Acura RL

lexusguy

Desirable to whom is the real question. If everybody made pure sports cars, what about grandma Milly who doesn't want that? One of the car magazines said in an article that only maybe 20% of the population are real enthusiast drivers, so in that Lexus is smart to cater to the other 4\5 of the population with cars like RX, ES, and LS, which as we all know they do VERY well with. The problem, if you want to describe it as such, is Lexus has tried (though not very well yet) to court that other 1\5 that wants some punch with their plush with the IS and GS. Toyota CAN make a sports car, just drive the GT-One. What remains to be seen is how much of that kind of flavor they are willing to put ino a Lexus.

ksoman

As both a loyal honda and bmw fan, i disagree... yes BMW's are not built solid like the price would make you believe, but they don't live their lives in shops by any measure like the jaguars of the past ages.. .infact the new jaguars are pretty good, suprising considering its now a ford product.

lexusguy

The period that Jaguar was owned by the British government in the early '90s were some of the worst cars ever made. It would be pretty much impossible for Ford to screw them up any worse than that. The two Jags I've had since the PAG take over havent been particularly impressive in terms of quality though.

ksoman

i've had fewer complains on my S-type compared to the little irritants on the 3 convertible.
ksso

lexusguy

My Jags have had lots of electrical problems. Airbag warnings that go on for no reason, a broken fuel sensor that said the car was on empty when it wasnt, the top stopped working twice on my '98 XK8 - it just got stuck in the down position, the power seat adjustments failed in the XKR, and the Supercharger failed at 20K, also, now the XKR likes to stall sometimes for no reason. Not what I'd call "impressive" or even "good" levels of quality for 30K mile cars.

saugatak

This is why you should have gotten a Lexus

lexusguy

I'm thinking about it. I'm curious to see what Lexus does when it redesigns the SC, as Im not really a huge fan of the styling of the current car. Hopefully it wont be around as long as the last one.

ksoman

I dunno what lexus was thinking when they designed most of their recent cars...

The XKR, even with its reall outrageously stupid hand operated drop top is still a statement. The SC 430, i dunno what it says, if it can even croak a voice to make a statement. Sorry, but Jaguar, even if they don't live up to it, are all about excitement and performance and class. Lexus to me just doesn't say 2 out of 3.

ksso

robertsmx

I was reading posts regarding comparison of “Honda Legend” to “Toyota Crown Royal” in another forum, and the same old thought crossed my mind…
“No wonder Toyotas don’t appeal to younger buyers”

I believe the same thing happened to SC300 when it transformed into SC430. I saw the predecessor as a sporty luxury coupe that would appeal to youngish executives. But that’s not true with the current generation.

To get the train back on track, I like Acura’s direction with the new RL/Legend. More compact, and apparently, more sport instilled into it. The mess created in the mid-90s can (hopefully) be left behind.

I've a feeling that Honda will send the new RL (as Legend) to Europe as well, good reasons to shrink the exterior dimensions (while increasing the interior room).

And may be, Honda will also develop a diesel V6 to complement the 2.2/I-4.

lexusguy

I'm not sure what the "hand operated" top is your refering to. The operation of the XK8\R's top is fully automatic, you can even put the top up or down by turning the key to the right in the drivers door. The tonneau cover, yeah that you have to get out, open the trunk, and put it over the top. Thats something left over from the 30 year old XJS thats underneath.

ksoman

yes you are right, but that is shameful enough in a 50K+ car... if jaguar had just not put out the X type, i feel they would not have diluted themselves so badly... oh well, every roman empire has to fall and falter.... and yet the XKR bring looks and excudes a statement that probably a faster, sleeker, more aerodynamic, more technologically advanced and finally a 5 times longer lasting sc430 wont do and wont get those buyers to...

have a good weekend all, can't wait for the weekend's weather and GOLF!
ksso

markcincinnati

. . .the X type is the most popular Jaguar.

Good, bad or indifferent, without the X type, I fear there would no longer be a Jaguar company, period.

jeff88

Wonder how many 01/02 mdx drivers out there will trade-in for the new rl? When acura released the mdx in '01, they had a lot of trade-ins from the rl and tl owners; or they leased a lot of mdx's to their customers at lease end for the rl/tl's. In 01, personally, I would never had gone for an rl at a similar price point with the mdx -- the mdx simply had much more going for it at the time. the new rl on the other hand, will have been updated so significantly, it should lure the mdx drivers back to the dealer for trades; especially those that prefer a sedan over an suv.

Lexus & BMW experienced a similar pattern with their x5 and the smaller lexus crossover suv (name escapes me).

jeff88

BTW, a pretty good friend and fellow soccer player on a team I play for is from England. He owns a land rover and an xj8 and is highly predjudicial when it comes to english cars. we've ridden together to a couple of games in the land rover and the jag and I really can't blame him. for all their faults in the reliability department, they sure are great rides and I can certainly see why one would want to take the road less traveled in one.

varmint

Interesting idea. Maybe I'll be able to pick up an '03 or '04 MDX for cheap if the used market grows quickly. =)

lexusguy

Where'd you get that data? The last time I checked X-type sales were very poor, and lead to that $500 million hole Jag had to dig themselves out of a year or two back. Jag also had to chop about $5,000 off the price, because nobody was paying in excess of 40 grand for an Xtype 3.0

markcincinnati

2004 Sales up -- in the European mkt for Jaguar -- 40%. Read on:

"Figures released by the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders show they increased by that amount in June compared to the same month last year.

The company said it sold a record number of cars (world wide) in the first half of this year, just over 18,000.

European sales rose by 40% over the same period compared to the first half of last year and the firm said new diesel models played a key part.

Director of corporate affairs, Don Hume, said: "The increase is a lot to do with the introduction of new models and the revising of existing ones.

"The S-type for instance was improved at the start of the year and a diesel-powered version of that is imminent.

"We're able to offer significant fuel economy gains with the diesel X-type, which came in last year."

The X-type has been the most successful, with sales increasing by 37% across the range in the first half of the year compared to the same period last year.

But while just over 14,000 cars have been sold in Europe in the last six months, there has been a slight decline of 3% in sales in the US market in that time."

Source BBC News July 7th 2004.

ksoman

the X is nothing more than a sluggish mondeo. or something like that. Personally, having driven the ford mondeo in europe and UK several times, I think that thing drives far far better than the heavier stupider and totally silly looking X. Shrinking the beautiful shape of a XJ into a type S was bringing it to the edge... shrinking it further to an X type is simply ridiculous. I have heard the X is sitting on a chopping block. I would not be suprised. I sincerly doubt the X sells very well.. but I may be mistaken, I hope not.

Good point about the MDX/RL cross-"hoppers"... actually varmint makes a good point, there might be some super used MDX on the lots if that happens post leases... however, from a friend in AHFC, i hear that the ratio of leased MDX's is not so significantly high. He said a lot of people tend to lease M350's, X5's & Lexus SUV/crossovers, but with MDX's the ratio is lower than the industry...

hmmm

ksso

jeff88

Prior to getting a company car was starting to shop for a used '02 tl/s and they were not in high supply. Bam, they introduce the '04 tl and soon there were a slew of the type s for 2002 pourng back into the dealers. not in that market any more but at the end of this winter, had a car salesguy calling form my local acura dealer more than a few times to tell me he just picked up another green tl/s in with low mileage. prices dropped when they started getting more inventory. am guessing there will not be just a few rl's coming back when the '05 hits the dealers but also mdx's and tl's of past vintage.

lexusguy

The X-type is a heavily modified Mondeo with a Ford V6. They gave it AWD because a FWD Jaguar doesnt look good, at least not in this market anyway. Apparently in Europe you can get X-types in FWD. I still dont see where the $40K comes in. The ES330 costs less, and has a much better interior than the very noticably cost cut Jag.

markcincinnati

2004 Sales up -- in the European mkt for Jaguar -- 40%. Read on:

"Figures released by the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders show they increased by that amount in June compared to the same month last year.

The company said it sold a record number of cars (world wide) in the first half of this year, just over 18,000.

European sales rose by 40% over the same period compared to the first half of last year and the firm said new diesel models played a key part.

Director of corporate affairs, Don Hume, said: "The increase is a lot to do with the introduction of new models and the revising of existing ones.

"The S-type for instance was improved at the start of the year and a diesel-powered version of that is imminent.

"We're able to offer significant fuel economy gains with the diesel X-type, which came in last year."

The X-type has been the most successful, with sales increasing by 37% across the range in the first half of the year compared to the same period last year.

But while just over 14,000 cars have been sold in Europe in the last six months, there has been a slight decline of 3% in sales in the US market in that time."

Source BBC News July 7th 2004.

donbl

Having owned 5 Acura Legends or TL's and one XK8, I can say I love my Jag as it has been pretty reliable with nothing serious in 50K miles of care and love. Have not taken it above 135MPH so saving some for later.

The Acura's have always been reliable and that 91 Legend was mighty fine.

The new RL is for the wife so we have something to drive on long trips. Looking forward to seeing the whole list of features and will probably buy in the Fall.

lexusguy

What year is your XK?

donbl

2000, bought it new so it has received good care.

lexusguy

Youch, lol. My XKR is a '00 also, but I bought it two years ago, to bypass that monstrous Jag depreciation hit. Its held up better than my '98 XK8, but has still sat in the service department for a week or more several times waiting on various parts from England.

donbl

I think all cars' satisfaction relate to the quality of the local service departments. If we did not have excellent service groups within 5 miles for both cars we would be driving something else.

markcincinnati

. . .rain on my parade.

Many long time lurkers and posters alike certainly know that there is a camp that seems to be virtually certain that Lexus and Acura and some other (usually Japanese) cars are of the highest caliber with respect to reliability. And, those of us who have -- finally -- placed a Premium Japanese car on our shopping list are beginning to believe that it is possible to have a high quality, fun to drive, high performance car that is simultaneously reliable. Previously, I, for one, had come to think that extremely high reliability often carried with it a price of driving blandness or other less desirable traits.

Perhaps the almost obsession with reliability -- that I lack -- stems from the fact that my non-Japanese cars have NEVER stranded me (and I am 53 and have had some 30 total cars in my garage (this accounts for my wife's cars, too, BTW).)

So, I ask one of the people I work with -- who has an Acrua (1999) what he thinks about his car. He says he really likes it (he also has a Honda). I ask him the $49,000 question, "would you own another one?" Without hesitation he says "no way!" I asked him why, especially since he says he really likes [driving] it.

He started listing the number of things that have gone wrong with the car -- most of them relatively minor, BTW -- that had "stranded him."

Recently, he and his wife decided to go on a 4 day long weekend trip. He says, they get into the car and roll down the front driver's window and they heard a crunch or crash and the window motor broke off and the window was stuck permanently down. It was a Saturday, he had no appointment and he lives in an apartment and doesn't have a garage -- the car could not be left out in the elements with the window down. The long story is that they lost a full day of their long weekend and took the Civic instead.

On another out of town trip, the entire electrical system failed. And then there was one after another brake related problem. And, um, well after about the fifth "little" problem, I thought his one Acura had practically as many problems as our 27 Audis have had COMBINED.

Perhaps, this is an anomaly. I actually believe it is. But, the point is, we consumers often buy based on anecdotes. Had my only exposure to Acura have been my co-worker, well I would probably not even consider moving forward with a test drive of the new RL (although the test drive of the TL was certainly fantastic).

So, this ONE LONE man's niggling problems have put a slight chink in the armor of the Japanese reliability -- uh, well, maybe it's more of a blemish than a chink, but it is, finally, somewhat good to hear that these cars aren't "perfect."

I read so much stuff on these forums that constantly praises several brands and likewise disses several others (VW to name but one) -- and I was getting to the point where my truth detection meter was darn near pointing to "if it sounds too good to be true. . ." well, you know the rest.

I can now move forward, once again, feeling that some of these too good to be true stories of "Legendary" reliability, are just that, too good.

And, from my point of view, that's the best news I've heard in a long time.

ksoman

haha. funny anecdote.

some time ago, we were remodeling our house and the garages were filled with ahem, stuff. I take my wife's bmw convertible out for a spin and the rear driver side quarter mirror gets stuck in the fully closed position. This means I am screwed, because I see rain clouds gathering, the top won't go up and there is no place to stowe the car. I called BMW 24 hour service and the woman hooks me up with the local dealer. The local dealer says, sorry its a sunday, i've no mechanics. I am 20 miles from home. BMW 24 hour service support woman tells me, "sir, pull into the nearest covered parking that you can find, and send us the bill for whatever time it needs to sit there"...

I have had immense minor gripes with my wife's car. But most in that company treat me well. But... I recently got one of my "free" scheduled services from the local dealer. The dealer refuses to give me a loaner. Says I did not buy a car from them, can't give a loaner. (I moved from out of state). I am thinking, wow, I plunked down almost 50K for a car and this jokers tells me this? I called up 24 hour service and told them my problem. They connect me to some other department and the dealer calls me next day saying, sir we could have settled this, why did you go to HQ? I tell him, lets see how good you are, or my next car is going to be bought 50 miles away.

So yes, as donbl so well put it, it all finally boils down to the dealer and their service department.. some of them make our worst problems vanish with a smile, some make our least problems look like giants.

ksso

jeff88

LOL!

Anecdotes v statistics -- age old problem. My take on this whole discussuion around why we purchase what we do has a bit more than a little ego involved in defending our decisions. No one wants to look like they made a bad decision, especially those among we who research the heck out of our choices. (Paralysis by analysis?) Research, decide then ultimately, cross our fingers.

For those who prefer reliability over dash, then to have an experience with the above mentioned acura is doubly troubling. The worst of both worlds. Luckily for that owner, you reported he/she loved to drive it so they might have been having the ultimate "Jaguar" experience, at least statistically speaking. I.E., love to drive it but it's a pain in the shop.

Today's audi company is probably still trying to overcome the audi experience of a decade ago when consumer reports had strings of blackballs on the electrical components and brake reliability lines.

It doesn't mean that the electrical systems on the newest audis are bad at all, it means they once were and audi suffers from the historical perception. Today's jags, from a reliability standpoint, probably outclass most cars from the mid-90's but are still discredited with the pre-ford experience. Anecdotally, my in-laws xj8 has been wonderful along with their caddies and buicks. no problems whatsoever.

Only cars I've ever been stranded in were my datsun '74 610 wagon with a blown oil headgasket; and my '73 volvo 144s with a broken fuel line. both occurred well after 100k miles. have never been stranded in an american car!

the '96 rl I just sold was completely reliable and not costly to maintain after warranty. so was our '95 explorer so I can't really laud acura for being much better than ford then can I? anecdotally, that is...

lexusguy

Statistics say that 1\2 as many Japanese cars have major problems as European cars. Thats still means that SOME of those cars are going to have problems. Not even Lexus makes 100% perfect cars. However, given that the '04 SC430 had like 1\3 of the industry average of IQ problems, they are about as close as you can get. I've never been actually stranded (my Jag has stalled a few times but the engine restarted). If I was, that would be the last car of such and such particular maker, I dont care how much "fun" it is otherwise.