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Toyota Halts Sales of Popular Models - Accelerator Stuck Problem Recall

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  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    Yes, yes, political personal interests and auto manufacturer lobbyists connnected with Toyota. It's very difficult to keep up with our lawmakers ethics. Are they acting for us or their own interests???

    This factor is part of this too. Good article. I have couple others that indicate same.
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    Yes, I do think some books will be written about Toyota recalls. How soon is questions?
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 14,130
    obyone...believe it or not, I've driven Saddle Road a couple of times in different years. And, did it despite the warnings. And, also did it in a rental car (very, very carefully).

    Given the chance, I'd do it again! :blush:
    2024 Kia EV6 GT-Line AWD Long Range
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    ABC News just reported - Congress blasts Toyota for withholding information from courts, etc.

    Towns said his committee uncovered evidence that Toyota "entered into multi-million dollar settlements in tort cases" rather than disclose the existence of the confidential material to plaintiffs' lawyers.

    Rep. Towns has sent a letter to Yoshimi Inaba, head of Toyota's North America operations, demanding a response to the documents. "People injured in crashes involving Toyota vehicles may have been injured a second time when Toyota failed to produce relevant evidence in court," Towns wrote in the letter. "Moreover, this also raises very serious questions as to whether Toyota has also withheld substantial, relevant information from NHTSA."

    http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/congress-blasts-toyota-withholding-key-evidence-se- cret-books/story?id=9957579&page=2

    Oh no! Wonder where this will go??? Appears Former Toyota Attorney did have some detrimental information.
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    Here are more links just hitting the news from Towns on Congressional Investigation Committee. This is more from 4 boxes of documents former Toyota attorney Dimitrios Biller had - was supoenaed by committee since court had ordered Biller could not discuss.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN2611433620100226

    http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-02-26/toyota-deliberately-withheld-documen- ts-in-lawsuit-towns-says.html

    http://money.cnn.com/2010/02/26/autos/congress_oversight_letter_biller/

    This is not good. Just hitting the news now. I have a headache.
  • gizzer777gizzer777 Member Posts: 335
    edited February 2010
    Looks like the ex Attorney had the goods (at least some of them!).

    Toyota knew this stuff was going to come out, but I wonder how they will apologize out of this one! Damage Control budget probably just doubled. I am not surprised but was hoping it wasn't so! :mad:

    Biller the attorney is probably in do do himself for taking company confidential documents off the premises (unless he had permission?)
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    this Biller has been sued by Toyota for these boxes. So far CA cleared Biller of wrongdoing. Toyota had hoped they could get him disbarred it appeared. There was a Federal Case in Texas that that attorney heard of Biller's information so he took chance and had judge request documents. Texas attorney could not find needed information relevant to his particular cases. He dismissed all his cases. Court judge ruled Biller could not disclose, but decided Biller did not have to turn over to Toyota either. eems case was headed back to California Courts. But then Congress supoenaed. We shall see how this unravels. Towns sounds quite upset. Since Toyota withholding from courts, how much are they wihholding from US government? that seems to be question presented.
  • gizzer777gizzer777 Member Posts: 335
    edited February 2010
    sharonkl:
    You are quite well informed.....Not that it means much (YET) but there is another "whistleblower" out there. She alleged that she was ordered to cover up flaws and defects at the joint GM/Toyota plant (NUMMI) in Calif, by Toyota Supervisors!!!!

    As Far as Biller's stuff goes, i think they said he had 6000 pages of data on this mess (I think mostly rollover data but who knows). can you imagine what must be in there!

    Addition...just in:
    "Toyota to provide additional services nationwide"

    Just like in NY!
    They are really in the Dumpster now!

    SAN FRANCISCO (MarketWatch) -- Toyota Motor Sales /quotes/comstock/13*!tm/quotes/nls/tm (TM 74.55, -0.28, -0.37%) said late Friday it will provide additional services nationwide to drivers affected by its recent recalls. The services include pick up and return of the vehicle by a dealership staff and providing alternate transportation during the time that the customer is unable to use his or her car. The services were initially offered only to drivers in New York but has since been expanded.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    Wonder if I should refer them to the Seattle attorney/legal firm that I am fairly sure commited fraud on the court for, on behalf of, Toyota/etc back in '93-94....?
  • carbuff1171carbuff1171 Member Posts: 77
    They are loading new software for the computer that is supposed to force the engine to idle when the computer detects the brake has been depressed. (flash is just the type of memory where the software is stored)

    The only problem is that any software fix assumes that the computer is in a state where it is running the software as intended. If it is actually in a "stuck" state with the throttle set to full, and is ignoring all other inputs such as shifter position, gas pedal position and ignition shutoff button presses, it could easily not detect that the brake was depressed! As I said in another post, it could be very much like a laptop that is stuck not taking mouse or keyboard inputs, including CTL-ALT-DEL.
  • carbuff1171carbuff1171 Member Posts: 77
    edited February 2010
    Yes, she did say the cruise light came on. Then she said she turned it off and it made no difference. She also said that she put the car in reverse and it kept accelerating. She also said that after the engine was powered off, the dash lights stayed on and then when put in neutral it tried to start.

    The fact is that the computer was in la-la land. The computer has exclusive control of throttle position, lights going on and off, starting and stopping the engine, and responding to shifter position inputs to actually shift the electronic transmission.

    If the computer is in a bad state, ignoring everything the driver wants to do, and has the throttle set to full, any indicators you see or don't see (like the CC light) are meaningless. You are stuck in a deathtrap unless somehow the overheated brakes can somehow overpower the engine within several miles.

    By the way, in the Prius, the computer even decides whether to apply the real brakes, or just use regenerative braking, or if in one of those bad states maybe ignore that too.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dg8QCHIavfY
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    Did you happen to catch her name???

    So Toyota did expand free service. That is nice. they had indicated at hearing - when they were asked if they would - agreed to expand across US.

    Smile - seems like some cleaning house - some other recalls w other manufacturers. - hope I got this correct.
  • gizzer777gizzer777 Member Posts: 335
    sharonkl

    I believe her name is Katy Cameron...a line worker at the plant

    here is a link: But not too much is said YET!

    http://www.ktvu.com/news/14649995/detail.html
    regards

    Jeff
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The Saddle road is off limits as is the South Point road. If you get stuck on either with a rental car don't call them. I think they do it to cover their hind ends. The Saddle road is better now than in the past. The section with no shoulders is a bit spooky at night. I have driven it many times. I would be hesitant in a Toyota. That road is not designed for 120 MPH runaway vehicles/ :shades:
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    This is just done by an owner showing his own car. But will give an idea how structurally vehicle is set up. Note the actual distance of floor mat from pedal when floor mat attached with the brackets. Notice height of pedal and distance to floor. Guess you will need to imagine how this can become entrapped.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CX-N6nktjTU&feature=related
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    I wonder what happened?? I see it was 2007 - wonder if they would go back and try to find out?? Interesting. Seems she was actually an auditor too. Hope she was good at keeping good Toyota records for her defense?? Too bad she didn't start sending her reports only with notarized signature. Would have been quite difficult to alter then. Her notary would have their own private records.
  • silvercoupesilvercoupe Member Posts: 326
    Actually, in the case of the car in California an all-weather mat from an SUV was stacked on top of the carpet mat. The bottom of the accelerator supposedly got stuck on top of the all-weather mat. I can look at my 2010 Camry and see how this would be possible.

    Lot's of misunderstanding about this with many thinking that the mat somehow gets on top of the pedal and holds it down.
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    I am impressed. Did you just figure it out???
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    What happened???
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    Many thanks for providing You Tube vieo of the olorado woman. That family was a big supporter of Toyota prior to this accident. Think husband had won something from Toyota too. Then after the accident and Toyota findings - brushed off. I don't think they are suing either. They just want to prevent this from happening to someone else.

    Did he testify at hearings??? I was gone Wednesday am.

    Seeing this video after I had already read story is shocking. The long distance, through all that brush - just doesn't seem simple floormat would be cause. Not sure what Toyota told them. I think I know have written news report. Will try to find. Or do you have one?

    So sad.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    yes, while in the process of typing the line just above...Oh DARN.
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    I found it. He did have an attorney friend wrote letter. They have taken no legal action. Wow - and Toyota had awarded the husband $10,000 scholarship too. Must check if he actually did testify.

    http://www.9news.com/news/article.aspx?storyid=132254&provider=top
  • silvercoupesilvercoupe Member Posts: 326
    I feel that one death is one death too many, but statistically speaking:

    As per:

    Paul Fischbeck
    Professor of Engineering & Public Policy
    Carnegie Mellon University

    The chance of being killed in a recalled Toyota is 2 in one million
    The same risk as driving any car 200 miles
    or getting 2 chest x-rays
    or motorcycling 6 miles
    or working as a police officer 2.5 days
    or flying cross country one time

    Mr. Fischbeck was a guest on CNBC today and made these statements.

    I know that these statistics won't make the families of the dead feel any better, but we need to keep things in perspective. I know that I am not afraid to drive my Camry every day. Heck, I rode my motorcycle over 50 miles Saturday, so I guess I am living on the edge!!!
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    DHTSA bought Smith car for $40000+ and blue book value listed at around $23000+. Hope Toyota Lexus where repaired did not do any updates, new throttle, etc. Suspicious aren't I?? After Exponent hiring and now today's news Biller's info revealed Toyota withheld from courts, etc - such actions portray ????? corporation.

    What do any of you feel??

    I sure had hoped I would not see this.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    I hereby amend my conclusion.

    While it may very well have been a short in the clockspring spiral cable that initiated the CC runaway event it would have almost had to have been a design flaw within the engine/transaxle control module's CC firmware that went wacko as a result.

    My '01 F/awd not only requires that CC already be enabled, but it also requires a re-actuation of the set/accelerate function in order to re-engage CC after braking disables it. Holding it in the "on" position while/after applying the brakes would not re-engage CC.
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    Yes, statistics are low. But we really don't know how low. Numbers highly questionable??? Toyota hold 90% of complaints - at least - so was claimed by DHTSA. Is Toyota turning all the complaints over to DHTSA??? Since all is voluntary some are never reported. And dear Toyota - today we find out per news Toyota likes to withhold information.

    From just statistical viewpoint you will be correct but figure may be off due to all the unknown complaints that may exist. Still even with them added would not be high. Think most people are driving their cars just as you are. Me too..

    But statistics are not just numbers. Statistics involve humans - human lives. There were 34-35 deaths. A corporation saying well we will just sweep the 34-35 deaths away and disregard as both NHTSA and Toyota did try to do initially - there aren't that many. Accidents are higher - sweep them away as they are from longer high speed incidents too. Profits are more important than human life and human safety. That goes over like LEAD BALLOON. US citizens get quite angry at this type of approach. Get quite angry if told it is their fault. US always has and probably always will. If not addressed some crisis will come and all blows up. Same as what is happening.

    How is it fair those other earlier deaths brought no public rage, but San Diego CHP officer and family's death in crash resulted in huge public outrage? The 911 Call.

    Smile - so you live on the edge - huh!
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    Could that firmware have been reprogrammed after Mrs, Smith's incident during repair of brakes and the unknown destroyed other? Replaced without them knowing?
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    That fellow in prison that claims his Camry sped up when he hit and killed 3 people has me curious. I see there were many complaints about the 1996 Camry Cruise Control. When you try to look at the summary on the NHTSA ODI files you get nothing. It looks like they have the database locked out.

    Unlike some here I have not had any CC I thought was great. Though I have never had one go berserk on me either. My view is the NHTSA has been extremely lax with Toyota over the last 15 years at least.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    When they towed the car into the dealer, you have NO idea what they have done to the car. And their NOT going to tell the customer it was a Toyota problem. Lies and deception is corporate policy. And now they are going to see how the American public reacts to it. They may get a bye and go on lying to the customers. This one they won't.
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    San Diego accident was a loaner car from dealership while CHP car was being repaired, and dealership had put wrong floormat in vehicle??? Duh- how could dealer do that! I checked my file and it was rubber all weather mat.

    Just checked report and only one mat in vehicle per CHP report. No carpet mat.

    Also was a report from there at time - that same vehiclle had a complaint of UA/SUA incident from person who car loaned to before CHP officer. In the loaner records according to that report.

    Oh, oh. .
  • silvercoupesilvercoupe Member Posts: 326
    Why even bother???? If there was a problem Toyota has taken care of it and the car has gone 27K trouble free miles.
  • silvercoupesilvercoupe Member Posts: 326
    Just checked report and only one mat in vehicle per CHP report. No carpet mat.

    My bad. Must have been another that I read about that had the rubber mats stacked on top of the carpet mats.

    As I recall, the all-weather mat was too large and tended to bunch up under the gas pedal. That was what happened with the other driver. He reported this to the dealership. I think this one goes against the Lexus dealership.
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    Oh, oh - you are getting as suspicious as I am now.

    I just could not see how DHTSA expected to find anything??? Legally I would have automatically considered Smith's car possible altered evidence??? Toyota was left to do what they wanted to vehicle with no witnesses. Think DHTSA needed a new one that had undeniable UA/SUA incident that Toyota had not gotten to yet. ?????? From a legal standpoint that would have been the only option approach feasible/viable.

    Just checked LaHood resume. His background is not real strong. Not an attorney. But seems he is known by committee well. Guess time will tell if he is strong enough. Has only been there one year now.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The chances of a second failure were diminished after the dealer went through the Smith car.

    And yes, the Sheriffs dept determined it was the wrong rubber mat installed in the ES350 that killed the cop and his family. El Cajon Lexus should be held totally responsible for that accident. They had recalls and notices from Toyota as far back as at least 2007. Even after the previous renter complained of the throttle getting stuck they DID NOTHING. Toss the owner in prison for gross negligence.
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    Yes, it seems was their fault. Put wrong model mat in car CHP officer was loaned. Appears from report mat was not attached to pegs in floor either. CHP officer would not have probably even touched that mat as car loaners clean. He would have only had 1-2 days probably. UA/SUA report complaint from prior person that had it as loaner exists in dealership records per CHP investigation - multiple problems for dealer.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    LaHood resume

    He is a politician from the get go. An Illinois school teacher turned politician in 1982. Been in Congress since 1985. Obama appointed him Secretary of Transportation last year. You probably know more about cars than he does. You don't learn much riding in the back seat of a limo.

    Keeping up with cars today is a real hassle. I have rebuilt many engines. The last one in about 1973. A piece of crap Subaru that blew up with 3000 miles and a dealer that could care less. I would not jump into a modern engine for anything.
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    You know too!!! Thanks for supporting my statements.

    LaHood's mind was not viewing probabilities and legal aspects well it seems. I predict no findings of a problem. Or we have another politician protecting a corporation once again??? Hope not.
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    Well, I sure was shocked at the hearing when LaHood didn't seem to be aware of the law regarding EDR's. And there were other issues, but also knew he was attempting to avoid any legal difficulties too. Just not impressed with his displayed knowledge gained in one year.

    I also saw he liked "pork" and would always give to his backers. But that is pretty typical. Moderate Republican.

    My knowledge about cars is almost zero. But since this has started - learning alot. My son has helped me undrstand alot more. Vested interest as I have a RAV4.

    So you have rebuilt many engines. Seems like you know alot. Know I appreciate your posts and have learned from you. Thanks for putting up with this gal..
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    Seems you feel same as I do. Car already fixed. Any tests done by DHTSA now will be a waste of time.
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    Now I had just gotten good advice here that a flash into present system was not the best method to use. Brake override system set up separately is best system. Yikes - I need help explaining this.. Hope you know what I am referring to. Will go bakc to his post to see if I can find more appropriate & technical words. Smile.

    But what you are saying is what I was told here earlier too. System may possibly ignore brake override as well.

    My question is where/what are they flashing this into??? Seems would make difference.
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    "Though most of Biller's work involved rollover cases, a 2005 document dealt with a lawsuit alleging that Toyota's electronic throttle system could cause sudden acceleration. Another Toyota attorney wrote to Biller, saying the company had made seven software changes to address the problem.

    "The bad news is that this is very difficult, if not impossible, to fix," attorney Webster Burns wrote."

    Seems Congressional website had some of these memos posted today but took them down this afternoon. Not before LA Times nabbed them though.

    http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-toyota-biller27-2010feb27,0,4348450.story

    Oh no once again.
  • obyoneobyone Member Posts: 7,841
    What idiot designs a car that will kill a family just because a wrong mat was installed and/or left unsecured. I would believe that the Lexus dealer is thinking the same thing.
  • carbuff1171carbuff1171 Member Posts: 77
    I think I know what you are trying to say. A separate system would imply adding some new hardware for a brake override and not just rely on new software for the existing computer. Somehow during the congressional hearings, the questions started referring to Toyota's intent to load a new "chip" for the brake override. I think they were just speaking loosely since they don't know the technology. From what I have heard, Toyota is only planning a software update.
  • marvin6marvin6 Member Posts: 72
    I also saw he liked "pork" and would always give to his backers. But that is pretty typical. Moderate Republican.

    I hope you know more about cars than you know about politics. FYI, I don't think there are any moderate republicans in the obama administration. And no, I'm not a republican.
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 14,130
    What idiot designs a car that will kill a family just because a wrong mat was installed and/or left unsecured. I would believe that the Lexus dealer is thinking the same thing.

    First thing I thought, too. As far as the Smith's car is concerned, I'm left wondering if the new owner knows the car's history? I know I'd certainly not want to buy that car if I did.

    Further, somewhere down the line, the Smith's car had to go into the shop (Lexus?). At the very least, the pads and the rotors had to be replaced. I'm sure the pads were shot and the rotors would have been very warped. Eye witness reports stated that smoke and flames were coming from the vehicle, presumably because the brakes overheated. Did Lexus install the brake over ride in it when and if they had it?

    If not, then this car is still a ticking time bomb, waiting for the next UA to occur. I wouldn't want to be anywhere near where this particular Lexus is being driven, that's for certain.
    2024 Kia EV6 GT-Line AWD Long Range
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    There is no doubt that Biller has a lot of damaging evidence against Toyota. Many would paint him as looney tunes. If that was the case why has Toyota spent so much money on attorneys to block his testimony and evidence in so many places.

    Rollovers could very well be the result of UA. Most rollover accidents I know about were caused by people going too fast for the conditions.

    The Biller documents, Towns said, raise a "very serious question as to whether Toyota has also withheld substantial relevant information" from the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, which regulates auto safety.

    A spokeswoman for the Department of Transportation, which oversees NHTSA, declined to comment.

    Although most of the Biller documents focus on rollover cases rather than unintended acceleration, they do speak to the company's handling of safety disclosures in general, and potentially lift a veil on what Rep. Eleanor Holmes Norton (D-D.C.) referred to as a "culture of secrecy" at Toyota.

    Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood acknowledged that federal regulators have "had some issues" getting information from the company.


    Is LaHood trying to smooth over the issues concerning Toyota secrecy?

    I agree that LaHood is not a moderate Republican. To get elected in Illinois for 12 terms you would have to be part of that Liberal regime.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I'm left wondering if the new owner knows the car's history?

    How many people will pay to get the scoop on a used car being sold at the dealership? Those that like to point their fingers at the driver and give Toyota a clean bill of health will use cars like this one to make their case. It has 27k miles with no problems. I might point out again the Prius owner that had a horrible UA and kept the car another 100k miles. He could not pass the vehicle on to someone else with good conscience.

    Would an incident that did not include an accident such as the Smith case even be noted on Carmax? Probably not. The car was hauled to the dealer. Repairs made and another person gets the car. We will probably never know exactly all Toyota did to that car. It is like the dealer told the Prius owner they found the problem with the CC. Then later said, no that tech did not know what he was talking about. My guess is the cloak of secrecy goes to the bottom dwellers in the ToyLex dealerships.
  • carbuff1171carbuff1171 Member Posts: 77
    Biller's documents are reported to include documented evidence of people being bribed with large sums of money to keep quiet or stop their attorney's investigations. The fact that Toyota hired two previous NHTSA employees combined with the three paragraphs by Richard Mitchell in the following article might lead one to question how far Toyota has gone. Perhaps Biller's documents will help get answers.

    http://www.springerlink.com/content/y674m082j2662t67/?p=e0636b17646e4836aa99c46d- bb75b166&pi=1
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    I am sorry you feel I offended you. That was not my intent. I was just stating the fact Ray LaHood is registered Republican. And the fact he was dedicated, obtained monies for local projects. This is called pork. And pork can be quite good.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,686
    The saving grace for Rhonda Smith was the interstate she was on is 3 or 4 lanes in that area next to the main road between Knoxville and the Smokey Mountains resort area. It also is a high speed limit interstate at 70 and people typically are traveling well above that limit. So she wasn't faced with typical bunched up traffic to dodge or run into or cause her to swerve into a rockface or a guard rail.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

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