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Comments
"here's my (Brave's) short takes on the Boston area dealers:
BMW Peabody - best overall
Herb - too crowded, hard to negotiate
Gallery in Norwood - crooks
Gallery on the Cape - OK but more expensive
Foreign Motors West - did not make it over there
Nashua Tulley - heard good things but state transfer (registering the car yourself in MA) may be a pain."
Brave recommends Mary Galvin (hope I got the name right) of sales at BMW of Peabody.
I bought from Tulley (Nashua) in February and had an exceptionally good experience: friendly, no pressure, and an above-average dealer discount without any "take it to my manager" theatrics. Unfortunately, my salesman is no longer with Tulley. If you are so inclined, ask Jim O'Brien (BMW Sales Manager) for a sales person who would be straight forward. He talked to us a while before assigning a sales person and seemed to want to match us with the right one. Tulley's BMW service center has been first class.
And as far as the tax free day(s), I thought I heard over the radio that cars were excluded; but I nothing sounds real at 6:15 in the morning. I believe the tax-free days proposal is just a Jane Swift thing to get re-elected.
Alan
You left out a section in the middle of the summary that you quoted: "Almost everyone else will most likely be better served by using winter tires. Acceleration takes longer, but in an emergency, the handling behavior and improved lateral grip of two-wheel drive and winter tires -- in the slippery stuff -- are the safer bets."
I guess we're both reading into the article what we want :-)
Too bad we can't try all the combinations of AWD, 2WD, winter tires, summer tires and all season's under all the conditions. Other than that, the article provides at least some well rounded insight.
-Murray
I did that on purpose. With a balanced position presented by both you and me, I was hoping to encourage people to read the whole article and draw their own conclusions.
Good Luck,
DL
Doesn't that work???, I think I've read that somewhere "SportsCars R Us"
Thanks again!!!
As for lateral handling and braking distance, if the roads are really slippery, you shouldn't be going fast enough to make braking distance an issue. I don't doubt that the more aggressive tread of snow tires makes a marginal difference in turning, but you have to be able to go forward to make turning an issue, and again, you shouldn't be using enough speed in the snow to make the difference a serious safety factor.
Don't misinterpret, I'm not against winter tires - if you have SP, and live in a cold climate, you're a fool if you don't run them. I'm just saying that AWD w/all-seasons is better in the snow than RWD w/snows. If you want the ultimate winter package, I guess it would be AWD with snows, which is what I would get if I lived in Maine or Michigan, or some place like that. Then again, if I lived there, I might not buy a BMW.
My brother probably did spend too much for his rims and tires, but he was pretty unsophisticated and didn't know he needed them until the last minute, and had to buy local.
One more thing, you're right, my car w/out SP, won't handle quite as well for the other 7 months a year, as yours will w/SP. But, it will ride smoother and quieter all year long during my 40 minute (one-way) commute to work every day, when I don't get up to handling speed anyway. I'm not knocking handling packages, I think they're great,...and they look better. I think each buyer has to weigh the true value of the benefit against cost, and real world practicality. I did that and decided against SP. I may change my mind. I heard that after March 2001, all 3-series come with the sport suspension. As such, I could always put SP tires on my 16" rims, and have virtually the same handling package as w/the SP option.
No, I've never owned an AWD car, but I have rented a few in Colorado. I was impressed, but, then again, I live in Wisconsin, not Colorado.
I'll counter with the question, Have you ever owned a set of winter tires? They really do make a difference in all aspects of driving.
As for lateral handling and braking distance, if the roads are really slippery, you shouldn't be going fast enough to make braking distance an issue.
If everyone drove that way, our insurance rates would be lower. It's my feeling that AWD causes you to drive faster because you can accelerate without feeling your wheels slip. I constantly test snowy conditions with wheel slip to determine a safe speed. AWD would only falsely increase my confidence.
I'm just saying that AWD w/all-seasons is better in the snow than RWD w/snows.
You're right, but only when it comes to straight ahead acceleration. In almost any other situation on snow or ice, 2WD and winter tires are better. Read the article again http://www.caranddriver.com/xp/Caranddriver/features/1999/May/199905_feature_whatp.xml
The way I look at it, getting stuck in a parking stall won't cost you much, but sliding through an intersection (or worse) can cost you plenty.
-Murray
this spring i plan on purchasing a 330Ci and am interested in the option of 18in wheels. What kind of performance variations should i expect getting larger wheels? What will the gas mileage be like? Will the acceleration be faster or slower?
thanks,
MIKE
Our fellow member "parump" (Thank you John) e-mailed me with the link that I have been looking for regarding the Dinan E46 upgrades. It seems that while we chewed on the Upgrade subject pretty well last week, this might add just a little more grist for the mill. So, without further ado, here is the link:
http://www.mindspring.com/~pmbenn/dinan3.htm
Best Regards,
Shipo
The larger diameter wheel will also result in a less side wall and hence less flex. The less flex, the more of the contact patch actually stays are road, giving you more useable grip. A tire that doesn't flex is also more responsive, as your steering inputs directly result in the tire moving as oppose to flexing then moving.
However, the larger diameter tire will usually increase weight. An increase in weight will reduce cornering, braking, and acceleration.
The larger contact patch also increases rolling resistance, which may hurt acceleration especially off the line.
The effect on acceleration really depends on if the car is traction or resistance challenged. A car that can easily spin its tires, will make use of the additional traction and accelerate faster. A car which can't spin its tires, and actually lags off the line, will be slower.
Now, if your wheel/tire combination has a larger combined diameter, this will also usually reduce acceleration. A larger wheel/tire will not spin as fast for a given speed, causing the engine to be at a lower rpm in a given gear at that speed. You may have less torque at the lower rpm.
A high RPM launch is often used to create sudden acceleration, through transforming built up potential energy in the engine into wheel rotations. Note, a high rpm launch is also often used to put a car into its powerband.
The larger wheels will get the same number rotations per engine RPM out of a high rpm launch. However, these rotations will be over more speed and distance, meaning more time and slower acceleration. However, a car with lots of low end torque will probably not be effected. A car with an abundance of low end torque usually can't make use of a high RPM launch, because of wheel spin. The car also does not need to be revved in order to put it in its powerband.
Curious about your brother's winter experience with the SP setup. What spooked him so fast?
I went for a test drive on Sunday. I was taken aback by the reluctance of the dealer to let me have a test drive on Sunday without an appointment (although I "scheduled" a TD via BWMUSA.COM). I was told: "why should I let you test drive if your not going to buy today." Actually, I had over 10 pages of computer re-prints of the 2002 cars I wanted and said, "I came to test drive this car and talk about buying one and what would that entail (pricing, delivery, availability, etc). They really were not busy, so they let me have a test drive.
Prior to my TD, they told me it would be March 2002 before my car (if I ordered one) would be built. To that, I grimaced and said, "Then I'll be back in March"
They had some 2001 models which were dealer used and recently bought at auction. I drove a 325i with premium stereo, package, and heated seats. The dealer told me that the other extras like 4WD and sport package would not be of any value for me. Boston had alot of potholes and the low suspension would invite trouble. Also, I almost ever rarely put my 4Runner in 4WD. The car had everything I needed and I liked it.
The price was 35,710 MSRP, but with 12,000k on it from the dealer user. They were selling at 32,000 with 4.9% for 5 years. My buddy who was with me thought it was a great deal, and it was about 6,000k less than the 2002 325xi I would wait until next spring to get. I signed the papers.
I rushed home and checked Edmunds.com and BMWUSA.com for my car priced as new and as a used car (after all, it had 12,000k). Everything came up around 32,500k, so I feel I got an honest deal. I don't like to haggle and without edmunds.com or bmwusa.com prices on this car, I wasn't sure if I was getting a deal or screwed.
I think I got a fair deal cause the used car pricing came up with 32,500k as the used price. I paid 32,000k about 3500k less than the MSRP on a squeaky clean car. The car really looks new except for a dusty, needing vacuum interior.
Anyway, I hope I got a good deal. I didn't think I could haggle much since 2002 cars would be half a year away.
So, shoot away with your opinions. ps. I think the deal isn't set in stone until I sign the final papers Wed.
Thanks for all your input,
Nelson
I am looking for a new car and the 2002 325i is on my short list along with the 2002 Audi A4 1.8t quattro. I like both cars, but love the BMW inline 6! One of my gripes though is the clutch. Maybe its because I am used to my 99 Accord, but the clutch engages very early. I was only able to test drive a 2002 325Ci but I suspect most BMW clutches to be similar.
My question to the group: Is this early engagement of the clutch typical of BMW or was this just this particular dealer stock 325Ci.
Also, any input on comparisons with the '02 A4 1.8t would be welcomed.
Thanks,
--Adam
(lower left pic)
http://www.eurobuyers.com/photos/20023er.jpg
If so, I'm pumped!
(lower left pic)
http://www.eurobuyers.com/photos/20023er.jpg
If so, I'm pumped!
Glad you had fun at the show (I spent the day in GAP getting clothes for the kids and seeing "Monsters, Inc."), am looking forward to hearing more of you reviews on the cars that you saw.
Ncbmw,
Welcome to the club, sounds like you got a fair deal on a nice car, we look forward to hearing your driving impressions.
A2374,
If you ever have the chance to start at the beginning and read all 10,000+ posts, you will see that peppered throughout this topic are folks discussing the E46 clutch. I will help by trying to sum it all up.
Many folks here are very experienced manual transmission drivers (I am on my ninth car with a stick, and >700,000 miles) and of this group, many of us have been surprised by the fact that we had something of a learning curve when we first started driving our cars. The consensus is that to drive an E46 and shift smoothly, you must shift aggressively, even in casual driving. Another thing to be aware of is to be very careful when driving in stop and go rush hour traffic with your music turned up a couple of notches. The E46 cars without exception are smooth and quiet and even moderate volume has caused many of us to Jerk-Stutter-Stutter-Stall, until we learned the nuances of these fine machines. In my case Stevie Ray Vaughan doing “The Sky Is Crying” proved to be my downfall. After several jerky starts and REAL bad shifts, I finally stalled my 328i on the New York Throughway just west of the Tappan Zee Bridge during an evening rush hour (very embarrassing), my first stall since the late 1970’s. I was forced to listen to “News Radio” for a couple of weeks until I learned to “FEEL” the engine through the shifter.
In the final analysis, I have not heard even a single complaint about the clutch and shifter action from anyone who had spent a couple of weeks getting used to the lay of the land.
Good luck, we will hear from you soon.
Best Regards,
Shipo
As for the 325vs A4 1.8T, I really liked the A4, but I'm leaning toward the 325 because I LOVE the smooth in-line 6 and liked the weight distribution better (it made it more fun to drive). You really can't go wrong with either one!
So far I beleive the A4 offers more in terms of the amenities standard and optioned out to a reasonable price. I test drove it twice and am impressed with the handling ability. Ride was firm and controlled. 1.8t makes a satisfying sound when you get it going thanks to the turbo. Its shifter was especially to my liking. The clutch path was short and its shifter has short thows. Thing is built like a tank, very impressive fit and trim.
The 325i accelerated better and had more comfortable seats. I also think the smooth curves of the interior on the 325 is more pleasing to me than the a4. Leather is also not an option on the A4 ('leatherette'). Steering seems a little too easy. I like the feel of heavier steering. And as to my earlier post, the clutch too me has a rather long travel path and seems to engage early, making stop and go traffic tiresome (2nd gear starts possible?).
Still going back and forth on this decision but its coming down to quattro, inline 6, clutch, leather, dual climate control (marriage saver), and price.
Mulawyer, i'm in the Raleigh, NC area (former NY'er). Milwaukee would be too cold for me and too far away from the beach. Don't know how I survived my college years in upstate NY winter!!
And thanks for the quick replies. Keep em coming!!
--Adam
I don't own a 3er, but find this forum a great place because of the informed discussion of dynamics and engineering.
you are correct, adaptive logic has become part of the arsenal of the programmer these days for cars...
tars/wheels - to the person who asked about 18" wheels... regardless of what you choose to do, you should attempt to keep the overall diameter as close as possible to original... also, keep in mind that your car will handle like a stinkin' dog (compared to the way it does now), if you do not buy very expensive ones (and past 17", they get VERY EXPENSIVE)... you'd be surprised what an extra 10 pounds of unsprung weight at every corner does to your handling...
-Chris
i will not get sucked into the snow tire debate
i will not get sucked into the snow tire debate
i will not get sucked into the snow tire debate
That is the look that they get in Germany, it is the M II Aerodynamic package. In the US it is the same as last years M package. A little less agressive, but much better looking then the new 2002 front end. Smaller air dam and smaller fog light openings.
I am not the most knowledgeable on this topic, but I noticed he was pretty 'anti-cai'. I know the cai I installed (ECIS) utilizes a heat shield, and does NOT sit down by the front bumper. It does not appear to be a major change structurally, and the heat shield does seem to be effective in keeping out the hotter engine air.
As for the other upgrades, I agree with his comments. The strut brace one would do mainly for cosmetic reasons, the chip upgrade does little for the e46 model (and I think Dinan even admits that), the suspension upgrade is unnecessary for people with SP, and the exhaust upgrade benefit is minimal...(All IMHO, of course)
Again, great write-up. Thanks for the link.
Curious....did you check into the Escort 8500? I can get a pretty good deal on one (through a local promo), so I was thinking about getting it for the wife. I also noticed the 8500 "out-performed" the V1 in a couple of detector tests.
2) solid strut braces work. that being said, cross-brace would be a better "first mod".
3) oh, there's a difference between the dinan suspension kit and the oem sp.
fwiw, dinan wouldn't stay in business long if they were lying about their suppliers (as the person who put that page up is seeming to imply).
-Chris
1) "and the heat shield does seem to be effective in keeping out the hotter engine air"... how would you know?
checked the temperature in the engine compartment, and compared it to the temp in the heat shield. Heat shield temp was cooler.
I agree about installing it down low for optimum performance, but with all the rain we get in Houston, I did not consider this an option.
2) solid strut braces work. that being said, cross-brace would be a better "first mod".
Thanks for the tip on cross-braces. Did not know there were different types of braces. I will check it out.
3) oh, there's a difference between the dinan suspension kit and the oem sp.
I figured there would be a difference btwn the Dinan susp. and the oem sp, I just 1) didn't know what the benefits would be, 2) I didn't think my car could be lowered much more w/o causing problems, and 3) can't afford the mod.
fwiw, dinan wouldn't stay in business long if they were lying about their suppliers (as the person who put that page up is seeming to imply).
I agree with your statement. I discounted the comments about Dinan's suppliers, and was more interested with his experiences with the various mods.
2) looking around a little bit, i haven't seen anyone selling the x-brace for the e46 yet, but they will, as it's a standard part for the m3 e46 (as it was for the e36 m3 starting my95, as well as the convertibles). my "guess" is is that the one from the m3 e46 will bolt right on to a regular 3er. the "old" one was a m motorsports part, i'm "guessing" again that the new one will be as well.
3) lol... you'd be surprised how many mods "don't make a difference" when you can't afford them...
-Chris
The V1 might protect you against regular radar but won't do jack against laser.
I also think that radar detectors give more false security than security because any well hidden cop around a curb or over the ridge can snag you w/instant on before you can say s**t!
In my case, I have never tested my car in such an environment as to be able to offer an opinion, but, my gut tells me that this guy only has part of the facts correct.
Does anybody know if Div2 is still around (or how to get in touch with him if he is not)? I seem to remember (from 3 years ago) that he was very involved with BMWCCA and did a lot of racing; I would love to get his take on this as well.
Best Regards,
Shipo
No, I didn't check into the Escort 8500. I did a lot of research and it seems that the BEL, the Escort 8500, and the V1 are very close detection-wise but the V1 has the best rear detection. In addition, I really love the directional arrows and the boogey counter in the V1, as well as the concealed display. Let me give you an example why they make a difference: there's a spot on the Masspike that always generates a false alarm. I have known it for a while and typically ignore it. This morning, the boogey counter should 2 radars instead of the typical one in that spot. I slowed down and sure enough, there was a speed trap. I would not have known that with any other radar detector - the counter made all the difference. Also, I was just about to switch from the middle lane to the fast lane when I saw a cruiser that had snuck up about 1/4 mile behind me and was hunting for a catch. I stayed in the middle lane till he pulled over to the side a couple of minutes later. My radar detector went off immediately - that's how I knew that he had turned on the radar and was waiting to catch some of the cars behind me. The directional arrows and the counter are worth the money. I had not used a radar detector for at least 6-7 years because the one that I had used back then was really bad. The V1 has changed my opinion on radar detectors altogether. The radar detector is still just a supplement to your senses but a very good one and it comes handy where your senses may otherwise fail.
(Or maybe ccotenj can do it now?).
Take care, Mark
I have noticed myself that my cars with ultra high performance tires were very sticky out of the factory, especially in summer time, but became less so as time went on. The opposite is true for my cars with all weather tires. I have to keep cornering,braking, and accelerating hard to wear them in. Poor me
The tread pattern my even effect "revulcanization". I would think the closer to slicks, the more heat, as a result of more grip, which would accelerate the process. Hence very soft smooth tires may tend to experience the most rapid and intense "revulcanization".
Best Regards,
Shipo
hint: you can probably guess what i think as far as street tires go, if i tell you that my "bs meter" is off the scale...
for "real" racing tires, it would seem that "scuffing in" (or putting them through a heat cycle) would cause them to wear more consistently...
-Chris
Are you VERY sure that the stiffer suspension hasn't been made standard on the 325i? I read an article in Automobile or C&D, can't remember which, that implied that the suspension has been made stiffer on ALL 3-series made after March 2001. You can't believe everything you read, though. I'd really like to be sure, because it might affect whether or not I get SP. I can live without the tires, but I don't think I want the softer suspension.
Other than the suspension and 17" wheels w/performance tires, what else is included in the SP that affects handling? This could be critical to my buying decision.
Is your BSoMeter redlining because of q45man's statement that tires are worthless after a single summer season, or because my gut instinct is to disbelieve him (to put it mildly)?
Best Regards,
Shipo
Best Regards,
Shipo
Someone will correct me if I'm wrong but you could have read about the steering which was stiffened on the 3series around that time. The early production had the lighter steering which several of the people here have had retro-fitted. I believe the steering was made heavier starting April/May.