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Classic car inspection?
Hey everyone,
I've been looking around for a '62 Ford Thunderbird, however the only one that I've found so far that matched my criteria and price point is in a different state. The vehicle looks clean from the photos and description, but I'm a little weary of buying a classic car w/o seeing it personally.
I've heard of some companies that do special classic car inspections (AiM Mobile Inspections, etc.) and I was wondering if anyone had ever used them or a similar service before. The price is reasonable, especially considering the amount I'll have to invest in the car itself.
Just wondering if anyone had used these guys (or similar) before and had any feedback. Thanks!
I've been looking around for a '62 Ford Thunderbird, however the only one that I've found so far that matched my criteria and price point is in a different state. The vehicle looks clean from the photos and description, but I'm a little weary of buying a classic car w/o seeing it personally.
I've heard of some companies that do special classic car inspections (AiM Mobile Inspections, etc.) and I was wondering if anyone had ever used them or a similar service before. The price is reasonable, especially considering the amount I'll have to invest in the car itself.
Just wondering if anyone had used these guys (or similar) before and had any feedback. Thanks!
0
Comments
Personally I am biased somewhat against "nationwide" appraisal services, because a) all they do is broker out the appraisal to someone they have never met and b) they pay the agent far less than they charge you, thereby not encouraging the agent to do a very good job.
I do this service locally for northern California, and I wouldn't work for the peanuts they pay inspection agents. I don't feel I could be thorough enough.
HOWEVER, it's probably better than nothing at all, if that's the best you can get.
A good source for inspectors would be Hemmings Motor News (www.hemmings.com). Look under Services Offered. The location of the appraisers is shown at the end of their ads, with a state code, like FLA or CA.
Be sure to ask the inspector what he's going to do for you and whether he uses "narrative reports" or "checklist reports". I would not personally pay for a checklist report--I think they are nearly useless.
Fees will vary, but I'd guess that between $175 and $400 should cover all travel, gas, inspection time, and time to send you photos (at least 40 of them) and a written report by e-mail. Also this fee should include some phone time.
Under no circumstances would I let a dealer or other "biased" party inspect the car. The inspector should have no ties to the seller.
To be fair, now and then a club member can be realistic, but usually only after his higher prices have been ignored :P
I agree with you for the 'nationwide' services. I was actually considering AiM Mobile Inspections because I believe they are the only (or one of the few) who actually don't broker out the inspections-- they have inspectors all around the nation, so I think that prevents you from overpaying/paying a middle man. They do a combination of checklist + narratives regarding test drives, etc.
I definitely don't want the dealer to inspect the car that would be absurd (especially if I was paying for it). I feel like no matter what going with the 3rd (mutual) party inspection is going to be the way to go.
Specifically, does anyone have any opinion of or experience with the following national firms that I've found:
• Alliance Inspection Management (AIM)
• Auto Appraisal Group (AAG)
• Automobile Inspections LLC
In the research that I've done so far, I've found AIM Mobile Inspections to be the least expensive for classic car inspections ($179), however I thought that the sample report on their website was not that good. Came across as a total checklist report, with very little narrative.
AAG is a bit more expensive, at $350 plus potentially $0.60 per mile if applicable. Unfortunatley, they do not offer a sample report on their site, however personally I liked the description of what they offered per their completed report. Additionally, their final report actually offers an appraisal, which is nice. I think that charging an extra $50 for a 'Value Certificate' if you purchase the car being inspected is a bit of 'nickel and diming', but it's a nice option nonetheless.
Automobile Inspections LLC also offers inspection services, which are categorized into 4 groups based on the car being inspected (Classic post-war cars would be inspected using the Blue Report, for example). Their service starts at $379, plus $1 per mile outside 25 miles from their nearest office. They, like AAG, offer an appraisal add-on of sorts that they call an 'Opinion of Value' for $25. If you want it on paper, it's $50. Their website only offered a picture of a hardcopy sample report fanned across a table (poor presentation to potential customers if you ask me), but from what I could see of it it looked like a lot of checklists as well, though maybe I'm wrong.
Anyway, any users of these guys out there that can chime in????
There's a big advantage to chatting with the inspector WHILE he's looking at the car, for instance, and also have a phone conference after you've received the report, so that you can ask more questions.
I agree, checklist reports are a waste of time and money.
AAG sounds interesting, I wish they had an example of their reports. I don't really see the point of a "Value Certificate" either (unless it comes with some kind of warranty.
So far I'm still liking AiM Mobile Inspections just because I actually know what I'm getting (example reports) and it has a low cost. I think you're right though there could be more narrative but I think I heard somewhere that you can speak on the phone with the inspector which would definitely be worthwhile...
It's really the obligation of the buyer to guide the inspector on certain items of authenticity, of the seller to have documentation, and the obligation of the inspector to provide extensive photos to help the buyer determine authenticity.
If you wanted a renowned expert to authenticate and date-code every piece on your 60s Mopar, be prepared to spend at minimum a few thousand dollars to have that done.
Authentication is a tedious, labor intensive process and really is not part of an inspection procedure.
Of course, any good inspector will record data plate codes (tags), and if visible, engine #s.
I think any good shop should be able to give it a good looking over and maybe antother trip to a local body shop would be a good thing too.
I would try to find a shop that has a couple of "old timers" who may have worked on these cars when they were still on the road,
The 390 engines were pretty rugged and so were the Crusimatic transmissions. Probably a comnpression test and a good road test should be done.
These weren't "bad" cars per se but they did have some problem areas to watch out for.
They wore out front end suspension parts quickly. Look for worn out upper control arm shafts and lower bushings. They also ate ball joints and idler arms.
Even when they were new, they had constant vacuum line problems. Make sure the wipers work and the heater and air conditioning work. Make sure the emergency brake auto release works.
Check the operation of the slide away steering wheel and make sure the power window switches are operational.
These were very heavy cars and until 1965 they used drum brakes that never lasted long.
I'm not trying to scare you away. I actually like these cars but they need to be driven carefully. Do NOT try to push one around a corner in a hurry and be gentle on the brakes.
The body shop can check for rust and signs of previous collisions.
I just wouldn't pay some "expert" a fortune to inspect a car like this. I don't think that would be necessary.
Ironically, the buyer of a 1978 Corvette cares much more than the buyer of a 1978 Ferrari.
For a T-Bird, I think the only buyer who would care is one looking for a special or rare set of options.
I'm not familiar with the inspection firm you mentioned but I am familiar with WeGoLook.com. They don't do expert inspections, but for a lot less money they will send an independent representative to contact the seller and arrange to meet to make sure the car (or whatever it is) actually exists. They take current digital pics, check the VIN, etc. and provide them to you along with a report via email. If you want them too look at something specific they will. If you order the Custom report they can even arrange transport or deliver the item to the shipper for you. I have a friend who owns several classic cars who thinks this is great.
I too have heard of companies that do this and it is a useful service but, when it comes to buying a $35,000 Chevelle I need someone who KNOWS what they are looking at, like if it's been in an accident, is full orf rust and bondo or if the numbers match etc. not just someone who can tell me whether the car is there or not. That service you mentioned has its uses but its not something I would condider using for classic cars. I'd rather spend more money and get expert knowledge.
Jeff
They are about middle cost $275, the sample report looks good (checklist and comments) and there are up to 100 photos taken.
"JJ’s Auto Pre-Purchase Inspections does not do the inspection for you. JJ’s Auto Pre-Purchase Inspections is a company that facilitates the completion of your inspection through its affiliates, inspectors, or their contractors. The inspections are placed with an independent inspection service or contractor in the area where the vehicle is located."
I also found many of the comments rather useless:
'THE VEHICLE WAS TEST-DRIVEN APPROXIMATELY TWO MILES WITH SPEEDS UP TO 65 MPH. THE VEHICLE PERFORMED FAIRLY WELL DURING THE ROAD TEST. '
THE VEHICLE STOPS STRAIGHT WITH NO PULSATION. (???)
Which tells you what exactly?
Another problem I see here is this:
"Some orders will take between four days and up to a week. "
This simply is too long if the car is, in fact, a good buy. You'll end up out of luck.
Also the $275 is for a local inspection without travel. When you add a 100 mile trip, the cost goes way up.
Absolutely hopeless. Had a Rolls-Royce inspected by them and they had no idea. Said they were experts but they had NEVER ever done a Rolls-Royce before. Automobile Inspections LLC claim to be experts in inspecting cars for pre-purchase but have totally unqualified inspectors who "guess" their way thru an inspection on classic cars. I had one done recently on a late 60s Rolls-Royce and I ended up spending 3 hours with an inspector explaining to him how different things on the car worked and were "supposed to be". I am a Rolls-Royce restorer of 30 years and the inspector not only did not understand the workings of the car and its various features but wanted to argue and dispute my understanding of them.
Needless to say the report was incorrect in its finding, was mis-leading and provided a very inaccurate over-view of the car. In this case, the car was a 100% original quasi show-car falling within the upper 10 percentile of examples and yet Automobile Inspections LLC, concluded it to be just a "good" car for driver purposes. This may not seem bad but the report seriously questioned the value of the car for an avid collector who engaged their services.
The guy who rocked up was driving a rusty 1990 Chevy pick-up with under-sized rims. What more can I say! He didnt even drive the car because he was "scared to".
Basically, they go thru a car and list anything they DON'T know as a fault, get paid their $350 and walk away with a "no responsibility" escape clause for any errors. Both the buyer and the seller agree that the reports are "arm-long" simply to protect Automobile Inspections LLC from any recourse from buyers (sellers are emphatically denied a copy and in fact any and all copying of a report is regarded as "theft of intellectual copyright" by Automobile Inspections LLC!) One has to ask what is the point, then, if no car gets sold because of such an over-cautious report that is not only incorrect but then cannot be shared, discussed or reviewed by any other party?!
When it comes to Classic cars, buyers want them as much as a willing seller wants to sell one. Classic cars are bought and sold out of "want", not "need". It is not like buying the next family car. What is the point of having an unqualified inspector carrying out an inspection on a car and erring on the side of negativity when he does not have knowledge on the car by providing a bad report. Who does this help? Only the inspection companies, perhaps, who get to do more reports because buyers and sellers do not conclude a deal. What a shame that such beautiful and stunning classic cars are not passed from one caretaker to another because of some ill-informed, uneducated and incompetent inspectors. I can only assume the ill-mannered personnel at Automobile Inspections LLC are most likely failures in their quest as mechanics in the real world and this is their "new job" - to scam a short-gain fee for their well below standard service. A not so lousy $350 at that! You would think for that price, they could do some internet research on the product or get a truly qualified person at that!
Automobile Inspections LLC - BUYERS and SELLERS beware.
You simply cannot address the needs of a situation with rare, complex or historically significant classic cars by using a national inspection service that hires brokers unseen and uncertified.
So I'm not attacking your favorite service. I'm offering skepticism that this type of low-end service can do Ferraris and the like. I think this is a reasonable objection.
I read your response with interest. No, its not "sour grapes" at all. I am not a dealer but a Rolls-Royce enthusiast and so whether this particular buyer bought the car or not, does not particularly phase me. What concerns me is that companies like Autombile Inspections claim themselves to be experts and they are far from it. And, so what happens, no-one gets the benefit of their inspection other than teh inpection company. Its like putting 2 useless lawyers on a case. Who are teh only winners?
Personally, I do not need to inspect any Rolls-Royce. I can tell entirely on my own but then, I AM AN EXPERT. That is my very point.
I only allowed the buyer to have an inspection becuase he said he wanted to check "the basics" and thats what I thought there would be. Not a detailed review by an inexperienced bafoon who had no idea (amongst several other things) that Rolls-Royces had brake pumps and thought the cold start pumping sound from these were worn lifters/cam-shaft. Then when I had to explain, he wanted to argue with me. Fortunately, in my case I have a show display engine mounted on a stand in my workshop and all the Rolls-Royce manuals at my disposal so I could explain to him what was "normal" and what was not. Only then, did he swallow his words but I am sure by that stage, I had "put his nose out of joint".
The bottom line is what someone mentioned in a post in this thread after yours. NO inspection company like this has the qualifications for classic and exotic cars and they simply should not promote themselves as such. They should stick to the domestic regular stuff because thats what they can do best. But dont tackle a task that you are entirely incapable of and then try to pretend you are!
For all those out there that need a Rolls-Royce inspected. Please give me a call!
Hahaha! You've missed the point in every way it's been served to ya Chef! It's a waste of time and money to have an exotic car inspected by any other party than an experienced shop or qualified expert.
This is not an attack on your most-favored, online-car-appraising-guruDOTcom.
Edited to add: [insert winking Emotorcon here] Lately they don't show up when I post. hmmm.
The very reason of me posting my comments is so that buyers recognise that these inspections are only a little more than a guide and perhaps they should consider alternative methods for "inspections".
I certainly would not use one. I tend to think; if you are the type of person that needs to look at a car, go look at it yourself. I am not such a person - many photos from the seller will do, and a good conversation on the car will usually uncover all. You can usually tell by talking when a seller is "hiding something" as he will be nebulous with his answers.
I don't see how Hank the Chevy man is going to know anything about all this.
If you want a Ford F-150 inspected, then fine, any intelligent person with a pair of eyes can do it.
All of this can be done by a savvy buyer and a field inspector. Furthermore, what do you expect a mechanic to tell you about if the car was hit and fixed? Do you expect him to know how to check paint for blend or tape lines, factory chassis welds for repairs or other signs the car was taken to the track? I suppose in an ideal world you'd have the body and frame checked out by one person and the engine and mechanicals by another. From my perspective I believe that if you do your homework and have an unbiased knowledgeable individual inspect the car and document how it performs and looks, you are doing as much as you can to manage the risks involved in a long-distance purchase.
You can't "look" at a Rolls-Royce Silver Shadow and say that because you hear a tapping sound on start-up, that it is noisy valve gear/lifters. This is drawing an INCORRECT conclusion and is NOT an observation - it is drawing an "inference" based on knowledge of OTHER cars and not knowing a Rolls-Royce (Silver Shadows do not have a brake master cylinder but 2 brake pumps that are driven from the camshaft which make a "tap-tap-tap" noise when cold and on low pressure start-up). You cant "sound-test" the body panels for bondo as this too is "drawing an inference" and NOT an OBSERVATION (Rolls-Royce hoods, trunk and doors are aluminum so "sound" different"). Automobile Inspections LLC did this. Must I keep going on? I am an expert only because I have spent 25 years with Rolls-Royce and even then, I only claim to be an expert on 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s Rolls-Royce. Becuase I have considerable knowledge of these I dont claim to be an expert on a 1950s Wraith, for example. In fact I only know them in a cursory sense. However, Automobile Inspections say; "we know cars so we must know all of them".... How crazy is that?
When you make the comment; "do you expect a mechanic to tell you about if the car was hit and fixed? Do you expect him to know how to check paint for blend or tape lines, factory chassis welds for repairs or other signs the car was taken to the track?".... I absolutely agree! So they should try to! Automobile Inspections LLC, claim they can on Rolls-Royce! They cannot and do NOT know Rolls-Royce.
All in all said, if they did just a "general" inspection without drawing inexperienced conclusions they would be ok. But no, they want to prove "how clever" they are which only ends up proving how incompetent they are - no one wins.
I hope they read this thread.
So, the conundrum is; does the inspector NOT mention something he is not experienced in - probably not. But if he makes comment on something he has no idea about, that very clearly says he should not be inspecting that make of car to start with. In the legal system, I think that is referred to as a "non credible witness". And, as verdicts should be drawn "beyond reasonable doubt" THAT witness's testimony should be EXCLUDED.
The prosecution rests.
some book about some are from Mars and others from Venus?..... Jeff is from Alpha Centauri (and I think also from Automobile Inspections, LLC)
If you knew you would not have called him "quite wrong"!
I am not sure why knowing "Jeff the Chef" has anything to do with Automobile Inspections, LLC's incompetence, or any other inspection company for that matter? They don't know Rolls-Royce, this has been well proven by their most recent "inspection", so they shouldn't be doing inspections on them. In fact, it is my assumption, there are many other classic and exotic cars they are not experienced in and should not be doing inspections on those either. Of course, in the chase for the almighty dollar in these difficult and uncertain economic times they "are experts in all cars", it appears.
Now, back again to "Jeff the Chef"? Unless his name is Charles, Henry, Owen and/or any descendent, understudy or indirect employee of these, I am confused to understand why his "existence" and me knowing who he is" makes a difference.
Feel free to have him challenge me on my known subject.
Your honour, the forum shall now move outside for a gentlemen's dual of specific knowledge...... Court adjourned?
BTW, I retired in May,
Remember back in May you posted a link to a 1962 Impala SS which was up for bids on ebay? I found it relisted and apparently still unsold as of last month at $23k.
Also saw a '62 Impala SS 409 listed although seller says it's NOM car. Didn't you used to have an original 409 Impala SS?
It looked and ran OK but it needed a total restoration.
When I was a kid I had a 1962 Impala SS. It had the 300 HP 327 engine. I wish I had it today. It was extra nice with factory air conditioning and power windows.
Firstly, let me say I used them several times in 2007 when I was looking for a classic US car to bring to my home here in New Zealand. I recall their reports being very thorough, highlighting what you just can't see on eBay photos. So I had no reluctance in using them again, some 4 years later.
Seems I either got lucky back in '07, or things have slipped - badly. The photos for a start are virtually useless - they show nothing that the seller's don't, and to top it off they're a much lower resolution! It really looks like the "inspector" either was lost for things to shoot, or didn't really care.
Examples include a photo of the radio. Uh, why? Especially as the shot has a great big shadow in front of it! There's a pic of the HVAC controls. Again, why? There's photos of that in the seller's ad, and they're bigger, clearer and have NO huge shadows blacking them out!!
There are exterior shots taken from what looks to be 10-15 feet away. Part of the (very little) narrative says the paint is "chipped" and "dull" but no photo he took even comes remotely close to show just how much. The only other narrative describes the vinyl top as "looks good, but not perfect". But yet again, no photos to show. (I actually received NO pics of the vinyl top whatsoever, so I don't know how imperfect it is. Is it bubbling? Tearing? Faded? Stained/discoloured? Does it appear original or is there evidence of replacement? Who knows? I know I don't!!)
One particularly odd detail concerns the headlight operation. The "report" states that all lighting - low/high beam etc - work fine, yet the item on the checklist "If the car has concealed/pop up headlights, do they work as intended?" he's marked that question "Not Checked". How the hell can you know if the lights work at all then??? Remember folks, this is a 70s Lincoln here.
But he took no less than 4 photos of the spare tyre, so at least I know that's in good shape. Good grief!
He was unable to acces a ramp to get a decent look underneath - OK, fair enough. But why not at least pretend you're half-interested and just take a few shots down the sides and under the front and rear bumpers from ground level? At least it'd be something. Along with perhaps pictures of the door jambs, under the doors, that sort of thing, rather than random, shadow-filled rubbish.
Sorry AutomobileInspections LLC, you have lost this repeat customer for good.
With giving out brokered jobs, the inspection company has no good way to regulate consistency except by providing a standard form to fill out. But whether it's done accurately or just "filled out", is the problem.
After finding these issues with the car, I contacted JJ, who basically denied any responsibility. Even when I asked how she could justify an inspector that doesn't realize that the temp gauges are not working (even though it's on his checklist), she avoided the question.
I will NEVER use JJ's again!!!
I agree with Mr_Shiftright that some big national companies that broker out these jobs to individuals have some obvious quality control issues. There needs to be more consistency there. It is also my understanding that some financial institutions that dispatch inspectors don't check the cars thoroughly due to the company SOP, so that is not a problem with the individual performing the inspection.
With all the company bashing going on here, its important to mention that not all businesses are like the ones mentioned in this discussion. There are lots of smaller quality operations out there. I own a regional PPI business in Pittsburgh and we take GREAT PRIDE in our services. Not all inspection companies are the same and I don't want to see a few bad apples affect the reputation of the entire industry.
Just like any other service, I would suggest taking the time to do some homework before hiring a company. Happy Hunting and Happy Holidays!