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rating alone.
Also, if you want to brag about HP ratings,
I don't think you should be driving either
a Camry or an Accord.
I really get a kick from some of these people who take their cars so pesonally and get all worked up over a car purchase. Keep posting, it's funny entertainment...for awhile.
I just like to drive my cars, not sleep in them..
Honda younger population has to do with with it's larger line of sports cars. Toyota has traditionalled catered to the more established population. But yes, you are correct, Toyota is getting back to the younger population, with a whole truck load of younger products as you read in the article. And it's working quite nicely. Toyota now has retaken buyers from Honda, now dominates more than 42% of the market and easily out pace Honda in growth. In the U.S, the new Celica lowered its buying population's age by 9 years already. Toyota never fails when comes to achieving its business goals. And money (which Toyota has more than any other automaker) is the end all power in business.
Also, I noticed that Toyota has been stockpiling a large amount of liquid asset. Little more than a year ago, a similar report stated Toyota had $12 billion on the cash board. Half a year ago, the report was $16 billion. Now the most recent one (as stated in this report from March, I assume is from Toyota's 2001 Fiscal year annual report), it's $20 billion! That money enough to buy 40% of Ford or DC, or 60% of GM or Honda. I wonder why Toyota is stockpiling so much money.
I think Toyota is about to make a big move very soon with this huge stockpile of money. Buying out Honda's racing team is nothing to Toyota, $3 million? Not even pocket change. If Honda wants to compete $ to $ with Toyota, or compete in business competence, we all know who is going to be the worse off. Honda is in no position to stand toe to toe with Toyota. And I think Honda knows that, and that's why Honda and put the vast majority of it's efforts in the U.S while Toyota spread it's resource evenly accross the globe. Even then, Honda is only barely keeping up with Toyota's growth in the U.S.
So please don't throw average age again & again.
Figures sometimes are misleading.
Talking about Celica: ??? It's actually a joke.
2000 Celica matches the performance of 93 Integra !! It is attracting sales now a days as it's in first model year.
Honda: It's every product is as good or better than Toyota. Toyota's domination comes where Honda doesn't have any product.
Ofcourse: Toyota is a business gaint & there is no comp of Honda/Toyota when it comes to cash. We are talking about products they produce.
7 years old integra: They still sell 30K of them a year & Celica would sell around 50-60 in it's first model year. Wait for a redesign.
The only Integra that can go head to head with the Celica GS-R is the Integra type-R. That didn't appear until 1997. That's 3 years ahead, not 7 years (ok, so that cancels out the 3 year lead that Toyota has on Honda in the area of hybride cars) Oh, selling 500 Integra-R a year is sure a big hit in the market.
Honda's every product is as good or better than Toyota? For you maybe. For a sports oriented person maybe. Got anything as good as the LS400 or LS430? How about GS400? As tough as the Landcruiser? Or as quiet as the Camry? Or a hybrid car that's actually useful like the Prius? "Toyota's domination comes where Honda doesn't have any product." Well that can be said about Honda. Honda's advantage only comes in segments where Toyota has tradtionally ignored, like the performance small cars.
Business and products are tied. Toyota dominates because it has excellent products. It has money because people rush to buy their cars. Of course Toyota's never failing business brillance helps as well, but if the product isn't good, strategy won't hold.
Toyota strategy has traditionally focused on the more wealthy population. Making smooth, quiet, soft cars is just as good as (if not better than) making small sporty car that Honda does. But there IS a difference. Selling smooth quieter softer larger cars makes ALOT MORE money. Now that Toyota has more resource than it any automaker can reach with a 10 ft pole, has a customer base that dwarfs Hondas, and the bullet proof reputation and recognition, it can do whatever it wants. It bought out Daihatsu, took over Hino motor, grabs a junk of Yamaha motor. Now, it's coming back to the segment it has originally took little notice of, the small cars. Not as profitable as the other segments, but hey, when you already caught the big fishes, it's time to reel in the small ones. With $20 billion, buy out some other company's racing team, get involved in the racing (Toyota just beat Honda in the Houston CART racing, FYI), pump more money into the research, hyride system, fuel cell, digital cars, pump out some fun and young appealing products, take over a competitor or two... the power of all that money...
So it's 7 years...not 3 !!
About Land Cruiser/LS400/GS400 etc...that's what I was saying. Honda doesn't have any product in that category.
TL is selling more than combined sales of ES300-GS300 & GS400. TL Type S would make t more worse if it comes to this market.
Despite limited production Odessey is selling more than Sienna. (Even in Japan it has just overtook Sienna: First time in history in Japan Honda model sold more than Toyota model)
Civic sales more than Corolla(almost 100,000) despite corollas more fleet sales.
Accord camry sale almost equal.
S2000, was ranked 1st by Edmunds against the Jerman roadsters which cost atleast 10-15K more than it.
Honda had to fight with pro-Toyota/Nissan Govt officials when it started.
There is no comparision between Toyota Honda when it comes to CASH or resources as toyota is very rich. That's good for share-holders, I don't know whether it helps consumers....
NO AC NO Cruise Control & NO Noise reducing materials to make it as light as possible.
Large Brakes, Different manifold, Hand assembled engine, Hand polished intake.
It is a race ready, still street legal car.
It is made such that it would keep going around the race track without any problem for a whole day, without or with minimal brake fade with a very tight grip.
So Wenyue: GT-S is not at all close to Type R.
Its exact match(10hp advantage) over GS-R which is 7 year old designed engine
I heard that to design Gt-S engine Toyota used YAMAHA's bike-racing Guru (can't remember the name)
It's not that Toyota can't produce such engines it is just that they never did !!
Toyota's prius gives 45-52mpg (Don't know exact fig) Civic HX is better practical choice then.
As for integra, Prelude, that's what I was saying. That's areas where Toyota ignored.
TL is not even in the same class as the GS. Stop trying to compare apple to oranges. Hell, how about $10K Toyota Echo out sell your Honda S2000. Fair comparison too then. Also, correction, ES300 + GS300/400 out sell your TL. Just want to correct you.
How about Celica out sell your Integra, Prelude, and NSX combined.
Odyseey out sell Sienna. First time you say? Wow, after losing to Toyota winning Honda for 30 some years? Just shows you how weak Honda really is. You forgot to mention that Toyota Vitz took that title right back easily. Toyota's Vitz easily outsell Honda's counter part (called "life"?, what a name). Good for Toyota, bad for Honda. Toyota market share = 42.3% and increasing. Honda, only 25% of that. Nobody beats Toyota popularity in Asia.
Corolla vs Civic. You forgot to mention that Corolla out sell Civic world wide. Corolla is the best selling car in the ENTIRE automotive history. It's called the World's Car. Toyota advantage (gobal is more important than local). Good for Toyota, bad for Honda.
S2000, again, there is no Toyota counter part. Honda only have advantage IF Toyota has no counter part. Same as Toyota Landcruiser. It's been named the king of SUV. But that means little in Honda vs Toyota if the other doesn't have a counter part.
Come to think of it. More people buy Toyota than Honda in Asia (400% more), Europe (200% more), Toyota still sells more CARs (never mind trucks) than Honda in north America. Oh, I forgot Toyota also wins in Africa, but I don't think that matters.
Honda had to fight pro Toyota/Nissan government? Think gain, pro-NISSAN government maybe. Toyota was a small fish at that time. Nissan ruled, but Toyota's strategy triumphs. Some analysts even risked to say that Toyota almost never makes an mistake.
Toyota products are top notch. But unlike Hondas, until recently, they are seldomly targeted at sports oriented population (they are the smaller population and has less money to be made). Honda has nothing that's as quiet or as smooth as the Toyota counterpart. And that's why Toyota products sells so well, you may not think highly of them because they are not all sporty, but the majority of the people love them. And that's good for CONSUMER and SHARE HOLDERS alike. And that's what made Toyota the bigger success story of the two company in comparision here -- aim for the majority, not the niche based sports market.
Toyota GT-S did have Yamaha involvement. But don't forget, Toyota OWNS a part of Yamamha motor. So it IS Toyota's production.
P.S. Honda's using another company's fuel stack for their fuel cell prototype. Why, can't they come up with their own fuel cell? Toyota did.
Prius is a 5 seater. It's been out in 1996 (as a 1997 model). U.S version get's 52 miles (since it's tuned for highway driving), Japanese Prius get's 66 mpg. Civic HX doesn't get anything close to that milage.
Type R won't seath a little after a complete field day. it's rack ready car with Hand-assembled components. So it IS & YEARS !!
Toyota winning over Honda for 30 years ???
Wenyue: Why are u ignoring facts ?? Honda didnot produce cars until Toyota was a major player in Car Segment in Japan. Honda is yongest of the larger Automakers.
I think we haven't left anything to disucuss on Camry/Accord that's why taking pleasure to discuss such things !!
Prius: 70HP car tuned for Highway driving ???
Type R won't sweath a little after a complete field day. It's track/race ready car with Hand-assembled components. So it IS 7 YEARS !!
Toyota winning over Honda for 30 years ???
Wenyue: Why are u ignoring facts ?? Honda didnot produce cars until Toyota was a major player in Car Segment in Japan. Honda is yongest of the larger Automakers.
I think we haven't left anything to disucuss on Camry/Accord that's why taking pleasure to discuss such things !!
Prius: 70HP car tuned for Highway driving ???
I know it would be more difficult for Honda to be independent as the time passes but I pray that they should remain independent.
S2000 Is sold out for this & next years half prodcution !!
One more TL IS outselling ES300 + GS Series this year.
~Milind
Toyota winning over Honda for 30 years? well, that's a stretch. But Toyota did win over Honda for at least more than a dozen years. Before you call me ignoring the facts, why don't you look at the size of Toyota when Honda joined the forray? Have you even looked? Don't try to tell me about TOyota's history, I know it! When Honda went from making motorcycle to cars 1962, Toyota was a small entity, making only 0.23 million cars a year. Yeah, that's a major player all right. Toyota was nothing back then, Nissan was the undisputed the king back then, and Mitsubishi towered over Toyota's size. Too bad they all fell to Toyota's strategy later. Check out the history for yourself.
Honda is a mid-sized automaker. It's not major by any means. It only seems major to you because it has devoted all of it's resource to the U.S. It counts on the U.S for 80% of it's operatioal income. It's not major anywhere else.
Oh, Toyota's MR-Spyder also sold out it's production. When it arrived on the market, the whole supply was gone in 2 months. You can't buy it even if you want to.
Also, all data provided by autosite.com.
TL, year to date, 45,507
ES300 + GS = 46,927
TL does not outsell ES300 and GS. Again why are you comparing GS to TL? They are entirely differen cars. If that goes, then Celica beats S2000 9 times over. But again, not in the same class there.
As for Insight vs Prius. Prius is a 5 seater, you can use it for anything a family car do. Insight is a joke. 2 Seater? Sure it gets 70 mpg. Why not make it 1 seater, you might get 100 mpg. 1/2 seater would get you 200 maybe? Prius is the real car. Funny how it's arrived 3 years ahead of Honda's. Oh, and next year Honda is making a hybrid Civic, but Toyota is making a hybrid minivan. Seems like Honda still a bit behind.
Sorry about TOyota vs Honda. It's just when come people make unfounded statements like "Honda beats Toyota", I just have dispprove it.
Forget about Toyota being the richer company. How about which company has more buyers instead? How about better line up? A brighter future to support it's customers?
They copied GS-R exactly in profile. Gave modern playfull sytling. So Gt-S is Toyota's version of GS-R after 7 years !!
GS-R
Horsepower: 170 hp @ 7600 rpm
Torque: 128 ft-lbs. @ 6200 rpm
Horsepower: 180 hp @ 7600 rpm
Torque: 133 ft-lbs. @ 6800 rpm
Type R:
Horsepower: 195 hp @ 8000 rpm
Torque: 130 ft-lbs. @ 7500 rpm
Type R has 8500 redline !!!!
From figures it's quite clear that they had GS-R in mind while designing the engine
Toyota wouldn't pay more to engineers to make 195 hp with handpolished, hand-assembled, high intake engine bcos of they are better business orieneted company !!
~Milind
what about double wishbone suspention
& much better manual xmission of GS-R
Hey enough of GS-R & GT-S !!
Read my experience of
~Milind
Again, Toyota knew what they need to beat. Now if u give 1.8 Litre engine to Honda & ask them to make better hp/torque than Celica, they will ofcourse do it. As they are getting 240HP from 2.0 Liter engine !!! Honda gets 160 from 1.6 !!
Straight to 180 from 1.8. Si also came before Celica !!
So live with this too. Toyota came up with an engine after through study of GS-R's engine !!:)
It's not at all bad, copying GS-R's engine has really helped them !! -:)
Acura also studies MB/Lexus before coming up with MDX....
~Milind
Honda first came out with VTEC. Toyota then topped with VVTL-i, and now we are waiting for Honda to come out with it's VTEC-i. It's not going to end.
Strickly speaking. Toyota has not paid attention to small sports cars. There is very little money to be made in it. And the buying population is small. So the profit margin is thin, and market potential is small. That's why companys tend to avoid them.
Honda is realizing that as well. So they discountinued the Si. They will also leave only the Prelude behind, and has only the Integra in the place. So the 3 small sports cars will be left with 1. The Civic gets a slow revving, relatively underpowered 1.7L instead of the industry standard of 120+ hp 1.8L, also losing the double wishbone suspension and a more numb steering.
It would appear that Honda and Toyota are crossing each other. Toyota going for the smaller market segements after consolidating the wealthy mainstream. Honda is trying to leave the niche products behind and got a piece of the meanstreamn pie and some of that money Toyota has already made off with.
Oh, have you see the new Toyota Sequia? I think that's Toyota's answer to Honda's attempt with MDX. It's a little more powerful than the MDX (245 vs 240 hp), but it will also seat 8 (instead of MDX's 7). Priced probably little below MDX's $35K (the Tundra, which the sequoia is based has a MSRP about $30K). Highlander is also arriving, the Toyota badged version of the RX300 that both invented and swept the market.
I think Honda will have a tough time to compete with Toyota's forte in medium and large vehicles. And Toyota has a tough cookies on their hands trying to crack Honda's hold on small sports cars. Both gotten to those market after the enemy has consolidated their position, and it's going to be a uphill fight. We will see.
Facts:
The Camry costs about $3000.00 more than the Accord.
The Camry is equipped with any ashtray, the Accord is not. (Accord owners who are smokers may have an ashtray installed as a dealer option.)
The Accord comes equipped with folding driver and passenger side mirrors. The Camry does not.
The Camry comes equipped with heated side mirrors. The Accord does not.
The Accord comes equipped with Homelink garage door/gate opener/light switch. (Very convenient!) The Camry does not.
The Accord comes eqipped with steering wheel flush mounted remote audio controls. (Very convenient!) The Camry does not.
The Accord comes quipped with a double pocket center console. The Camry does not.
The Camry has the option (at cost) of *factory installed* 16 inch alloy wheels. The Accord does not.
The Camry comes equipped with a trunk liner. The Accord does not.
The Accord comes equipped with side tool pockets on each side of inside trunk. The Camry does not.
The Accord comes equipped with driver and passenger rear seat door map pockets. The Camry does not.
The Camry comes equipped with a 60/40 split rear folding seat. The Accord's rear folding seat is not split.
The Accord comes equipped with stearing wheel flush mounted cruise controls. The Camry's cruise controls are not flush mounted.
The Accord offers simultaineous viewing of one of the two odometers and total vehicle milage. The Camry does not.
The Accord's moonroof control is mounted on the dash. The Camry's moonroof control is mounted on the overhead.
The Accord offers inside chrome door openers. The Camry does not.
The Accord offers a dampened opening and closing of the sunglass holder. The Camry's is non-dampened.
My Opinions:
The Accord's stereo and ventilation controls are more easily reached as they are mounted high and above the shifter. The Camry's are controls are located lower and in front of the shifter.
The Accord offers larger front/rear windshields, providing a better field of view than the Camry.
The Accord offers more logical "up/down" door locks. The Camry's door locks are "forward/reverse".
The Honda has a *much* nicer looking dash; the Camry's dash design is clearly dated.
The Camry has nicer looking tailights.
Both are without doubt beautiful cars, with the Accord offering far smoother lines; the Camry is *anything* but "sexy".
Winner ($3000.00 price difference aside): Honda Accord!
The Honda Civic Si will be back in a couple of years.
The Prelude won't disappear completely, it's suppose to be merged with the next generation Accord Coupe. I even heard rumors that the Integra 4-door may eventually come back as a upper level Honda Civic 4-door.
The Toyota/Honda competition is probably the most fierce in the auto industry.
Honda had lock on VTEC for 8 years (patent) so Toyota came up with vvt-i after those 8 years. (I am not 100% sure when Toyota came up with it but I think it was after all these 8 years of VTEC: Honda Patented it in 89)
Even BMW came up with VANOS *after* patent expired !!
2)
2001 Civic has vtec-i. it's not in drawing board.
Toyota didn't *TOP* VTEC they merely copied it & did some huggling act with naming -:) Toyota's version deosn't do anything at lower rpms but they call it intelligence.
3)
Honda has used 3-stage VTEC in CL Type S.
which is giving 260 BHP AND 232 Torque peak for 2000rmp range. It's a masterpiece.
4)
Honda didn't discoutinue Si. It is sold before it comes to dealership. They don't have 1.7 Si ready for this launch with 1.7 litre, Different Suspension. It will join Civic sometime soon.
5)
Civic didn't get slow-revviving engine as u say. It achieves peak figures at low rpms but it still IS high-revviving
6)
Industry standard for small cars is defined by Honda Civic & not by *OTHERS* -:) So the idustry is trying to match Civic with high output engines.
But hey EX still makes 127HP !!
7)
Numb Steering on Civic *NO*. It is more precise than before. It has quicker ratio than 2000.
I did test drive when the first lot came to the dealer. (I have developed a very good relationship with the internet manager by giving him many constomers -:) )
Toyota Sequia: If it has MORE of everything than MDX then wouldn't it going to have MUCH MORE everything than the RX300 !!
Thanks,
Also, 16" alloy wheel is standard on Camry XLE at no extra cost.
Camry has JBL premiums sound system. Accord does not.
Camry has day time running lights, reducing the accident rate. Accord does not.
Camry has CD player standard on all trims. Accord doesn not.
You can customize Camry to your exact specification (although some odd combination might require you to wait 4 week for delievery). Accord require you to buy a trim, whether you want to pay for some of the options or not.
Many luxury equipments are available on the lower trims. Power driver stead and key less entry is available on the 4 cylinder LE, some even on CE. Accord does not.
Camry has a full size spare tire, so you can keep driving instead of have to drive to a garage, especially nice if you blow a tire on the weekends. Accord has a small temp tire, you can't drive on it except for emergencies.
Lots of stuff talked about here are just nit picking. TLots of personal opinion there. I like the more logical forward/reverse door opener on the Camry. With your hands at rest, you can open the door with one touch. You don't have to twist your wrist to open the door like the Accord's switch make you do. Flush mounted cruise control. Accord's cruise control become out of reach as you turn the wheel, Camry's cruise control allow you access it even as you turn the wheel, down right useful. Position of the dash, ah, all nit pickings. But to each his own, what ever you like.
But one thing, Accord offer smoother lines? Accord has far more folding edges than Camry. Camry has the smoother lines. Accord is the more boxy looking car here.
Quieter, smoother, softer, more fitting as the family car that's the purpose of cars in this class.
The winner: Toyota Camry. (But your opinion is valid for you as well. Again, to each his own.)
doesn not : on all
EX has 6 Disc In Dash Cd Changer !!!
Purchasing price is not MUCH smaller as u say wenyue...If MSRP differ 3000, invoice differs by 2500 !! So it's not MUCH smaller.
Forward/Reverse is more logical ??? Common Wenyue
Up/Down is more logical. Centre locking on Camry is also confusing(as noted by edmunds long term)
It's perpedicular to locks !! U don't have to twist ur hand Wenyue, just raise left hand slightly & 'up' the centre locking !! Up/Down which is parallel in Accord to actual locks !!
Why would anybody turn wheel so much AND access cruiuse control ?? Wenyue: Last some of the posts you seem to be slightly unreasonable. On highways while u change lanes, Accord's wheel being precise & variable assisted needs slight turn so cruise control is always accessible...!!
Why in the hell anybody would like to access cruise control while doing 90 degree turn ???
Position of the dash ?? Nitpicking...It IS Better in Accord & there is more usefull place below the dash.
Wenyue For ur Info: All 2001 Accords have CD Player !! Smart Airbags, Smart Side Airbags optional on LX. EX have 6 disk changer in dash !!
All Accords have immobilizer which camry except XLE doesn't have (correct me if I am wrong, I am not sure)
Bosy looking car: ?? Both have equally 'good' styling
with Accord giving VERY GOOD visibility with blind spot almost non-existent, Camry has a much bigger blind spot.
Spare tyre won't cost $2500...wouldn't it ??
Toyota dealer's customer service rating is pretty low, but so is Honda's. Glad to hear that you found some good eggs out there among all the bad ones.
Honda's inflexable car offering is what scratched them off my shopping list. And of course, the horrable treatment I recieved at Suburban Honda in Ann Arbor also made a bad impression. Finally, I ran into a good Toyota sales manager at Ralph Thayer's Toyota that gave me straight, no trick salesmenship and even beat all the competitors by more than $250 dollars.
Edmund's quote helped alot. I read through their shopper's advice section, and saw through quite a few tricks as a result, and even managed to get my hands on some of that Dealer Hold back money.
A good deal is how you make it. Shop around and you will find the best deal around. I shopped every Honda, Toyota, Nissan, and Mazda dealer within 40 mile radius of Ann Arbor (mostly on the phone back and forth). It really pays off, Smart Shopper forumn is full of stories of people getting good deals, and $500 to $1000 below invoice is not unheard of for both Accord and Camry.
Blind spot IS there Wenyue: Having fewer accidents doesn't help it. It just shows the Camry drivers attitude & age(older population) in general (Safe, slow, quite, Put on the cruise in cities too & go to slip -:)
Cruise Control: When u turn, ur both hands are suposedly on steering wheel, then it would be easier to use Accord's Cruise, U cant reach Camry's cotrol as ur both hands are on steering !! So which should be Accord's advantage wenyue is giving it to Camry !! -:)
Now Nitpicking:
Accord:
Centre Locking: Up Down, Vertcile
Lock: Up Down, Verticle, So coherent with cetre locking, ergonomically logical. Also Centre locking very close to hand just lift finger 1-1/2 inch & raise it.
Camry:
Locks: fwd/revers
Centre locking : perpedicular to fwd/reverse action which is cinfusing & demand that u should know which way to press to lock/unlock.
Regarding SI: They didn't DROP it, it will take time with 1.7 & new setup. U said they DROPPED it to go Mainstream which was twisted truth.
Also 2001 Civic does handle well, much better than the mushy corolla & Sentra (Even SE is very soft) Mazda handles very well but in upper trim.
Wenyue: Revievers say that "New engine doesn't need to be revved as 1.7 gives better power at lower rpms" that doesn't mean that the new engine can't be revved !! Please don't infer incorrectly from such comments.
Double wishbone is superior to Mc Sturt but All BMWs, Mazdas & Porsche use it -:) !! They used it to make more room & make civic more crash worthy.
Ofcourse double wishbone should have been there. but it's not a move to be main-stream. Wenyue U can't expect porsche/BMW in this price segment.
LX-V6 is not sold in the numbers as LE-V6. EX V6 outsells more than 3-1 to Lx-V6 (as per my dealer) which sounds very reasonable. I don't see many LX-V6 on road(rare) but there are a lot of EX-V6.
U can't get a very good deal(at invoice) AND order it from factory as they are eager to sell the cars on their lot & not order a new one.
After owning it for 3.5 months, I know I made the right choice. (Well, until tried that Acura CL with my sister last week!)
Here are some items to consider:
The Accord EX-V6 comes with flush mounted steering wheel audio controls, a *major* convenience! One does not have to take their eyes off the road to change radio stations, CD songs, or volume. Once you get used to this item, it's hard to live without.
The Accord EX-V6 comes with built in Homelink garage door opener, security gate opener, or other remote operated device, total of three all together. Major convenience.
The Accord EX-V6 *IS* $3000.00 less than the Camry XLE-V6 (best value package installed). I bought my 2001 Honda Accord EX-V6 for 23,400. Can you purchase a Camry XLE-V6 (best value package) for that?
The Accord offers simultaineous viewing of one of the two odometers and total vehicle milage. The Camry does not. This is a nice feature, you don't have to toggle back and fourth, taking your eyes off the road, to see for instance, how many miles you've driven since last fill up.
The Accord's stereo and ventilation controls are more easily reached as they are mounted high and above the shifter. The Camry's are controls are located lower and in front of the shifter. Another (though perhaps not major) advantage to the Accord.
The Honda has a *much* nicer looking dash; the Camry's dash design is clearly dated. This may be a matter of opinion, but I honestly find it hard to believe that anyone would not like the Accord's layout much better. Again, my opionion.
Another matter of opionion is the outside appearance. The Accord clearly has racier styling, at least to my eyes. Edmonds went so far as to call the Camry a "grocery getter". Though I understand everyone has their own idea of what beauty is.
Couple of things for Toyota: The Camry does offer a quiter ride, no doubt. This is not to say the Accord does not offer a quiet ride, but Camry is quieter. Camry XLE-V6 (best value package) comes 16" alloy wheels. Wish Accord EX-V6 came with these. Are you listening Honda??
Food for thought. A few years ago I went out and purchased a new Nissan 4x4 pickup. I *loved* my Nissan! I would get in on discussions such as this, and naturally, I'd defend my Nissan. When I bought my Nissan, I made the mistake of not shopping around for comparable vehicles; I just went out and bought it. Finally, someone challenged me to go to the Toyota dealer and sit in a new Toyota 4x4. I did this. What happened was, I came away dismayed! The good folks in the discussion group were right!!! The Toyota pickup was much nicer than my Nissan, same year models compared, comparable options. Price difference was not much. A year later I sold my Nissan, and bought a new Toyota, still have it and love it. I say this because I don't want anyone here to think I'm some anti-Toyota person, quite the contrary. Toyota makes a quality product, period, there's no changing my mind about that.
But, the point I'm trying to make is when one compares the Camry XLE-V6 (best available value package), with the Accord EX-V6, they're almost hard to compare, IMHO.
I'll pass this challenge on to anyone who reads this: Go to your Honda dealer, and sit in EX-V6. Be sure it's the V6 model, because this will have all available factory options installed, and is most comparable to the Camry XLE-V6 (best value package). Look at and feel the car, look at the price. Tell me what you think.
All three of them are absolutely wonderful cars. I don't think you can really go wrong with any of them. What it comes down to is price, performance, and styling.
1. Maxima - price..I'm sure it's higher than the other two cars, but you get a lot of performance for the money, ie. 222 hp, 217 lbs/ft torque. Of the three, I'd say Maxima has the best performance. As for styling...some people say it's ugly, some say it's cool,....I used to think it was funky, but now it's more unique. When one drives by....you know it's a maxima.
2. Camry - the energizer bunny comes to mind here. Price for a camry i think falls in the middle of the three cars. You can option it up and it'll cost a lot more of course. Performance.. I can't say for sure. I've never driven their V6 before. As for the V4 engine... the power is adequate. If you're looking for a family car, it "should" suffice. However, in my parents camry...when you load it up with stuff in the trunk and start hauling 4 or 5 people...V4 isn't going to cut it. As for styling...I don't get toyota. They can make really cool looking styles like the Celica, and yet..the camry looks as plain as a tomato soup can. Absolutely no personality in it's styling. The best styling the camry had was way back in 92, 93 timeframe.
3. Accord - price?...probably has the biggest range in prices. Performance? ...not too bad from what i hear from my brother...but the same problem arises when you start loading the car up. The accord definitely looks a lot better than the camry...no doubt about it.
Interior - Maxima has the best, followed by Accord, then Camry. They're all good and very functional, but in terms of classy looks...Maxima is nice (this is the 2000 maxima i'm talking here). Also...I think (not sure) Maxima has the biggest interior room of them all.
So....Udaya...you want a family sedan. You gotta figure out what you want in a car.
I think Maxima is targetted to those that need a "family" car, but wish they had a sports car....like me. Take a look at the Maxima SE and the car is basically a wanna-be sports car....with 4 doors. They throw in an engine that can perform like a sports car.
The Camry...is your typical family sedan..the..I don't want to be noticed car. The plain jane of the three. Except...underneath the skin...the car is rock solid. Nothing in the camry stands out, but everything is very good.
The Accord. ...comparison wise...it's very similar to the camry but with better looks.
Also there's the issue of popularity. Some yearly survey about stolen cars have the Accord and Camry at the top of their lists...every year. The maxima is probalby somewhere up there in the list...but I read that that number has fallen considerably since they started putting in microchips in their keys. (you need the chip there to even start the car....period. only drawback is that it costs about $200 to replace a key....but you get 2 1/2 keys to start 1/2 = valet key).
The only thing you can do is test drive all three of them. Preferably on the same road, and driving it the same way. one last note on the maxima...you need to compare the SE separately from the other two trims GXE,GLE. Why? The SE has quite different handling than GXE or GLE. It almost feels like a different car.
Good luck!
All these cars have auto,ac,abs,cruise,power everything,6-cd changer, moonroof, 15' alloy wheel,keyless entry,traction-control,v6 engine,full leather.
All prices are invoices only
Accord:
EX V6: $22,774
(The LX V6 cant even be configured with the above
specs, so no comparison for it).
Camry
LE V6: $23,538
Including these options:
-auto transmission
-Value package 5 + Leather,
-power moonroof
-15'alloy wheel
-traction control
XLE V6: $25,033
Including these options:
-Value package #2+Leather,
-6cd changer
-traction control
Advantage of Camry XLE vs Accord EX:
- side airbag
- JBL Premium Speaker
- 16' alloy wheel
- DTRL
Advantage of Camry LE vs Accord EX:
- JBL Premium Speaker
- DTRL
JBL Premium Speaker cost around $300, side airbag cost $300, 16' alloy wheel around
$300-400 (my guess), DTRL cost $50(my guess).
Total difference:
--> Accord EX V6 with Camry LE V6: $400 (approx)
--> Accord EX V6 with Camry XLE V6:$1000 (approx)
I probably missed something, but thats too give a general view of the price difference.
death rate: do you have any data to back up your critisim of Camry's better safety? Can you show me the statistics behind your claim? You are just guessing. Real world data supports only 1 conclusion: Camry has fewer accidents and fewer injury and death. Your guessing behind the result is just what it is, a guess. No data to support your guess, and still doesn't change the the end result.
cruise control: how can you reach the cruise on the Accord during turning? Suppose you turn the steering wheel 120 degress to the right, the cruise is at the top of the steering wheel. You can't use it. You make a right turn, now the cruise control is on the left side of the steering wheel. Now how are you going to use the Cruise on the Accord? It's clearly Camry advantage, the cruise is always at where it should be, and you can always reach it. You turn the wheel with your left hand, using your right hand to hold the wheel at the desired angle. That's common practice, and your right hand is always at 4 oclock, and the cruise is just as they where always there to be adjusted by your right ring figer.
Nit picking:
Camry forward and back is fullying logical. If you sit in front of a table or a drawing board. Which way is up? It's FORWARD. Which way is down? BACKWARD. It doesn't get much more logical than that. And you don't even have to move your hand. Accord actually require you to move your hand, especially the locking mechanism. Camry's only illogical to you because you have been driving an Accord for so long. Same is said vice versa. Think about it.
Si. They did drop it. Honda has annoyed that they have no plan for it in the near future (that means next year or two at least). 2000 Civic had Si, 2001 does not. That's called dropping it. Same for the Civic hatchback.
Civic out handle the new Sentra SE? It handles no better than the old Civic after losing that double wishbone suspension. And the 2000 Civic lost horriably to the Sentra in performance test. Edmund had a recent comparions. The Sentra totally out handled the Civic, so did the protege. Even the Corolla had better performance score. But corolla is not meant to be a sporty car, it's quieter and smoother than anything else. And dispite the better performance score, the Corolla is uncomposed at handling limits, so I will drop it. But Civic out handle the Sentra? Dream on. The Sentra beat even the VW Jetta, and Protege is almost as good. The handling crown goes to Sentra without a doubt.
Also, as for slow revving Civic engine. Please read the review again "But the new engine doesn't beg to be revved as the 1.6-liter did, and unless the aftermarket is creative, it may never be as potent." Also read the latest issue of Consumer Guide 2001 shopping guide. They stated "the engine is slow to rev...."
Double wishbone suspension, as you said "should be there". But it's not. It's been the major reason why rice boys choose it. Because it's so easy to tune. The structs are much harder to tune by a commoner. Besides, is doublewish bone suspension suppose to be the Honda's personal mark? Now it's taking of it's signature design for a more mainstream approach. You can't deny that.
Also, I see more LX-V6 (the one that only has a V6 badge, but nothing else) than EX-V6. My experience is differen than yours.
Also, you can definitly get a good deal ordering from the factory. Read the smart shopper forumn. There are more than a few examples of ordering from the factory and a good deal too. Dealer will want to sell the cars on their lot, but they are not going to stop you from ordering (that would probably get their licence revoked). ordering from that factory also puts 100% of the dealer hold back on the table, since there is no floor cost for the dealer to keep the car. I helped my boss/family friend get his Toyota Sienna for $800 over invoice back in 1999 (when it was going more like $2000 over invoice), and he ORDERED his van from the factory. A perfect example of ordering the car and get a good deal too. I then helped another colleague do the samething 3 months later, another factory order. Liufei did some nice number crunching. So thank him for saving us some time.
I have to disagree regarding factory order. Its possible to get good deal (such as in your case), but it seems dealers will go through all kind of trick and method before allowing you to do that. Ain't worth the time if you ask me.
agreed. Stereo control on the EX-V6 is nice. But only EX-V6 has it, others do without. But Camry's cruise control is more logical, clearly. And that's for all trims, and that cancles out Accord advantage.
I totally disagree about the dash control though. Accord's sloping dash makes it hard for people to reach the control, especially if you are long legged. Camry's control are more easily within reach. That's an advantage to Camry. I like Camry's dash better. But you are entitled to your opinions.
Again, looks outside is subjective. I like the touch of chrome on Camry. It's not as "racy", but that's not the purpose of the car.
Again, I don't want people to think I'm anti Honda. My family has owned 2 Hondas in the past, Civic and Accord for my mom. (she wrecked the 91 Accord not too long after though). Both of them were used but proved to be very reliable cars during the ownership. And beside little things, we can't really complain. My mother was satisfied with the cars.
My father and I were sort of a Toyota fan from the beginning. Sine my first car was a Toyota clone. And my father's severl Toyotas all proved to be totally trouble free. He made sure we always owned at least 1 Toyota because when all else fails, at least we have one car (not that all else failed often). We also owned a Nissan Sentra 200SX, my old man loved that one (besides trouble starting it in the winter). Before that, we once even owned a Datsun before they changed their name to Nissan. A Mazda also been in our prosession. All the japanese cars were reliable overall, and most of them were used (until my parents both finished grad school and both started working). My old man used drive a Chevy Chevette, that was a fix as you go car. After that, he had a most unfortunate brush with a used VW rabbit (talking about junk!). Then that old Datsun came along, what a difference, and no going back from then on. It's been Toyota/Honda/Nissan/Mazda ever since. I have been tempted by Ford's ultra low price, Hyundai's great value, but decided that following my old man's foot step and playing safe is the Asian tradition.
I think Camry XLE-V6 is little over priced. At $1000 difference, it's a little too much to pay for that extra luxury ride. But we don't plan on having kids yet, if we do, that $1000 quiet and soft ride might safe you a lot of headache. Again, how much is the luxury worth, that's up the the person.
But as the much lesser difference of few hundred dollars (which is totally insignificant at this price range) for all the most popular trims such as the LE and LE-V6, my nod has to go to the Camry.
The price difference is insignificant in most cases with XLE vs EX bit on the boarder line. Buy what you like.
How logical is perpedicular centre locking wrt to lock switch ?? It should have been(centre locking) also reverse/fwd to be logical. I am talking about centre locking switch which lock/unlocks all the doors. Currently its ergonomically irlogical in camry. U don't seem to get the point.
Accord Centre locking UP makes lock-sticks UP
DOWN makes those down...Camry it's either press on right side or left side to lock/unlock.
If u don't think Accords dash is *more* convinient & better looking than Camry then u r pretending to be not listening !!
Side Airbags ARE STANDARD on EX models which are **SMART**. Camry doens't have SMART Airbags not even as option. Even Accord LX has it.
THAT WAS A JOKE !!
Civic EX would have faired too good in that test.
Even Edmunds also mentions that, & that was 1996 Design !!
EX was $300 more than 17K barrier (MSRP !!)
but others were loaded above 17 ??
Also LX they tested was a RENTAL unit with some miles on it.
Please get real Wenyue.
Also Sentra (Normal) was found to be flaoty & tuned for good ride & not handling. Read its various reviews. & Si would out-handle many sports cars let alone Sentra SE !!
Edmunds test was like a 100m test having Carl Loius with a broken leg !!
See wneyue I am not getting resale/rental sales yet in the picture which makes u somewhat unconfortable!! -:) U didn't reply my post of KBBs report on Accord being 1K more in used car market which initially costs lesser !!
Does 2001 EXV6 come with 16" alloy wheels ??