Lexus LS 400/LS 430

mcescher1

I have been posting messages regarding my efforts to decide between a 2004 or earlier Avalon and a 2005 LS 430. One issue for me is ambient noise, that is, sound level. I carefully measured levels using a decibel meter and report as follows: When both cars are parked in a quiet driveway and idling with the fan on the lowest position, the Avalon is quieter by 4 decibels. When the cars are driven on identical roads at identical speeds under identical weather and traffic conditions, the Lexus is quieter by about 2 decibels. In other words, absent the fan noise difference, the Lexus would be quieter by about 6 decibels. But the fan noise is of course part of the equation. I am surprised that Lexus spent so much effort in making the vehicle quiet, but neglected to notice the loudness of the fan.

nvbanker

That is interesting.

wwest

Typical problem with most modern day climate control systems. VW addressed the problem, fixed it, on the Touareg but I don't know of any other manufacturer who has.

Lots of folks simply lay a thick towel over the windshield defog/demist outlets to block the cooling airflow from the climate control system.

stomp32

As many of you have dealt with Lexus Customer Service, I thought I could get insight on how you think they might deal with this situation. I apologize for the long post.

Last June, my wife and I went to a Lexus dealership to buy an SC430 (I realize this is a forum for LS, but not too many posters on the SC board). We saw one in the colors we wanted, but it had almost 1500 miles on it. Asked the salesman why, he replied it was bought by a friend of the owner and the guy changed his mind and wanted another color, so the owner let him.

I asked the salesman if the car was still considered new, and he told us it was still new as it was never titled and I would be the first registered owner. We negotiated a price based on the mileage and also in consideration that the car was still "new".

Got to the financing part.... oh boy. I was signing the sales contract (after first checking that the "new/used" box was filled "new"), when the finance manager said he forgot to ask me to check that everything was spelled right. I told him he had spelled the address wrong, but couldn't we just manually correct it. He said that EVERYTHING had to be spelled right and took the contract back and printed up a second one. He and I signed the second contract and my wife and I took the car.

Several week ago I was looking to buy an 05 LS, and was considering trading in my SC. After reading many posts on here I thought it would be wise to run a CARFAX on the SC, just to make sure no surprises came up. Sure enough, it shows I am the second owner, with the original purchase occurring in April, 04.

Needless to say, I called the dealer and the general manager adamantly denied any wrongdoing. He went as far as to say that even if I was right, he didn't see how I was hurt by this. He stated three times that the car was a "rollback" and that it was in fact a new car. I knew this was untrue since I had confirmed with other dealers that a rollback is most certainly a used car. He ended the conversation by saying he was going to stop talking to me since he had other things to do.

I called my lawyer who in turn contacted the dealer asking what their policy on rollbacks were. Within a few days, the general manager sends me paperwork with my apparent signature on it indicating I acknowledged the car was used. Furthermore, I believe they sent Lexus financial the first sales contract with the new/used section altered to indicate "used". I base this on the fact that my initial loan statement from Lexus financial had the address spelled wrong, just as it was on the first contract. I have in my possession the second contract with the correct spelling. In hindsight, I should have made sure the finance manager tore up the first contract, but I never even suspected a thing.

Additionally, my registration has an April anniversary instead of a June one. The dealer somehow fudged this too because it took over five months to get the registration and license plates, and even then it was sent to the dealer instead of to me.

All in all, I'd have to say I've been had. Far too trusting because I never thought a Lexus dealer would ever pull such a thing. My lawyer says to try to get Lexus Customer Service to intervene first, but if they are unresponsive, we will take legal action. To their credit, after I explained it to a customer service rep, someone from Lexus called me back within two days and told me they take this matter very seriously and would investigate.

At this point, I have little hope for any resolution. The dealer will likely stone wall and I will have to go through a long legal fight. I wonder what other methods and tactics this dealer has used on unsuspecting buyers, and to how many? And they are a Lexus Elite dealer! Guess I know how much that means now.

Has anyone else gone through a similar situation, and if so, how did Lexus Customer Service respond? Thanks to all for letting me vent.

Just want to clarify I am not bashing Lexus the manufacturer. As a matter of fact I did purchase an LS, but from another dealer. And yes, it is a NEW car.

mcescher1

I notice that the steering wheel on the 2005 LS 430 is stiffer than other cars I drive, for instance the 2003 Avalon and the 1994 Infiniti. Is this in the nature of the vehicle or can it be adjusted? Thanks for your replies.

mcescher1

If a 2005 LS 430 comes with 18 inch wheels, can I have the dealer replace them with 17 inch wheels, or is the wheel size somehow integrated with other aspects of the vehicle so as to make this impossible or problemmatic? Thanks for your replies.

mcescher1

According to the Lexus website, adaptable air suspension has four settings. However, I just test drove an ultra luxury LS 430 with adaptable air suspension, which has only two settings: normal and sport. Does anyone know what this is all about? Thanks for your replies.

michael_mattox

stomp:

If the dealer is trying to peddle the first contract as the correct one...Your second contract would obviously prevail ...PROOF...You have a contract with the correct address....It seems, that to a reasonable person that varifies your story of what happened.

What reasonable excuse would he have for there being two contracts....I believe in a dispute, legally the person that writes the contract is responsible for any mistakes.

He can't say you have the only contract...

He can't say you have the 1st contract...Because if yours is the first, there would be no reason for a second.

So all he can say is he realized that he checked New by mistake on the first contract...but...There would also be that pesky wrong address that supports your version of what happened...He had to have changed BOTH the Address and the New/used on the second contract.

UNFORTUNATELY THE DEALERS AREN'T ALWAYS AS GOOD AS THE CARS.....Keep pushing with Lexus...Maybe a letter from your attorney to their corp headquarters in Japan with copies to Lexus USA and your State Attorney Generals Office and the Dealer would move things along.

Good Luck....

syswei

Taking it up with corporate-level Customer Service is the right approach, and hopefully will work out for you.

I would add to Michael Mattox's suggestion that a letter could also go the the Better Business Bureau. Maybe you could also write a letter to the editor of your local newspaper about fraudulent practices at your dealer.

pat

You might also want to run this by the helpful folks who hang out in the Any Questions for a Car Dealer? discussion. It would be helpful if you made clear what specific remedy you are seeking, btw. Good luck and keep us posted.

luxoseeker

My 2005 LS came with 18" alloys, and I had the dealer exchange them for 17" chromes. It is not problematic for the car and its systems as long as the outside diameter of the tire remains the same. I drove my LS about 100 miles on the 18s, and I much prefer my 17s now.

rcf8000

I had 17s on my '01 LS, and my '05 LS came with 18s. I was somewhat concerned initially, but I like the 18s, and see no reason to change to 17s.

topspin628

I don't know if it's OK with the rules of this forum but if so, I think you should tell us the name and location of the dealer so that it will serve as a warning to any of us who may be in the market for a car. This sounds like a terrible scam.

stomp32

Thanks to all for the replies. The dealership is Pleasanton Lexus in Pleasanton, CA.

After calling about five different agencies, including Consumer Affairs and the DMV fraud unit, I understand why the Lexus general manager was so confident to the point of telling me to go ahead and call anyone I wanted. It takes a very long time before any action is taken. Even the local consumer fraud unit is not taking any new cases and advised me to consult a consumer attorney. The DMV fraud unit did express interest but also explained that they can only file criminal complaints - any remedy for myself would have to be undertaken by my own lawyer.

I'm still incredulous that a so-called high end dealer would stoop to such levels to sell a car. The owner has many dealerships and lives in North Carolina, so I don't know if he even realizes what is going on at this particular store. Perhaps Lexus Customer Service will contact him and then something good will come of it.

Ironic thing is I went to buy a Lexus to avoid the "questionable tactics" employed by lower end dealers. I'll keep you informed on the progress of this case. Again, thanks to everyone for your help.

Keith

anthonyp

I hope you persue this to the fullest, and not give up with a simple settlement....If what you say is un biased I feel you have been treated very poorly, and furthermore dishonestly.....There is a point where it is not just another business decision .The wronded person should make a deal with his attorney, and let the attorney do his job with depositions etc...Probably cost at least twenty to thirty thousand dollars through trial. I`l bet if things are as you said, you would win....Good luck Tony ps remember the puntative damages

stomp32

I probably would have been happy to void the transaction in that they take the car back and I take my money back. But at this point, I am fuming mad and want to make sure that they are not able to pull anything like this on someone else.

I truly hope Lexus cares enough about their name and reputation and puts a quick end to the very questionable and possibly illegal actions of this dealer.

Keith

oac

There are quite a few attorneys on this board (garyh, where are you ?) who may have some suggestions. But after reading your first post, I have to say that you made a couple of mistakes. The first is trusting a dealer at their word. The second is not ensuring that all paperwork on the SC430 were laid out on a table out in front of you to verify everything was on the up-and-up. One can always simply ask the dealer to pull the service history on the car, and you would have found out when the car was first put into service, and that would have put paid to any lie about ownership on that car prior to the purchase. And maybe the deal would have ended right there.

However, I think you do have a sufficiently strong case against the dealership. Assuming, of course, you'd like to pursue this to a logical end, I'd advice you contact the California Attorney General's office, your local BBB office, and an attorney. Lexus Customer Service is really powerless to effect any change to a legally-binding contract you signed, hence there isn't much they can do, IMO. Ditto Consumer Union or DMV fraud unit.... OTOH, you certainly can file a fraudulent case against a dealer who may have deceived you into the purchase. Such deceit, if proven, could nullify any contract you may have signed, and hence get this situation resolved in your favor. But I am no legal expert tho'...

Good luck on this issue, and keep us informed....

topspin628

I think that it's actually a very good "blow" to post this data on the specific dealer in all appropriate Lexus sites here at Edmunds. Did they send you a survey form yet? They are very sensitive about getting good grades so you should call them and customer service and tell them that you are going to "expose" their unethical business practices any way you can . They hate "noise" and I think this is a good weapon.
I too had a rather unpleasant buying experience at a dealer (Lexus of Massapequa) where they used some "old school" pressure techniques with the "finance manager". I had been used to being treated in a professional manner by my BMW dealership and was not prepared. I trashed them on the survey and will make it known to anyone that they should not buy there.

syswei

Consult your lawyer first, but how about driving around with a sign on your car saying something like "Lexus of Pleasanton = deceptive" or fraudulent or whatever. Maybe park in front of the dealership with the sign showing.

carnaught

I think if you wrote that on as sign, they could go after you for libel or slander. You'd be better offf to write: "talk to me before you buy at Lexus of Pleasanton" or something like that, and list your cell phone number.

stomp32

Again, thanks to all for the replies.

OAC, you are correct. I should have been more aware. It never occurred to me they would send the first contract and give me the copy of the "fake" one. I should have torn up the first contract. However, I do have the signature of their finance representative on my copy which indicates the car is new. Whatever good this does me remains to be seen.

As far as Lexus Cust. Service, you are also correct. I received a call from them today and one of the first things the rep mentioned was that all they do is sell the cars to the dealers, and the dealers are free to do business as they see fit. I guess the gentle message being given to me is if it does not have something directly to do with the quality of the car, they are powerless to step in.

The dealer surely knows how difficult it is for someone to take effective action against him. He is banking on it. A lawsuit is a long and tedious process, as you all know, so I will consult with my attorney as to what measures to take. Letting this go would be too easy and it turns my stomach to imagine the dealer smugly sitting behind his desk, thinking he has chased yet another sucker away.

If nothing else, I have learned to be vigilant to the point of paranoia when dealing with car salesmen. The poor guys at Magnussen's Lexus in Fremont where I recently bought my LS must have thought I was some kind of nut job, the way I was checking every word of every document. Everything was on the up and up, which I still believe is the case with most dealers.

If any of you are still here in about two to three years, maybe you'll finally get to hear the end result of this fiasco.

Best wishes,

Keith

stomp32

Unfortunately, Lexus only sends the surveys to owners of new cars, a group in which I am sadly not included.

nvbanker

"I think if you wrote that on as sign, they could go after you for libel or slander. You'd be better offf to write: "talk to me before you buy at Lexus of Pleasanton" or something like that, and list your cell phone number."

Truth is a real defense to slander - they couldn't touch you IMO.

oac

BTW, congrats on the new LS.

I don't know your car buying habits, but I am thinking of a way to minimize cost of litigation for you. Assuming you still have the SC and like the car, why not just keep it, enjoy it and ride out any depreciation (potential or real) accrued from the car being previously *owned*. After 5 years of ownership (or thereabout), hopefully you would be in a position to trade it for something else without suffering any re-sale woes from this affair.

Sometimes we may fight for the right thing but end up losing a lot in the process. I am not trying to discourage you from doing the right thing, just trying to be a realist. In my line of business, time is very precious so I won't have the luxury of time to spend pursuing this case legally, assuming I like the car and plan to keep it for a while. There are no guarantees from a litigation, it is a long, drawn out, and costly process....

carnaught

"There are no guarantees from a litigation, it is a long, drawn out, and costly process...."

This is precisely what the dealer is banking on.

goyoneuff

Hello all,
I'm very impress w/ Lexus quality and started looking for one couple of weeks ago. Doing research here and there, testing, autotrader, google, etc. Looking to pay around 15K I found ES300 and they are pretty good deals. Now, my boss is selling his LS 400/96/54K. He doesn't know yet about the price, but it will be probably around 10K or so. Question here is if an almost 10 years old car like this will be giving me a lot of trouble with maintenance. I know Lexus has a very good reputation in reliability and that this car only has 54K on it, but still, it's 10 years old and I think rubbers, joints...etc, start to crack and to ask for changes. I imagine at this point I cannot buy a warranty or something, therefore, I'll be by my own on paying anything it might need. It's in very good shape, only minor things like the stereo system console is getting crazy sometimes and doesn't show correctly FM stations, and a little hit on the rear bumper when my boss's mom was pulling it out the garage. Other than that, I think it is good and it has been under good maintenance schedules.
Any help, insights and suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Currently we have a RAV4 2005, which is basically our family car, or should I say, my wife's car. Now things are getting tight, and I need another car to commute and do errands.
Thanks to all, and have a great day,
K.

ljflx

My advice is to show all your paperwork and explain this in a very detailed letter to Lexus customer service and push it with a copy to Clements or someone very high in Lexus sales and service. Try to get this into the hands of at least one or two high level execs. Legally you have a case of misrepresentation but it'll get you nothing. Whether you bought a demo car (which I believe is considered new) or a car that was returned may not be all that relevant in a courts view. A court of law may look at it as - you bought a car from a dealer with 1500 miles on it and that all there is to it. If you paid a price that equates with 1500 miles of depreciation they may just look at it as a fair deal done underhanded. The dealer may get a fine and they may see no damages to you. Also our law says innocent until proven guilty so lambasting the dealer could get you into trouble. Lastly as carnaught implies - litigation is not a good way to go. A real good lawyer will tell you that the only winners in business litgation are usually the lawyers. Without a big money number on the table (and we are certainly talking $10K or less here) you will owe your lawyer more than you'll ever get in damages.

The biggest advantage you have is to play this with Lexus. Every dealer wants to be looked at favorably by them. There are only 210 dealers. They want to hold onto their local monopolies when Lexus expands further and that is happening right now. A dealer with problems will not get his homecourt advantage in expansion. Secondly they get very favorable achievement if they score high. Lastly Lexus make take care of this internally with some nice credit voucher to you and a penalty to the dealer. My advice is handle this with political savy and not litigation. A well done business complaint letter to the manufacturer usually bears fruit if it gets to the right people. I'd also try to get the dealer owners name and copy him in on any letter to Lexus HQ. These people make more money then any other car dealer.

stomp32

Believe me, litigation would be my absolute last course of action. In the meantime, I will pursue whatever avenues are available through Lexus.

I agree that time is precious, and I would probably have to spend much more of it to see this to the end. Though I can't claim to be altruistic at all times, I feel in this case I need to make a big enough stink to at least get these guys to think twice before pulling something like this again. Besides, that general manager is just a bit too smug.

I suppose I can take comfort in knowing that this particular dealer will never see another dime from me. I tend to be very loyal to those businesses that treat me right. By that I mean in an honest and forthright manner with mutual respect. I think most of us are like this. How shortsighted of them to take me for a few grand extra right now and blow many thousands later in the form of new car purchases, servicing, and referrals?

Perspective is hard to achieve when you're right in the middle of a situation. That's why it's nice to have a community like this where others can give you a bit of advice or insight you otherwise might have overlooked. Thanks once more to all.

Best wishes,

Keith

nvbanker

It's better than that - not only will they never see another penny from you - you will tell this story enough times in the next 20 years, to really hurt them by costing them customers. This forum was a heckofa start!

michael_mattox

Kieth:

Do not accept the Lexus Service Reps BS...It was Lexus that made them a Lexus Elite Dealer...Causing you to have confidence that you would be treated at least fairly...At least from all the wonderful things you had heard about lexus it's quality and the way the company stands behind their cars...

I would strongly recomment you send a letter to Lexus Home Office in Japan, In fact sent it certified mail to the CEO....with a copy to the Dealer...The consumer Protection devision of the attorney Gererals office in you state...And LEXUS USA...

Please give it a go...If you put enough heat on them something may happen...I would expecially attack the We just sell them the cars Comment....Along with the rest of your story.

michael_mattox

Until you get a LS you will never really know the joy of owning a true Lexus with all the Luxury that Implies...

The Older LS 400 is still concedered by most to be the best looking lexus...

If you can find a 98 it has a bigger engine and a number of improvements from the pre 98s...But All are good...There is a reason this company has earned it's reputation for Reliability....

I would get a Used LS over a New ES any day.

I just had a cosmetic redue of my ) 01 LS430...Dent just behind right side of front bumper....Bumper painted...and the whole car gone over a few dings taken out one or two deep enough to need a drop of paint and the whole thing buffed out....IT LOOKS BRAND NEW AGAIN...cost a little over $500....I would however be concerned about the dash and maybe look for something other then my Bosses car.

ljflx

I'll disagree with Michael on this one. Going to Japan is going too far and it'll get lost in the shuffle. They'll just push it off to the US anyway (after weeks of getting nowhere in that hierarchy), you'll lose time and I doubt they'll pass it off with any urgency. There is no urgency here for the parent company to have concern for (it's a dealer relationship issue anyway, not a real company product issue) and you'll tick off any US execs that can help you. High level US customer service/sales is where it belongs. You want to go high up where responsibility lies and where it really matters. I would send it certified with returned receipt.

I do agree that you have to forget the Lexus service rep bs as he is not high enough in command and will only react when pushed from higher up.

ptkim

How about just contacting your local TV station? There's usually someone/reporter dedicated to business and consumer news I'm sure who would love to do a story like yours. It may just take a phone interview to the dealer by the reporter to get some action. Alan Mendelson in KCAL channel 9 in Los Angeles sometimes do stories like this.

anthonyp

What does your attorney have to say?? We posters who are not legally endowed, have many opinions, but you should at least know where you stand before doing anything....If attorney is discouraging, then your dealing with Lexus would be more low key, and possibly a renumeration would be o.k......I have found that sometimes my attorney feels that (case law) is totally against me, and although I have disagreed, and there was nothing I could do. In those cases, slowly I just forgot about the injustice and life went on.....In the times I did have a case, the people who abused me offered settlements----which I didn`t want to accept-----and slowly the attorneys wore me down to the point where I accepted a negocated deal.....In all cases--I forgot about them after a while and went on with my life...... Now the ones we went to trial over, I remember vividly to this day....You don`t want to do that if at all possibel With Lexus, they have always gone the extra mile with me----with out me even asking them to do something, and I have purchased a good number of cars from them over the years. I wish you good fortune with this apparent injustice Tony

stomp32

My attorney stresses I should wait for final reply from Lexus before taking further action. Though I have never taken anyone to court before, it would certainly consume more of my time than just what I've been doing so far, and I am not looking forward to that.

I will, however, look into going to the media for assistance. The San Jose Mercury News has a columnist who deals with these matters, and several television stations have a consumer advocate who does special features. I am sure they would want to have at least several similar complaints before going forward with the story.

Additionally, I will try going over the general manager's head and write to his boss. This dealership is one of many owned by the same person, and I'm sure there has to be some kind of regional manager. I can only hope he's an honest man who wants to rein in a GM that encourages creative sales techniques.

If nothing else, my story can hopefully help readers to be especially aware throughout the entire car purchasing process. Negotiating the price is just the beginning. Fear the finance manager! He is usually the slickest of them all.

Best wishes

Keith

garyh1

I will only weigh in on this because oac asked me to. You all may not like my response.

First, I have to state my bias. Although I am an attorney, I own a business (securities firm) in which clients suffering buyer's remorse often find attorneys who tell them that they can get financial recompense simply by filing a lawsuit. In fact, the cost of defense is so high that it is cheaper to settle for a few thousand bucks than win a case. So I am not too favorably inclined towards people wanting to sue over losses that are at most not significant.

Having said that, in looking at these situations, the operative phrase is "the Devil is in the details." And I have to say I can't quite follow all the salient details of this case. For example, I don't know what a "rollback" is; the only use of that term in relation to cars that I know has to do with odometers-- and it is illegal. But if someone offers me a car and tells me that a friend of the owner of the dealership had driven it for 1500 miles, decided he didn't like it, and the dealer agreed to take it back-- that seems to tell me pretty clearly that I am not buying a "new" car. I believe "new" in this context is pretty much universally understood to mean "never previously titled". Keith, although I understand that that may not have been what you were thinking, it's hard to accept that the dealer defrauded you if he gave you that information.

Even if you want to assume the dealer misled you, what are your damages? You told us the price you originally paid reflected that the car had 1500 miles on it. So you didn't pay "full" price for the car when you bought it. It's now over a year later, and if you were to trade the car in I don't see what you have lost that isn't covered by the extra "discount" you got up front.

So it looks like there may have been some misunderstanding, but no real economic damages. Maybe that's what the sales manager was trying to tell you: any miscommunication, whether intentional on their part or not (hopefully not intentional), doesn't entitle you to drive a car for over a year and then turn it in and get all your money back. But it sounds like you deserve an apology, and a heckuva good deal on a trade-in!

Am I missing something here?

ljflx

Gary - good points. I was trying to make similar ones but you clarified them a lot better.

There really was a mis-representation here but there are no economic issues to warrant a lawsuit. An arbitrator would likely throw the case out because the price paid was fair - whether new or used and most cars don't lose much value after only 1500 miles anyway. The rollback was probably a price rollback to reflect 1500 miles of driving and that further weakens any economic case here. Don't know if this was a finance deal thru Lexus but checking the "new" box would only help the buyer with interest rates (purchase or lease) anyway. .Most banks wouldn't check a car that a dealer is selling in the same model year. They'd just assume it was new or a demo. I agree an apoology and a few free service appointments or credit vouchers are in order here. This would be a small claims court case anf I could just here judge Judy spaeking at the top of her lungs - "Did you know you were buying a car with 1500 miles on it or not".

Keith - take whatever concessions you can get and use Lexus customer service to get them. Emotions over things like this too easily overcome the cold hard business reality that others will look upon this with. Those emotions will only cost you money. Appeals to a government agency will only result in them slapping a fine on the dealer. You'd have to decide if that is worth your time. Going the media route can be ugly for everyone, including you.

stomp32

There have been no concessions offered whatsoever. To offer any would be admitting at least some fault, which the dealer is loathe to do.

Of course I knew that the car had 1500 miles on it. There are cars on dealers' lots with 75 miles and are considered used. The point is that when a dealer takes back a car from someone for whatever reason, a huge financial penalty is assessed. Why? Because the dealer can only sell the car as used and informed people (unlike me at the time) will obviously not pay anywhere near full price for a used car. Besides, anytime someone lies to you, it can't be good, can it?

For example, if you saw two exact same cars on a lot, both with 50 miles on the odometer, but one was new and the other used, which one would you expect a bigger discount on?

Since then I have learned many things a dealer can do to put more money in his pocket, all of them at the very least unethical. From showing people false invoice prices to giving people false credit report scores. They get away with this because of poor to nonexistent regulation.

I have learned a hard and embarrassing lesson. I've put my story here at risk of being perceived as gullible or even dumb not only for the advice of the good folks on this board, but also to inform anyone who was not aware of such dealer practices. As the saying goes, "If I can help just one person........."

Best wishes,

Keith

stomp32

As even people who aren't attorneys know, a written contract is much stronger than an oral contract. Regardless of what they told me, the written contract in my possession states that my car is new.

I firmly believe that any misrepresentation was intentional. In hindsight, too many things just didn't ring true. Not only that, but everyone from other dealers to two attorneys whom I consulted believe that my story, at face value, indicates the dealer defrauded me.

My real issue is that there is very little a person can do to be made whole. Yes, the dollar amount is considered small, but I'll bet this is not the one and only time this has happened, so things can certainly add up.

Usually, when someone lies to you, it isn't for your benefit. I shoulda had by bs radar on!

oac

I have learned a hard and embarrassing lesson. I've put my story here at risk of being perceived as gullible or even dumb not only for the advice of the good folks on this board, but also to inform anyone who was not aware of such dealer practices...

This is a very good story, Keith, and there is nothing to be embarrased about. We can all get complacent thinking that an Elite Lexus dealership will never stoop to such basal levels in tha act of selling their premium luxury car to anyone. We all should have our guards up regardless... I know I do after a nasty experience at a Toyota dealership while buying an SUV for my wife; that was back in Dec 2000. In my case, after a carefully worded letter to the GM of the dealership, I received a call from the GM apologizing, and providing $300 of credit towards any service, parts or labor at the dealership. I accepted the apology and the voucher, and everyone was satisfied. Lesson learnt for me as well.....

oac

Thanks, Gary, for the lawyerly post...

murph6

Thanks very much

anthonyp

In my opinion, there is nothing to be ashamed about....You took something in good faith and it turned out to be a mis representation....Honestly-- it happens to me fairly frequently as more and more transctions are done more quickly... The larger the number of dollars, the slower I go now , and still do not end up with what I thought ,as the model number is slightly different or some other obscure reason. My latest mess was buying a new tv...What a pain...Tony

michael_mattox

I would note that I have purchased Dealers Cars with 10,000 miles on them and been listed as the First Owner...

I agree a Lawsuit would not be worth the time and money..So we are down to sticking a needle in the Dealer...Which is just as satisifying....

I Still Think a Letter to Japan (the Big HOME OFFICE) with copies to Lexus USA and the Dealer and the Consumer devision of the Attorney generals office and the BBB and anyone else you can think of will cause him the most grief.

sv7887

Hi All,
I wanted to add my two cents on this. You have every reason to be furious. Had that car been classified as used, it would have sold for less than a mere deduction for mileage. After all once you drive it off the lot you lose a few thousand on the spot. I bet you they credited your 1500 miles to the tune of 30 cents a mile.
For starters I'd contact the State Attorney General's office, the Better Business Bureau, and every consumer reporter in town. I did all of this when I had a dispute with a Lexus dealer over a CPO LS400. When they delivered it to me, it wasn't washed, nearly rolled down my driveway with the parking brake engaged, would stall, the passenger side door wouldn't shut properly, and worst of all the tach cluster would flicker all the time.
The dealer, like in your case, was stupid enough to put in writing that the 98 LS400 has a known defect with regard to this cluster. Lexus Customer Service was willing to sent me a letter indicating that the opposite was true. In the end we settled without legal action. He gave me a 2002 LS430 for 55.5K and near full trade value for the 98. (This was in September 2001 when the LS430 was still in high demand).
Did you run the Carfax check on it? If it does indicate the car is used, when the dealer signed off on it being new, it still is fraud. I'd stick it to them anyway you can. Part of the allure of Lexus is their Customer Service and Ownership Experience. This time they've let you down.

Best of luck,
SV

nskod

Helo folks,

After following this forum for long time, finally i decided to join the lexus club. I just purchased a 2001 LS430 with UL package (24,000 miles) last week. I want to update the navigation using 2003 FACTORY TOYOTA OEM NAV DISK, VER. 02.1. According to the seller i can use this as an upgrade disc for 2001 Ls430. Can someone let me know if this is the right version and if there is any real advantage in terms of more(new) data or any other options to upgrade the navigation system. Thanks in advance.

mitchellrowe

Mr. Nskod :
Welcome from another Lexus Owner ( myself ) , and I'm sure from other Owner's.

Direct Answers To Your ? :
YES , THE 2003 CD / NAV ... IS INTERCHANGEBLE INTO YOUR 2001 LS 430
NAVIGATION CD PLAYER ( ROM ) .
VERSION 02.1 HAS MUCH MORE CORRECT GROUND DATA THAN THE 2001 .

Personal Conversation :
A Telephone Conversation With Lexus Customer Satisfaction in Torrance , Calofornia , COULD LEAD TO A REPLACEMENT CD AKA : 2004.1 , AT
NO CHARGE . There was a campaign of no charge replacements at a point in the past . However , i cannot remember which model year of the LS was the focal point . The free exchange was not 2001 , but ; could have been 2002.1 .

Gentle Conversation With The Customer Rep Can go A long Way , If The Power
is in their Hands .

mitchell rowe

michael_mattox

The 03 version is a huge upgrade ....I also have an 01 ...the O3 goes from approx 750,000 points of interest to over 5 million points of interest....

I think the nav. system in the 03 LS is the same as the 01...But just to be sure call your local Lexus dealer...and ask...Also get a quote from them you never know.

P.S. it is easy to install...Maybe a 10 min. job and that is only because it is really hard to figure out Where the unit is and how to get there.

There was a how to Install this new Disk posted on Edmonds The Host could probably tell you how to find it.

pat

If you mean it was posted here in this discussion, the "Search This Discussion" box (just above the first post and just below the last post on this page) is the best bet. If it was somewhere else, give me more info and I'll try to hunt it up.

nskod

Thank you folks. I think i will wait till Oct for the new upgrade.