen and paper method). Sticker said 28 mpg for highway driving. Does anyone else have these problems or know if it will get better as the car gets more miles on it? We've been filling it with the premium gas like we are supposed to.

Thanks!

dan165

Gunit, I remember that 3.4L and it was not a nice motor.

Hillfla, Mileage usually starts to get better after a few fillups. You never get the posted right away. If you have a lead foot (I'm not saying you do), you will never get the posted mileage. I'm getting pretty close to the advertised right now after about 2500 KMs.

carguy58

I have only seen 2 on the road so far and thats when it first debut. Thats kind of weird.

dindak

hillfla : Give it a couple of months. I've never had a car that got listed gas mileage right away. Our Intrigue got horrid gas mileage for the first 2 months and now actually exceeds listed mileage numbers.

carguy : I've seen about 5 or 6 on the road so far. Saw 3 this weekend on the highways of southern Ontario. One may have been a rental as it had the plastic wheel covers , looked bad with those.

gunit

HillFla, Most friends/family I know NEVER get the EPA listed mpg, probably heavy footed like me..ha!

With my 2002 GTP modded to 300 hp+ I now get 14/15 in town and 23/24 on the highway. I do about 75mph on the highway.

gunit

Oldsman01,

This is from.... http://www.angelfire.com/ca2/34Performance/dohc.html

<<<The 3.4 was concepted as a V6 version of the Olds 2.3L "quad 4". The quad motor went into production in 1988, and that also marked the start of the V6 design program. The 3.4L DOHC was actually the forerunner of many current motors. The Cadillac Northstar 4.6L 32 Valve V8, and later the Aroura 4.0L 32-Valve V8, were sons of the V6 program. Now we have expanded into the 3.5L V6 and to a degree, the OHC Truck V8 small-block. Most of us wouldnt put that as important, but the lessons learned on the Quad 4 went into improvements for the 3.4 V6, and subsequently, the Northstar and Aroura. >>>

gunit

Dindak, the Chrysler 3.5L OHC debuted in 1999 at the same time as the GM 3.5L DOHC and made alot more power... 250 hp vs 215 and 260ft -lbs vs 230ft-lbs.

The funny thing is that the 300M is only 200 pounds heavier then Intrigue yet only has the same peformance numbers.

The 300M handles very well for a fullsized FWD car, better then the GM W bodies. Interior is alot nicer too, but they had their build quality issues too. If it were only faster I may have considered one.

This is due to the fact that the Chrysler auto trannies rob alot more HP then the GM auto trannies, from what I have read at several sources.

gunit

DIndak, The ony negative onThe Northstars, especially the early 1993-1997, Aurora V8 included were that they were OIL burners... either burned it or consumed it one way or another by the time they hit 75k miles... I know from personal experience on my '95 Aurora that I bought new. I wasn't the only one. 2 neighbors had the same thing on their '93 and '94 caddy's. Of course by the time they consumed/burned they were out of factory warranty. I heard it was from the design in the limp home mode, where you can drive up to 45mph for 50miles with NO coolant.

Not sure if this ever affected the 3.5? Maybe not.

The 3.5 was a financial loss for GM, never really made any $$ back on the investment. Intrigue sales went down each year.. the best year was 1998 when it had the 3800, so go figure??

GM should have offered that 3.5 in all the W bodies or more of them, then they would have made more $$ back on it.

To build only one engine for one car today is crazy, unless its a LS430 or something like that, even that engine is used in one or 2 other applications.

gunit

<<<Pontiac's reworked midsize was a big hit from the start. Sales of the '97 model ran more than 50 percent of 1996 levels, though naturally its popularity tapered off later>>>

Killing the coupe lost 20% of the Grand Prix customers... that is why the 2002 outsold the 2003. Right now the 2004 sales are behind the '03's...

The 2004 will never have the sales success over the '03 like the 1997 did over the '96, GP lost me as a future customer by killing the coupe, I will not ever be buying again unless the coupe returns !!

The '04 GTP was supposed to make 280 horse/280 ft lbs torque, it ended up short at 260hp/280 ft lb. GM detuned it to 260 from 280 at the last minute for some reason !!! It wasn't tranny issues... That tranny can take 300hp no problem.. the limit is the 280 torque !!

6yrs later All GM adds is 20 hp to the GTP? Give me a break. 6yrs later and Nissan has added 75 hp to the Altima and max.... Big dif... Why couldn't GM add 75hp? Because they don't want the 3800 making more power then their northstars. which can easily be done... that would be seen as an embarassment for GM. Just like the Grand national was an embarassment back in 1987 to the Corvette, it was faster 0-60 and 1/4 mile on a 3.8L V6, compared to the vettes 5.7L V8. That is also why the 3800 in 1996 was only bumped to 240hp... because Olds had a 250 hp V8... in the '95 aurora.

In fact the 1987 Grand national was GM's fastest car until the ZR1 vette of 1990 took the honor's back. that is why we will not ever see a 300 hp 3800, unless the northstar gets a HP bump. Typical GM...

dindak

3.5L burns no oil in general, a few do but that can be said about any motor.

Can't predict 04 sales yet, far too early in the game.

Like I've said before, MOST people do not dwell on HP numbers like you.

johnclineii

Most people do not dwell on HP numbers? Are you being funny?

Manufacturers are currently in what amounts to a small race to increase horsepower numbers. To the exclusion of torque, which most people don't even understand.

Horsepower sells. If it didn't, the manufacturers wouldn't be trumpeting their horespower numbers! Comparative ads abound!

HP is a MAJOR selling point for the GTP. Has been since day 1.

regfootball

can you find the car and driver tech article on the 3.4 twin dual cam, my magazines are buried in a box i can't get to right now without undue effort. I know for a fact that article refers to the twin dual cam as a reengineered pushrod motor, rather than a quad 4 offshoot as that non-expert website posted above seems to state.

vcjumper

It does burn oil in many people's Intrigues, several people in the Intrigue problems board have had it burn atleast a quart between changes including myself. It is something that when it happens, seems to show up after the engine has past its childhood though (60,000Miles+).

It sure was a silly error for GM to design and produce this motor and give up on it only after a few years. Not quite an aztek size error though.

rayainsw

"HP is a MAJOR selling point for the GTP. Has been since day 1. "

I agree. Adding TQ (and I do understand and appreciate TQ) as a critical item as well - important aspects including: peak TQ, rpm of peak TQ, shape of curve and area under the curve.

One reason I am not yet seriously looking at the '04 GTP CompG is: exactly the same TQ level as my '97. The automotive world has changed - a lot - since I bought my GTP. And Pontiac has not kept pace in this area. If the '05 has 300+ HP and 330+ TQ, I will be MUCH more likely to consider writing a check . . .

Cheers,
- Ray
Wondering what else will be available 'next year' on the market.

orwoody

For those interested in the new GTO, Pontiac is taking advanced Orders:

http://www.imail.imrsvcs.com/UM/T.asp?A37.97.32.1.474942

I'm working this week in Boston, living with a 2004 GT... much better to have for a few days than just a test drive. I'm finding some of my earlier impressions changing. Will post opinions once my date is over.

dindak

johnclineii : No I'm not joking. Most people don't. I know lots of car guys and none of them go on comparing HP numbers. It's certainly on thing they would mention but not dwell on. That said, the GTP has indeed been about the HP and for some that's their priority. I would guess that the VAST majority of people you asked on the street couldn't even tell you how many HP their car's engine produces.

vcjumper : Only a few oil burners, not "many".