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Comments
A usually reliable source indicates that the GP GXP will be $29.9 MSRP (before incentives). According to Pontiac.com, a GTP CompG MSRP currently is: $28.7K. The Bonneville GXP at over $7K higher (currently $36.3K base - before incentives) is quite a bit more expensive at MSRP. The choice to utilize the 275 HP version of the Northstar DOHC V8 (a relatively complex and expensive motor, and not the best low end TQ generator) and more expensive (and larger) trans. – and a 3.7:1 final drive – does not seem to have been the correct one. The performance and the sales have both been disappointing. The only published test I am aware of (C+D last year) reports the Bonne GXP at 0 – 60 in 6.9 and the SS Quarter in 15.4 at 91. Not quick, by my definition. (See my fearless prediction of GP GXP 0 – 60 and SS Quarter above.)
And the Bonne GXP’s EPA 17 / 24 is not very impressive fuel mileage, to me. And various postings seem to indicate that 24 is as good as it gets in the real world.
Will the GP GXP be worth (with what have become typical incentives and a typical discount) something like $26 – 27K? Something perhaps close to $31 / 32K with all available options, including the DVD NAV system, sunroof, leather, premium audio / stereo upgrade, XM, dual zone HVAC, and remote start. (? = MSRP $36K????) This is a rhetorical question. Your answers may vary.
I have seen interest and I have seen “what are they thinking????” responses to this GXP on other forums.
If you add the cost of all of the items included in the GXP package, the total may be reasonable, if you’d actually want all of these items anyway. The GXP V8 motor weighs less than the S/C 3800. The DoD, combined with a 2.93 final drive (allowing approx. 10% lower RPM at cruise than the CompG – and approx. 26% lower than the Bonne GXP’s 3.7) may allow fuel mileage similar to the CompG – and better than the Bonne GXP.
List of upgrades / additions / substitutions I understand to be part of the GXP package:
1 – All-aluminum LS4 - 5.3 V8 – 303 / 323 w/DoD.
1.5 – Significantly upgraded / strengthened 4T65-E trans.
2 – Lowered.
3 – Bilstein gas-charged dampers and higher rate springs.
3.5 – Stiffer rear stabilizer bar.
4 – 18” wheels / W-rated tires.
5 – Significant brake upgrade.
5.5 - StabiliTrak is standard.
6 - Restyled front and rear. (In effect, this also includes the $675 PDC group of after production accessories - grill inserts, larger spoiler and exhaust tips.)
Whether or not this is all worth the actual negotiated transaction price, after discount and incentives is clearly up to every individual buyer. (I will be particularly interested to see if the current $2 and $3K? rebates on GP’s will be applied to the GXP.)
From pictures I have seen, I particularly like the front re-style. I am willing to give one a test drive, when they start to appear on dealers’ lots – likely in late April / early May.
- Ray
Currently falling into the “interested” group . . .
Performance wise, the numbers were a little disappointing.
I would imagine that the GP GXP had a lot to do with the demise of the Bonneville. The GP GXP will most likely beat the Bonneville GXP in both performance price.
I wonder if there will be a torque steer problem with the GP GXP. We will know soon.
They apparently did sell more in CY 2004 than 2003 - but not "enough more". . .
And still less than in 2002, 2001, 1999, 2000 . . .
- Ray
Expecting Torque Steer under certain conditions.
“Press the accelerator while driving in the highest
gear (fourth gear) which is between 20 and 50 mph to
make the transaxle automatically down-shift. As
you’re speed gets closer to 50 mph, more effort will
be required to press the acclerator. At 50 mph, even
with the accelerator fully depressed, the transaxle
will always remain in the 4th gear.”
Well – my reading of this suggests that (setting aside the mis-spelling) the automatic trans. will downshift even if the shift selector is in the “M” position, if vehicle speed is below 50 mph.
2 questions (since I have only about a half hour of seat time in a CompG):
1 – Does it downshift (only) 1 gear? Or as far as it can downshift without exceeding redline? (Second gear, up to over 80 mph?)
2 – The “more effort” mentioned – does this behave like an old “kick-down” switch incorporated in the current Audi / VW Tiptronic? (And from automatic trans. in many cars from the 60s and 70s?)
Thanks,
- Ray
Driving other Manumatics extensively, just not this one . . .
As for GTP's.. my 2002 cost me $23k fully loaded, HUD, leather, sunroof, chrome wheels, BOSE stereo, heated seat etc.
I put $2k into it with mods, total price of $25k.. Should now run a low 14 second 1/4.
Remember Coupe was 70 pounds LIGHTER then sedan '97 - '02
Meanwhile he Bonny GXP V8 tranny was designed to take the 275hp/300 torque from the Northstar V8, it's the same tranny Caddy uses...
My understanding is that there have been a laundry list of modifications / enhancements to the 4T65-E to handle the increased HP and TQ,
including a larger, heavy duty torque converter.
If I see a list I will post it.
My understanding further is that the Bonne GXP (and Caddy Northstar) trans. is both larger and heavier.
- Ray
Waiting to test drive one . . .
My 1995 V8 Aurora had the same tranny.. after 5yrs.. flawless.. I traded that car in 2000 for other problems.. burning oil from the "Shortstar" V8 which is a common problem up until 1998 or 1999 and other electrical problems.
The only mods to my 2002 GTP tranny are a shift kit and external tranny cooler and I do run Mobil 1 synthetic tranny fluid. I am not that hard on my car. Once in a while I like to hear it roar, LOL! Mine is around 300hp+
Where as my 2002 GTP.. torque steer but manageble..
True.
My guess is that the decision was made way back when the new redesign for the front engine / trans. ‘cradle’ specs were set down for the 2004 GP not to spend the additional money to allow for this larger unit. The HP / TQ ‘race’ currently in full swing had not yet really taken off back then. . .
Again, this is pure speculation, but given that decision, perhaps they were able to finally justify the $$s to develop an upgrade to the 4T65-E torque handling capacity.
It is also very, VERY interesting to me that Pontiac chose to put a V8 into the GXP, as opposed to a further developed 3800 with more supercharger boost.
It has been demonstrated that the 3800 S/C is capable of (reliably) generating a lot more HP and TQ than currently.
Perhaps it was an emissions related decision? And / or EPA fuel mileage issue?
Likely we will never know for sure . . .
I did have a ’97 GTP – and had Thrasher replace the S/C pulley. Never a trans. issue, and I did drag race it more than a few times.
I am personally far more concerned with how the driving experience actually turns out with what they DID decide to develop and produce than why they did not do this or that . . .
- Ray
Who also had a ’91 STE 3.4 DOHC w/5-speed manual trans. . .
--Robert
Most interesting thing I see is a that a GTP w/PDX and every option =
$ CDN 43,135
and a GXP with all available options =
$ CDN 42,875
Hmmmmm . . .
- Ray
Wondering what correlation there will be to US pricing . . .
Definitely true, it's very EASY and CHEAP to modify a GTP to make more power, vs a Maxima or Accord etc.. Simple pulley change and PCM reprogram... I never had a problem with the tranny's on my 1997 or now 2002 GTP coupes. I do run an external tranny cooler, shift kit and Mobil 1 synthetic. I am only hard on it once in a while.
While the 3800 is a great engine, it's not as refined as the competition, V6 Altima-Maxima etc.. My i30t is much quieter etc. I like the Pontiac Growl sound out of the exhaust. I would have liked to have seen the 3.6L DOHC Caddy engine. The Lacrosse which is same car as GP is getting it as an option, why not the GP??
If that is the case, I could buy a Base 280hp Infiniti G35X all wheel drive with longer warrranty-better service-loaner cars, handling etc... Just my opinion.
Clearly this is a question only you can answer – for you . . .
To each their own.
Looking only at base price for a GTP CompG and base price ($29.9K + dest.) of a GXP, I see additional value in several areas that justifies the MSRP.
(Note: All “value” I refer to here is based on specs and reports from those who have driven Pilot Production copies . . Subject to modification after my own test drives.)
1 – All-aluminum LS4 - 5.3 V8 – 303 HP / 323 TQ w/DoD.
Value to me here is:
A - Additional 43 HP and 43 TQ over the 3800 S/C at 260 / 280 – with no increase in weight.
B – V8 exhaust burble.
C – V8 smoothness.
2 – Significantly upgraded / strengthened 4T65-E trans.
Value to me here is:
I expect that the upgrades mean this trans. would last longer (all other factors being the same) compared to a 3800 S/C modified to this HP / TQ level.
4 – Lowered.
A - I expect that it will look better – to me.
B – I will not be tempted to buy lowering springs – and risk screwing up the suspension geometry.
5 – Bilstein gas-charged dampers and higher rate springs.
Value to me is a better ride / handling compromise than the compG.
5.1 – Stiffer rear stabilizer bar.
Again, better ride / handling.
6 – 18” wheels / W-rated tires.
I will not be tempted to buy 18” wheels and tires to replace the 17”-ers on the CompG. And I happen to like the wheel style chosen.
7 – Significant brake upgrade over CompG.
A good thing.
8 - Restyled front and rear. (In effect, this also includes the $675 PDC group of after production accessories - grill inserts, larger spoiler and exhaust tips.)
Although I do find that I can only fairly judge a 3D object like a car by seeing it in person, (and styling is clearly VERY subjective) the styling changes as I have seen in the pictures released indicate something that appeals to me better than the CompG.
So – if the CompG was worthy of the MSRP assigned, I think the GXP is clearly worth even more – to me.
Now, TMV / true eventual transaction cost of a GXP once available for sale (after any discounts, incentives, etc.) may require re-evaluation.
We will see . . .
- Ray
Waiting (oh, so patiently) to see one and drive one . . .
For example I only got $8k for a trade in on my 1997 GTP in 2002. It only had 58k miles.
My current 2002 GTP that MSRP at $28k is only worth $13k private sale today.. Although with the mods I could get more.. but not much more.
Also for the price of the GXP I can almost buy a GTO... so that would be the route I would go.. 400hp V8 and either manual or automatic as a choice and Rear drive. I like the GTO.
Speaking of which...a few months back I brought my GTP in for service and the guys at the Pontiac dealership thought it was a GTO, LOL! Asking me how I liked it etc.. Not sure how they could confuse it... I do have a nice aftermarket grille that looks similar to GTO, but still. Probably because it was 2 doors...
Hopefully GM gets that 4T65-E tranny right for that 300hp V8 setup.. I hope it lasts too. Time will tell. I would be weary buying a first year model of it.
I would never personally do that again, already did with the 1997 GTP and 1995 V8 Aurora.. turned out ot have problems.. maybe it was bad luck. 2002 GTP is so far knock on wood 100X better then my 1997 GTP was. Only 1warranty repair in 2+ yrs.
Where as my 1997 GTP had a warranty repair about every 2 or 3 months, LOL! I got great use out of the extended warranty on it, LOL!
The headlights on my 1997 GTP and now 2002 GTP are not so good. highbeams are nearly useless. 1997 to 2003 generation was known for not having the best headlights. I put the sylvania silverstars that give a nice white HID Look, fully DOT Legal.
I would never personally do that again, already did with the 1997 GTP and 1995 V8 Aurora.. turned out ot have problems.. maybe it was bad luck. 2002 GTP is so far knock on wood 100X better then my 1997 GTP was. Only 1warranty repair in 2+ yrs.”
I agree concerning the 4T65-E. I also hope they “get it right”.
The overall GXP reliability would seem likely to track with the CompG, as it has now been out since the 2004 model year. Much of the GXP is clearly CompG. One hopes that Pontiac has had time to work the bugs out of major systems like the HVAC, and other complex systems that are essentially the same.
Of the things that have changed, the motor / trans. seems to me the most likely to be a potential area of reliability concern. The trans., due to the increased loads it will need to deal with, and the motor, largely due to the DoD.
Of course, if warrantee work (or the lack thereof) is a primary consideration, there are other brands that have a better reliability rating - and offer loaners (by corporate policy) when a vehicle is in for such work.
I am not aware of another new vehicle with all the features I find interesting about the GXP, at a comparable price. (Including, for instance: 300+ HP and TQ, V8 exhaust note, manumatic, comprehensive HID, 18” wheels / tires, expected highway MPG approx. 27, - and available at an MSRP near $30K, etc.)
BTW: My ’97 GTP had (IIRC) one warrantee issue, a ‘fail to start – tow to dealer’ incident early on. After that, no issues in approx 2.5 years and approx. 40,000 miles.
- Ray
Still v. interested in driving the GXP . . .
GM plans to offer a twin Chevy Impala for 2006.
True. And the physical drivetrain I understand to be identical.
Monte Carlo as well.
However, the TapShift (manumatic) function for the trans. I believe will continue to be exclusive to the Pontiac. And I really appreciate the additional measure of control & enjoyment such a feature offers in an automatic trans. equipped sport sedan. And will the Impala offer a HUD – I have not checked? (I meant HUD when I wrote HID above. Oops.)
I have only seen a few pictures of the Impala. I hope to see one (among several others of potential interest to me) at the Atlanta Show here in April.
Should be an interesting show.
Cheers,
- Ray
Glad to see some of the new (automotive) choices becoming available . . .
Likely, though I have seen no announcement from GM. I believe there are issues with this motor meeting some upcoming emissions requirement changes. .
MPG: Highway MPG was pretty impressive on my '97. Looks like the GXP's V8 will be close to the same.
Trans: I had no issues with my '97 - even with an increase (pulley) to something like 280 / 310 HP / TQ. CU / CR shows the S/C seperate from other GP's in their latest issue - and the S/C reliability is shown as significantly worse.
Resale: An issue with most US Branded cars. One reason to negotiate the best possible transaction price initially . . .
- Ray
GXP Job1 is scheduled for this month . . .
Unless, maybe the Park Avenue still will use it? Are the still producing the PA? Can not remember.
I see no indication in the online ordering guide (version dated 25 Feb.) that a GTP cannot still be ordered - with the 3800 S/C. GXP added, some packages re arranged and re-named (CompG is no longer, for instance). But the GTP / 2WR69 is still listed, with the L32 as standard and only available motor.
But I'd check with a local dealer's sales manager. . .
- Ray
Ready to drive the (438.0 N-m) V8 beast . . .
There was a Prototype Grand Prix V8 with All Wheel Drive at the NY auto show back in 2002 or 2003? Too bad they couldn't have done that instead of Front drive. Can't wait to test drive the V8 GXP. If there was a coupe I woulud buy in year or 2.
True without a doubt, get the best deal you can, because resale will not be that good on a GTP or other american car. My 1997 GTP lost about 66% of it's value in 5yrs, same with my 1995 Aurora.
On the flip side of the coin cars with poor resale value make for a great used car buy too.
I personally like the growl-performance sound of the GTP exhaust..
Most cars with dual exhaust outlets are NOT true dual exhaust. Some like Crown Vic, Mustang, GTO , vette, camaro were/are.
What happened to your 1997 that you only had it for 2.5 yrs?
If you remember back in 1997 the Coupe was $500 or $1000 cheaper then sedan. Where as by 2002 it was only $100 dif if that, very close.
I liked my 1997 but thankgod for the extended warranty. it more then paid for itself. my 2002 has been great so far. ABS much quieter, less road noise, engine feels slightly more refined. New motor mount were incorporated in 2000 GP. Bosch did the ABS/Traction control starting in 1998. I believe Delco did ABS in 1997, noiser.
1998 and later fixed many problems of the 1997 including, No traction control, 2nd generation airbags deploy at 2 spds, New shrouding and mounts on fans to make them more efficient, lips underneath side view mirrors to reduce wind noise, more sound insulation in fenders, 1999 fixed headlight condensation problem, fixed fuel pump resistor, fixed wiper malfunctioning problem RECALL, 2000 Fuel system pressure raised 30% easier HOT climate starting, 2000 NEW hydraulic engine mounts for reduced engine vibrations,
Always better off waiting for 2nd or 3rd year of a car, esp an American one. Some people have great luck with a 1st year car, I am not one of them, LOL!
The std 200hp 3800 was known for the intake manifold gasket going bad, where as the SC3800 had a real metal intake that was fine.
CR says the 5.3L V8 will make 290 hp.
Don't know how they put the Kia Optima and Hyundai XG350 way ahead of the GP.. I have driven the XG350 and it handles pretty poorly.. and is much slower compared to the GTP. Who knows
That was a prelim. estimate - in a statement released by GM last October.
Everything I have seen recently indicates that the 'real' numbers are 303 / 323.
Since you can price one on the GMCanada site, I expect "official" release shortly . . .
- Ray
Who has been wrong before . . .
Grand Prix is not a bad car by any stretch. GM sells them by the case and I love mine.
Its time to get a new company car at work. Spent the last 10 years driving Chryslers and now work offers GM's. I have a choice between a Grand Prix and an Impala. Leaning towards the GP since I'm 37 and still enjoy sportiers cars. I checked out the Impala and when sitting in it I felt like I was in a car designed for a 55 year old.
How is the GP in terms of performance, comfort and reliablility? Are there any inherent problems with them? Will I hate it after a year(I drive them for 3 1/2 years before they replace 'em)?
Now here's the deal.....they give me $22,000 to spend and thats OUT THE DOOR money so that means tax and all dealer fee's included. At this number am I looking at a base model or do you think I can work a deal on a GT? I really would love a GT with a Sunroof but I dont think the money will work even though the current rebates are worth $3000.
Any thoughts are appreciated. Thanks in advance.
Craig
Soon to bid farewell to the POS PT Cruiser company car.
The April issue of Consumer Reports rates the Grand Prix as very reliable. My company car is a 2004 Grand Prix GT1, and I have only changed fluids, filters, and rotated the tires regularly for 53,500 miles. The car has not been back to the dealer yet.
I would recommend the Grand Prix over the 2005 Impala. I understand that the 2006 Impala will be redone to add better seats, new engines, and standard driver and passenger side airbags. That sounds like a nice car, but it does not sound like you can wait until the 2006's come out.
http://www.chevrolet.com/impala06/
I fully agree with you and I also love my MODIFIED 2002 Grand Prix GTP coupe. I don't understand how CR says the GP is not competitive. GTP matched or outperformed the Audi A6 and other cars in many areas in the independent testing. Yet it's not compettive, yeah right!! I get a good laugh reading CR, I do NOT base my car buying decisions on them.
Best was that CR called the Kia Optima, based on XG350 one of the worst handling cars they have recently tested, yet its rated much higher then the GP? Go figure.
Also in their last full report Jan 2004 they only tested a GT2, not a GTP.
In their last comparos, they only tested the GT2 agains the competition not the GTP... they claimed a GTP was not available.. it's not a fair test if you are going to test the other competitors best cars, but not the GTP, LOL!
http://eogld.ecomm.gm.com/dmdindex.htm
It lists the GTP with a dual outlet exhaust, but it doesn't list the GXP.
Per the standard equipment; it appears the GXP will come with the equipment that is currently in the Comp G package (with 18" wheels & tires instead). Std equipment listed for the GXP is HUD, DIC/Trip computer, 18" wheels & tires(255/45R18 front and 225/50R18 rear), Stabilitrak, Magnasteer II, Tap shift, Special GXP spoiler and front fascia.
Per the specs, the GXP weights only 17 pounds more than the GTP so the all aluminum V8 is a real advantage at 303hp & 323 lb-ft.
A new color Dark Cherry Metalic is coming.
My estimate is the base GXP will start at ~$29k; add upgraded stereo/CD changer and XM radio; side air bags/curtains; leather; moonroof - you'll be pushing $33k at MSRP. But we all know that GM will sweeten the pot with incentives once the GXP has been out a while.
As for Consumer Reports - their bias' are well known and my experiences don't match their data that well. We've owned domestic and foreign (Volvo, Toyota and Subaru) and had mixed results with both.
What happened to the nicer interior top door panels of 1997 to 2003? Kind of had that tuck and roll upholstery look of 1950's hot rods.. with pleated vinyl/leather? 2004 is just plastic rubber up there.
An AWD GP with the V8 would be a real sport sedan and Pontiac could do one up right and fully loaded with all the gadgets for less than $32k if they wanted to.
I read somewhere Pontiac was working on a replacement for the GP and 2007 sounds about right. That would coincide about the same time as the new GTO.
Where it said GTP in the lower Front door panels, it had newer badging saying G8 All Wheel Drive.
When is GM going to better differentiate the GT from the GTP? They look identical other then the badging on the rear or sides.
The nonadjust bright red DIC is one of my least favorite features on the 2004 GP. The seats are more comfortable than 97-03. (I'd pay extra to GTO seats in the GP)
I am leaning towards a GTO for 2007. Time will tell
I need a rig that I can get my young daughter in/out of easily and also carry a week's luggage for 3/4. If they could only find a new home for the gas tank on the GTO, it'd definitely still be of interest. I'm waiting until 2006/2007 to see what is coming.
The exterior sheetmetal looks acceptable. Personally I think the previous design was nicer but this is still a slick looking car none the less. The Blue Green Crystal paint is really attractive and adds a nice dimension. All the GT models I've seen at local dealerships have the polished aluminum wheels. While I dont hate them I dont love 'em either. The GTP wheels are better but I cant spend that much$$. The interior is very nice IMHO. I like the cockpit setup with the dash wrapping the driver. The leather wrapped steering wheel feels really good in my hands especially with the bulged points at about 10 and 2 o clock. Love the steering wheel mounted controls for the radio too! This car had the dual zome climate which is trick and the information display has some great readouts too! I found the power driver seat very good and even at 6'1" I was able to get comfortable. Plenty of legroom and headroom when the seat is adjusted well. Sitting in the driver seat looking out across the hood I like the feel of driving something substantial. The PT cruiser I've been driving now feels like a childs toy after driving the GP. The GP I tested was fitted with leather and sunroof(although I'm unlikely to swing either option) and I loved the feel. Until now I always had a really negative opinion of GM interiors. They always seems to be cheezy and plasticy. Although there is alot of plastic in the GP it looks and feels decent.
Remote start....Cool! I mean, in Florida its not really needed but I suppose on those hot steamy Florida summer afternoons I can fire the car up from the house and let it cool off before I head out. Put the sucker in drive and immedietly I can feel how much more car this is than the PT(have I mentioned its a childs toy in comparison?). Everything from the feeling of the shifter change position to the steering wheel to looking out over and across the hood....It simply is pleasing. Hit the gas pedal and WHATS THAT??? a glitch! Before I even got 20 feet I detected an unusual feel to the response from the gas pedal at low speeds. The salesmen says its the electronic system instead of a cable(throttle by wire). Is this true?? Anyway at normal driving speeds the car simply romps. Wonderful acceleration that seems effortless. There is even an exhaust note to indicate this car is a sporty sedan with a little attitude. Didnt get to adequetly test handling performance but it sure feels like I could rail around the turns with confidence. I found the suspension at a good balance between performance and comfort with a bias towards sport. Just right for me.
Overall I was very impressed and have decided the GP will be my new company car. I have $22,000 to spend(no tax to worry about in that figure) so with the current rebates of $3000 and a markup of approx $2000 I'm looking at one that has a sticker of about 26 to 27 grand. I guess that'll be a GT with no extra options :-(
What have you guys been paying for your '05's before tax?
Craig