BMW 5-Series Sedans

cdnpinhead

or you'll be compared unfavorably to a "72-year old female."

Sounds like they need a bunch more of those females to pump up the sales numbers.

ponytrekker

Definitely looks better in person than in pictures. Saw one today and definitely looked wicked with those huge run flat high performance tires.

kdshapiro

I happen to like the new 5 and 7 series and the direction they are going in. Give me a nice SMG/SSG setup, and with that I'm even willing to try I-drive, I have no feelings about it positive or negative.

But don't skimp on the basics of what it means to drive a BMW and make sure all this electronic componentry doesn't cause the car to end up in shop such that it becomes the downfall ov BMW. Make sure the stuff really works well. I'm willing to see BMW try things out, as long as it's cars are still the heart and soul of BMW.

karmikan

Lots of eloquent posts wondering why the need for iDrive and what problem is it supposed to solve. BMW are not alone in this electronic frenzy. How about Distronic Cruise Control (in case you fancy a nap on the highway and don't want to run into the guy in front) or Keyless-Go (substituting that nasty key with a nice modern transponder for no apparent reason). I don't know why this is happening but here's a bit of pure speculation:

1) The modern performance sedan can perform well beyond the average driver's capabilities. Put into perspective, a hot sedan of today could blow away a 1960's F1 race car in a straight line and in the twisties. So how much more performance makes sense for most buyers?

2) Lower-priced cars are closing the performance/safety/comfort/quality gap with premium sedans. In some cases the gap has been closed completely.

So what's a premium manufacturer to do to justify the premium status and premium price? The answer - "technology". So perhaps the only answer to the question "why?" is "because we can".

The problem with iDrive is that it actually detracts from the car instead of just being expensive t*ts on a bull.

kdshapiro

The technology has to have a form function to be successful. I haven't driven idrive as yet cause I'm too lazy to go to the dealer and therefore I don't know my opinion about the form/function of idrive.

But these electronic whizmos always start on the premium manufacturer before they trickle down. air bags, electric windows, HID headlights, traction control, ABS, double infinite variable intake/exhaust timing, SMG, adaptive headlights just to name a few from BMW and then there are the other electronic whizmos from the other manufacturers that are solving problems I didn't even know existed. So if the premium manufacturers doesn't adopt them and prove the concept and get the critical mass, they never trickle down.

Maybe the interface needs to be improved but somebody has got to be first.

riez

cdnpinhead... Brillant post. No wonder all the experts at MT, R&T, C&D, etc. who have panned iDrive couldn't figure it out. Even given months and thousands of miles. They obviously need to hire her.

ajayme

In case many of you don't know, guess what OS the iDirve is based on? Windows! I can see the new BMW's now, problem? Ctl, Alt, Del-then you're bck on the road again! Thanks, but no thanks-I'm very happy with my 2003 5 series and my 2003 A4-just the right amount of buttons!

beemer4me

"My point is that the "biased" aspect of the opinion is totally understandable. I mean, you buy a 2002 or 2003 %er and a new one comes. You love your BMW...how many would love the replacement? "
 
     Sorry, I see no logic in your argument whatsoever. You see,I own a 2001 Honda Odyssey. 2002 Odyssey comes along w/ 35 more hp, 5 speed auto instead of 4 speed. Do I hate the '02 because I have an '01 Odyssey? Heck no, I wish I had waited and bought the '02 instead of the '01.
Do I feel the same about the '04 530 and my '03 530? NO WAY, I'm glad I bought the '03. No so called "bias" here whatsoever- if you wanna see bias you can read plenty of it from someone associated w/ BMW who posts here all the time.

bmwwife

if your daughter is in a beauty contest and you have a vote, you vote for your e39, er, daughter.

Embrace the improvements.

cmnott

I actually do not see the logic of comparing two minivans that look identical. You missed the point entirely.

Let me try this another way. I have a Volvo S60 T5. This was a dramatic departure from the boxier S70. Many who had a 2000 S70 hated the S60 because it was so unlike the Volvo they became accustomed to. Now, it is widely accepted as the best looking Volvo.

The 5er is a radical departure from previous 5s which leaves the group who had the comfortable E39 feeling uncomfortable with the new styling direction because it is new.

I have found that those who do not have a 5 series like the styling more, it is virtually confirmed in thepost I have read in this forum from the daet that pictures were released.

bmwwife, that is a good point!

jb_shin

Reportely, BMW is considering moving to Linux-based OS for the next gen. I-Drive.

kdshapiro

I heard BMW was moving to Wind-ix.

ghomaz

I recently read somewhere (I think it was the British "Autocar" magazine) that complex cockpit control systems like BMW's iDrive could be outlawed by US safety legislators! Apparently this idea was raised in a discussion document published by the NHTSA. Anybody else hear/read about this?

div2

The NHTSA safty [non-permissible content removed] are looking at anything which could distact a driver's attention-nav systems, Tokyo-by-Night ICE displays, and of course the "simple and easy to use" I-Drive type control interfaces.

kdshapiro

They are also looking a making a manufacturer remove the simple to use radio interface and require all radio controls to be mounted on the steering wheel.

Next thing you know they'll make the manufacturers remove the rear and side view mirrors as the driver has to remove his/her eyes from the road to actually see in the mirror. And finally you will get a ticket if a cop catches you turn your head before a lane change manuever. Studies show looking before you turn is a major cause of accidents.

cdnpinhead

this stuff up.

Someday I'll own a BMW, but I'm not sure yet whether it'll be pre-04, post-XX, or one of these current electronic marvels. Of my last three (of four) vehicles that I've bought for myself, I made a conscious effort to de-content the vehicle from all the "bells & whistles" that were offered, and was very pleased.

The fourth had an automatic transmission, and none of us wants to hear that story again.

I want a manual, good suspension/handling, luxury appointments inside, a good audio system and almost nothing else.

The field is getting smaller.

Much smaller.

designman

Riez, is the M24 you refer to the 24-valve European version that has 34hp more? My knowledge of car specs is very shallow. This is the S38 I believe. Thanks for the book references and responses.

div2

E24 is the vehicle platform code; the original Euro M motor was an M88, the US got the S38. A Conforti chip will boost the power of the US spec motor to over 290 bhp, while torque is bumped up to 280 lb.ft.

ajayme

For those of you who are interested, the attached link is on the Microsoft site:
http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2002/mar02/03-04BMWpr.as- p

As an fyi the new Audi A8 MMi doesn't use Windows. There is some real interesting info out there on the web if you do a Google on iDrive.

habitat1

bmwwife:

Are you married to bmwseller? Embrace the improvements? What are they? I-drive is a gizmo. My parents had a talking dashboard in a 1970's vintage Chrysler. Thank goodness those weren't "embraced".

Remember, BMW is one of the few cars that appeal to real driving enthusiasts. Improve on THAT, I say, and keep the video games out of it.

cmnott:

I don't have a current 5-series, but I still don't like the new styling more. Interior or exterior. Could I live with it? Perhaps. But "living with" a aesthetically challenged 10% more expensive i-drive equiped 5-series isn't exactly what I expected from BMW.

P.S. One of our neighbors has a 1970's vintage 2002 tii that still runs great and all of the "buttons and guages" still work. How antiquated will a i-drive with 2003 vintage computer technology appear in even 5 years, let alone 25? I am all for "real" improvements, but I don't find much in the new 5 series that qualifies. Certainly not i-drive. Certainly not run-flat performance tires (everyone I know with them claims a dimishment in performance, shortening of tire life, more highway road noise etc.). I'm heading out tonight to test drive a 330i "Performance" equiped sedan. I still like BMW, but they are making it more difficult.

bmwwife

Maybe, you don't really know unless you use it yourself. This technology (i-drive)is here to stay because it makes good sense. Time will tell. If ride and drive performance is your thing then you'll still love the 'bimmer.

riez

cdnpinhead... You wrote, "I want a manual, good suspension/handling, luxury appointments inside, a good audio system and almost nothing else. The field is getting smaller. Much smaller."

Understand and concur. Too bad 'tis true. Unnecessary complexity, gadgetry, and gizmos rarely improve a car. Makes it more expensive, more likely to need repairs, and more likely to be a long-term ownership hassle.

I do want things that enhance a car's performance and safety. For performance, LSD a must. BMW has dropped this from all but M3 and M5. For safety: Xenon HID, side curtain airbags, seatbelt pretensioners, ABS/TC, EBD, and BA.

Need good engine (I6 or V8) and manual transmission with overdrive. Low ownership costs and good reliability also strong plusses.

Guess that is why I ended up with my IS300 manual. But I do miss my 540i6, though not when I'm driving the IS300.

iDrive does nothing to enhance the car's performance or make driving easier or more enjoyable. Adds cost, complexity, and possible long-term ownership issues.

And things like the screwy way to put the 745i into Drive or back into Park are complete insanity. When it takes a minute to do something this simple and forces you to unlearn everything, that is a huge step backwards. What is the saying, "One step forward, two steps backwards?"

bmwwife

that you've used the I-drive. Have you? Try it out sometime.

riez

bmwwife... If you want to have your eyes opened, do the BMW Drive for the Cure. You get to drive lots of different BMWs to benefit breast cancer research. I did it in 2002 when 745i came out. I drove BWMs for about 4 hours that day. Had a fleet of around 15 cars. Drove everything from Z3 2.5 to 325xi to 330Ci to 525i touring to X5 4.4 to 745i.

For all the other BMWs, I had NO trouble adjusting seats to perfection, setting climate control, using radio/CD (I brought my own CDs), etc. They worked naturally.

But the 745i was a mess. Remember loving the way the 745i drove, but hated trying to drive it. Had trouble adjusting seat. Couldn't work radio/CD player. They had to have an instructor show you how to get the car in Drive and then put it back into Park. Was the most frustrating experience. Magnificent car made a pain. Kept thinking what a joy it would be if only it was like the other 14 BMWs!

I'm 40, have an MBA, use a PC at home and work, know how to set my VCR to tape delay, balance my chequebook, and do my own taxes. They seemed simple compared to iDrive while driving!

cdnpinhead

the push-button transmission that Chrysler put in one of their products (DeSoto?) back in the '50's?

Didn't think so.

Really caught on, huh?

Well, automatics did, but the push-button feature certainly didn't. It's hard to sort the wheat from the chaff in the early days of new concepts.

I seek simplicity, but appreciate that others don't.

Beyond simplicity, I ABSOLUTELY REQUIRE reliability. Not negotiable.

bmwwife

I've participated in the Drive For The Cure myself....... not enough time to get the hang of the I-drive. Sounds like a couple of nuances kept you from appreciating the car. That's too bad.

warthog

Are you married to bmwseller?

riez

bmwwife... One drive of each of these cars told me a ton about how much the designers thought about the drivers who would use these cars. All the rest were natural and simple. Worked with the driver. Only one fought the driver. Forced the driver to conform to the designer's whims.

My local dealer let you drive any car as often as you wanted. Can't remember for sure, but think I drove the 745i at least twice. Maybe three times. (I also took repeat drives in the convertibles.)

ajayme

If you like it, Great! Remeber this is version 1 of a technology that may or may not catch on depending upon how many accidents get blamed on it and how reliable it is (so far there have been a number of software "upgrades" to it to improve reliability. Another aspect will be how many accidents are due directly or indirectly- this includes other GPS systems. I also did the same as Riez and did the Drive for the Cure. An otherwise nice driving car is marred by the distraction of an automotive "mouse". The MMI in the A8 is far superior to the iDrive as far as ease of use but as many of you have said- we have no use any for it! I'm sure BMWSELLER and his "wife" will keep defending it but time will tell!

m5power

Drove by the local BMW dealership this weekend and saw the new 530i- not bad looking at all, looks kinda agressive on the big tire/rim package, but $56K is insane for that car (pretty much fully loaded).

Also, I wish BMW would make a true stripper 545i and just add a great stereo. Forget power seats, heated seats, I-drive, Navigation, adaptive headlights, PDC, adaptive cruise control, FORGET ALL THAT CRAP. Just give me the great driving car, eliminate the doodads, big V8, manual transmission, nice E39 style driver-oriented cockpit, for $50K, and I'll buy it, no questions asked. But ask me to pay an extra $10K for that garbage, and then have to deal with potential electrical gremlins associated with it, what are you BMW, crazy?????

karmikan

In an idle moment at work I was looking through a pdf of the E60 owners manual. Pretty interesting stuff on iDrive. Say you were playing CD1 in your magazine and wanted to jump to CD5:

Old-fashioned method -
1) press the "5" button on CD player

New and improved -
1) press "Menu" button
2) move controller backwards to "Entertainment"
3) press controller to select
4) rotate controller until "CD" is displayed
5) press controller to select
6) rotate controller 4 clicks until "CD5" is displayed
7) press controller to select

Now that's progress.

cjs2002

Franlkly I like the I Drive system, I'm 20 years old and find it extreamly easy to use, one would believe you'd get used to the movements and motions it takes to use the I drive, just as you would get used to the motion of hitting the button to change through your channels... I agree with what BMW did.... I think it clears up space on the dash and adds in countless abilities to what they can do in a car. although I would much rather have linex running the programs rather than windows, but as long as it works I truely don't care. I hope they keep the idrive and I think it should also go into the 3 series, it would make the dash on that car become infinatly less clutterd.

m5power

To BMWseller and BMWwife: It's not that most of us can't become proficient with the Idrive; I just don't see the need for it. As karmikan said, just because you can eliminate a few buttons doesn't mean you should. Nothing wrong with just pressing a button to access CD#5. It's also fine to bury this in menus, etc, but don't call it a better system, just because it's newer and more nouveau.

3 acquaintances (out of 6) who have 7's, have had recurrent problems with their Idrive systems, requiring multiple visits to their dealers. 2 of those 3 have traded in their 7's for LS430's; the other for a S500. It's so unfortunate that BMW has marred a great driving machine with a frumpy exterior and the Idrive.

div2

"It's so unfortunate that BMW has marred a great driving machine with a frumpy exterior and the I-drive."
You nailed it; The overly complex controls DETRACT from the driving experience. At O'fest "97 I test drove a 540iA with NAV, I was trying to tune to a specific radio station. It's signal was just weak enough that "Seek" passed over it. I had to drill down through 2-3 screens to set tuning to "Manual". The NAV in the X5 4.6is I had for a couple of weeks was equally difficult to negotiate. As I noted at the time, I-Drive would have been an improvement(kind of like saying dead rats don't smell as bad as dead fish). That said, a simple radio with rotary knobs for volume and tuning is difficult to improve on-though I'm sure such a mundane layout would offend Mr. Bangles fine sense of avant garde innovation. As he likes to explain, he's taking us where we don't want to go.

designman

Karmikan, excellent post. If that doesn't say it, nothing does.

div2, thanks for reponses on M6. I'm dawdling with it. This means it'll probably be gone by the time I make my mind up. One of my concerns is that it's steal-me red. Driving a car like that around NYC is like Cindy Crawford walking through a jailhouse.

beemer4me

"The 5er is a radical departure from previous 5s which leaves the group who had the comfortable E39 feeling uncomfortable with the new styling direction because it is new.

I have found that those who do not have a 5 series like the styling more, it is virtually confirmed in thepost I have read in this forum from the daet that pictures were released"

     Apparently you are ignoring all the posts from those who never had an E39 (or a BMW for that matter),but bought one AFTER seeing the pictures of the new 5, including myself. Now where does THAT fit into your logic?
     Sorry folks to keep beating this horse, but its really starting to irritate me when smug know-it-alls think they can explain the dissapointment with the new 5 and disregard the opinions of those who dislike it. Many of those who dislike it have clearly outlined why and then others come along and try some home-spun psychoanalysis that we can all do without.
    Along the same lines, how soon before we get the likes of BMwfinanceguy,BMWsister,BMWmechanic
here trying to sell us the new 5?

bmwwife

You don't need it to drive the 5.

karmikan

You hit the nail on the head. I'm a part of the crowd who saw pics of the E60 and rushed out to buy an E39 (more than a year earlier than my planned purchase timeframe).

The same "you don't understand", pat-on-the-head logic has been applied to certain works of art for years. You're knowledgeable if you like it, you're a moron if you don't. Sorry, it doesn't work.

The E60 is controversial at best, ugly at worst. Some like or accept it, some don't. No amount of "you don't understand" posting is going to change that.

cmnott

Again, everyone has an opinion on the 5. On a purely aesthtetic opinion, many who do not like the new 5 have an older one. That is all I am saying.

I am not trying to convince anyone otherwise, just plot the remarks for those who like/don't like with those who have a current 5 and you get my drift. Whether they are right or wrong, ultimatley I couldn't care less. It is just a freaking observation. And yes, non bimmer owners like yourself, you don't even have one, but I don't care about what you think, I was simply making a point, for the last time, that those who have a 5 right now there seems to be an overly negative response to the new 5. Is that clear? Sheesh. I will leave the pschosis to others.

My name is cmnott, and I like the 5, I will leave the trolling to others.

warthog

"You don't need it to drive the 5."

Then why on earth did Bangle stick it on the console? Do we not need to adjust the HVAC or radio, or God knows what other functions it controls?

And by the way, wife, you still haven't told us if you're married to bmwseller. Or maybe you have.

billbrox

Perhaps the record will show a little spike in E-39 Sales after the E-60 photos came out. I was one of them and time WILL only tell, but this E39 purchaser is smilin' (not dialin').

Is bmwwife bmwseller's spouse?

bmwwife

Radio and climate operations can be accessed outside of the I-drive screen with more traditional style knobs and buttons that the overwhelmed will immediately recognize.

My spouse is not bmwseller.

mch2

bmwwife...If my daughter is in a beauty contest with Halle Berry I can vote for Halle and still love and appreciate my daughter's beauty. Admiration for one does not have to diminish admiration for the other. If the new 5 looked like an Aston Martin DB9 I could still love my E39 while looking forward to one day owning an E60. I do not like the way the E60 looks because I do not like the way the E60 looks not because I own a E39.

karmikan

You missed a key word in your post -

SOME "radio and climate controls can be accessed...."

BTW - being overwhelmed has nothing to do with my dislike of the iDrive concept and I assume the same goes for most of the people who post here (we're all using computers quite successfully). BMW seems to have wanted to clear up "clutter" on the E60 dash and has gone for form over function. This is a clear 180 from the historic philosophy that made them so desirable.

Maybe they should change their marketing slogan to "The Ultimate Gizmobile".

bmwwife

I like that but the car still does the basics better than any sedan; braking, handling, cornering. It's still the "ultimate" in a driving sense.

mch2.......maybe you don't have a daughter but if you voted for Halle Berry over her what would it be like if you had to tell her that you didn't vote for her? What would you tell your wife? "Oh, honey I appreciate our daughters beauty but I voted for someone else."{:

pat

That kind of come-hell-or-highwater-I-must-defend-my-choice "brand loyalty" is always a puzzle to me.

Seems like the true car enthusiast would be able to evaluate and appraise each vehicle on its own merits without feeling such a need to justify a personal choice previously made.

Just a thought...

tlmmhowell

Sorry to interrupt this very interesting and entertaining discussion, but has anyone bought a set of the Falken Ziex ZE 512 A/S tires for an E-39? Anyone have any experience with Falkens? Thanks.
Terry

snagiel

I guess it's been a while, but I do see some familiar names still hanging around. I'm glad to see the iDrive issue hasn't died, although I suspect it'll be controversial for a good long time...

Forgive my absence-induced ignorance, but Riez, an IS 300? What happened, man? How are you going to be able to talk down to all the six-bangers now?

pat

Hey snagiel! Welcome back. :-)

riez

snagiel... Moi? I love I6s. Remember, my wife had a 323ia. So an IS300 is a step up. And it has LSD!!! But I'm confident that sometime in '05 I'll find that perfect low mile red CPO '03 E39 M5 with my name written on it. I'm patient and can bide my time. (I just finally couldn't take the black on black 540i6. I'll never ever have another black car. And since she was getting near to being out of warranty, I chickened out.)