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Comments
Good luck on your car shopping.
Ant
Also, check out VW's website and try to get a Certified Pre-Owned VW. http://www.vw.com and follow CPO links.
I am planning of getting a 2002 GLS w/ a VR6 and w/ an automatic. I was wondering if any of you had any advice or comments (from current owners) on rough (bumpy and pothole ladden) city streets as in Washington, DC as I work in the city and live in the suburbs. I have a concern that the car may develop problems from the potholes, lack of road repairs/maintenance, and utility digging and patch work. The last VW I had was a 1988 GL and it lasted until I got married and was forced to donate it to charity with 148K. However, after test driving a 2001, I have a funny feeling in my gut that the newer VWs are not as solid and durable as the ones from the past, which were made in Germany. So please comment on the newest of these and their behaviors and effects when driven in the city environment.
Thanks.
-Gary
Puebla Facility...
It produces All of the New Beetles, Jettas for No.
American distribution(US & Canada), Cabrios for No.
America...
Jetta/Bora Variants(Wagons) are produced in Wolfsburg...
All Passats are built in Germany...
Golfs for No. America are Built in a new State of the art facility in Brazil...
All the salesmen who've posted say they don't need to, though they hide behind the fiction that it doesn't matter.
once again, why you waste your precious time with
this *** stirring...
And, I made the point over at *Smart Shopper*; so I will repeat it here, that the Country Of Origin is
clearly printed on the Monroney label that is affixed to the Window of every car, for every brand, in every state in the US...
What is your point???
level of accuracy when posting info that is read
worldwide, and where the biggest audience is in the United States...
Being Canadian, I am not conversant with the appearance of those stickers and do not know how prominently the country of assembly is stated on them.
Is it in big bold type like I gather the EPA mileage figures are, or is it buried in dim fine print?
Regardless, you need only review the posts on the Jetta, Mercedes and BMW boards to see that many, many Americans are buying these cars without knowing they were built in the third world.
So this information about origin is obviously not being effectively communicated in the U.S., even to people interested enough in cars that they would frequent a website like Edmunds.
So what do you say to those fellow citizens of yours, "ya should'a read the sticker, sucker!"?
Look, here's a guy who is obviously a car enthusiast (his profile says his dream cars are "Bmw M3/M5, Audi S4, Benz CLK55 AMG") who doesn't appear to know that a lot of 325s and C-class cars are made in South Africa.
So much for your stickers.
Well, consider the following experiences related on the Mercedes C-class board:
#3899 of 5014 my C-320 experience by ecc1 Jul 26, 2001 (08:26 am)
I've been "lurking" here for a while and wanted to share my purchase experience. I've been driving domestic suv's for years and finally decided to take the plunge and get a "near?" luxury car. Purchased a new C-320, loved the car, drove great, handled great, etc, etc. for a day. Noticed that the key would not open all the doors and windows. Might open one of the back rear windows, or one of the front windows maybe not. Took the car to the dealer of course couldn't duplicate. Drove for another day. Key doing weird things, sometimes opens, sometimes not. Once the key would not unlock the doors, I'm getting concerned. Took back to the dealer, couldn't duplicate. Drove another day weird electrical things happening, outside hemp reading 122 when actually 84. temp gauge slowly counting 100, 101, 102 etc. Took back to the dealer, this time they could duplicate the key problem ordered another. This was when I noticed on the door sill the sticker said the car was "Made in Brazil". I calmly walked from the service kept to the sales kept and asked for my salesman, he's off and I talk to the "general manager". I express my concerns with the car and the fact that I had thought I was purchasing a "German" luxury car not a Brazilian car. He said I should have known that everyone knew they were making some in Brazil and gave me the 800 number for MBUSA and said I should complain to them (I'm not calm anymore but didn't say anything). I called MBUSA and spoke someone who assured me my car was not made in Brazil, after my insistence she put me on hold and then came back on the line and told me that I was wrong, that maybe the "sticker" on the door sill was made in Brazil. Before my purchase I read everything I could find on the CM class, nothing mentioned Brazil. The cars I test drove were made in Germany (I checked). The car I purchased was a dealer transfer and had the window stickers removed when delivered. Anyhow to make a long story short, I had to stop payment on my check and had to pay $1,200 to the dealer to take the car back (they hadn't even titled it.) Needless to say, I felt like I had been taken advantage of and my experience was not pleasant. I trade cars about every year and this was the worst experience since a 1982 S-blazer. I can't believe the arrogance of the MB dealer and this will be my last MB. Oh, I forgot to mention the hesitation when accelerating, the "rocking" chair feel of the front seat, etc.
#3942 of 5014 brazil by ecc1 Jul 28, 2001 (05:42 pm)
It has been interesting reading the above posts about honda made in usa, vw in mexico, toyota made in us, etc. These are cars that generally cost half of what a C-320 costs. When I purchased my Mercedes, I was (at least I thought I was) buying a German luxury car. Like it or not, Brazil is not known for making luxury cars. You can't tell me that a Brazilian made car has the same prestige (part of the cost of a MB) and intrinsic value as a German made car. When I was test driving C-320's I did read the entire sticker, all were sourced and assembled in Germany. As I mentioned, the particular car I wanted had to be transferred from another dealer and when it was delivered to me it was "sticker-less". Why would have I thought to ask if the car was made in Brazil? I absolutely would not have purchased the car if I had known it was made anywhere but Germany. If I wanted a car made in a 3rd world country I would have purchased a $15,000 VW Jetta. Shame on MB and shame on the dealer for making me pay for their deception. As I mentioned they had not titled the car, they merely put it back on their lot for sale,(without the window sticker showing where it was made, I checked!). I'm a new car fanatic (my wife claims it's a mental illness
#3946 of 5014 Monroney Federal Price Sticker by wabends Jul 29, 2001 (03:11 am)
Post # 3934:
“It is against Federal law for a new car to be delivered to a consumer without the "Monroney" Federal price sticker, which includes [among other things] the MSRP, a list of standard equipment, an EPA fuel mileage statement, an EPA emissions statement, the country of origin of certain principal parts, and the final assembly point.”
After reading the above paragraph, I pulled out the price sticker that that came with my C240. Interestingly, every item required by law (as described above) was on the sticker, except for the (guess what?)the country of origin and final assembly point! So, I dashed to the garage to check the tag on the door and (Whew), it said Stuttgart. Now, my question is: how come the final assembly point is not on the Monroney Federal Price Sticker? Should I gently remind the dealer about this?
#3950 of 5014 monroney law by nyca Jul 29, 2001 (08:43 am)
Apparently, this "final assembly point" is not required:
http://www.nsxprime.com/FAQ/Miscellaneous/MonroneySticker.htm
Many other articles I saw indicated the same thing: only prices and EPA mileage estimates are required.
Also, someone asked about DC potholes and the VR6. The VR6 is a gas pig, in the city especially. Wait for the new 24v VR6, or get the turbo. Potholes don't phase the Jetta. I have had two of the Gen IV Jets in DC. No problems - still as tight and tank-like as ever.
Sure. LOL. Jettas built in Mexico are known for being one thing: unreliable.
<< The parts are still made in Germany, the extremely hi-tech factory in Puebla just puts the cars together, with extremely good results, by the way.>>
Yeah those constant rattles, malfunctioning windows and MFA failures are a sure sign of quality.
<< Outside of a few lemons that every mfgr has, I would ask anyone to find a car that is better assembled than a Jetta.>>
Except for the Civic, Corolla, Protege and a myriad of other cars outside the Jetta's class.
<< You won't find a Lexus or Mercedes that does any better.>>
And then you went off the deep end. The Lexus is THE standard by which all cars are measured currently. Look at JD Power, cha-cha, and you'll see that your Jetta falls into the middle of the pack while every Lexus stands near the top. I don't know about you but scoring in the middle range is not impressive. It's average. Does anyone long for average things?
<< I want to know why people assume that German workers are somehow more skilled than another countries workers. >>
Who said Germans are better? I think most of us take issue with the concept of cars built in third world countries like Mexico, South Africa, and the US (that was a joke, although I won't buy an American car made in America that's for certain).
Well I haven't laughed this hard in awhile, Justin. Thanks.
you are actually saying that a Corolla, Civic or Protege is somehow better built/more reliable than a Jetta? that is funny. maybe a few less little annoyances, but not any more reliable, and certainly not any more solid. and Lexus? yes, they are great cars. but, upon closer inspection, they have problems too. serious problems. problems that leave owners stranded, with only their lawyers to complain to. the thing is that they sometimes have better service at the dealer. as they should, paying that much money for a Toyota. who is having power window problems with their Jettas in 2002? who is having MAF sensor problems? number one, not many people. number two, neither of those so called issues deem a car unreliable. not even close.
the fact is, Jettas are built just as well, if not BETTER, than the competition, and even some cars costing thousands more. why look at JD Power? been through this before. guess which car companies have nice little relationships with companies like JD Power? the ones at the top of their lists...:)
seriously, what are people saying when they "take issue" with a car being built in a third world country? what is the issue, exactly? dying to hear this.....
Also check the defect ratings per 100 vehicles manufactured. Again, the Jetta/Golf/Beetle get slammed big time and score at the bottom of the pack. Lots of Japanese and even the much *despised* American cars are scoring in the middle or even very near the top.
To say that a VW Jetta is as well built and reliable as a Lexus, Acura, Infiniti, et al is just plain ludricrous and diminishes your credibility.
You are a big VW fan, but you are overlooking the serious reliability problems that plague these cars, the high prices and lousy service.
VW makes appealing, pretty cars with high quality interiors, but the rest of the story stops right there.
to an article by Ken Gross, Lexus had sold
111,281 cars, and that 60,364 of those were RX300s
or LX470s...
VW on the other hand sold 209,790 units...the majority, of course, being Jettas...All built at the Puebla facility...
What's your point anyway?
Jetta: 126,031 Units (Down from 133,116 sold as of November 2000)
Beetle: 60,891 Units (Down from 74,870 units sold as of November 2000)
Golf: 24,519 Units (Up from 21,809 units sold as of November 2000)
Passat: 85,849 Units (Up from 78,888 units sold as of November 2000).
So in essence, VW sales have gone down during 2001. The Jetta/Beetle are losing ground significantly in the market place (Reliability/quality issues, dated models, high prices, better competitors), leaving the Golf and Passat as the current best sellers in the VW lineup. But when compared to other mainstream competitors, VW sales are flunking and numbers are not impressive. It takes more than a pretty face, don't you think?
they are fewer in number, and I would hope that
there *Build Quality* & reliability would reflect
those differences...Due to the fact that I have never owned a Lexus I can only point to the numbers and draw a logical conclusion...
It would also be interesting if you would look at
all Sales numbers for year end 2001...
Jetta Sales were down a total of 257 units from 2000
New Beetle were down 1954 units from 2000 in it's 4th
year without a major refreshening, hence the introduction
of the Turbo S and later this year, the New Beetle Cabrio.
Total US Sales UP from 2000...355.6 vs 355.4 in a VERY TOUGH YEAR
Do you own a Jetta? Just interested in how much "credibility" you have.
Sure, Jetta sales are down. The car is four years old. Makes sense that the sales would go down. They still can't build enough of them, fast enough, though. I guess I have a really hard time with this notion that Jettas are so unreliable. Why is that my two Gen IV Jettas have been fine? Why is that everyone I know loves their Jettas, and has no problems? I have a friend that traded a C280 for a VR6 Jetta, and has not regretted it at all. With all that, I just can't put much faith in JD Power. Not to mention, I have owned a plethora of Honda's, Mazda's etc. Never anything but problems. And the fact that the Jetta COSTS more than a Civic or Corolla in most cases, and that people still buy it, says a lot, doesn't it? It means that no matter what is written about the Jetta and it's closest competitors, people don't buy it. I say closest competitor, because the car really has no direct competition. There is not a car out there that offers that much flexibility, standard equipment, safety, and style, in that price range.
Regarding the JD Power results, I am looking at the results for 2000 and the Golf is 187 problems per 100 vehicles, the New Beetle is 172, the Passat is 163 the Jetta is 234, Chevy Astro is 218, Chevy Tahoe is 226, Camaro is 167 and Cavalier is 164. Looks like your beloved Chevy is at the bottom of the pack. And do you have enough sense to put the results in context?
The very best car was a Lexus with 71 problems and the worst was a Kia Sportage with 298 problems. This indicates you can expect .71 problems with a Lexus and 2.98 problems with a Kia Sportage, so you would expect 2 additional problems with a vehicle that cost 4 times less than the Lexus.
Knowing that the JD Power indicates I might have to put up with 2 problems on a Jetta reinforces my desire to drive a VW as I would much rather have 2 problems with a car I enjoyed driving compared to driving a BORING Chevy.
1. VW made money in 2001, did GM, or Ford, or Chrysler?
2. Chevy has to give $2002 back to the customer now to sell cars and had to give 0% loans in order to sell at the end of last year. Do you see VW with big rebates and 0% interest? I'll answer it for you as the answer is NO. The consumer is willing to pay a premium to drive a VW.
3. VW can not make enough cars to supply dealers, GM, Ford, and Chrylsler have more cars than buyers and are facing plant closures, which is a better position for a manufacturer to be in?
As a more accurate indicator, one should view resale (or residual) values of cars to determine their long-term worth to the consumer. This factors in build quality, demand for the vehicle, and, unfortunately sometimes brand/model cachet. (this would explain the Beetle's high residual value of the recent past).
Fortunately, in this country, we have so many choices and there is a car out there for everyone!
The "issue" as I see it is best expressed by this question:
If you just paid thousands for a brand new genuine Rolex, would it bother you if you found a "Made in Mexico" sticker on the back?
What's your answer?
If you wish to discuss this issue, please address me off-line. Further posts of yours about this subject will be removed.
Pat
Host
Sedans Message Board
Oh and also, my sister is interested in a new VW Golf GL 4-door hatchback and your *hostility* shines in your posts.
Very little helpful info in other words.
BTW, my '01 Impala LS is doing great 10K miles and not a single problem and not a single trip back to the dealer for anything except 3 oil changes. Just sheer driving pleasure and gobs of power...oh and superb handling in the twisties
At least I haven't had the need to have my front doors re-aligned, my power window actuators replaced, my oxygen sensors replaced, incontrollable interior squeaks and rattles, etc, etc.
I wonder why if the VW Jetta is so superior why then owners here and in other sites complaint so much about this *Masterpiece* of German engineering????...something doesn't jive, doesn't it????
My next car will be a new BMW 325i sedan or sportwagon....That's the real German driving experience..50/50 weight distribution, RWD, Manual transmission and silky smooth 6-inline DOHC powerplant.
The Bimmer is most definetely head and shoulders above anything VW can sell at this time.
VW needs to improve reliability, the good news is that JD Power states that VW has improved reliability 20%.
If you do not like Jetta that is fine with me, but it helps if you have some type of personal experience with VW to assist in making credible and relevant posts.
My other half owns a 2002 325Ci. Loaded. Might as well be a 330
Regchase:
Again, I don't understand what you are inferring. I bought a Jetta, knowing where it is built. I still don't quite get what you are saying. Are you avoiding the question? You are answering a question, with a question. If my Rolex was made in Mexico, I would be still just thanking my lucky stars that I had a Rolex. I don't get it....
Let's move on.
Pat
Host
Sedans Message Board
As far as JD Power surveys, their initial quality surveys are per 100 vehicles, over a specified time. Any points regarding the total number of vehicles sold to rationalize a particular make and/or vehicle being better/worse is moot. The Survey is per "100".
Lastly, VW is currently offering "special" finance rates.
http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2002/01/21/vw.htm
M5, even participate here???
How come every time you brag about how great your impala is, you don't mention that this is your second impala? Why don't you tell everybody under what circumstances you became a proud owner of a second impala? I think the Jettas owners here would have a big belly laugh.
Justin: you don't have to own a jetta to comment on its reliability. blueguydotcom makes a good point when he says you base your arguments on personal experiences and not towards empirical evidence. Overall, Jettas are great cars and I agree with a lot of your points about this car. But all the evidence points to average reliability (which still means the chances are very good that the car will be mostly trouble free by today's standards).
blueguydotcom: you may want to take your own advice and not use your personal feelings in ripping the Jetta every chance you get. The Jetta is not as bad as you let on. When it comes to the Jetta, you and Justin are at opposite ends of the spectrum. Most people (me included) who do own a Jetta however are a lot closer to Justin's end. JD Power and Associates does list the Jetta as the most appealing car in its class. Unless the car is just terrible in reliability, this is a more important factor to a lot of people.